Ti: You are in this category Fe: It sucks to be you Te: I can fix it Fi: ??? You're a good person, I'll stick with you?

[Nico1e]

Warning: This description is horribly, horribly biased towards Te! I actually would like to get more feedback from people from other points of view.

I'm struggling to describe the Ti/Fe and Te/Fi agendas in my own words. I don't mean the 'hidden agendas,' just agendas in general. This will all be from a Te-biased point of view, but still, I want to know if these descriptions resonate with anyone, or if anyone can add to them.

Ti: You are in this category. Tell it like it is. You are quadriplegic, gay, ugly, stupid, dying of cancer, whatever. You are stuck in that category. That's the way it is. This is a static, long-lasting category that you can't easily get out of.

Fe: That sucks! I hate being quadriplegic, gay, ugly, etc, etc. I accept that category is correct. I accept that it's unchangeable. That truly is how it is. All that remains is to just express how badly it sucks. That's all I can do. I can't fix it or change it.

Te: It doesn't have to be that way! I can fix it. It does suck, but I will cure your cancer, make you straight again (yes, I'm joking by the way, even *I* don't try to 'cure' everything, and I don't try to cure gayness, but I'm saying this just to fit with the 'Te' spirit that I'm trying to define here), make you some robot legs so you can walk again, give you a makeover, etc. That category is only temporary, not permanent. It's broken, but it can be fixed. You are *not* stuck in a permanent category. You are not doomed.

Fi: ??? I'm having a hard time verbalizing this one. What does Fi do in response to Te? I can see how Ti says 'You're in that category' and Fe responds with 'It sucks to be in that category.' But how does Fi respond to Te? 'You're a good person. I'll stick with the person who knows how to fix things.' Is that how Fi sees Te? Fi: You're a good person. That's a static attribute. It's who you are. I'll stick with you, I'll love you no matter what, because of who you are. Your goodness doesn't change much, or if it does, it only changes slowly. Does that sound like Fi?

Fe: The situation is bad. I can't fix it. Therefore I'll just express my feelings about it.

Te: Don't express feelings prematurely - it's fixable. Keep trying and trying to find ways to fix it. You're not stuck in a bad situation. It's not necessary to feel any emotions at all, until and unless we're absolutely sure that the situation is un-fixable. (Yes, this is Te-biased and written by me from my point of view, I realize that.) So for me personally, for instance, I try not to express feelings about a situation until it's absolutely obvious that there's no solution, no fix, and there isn't going to be one - for instance, death. I'm not going to try to fix death. There's nothing to do about it - it sucks to be us - so now is the appropriate time to feel feelings, and express them, after someone dies.

Te has weakness of Fe: I would love to express a feeling, however when I do, I can't get anyone else to go along with it. So over the years I stopped trying to say 'It sucks to be me! Look at how badly it sucks to be me! I'm in this category and I hate it!' Whenever my life sucks, I just keep quiet about it (and write a blog). But if I had great strength in Fe, I would say to people 'This is what's wrong with my life, that sucks, feel it along with me, and we'll all agree about how bad this sucks!' That is a weakness of Fe. People respond with, 'Eh, that's pathetic,' or 'Stop complaining' or something of that sort. Or they just seem indifferent, and don't care and don't respond enough. Or else I am more focused on trying and trying and trying to fix it, endlessly, even when I can't.

Fi: Why isn't Fi attracted to Ti? What is it about Ti that Fi doesn't like? Ti: Tell it like it is. You're in that category - you're quadriplegic. That's bad. But Fi says: You're still a good person, I'm loyal to you, even if you're quadriplegic. Fi somehow becomes attracted to Te instead.

Anyone able to explain this from the other points of view? How does your type of thinking/feeling respond to the feeling/thinking that you find attractive in others?

[Beautiful sky]

Fi is emotional crusaders for the right cause; let me play out a pharmacy visit with my boyfriend from yesterday.

I go up to get my medicine and the register tells me that the pharmacy is closed when just two days ago they said they were open to 10pm; the register clerk corrected that and said that was only during weekdays; I became impassioned, speaking as though things were unfair; I said things with a very concerned voice, "how can they do this to people who need their medication; don't they know that they shouldn't sell those pills back there? I've already [replaying past accounts is part of FiNe] had to go through s slew of bureaucracy to get them, like swiping my driver's license card and such, but you guys just don't get that." I was on the verge of crying, of anger, of all sorts of emotions. Static impressions are "You look good." "I love how this tastes." Fi has elements of judgement of right and wrong and good and bad.

[d1ffe7]

What you said sounds about right. It's kind of hard to put it in terms of how single IEs respond to each other, isolating them from their other ego function.

The way I look at it is that the difference is that the introverted rational functions both draw conclusions. Usually different ones. Te is a reliable source of information to Fi, while Ti would simply be full of opinions. Ti would say "it's in this category" and be fairly sure of it, but Fi may categorize it in a different way.

[WVBRY]

Well you are the one saying people are stuck in the category of Ti and Fe are "stuck in their categories you stick them into" - not entirely untrue since Ti is places the logical object above the subject hence the subject is a slave to what they are thinking but you are also sticking them in a category so wouldnt that be an example of using Ti?

In any case if Ti is a slave, so is a Fi, excpet in this case to attitudes. They cant change the emotions of the people around them so they submit themselves to what others are feeling and cant extend beyond that. Wow, this all depressing. Lets look at the positive: Te can change "things" while Fe is not subject to others attitudes. Thats how I look at the positive...

[Atlast]

I feel like the OP could do with relating the same situations as pointed out in Ti and Fe to Fi and Te. They seem to go into different directions; maybe describing the differing perspective on the same phenomena would give us a better understanding of what you're saying about them?

[Cat King Cole]

Why doesn't Fi like Ti? For me, wants to jump to conclusions and put people in immutable categories too quickly. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt and see them for basically good people and understand why they are the way they are (but that might have a fair bit of in it). In terms of the conflict, jumps to conclusions, lives in magic fairy land. I'll report back after running some of my LII friends through some hypotheticals.

I don't think it's satisfactory to say "Fi likes Te because it's not Ti", though?

[Park]

Haha, I'm liking this stuff.

[Beautiful sky]

What you said sounds about right. It's kind of hard to put it in terms of how single IEs respond to each other, isolating them from their other ego function.

The way I look at it is that the difference is that the introverted rational functions both draw conclusions. Usually different ones. Te is a reliable source of information to Fi, while Ti would simply be full of opinions. Ti would say "it's in this category" and be fairly sure of it, but Fi may categorize it in a different way.

I wouldn't say that Te is reliable source of information to me, but that Te makes conclusions about things, logical conclusions about what dynamics they observe. That is what I need. I can get any information I want from anywhere and there are information I am interested in that Te types just aren't; for example, I'm interested in information concerning genealogy, health and science, medicine, etc and unless Te studies that specifically, they are of no help to me because Te is driven to be competent in their own area of study. An example of a conclusion I would like from Te, describing the external activities of objects (being that I'm an introvert, I have a very hard time keeping track of objects/people and their purpose where they should go, what they should do, etc); I ask my boyfriend something along the lines of "honey, I don't understand why people don't get that our economy isn't going to improve without tax increases." He says, " They are responding emotionally not logically. People don't understand that we need revenue to come in." They make conclusive statements and that's what I need. Te offers up too much information, most of which I have a very very hard time digesting because it's too detailed, hence my boyfriend saying to me "You're not detail oriented." This is also true of TeNi. Te makes me feel comfortable that some things are the way they are in saying, "that's how it is" or "that's how I am." The factual information that these types collect is to come to logical conclusions about things and these are what they can trust, not what they feel because their feelings are unreliable, they are not objects to behold, so to say. They give voice to my thoughts. I look for them to clarify things for me so I ask them for definitions of things all the time. But definitions in context to what I am trying to say and don't know how because what I'm really doing is feeling something that I need words for.

[munenori2]

Ti: You are in this category. Tell it like it is. You are quadriplegic, gay, ugly, stupid, dying of cancer, whatever. You are stuck in that category. That's the way it is. This is a static, long-lasting category that you can't easily get out of.

Fe: That sucks! I hate being quadriplegic, gay, ugly, etc, etc. I accept that category is correct. I accept that it's unchangeable. That truly is how it is. All that remains is to just express how badly it sucks. That's all I can do. I can't fix it or change it.

Te: It doesn't have to be that way! I can fix it. It does suck, but I will cure your cancer, make you straight again (yes, I'm joking by the way, even *I* don't try to 'cure' everything, and I don't try to cure gayness, but I'm saying this just to fit with the 'Te' spirit that I'm trying to define here), make you some robot legs so you can walk again, give you a makeover, etc. That category is only temporary, not permanent. It's broken, but it can be fixed. You are *not* stuck in a permanent category. You are not doomed.

Fi: ??? I'm having a hard time verbalizing this one. What does Fi do in response to Te? I can see how Ti says 'You're in that category' and Fe responds with 'It sucks to be in that category.' But how does Fi respond to Te? 'You're a good person. I'll stick with the person who knows how to fix things.' Is that how Fi sees Te? Fi: You're a good person. That's a static attribute. It's who you are. I'll stick with you, I'll love you no matter what, because of who you are. Your goodness doesn't change much, or if it does, it only changes slowly. Does that sound like Fi?

[krieger]

i don't recognize much of this at all. it's pretty common for Te types to state facts in a matter-of-factly way as if saying "it's just like that, deal with it". also an attitude along lines of "anything can be changed, just watch me" is pretty commonly found among betas. many of the most typical "change agents" throughout history have been betas.

Karl Marx: "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it".

he certainly wasn't a Te-valuing type.

[InkStrider]

Ti: You are in this category. Tell it like it is. You are quadriplegic, gay, ugly, stupid, dying of cancer, whatever. You are stuck in that category. That's the way it is. This is a static, long-lasting category that you can't easily get out of.

Fe: That sucks! I hate being quadriplegic, gay, ugly, etc, etc. I accept that category is correct. I accept that it's unchangeable. That truly is how it is. All that remains is to just express how badly it sucks. That's all I can do. I can't fix it or change it.

Te: It doesn't have to be that way! I can fix it. It does suck, but I will cure your cancer, make you straight again (yes, I'm joking by the way, even *I* don't try to 'cure' everything, and I don't try to cure gayness, but I'm saying this just to fit with the 'Te' spirit that I'm trying to define here), make you some robot legs so you can walk again, give you a makeover, etc. That category is only temporary, not permanent. It's broken, but it can be fixed. You are *not* stuck in a permanent category. You are not doomed.

Fi: ??? I'm having a hard time verbalizing this one. What does Fi do in response to Te? I can see how Ti says 'You're in that category' and Fe responds with 'It sucks to be in that category.' But how does Fi respond to Te? 'You're a good person. I'll stick with the person who knows how to fix things.' Is that how Fi sees Te? Fi: You're a good person. That's a static attribute. It's who you are. I'll stick with you, I'll love you no matter what, because of who you are. Your goodness doesn't change much, or if it does, it only changes slowly. Does that sound like Fi?

Fe: The situation is bad. I can't fix it. Therefore I'll just express my feelings about it.

Te: Don't express feelings prematurely - it's fixable. Keep trying and trying to find ways to fix it. You're not stuck in a bad situation. It's not necessary to feel any emotions at all, until and unless we're absolutely sure that the situation is un-fixable. (Yes, this is Te-biased and written by me from my point of view, I realize that.) So for me personally, for instance, I try not to express feelings about a situation until it's absolutely obvious that there's no solution, no fix, and there isn't going to be one - for instance, death. I'm not going to try to fix death. There's nothing to do about it - it sucks to be us - so now is the appropriate time to feel feelings, and express them, after someone dies.

Te has weakness of Fe: I would love to express a feeling, however when I do, I can't get anyone else to go along with it. So over the years I stopped trying to say 'It sucks to be me! Look at how badly it sucks to be me! I'm in this category and I hate it!' Whenever my life sucks, I just keep quiet about it (and write a blog). But if I had great strength in Fe, I would say to people 'This is what's wrong with my life, that sucks, feel it along with me, and we'll all agree about how bad this sucks!' That is a weakness of Fe. People respond with, 'Eh, that's pathetic,' or 'Stop complaining' or something of that sort. Or they just seem indifferent, and don't care and don't respond enough. Or else I am more focused on trying and trying and trying to fix it, endlessly, even when I can't.

Fi: Why isn't Fi attracted to Ti? What is it about Ti that Fi doesn't like? Ti: Tell it like it is. You're in that category - you're quadriplegic. That's bad. But Fi says: You're still a good person, I'm loyal to you, even if you're quadriplegic. Fi somehow becomes attracted to Te instead.

Anyone able to explain this from the other points of view? How does your type of thinking/feeling respond to the feeling/thinking that you find attractive in others?

All of these are overly simplistic and a propagation of the function stereotypes.

[Aquagraph]

All of these are overly simplistic and a propagation of the function stereotypes.

And the poster is very aware of it. Isn't it practical to use extremes as an example how they manifest?

[Gilly]

lmfao @ the Fi kid being handicapped

OP is unforgivably biased.

[Radio]

Ti: You are in this category. Tell it like it is. You are quadriplegic, gay, ugly, stupid, dying of cancer, whatever. You are stuck in that category. That's the way it is. This is a static, long-lasting category that you can't easily get out of.

Beta Ti > Alpha Ti

Fe: That sucks! I hate being quadriplegic, gay, ugly, etc, etc. I accept that category is correct. I accept that it's unchangeable. That truly is how it is. All that remains is to just express how badly it sucks. That's all I can do. I can't fix it or change it.

Holy Beta NF Batman!

Te: It doesn't have to be that way! I can fix it. It does suck, but I will cure your cancer, make you straight again (yes, I'm joking by the way, even *I* don't try to 'cure' everything, and I don't try to cure gayness, but I'm saying this just to fit with the 'Te' spirit that I'm trying to define here), make you some robot legs so you can walk again, give you a makeover, etc. That category is only temporary, not permanent. It's broken, but it can be fixed. You are *not* stuck in a permanent category. You are not doomed.

Fi: ??? I'm having a hard time verbalizing this one. What does Fi do in response to Te? I can see how Ti says 'You're in that category' and Fe responds with 'It sucks to be in that category.' But how does Fi respond to Te? 'You're a good person. I'll stick with the person who knows how to fix things.' Is that how Fi sees Te? Fi: You're a good person. That's a static attribute. It's who you are. I'll stick with you, I'll love you no matter what, because of who you are. Your goodness doesn't change much, or if it does, it only changes slowly. Does that sound like Fi?

This is a bit exaggerated, but I think you're essentially attempting to describe Delta by contrasting it with Beta's worst traits. Except there are two more quadras and the elements manifest differently for those.

[Nico1e]

Fi is emotional crusaders for the right cause; let me play out a pharmacy visit with my boyfriend from yesterday.

I go up to get my medicine and the register tells me that the pharmacy is closed when just two days ago they said they were open to 10pm; the register clerk corrected that and said that was only during weekdays; I became impassioned, speaking as though things were unfair; I said things with a very concerned voice, "how can they do this to people who need their medication; don't they know that they shouldn't sell those pills back there? I've already [replaying past accounts is part of FiNe] had to go through s slew of bureaucracy to get them, like swiping my driver's license card and such, but you guys just don't get that." I was on the verge of crying, of anger, of all sorts of emotions. Static impressions are "You look good." "I love how this tastes." Fi has elements of judgement of right and wrong and good and bad.

yeah, and actually that is a big deal because people go into withdrawal when they don't have their medicines fast enough. I never really thought about that before.

In this I see:
'There is a real danger from not having medicine'
'There shouldn't be a rule that prevents people from getting what they need in an emergency'
'The pharmacy should be more oriented to the needs of the customers'

[Nico1e]

Beta Ti > Alpha Ti



Holy Beta NF Batman!



This is a bit exaggerated, but I think you're essentially attempting to describe Delta by contrasting it with Beta's worst traits. Except there are two more quadras and the elements manifest differently for those.

It was, actually, sort of emphasizing beta versus delta. In fact now that I've been reading about the 'plus and minus signs' that I keep mentioning again and again, I could rewrite this whole thing differently. It was just something that was going through my mind which I expressed in my own words in a sloppy way.

[Nico1e]

lmfao @ the Fi kid being handicapped

OP is unforgivably biased.

Yeah, it was more like 'Fat, bald, quadriplegic, stupid, dying of cancer, gay, ugly, poor, unemployed,' or something like that. I kept adding more and more epithets that I thought of later on, more of the 'I don't want to be in this category' categories.

[Jonathan]

Ti: You are in this category. Fe: It sucks to be you. Te: I can fix it. Fi: ??? You're a good person, I'll stick with you?

This is pretty good. For those who thinks it's too stereotyped....well it's certainly not any more stereotyped than Augusta. This is what Socionics is, unless you just have blank descriptions for everything, to avoid offending anyone.

I like the emphasis on "fixing" for Te...seems a lot better than "business logic." This brings out the differences quite well...Ti being a sort of clinical evaluation of reality, whereas Fi is a more moralistic one; and according to the normative classifications of Fi comes Te's emphasis on specific ways of "fixing" things.

One subtlety is that Fe types aren't just whiners; they also have a way of fixing things or making them better; but usually it's less focused and specific than Te...or may be seen as more holistic....follow this movement, have this attitude. But overall, Ti/Fe is sort of like here's how it is and here's how I feel about it, whereas Fi/Te is like here's what's right/wrong with the way things are, and so here's the strategy to fix it and make it right.

One other small point is that Ti's difference with Fi isn't so much that Ti doesn't believe people can change (in fact they're equally "static"); it's really the descriptive vs. normative distinction. Ti categorizes things more "clinically." A common source of conflict may be for someone to infer a normative element to Ti's classifications and hence to get offended by them.

[DividedsGhost]

Here's another school of thought on the matter:

Ti: You are wrong and your presence is annoying.
Fe: People like me and I know why no one likes you.
Te: I know everything and I will fix you if you think otherwise.
Fi: I'm right and I don't like your behavior.

[Absurd]

Two pints of lager, please.

[Beautiful sky]

yeah, and actually that is a big deal because people go into withdrawal when they don't have their medicines fast enough. I never really thought about that before.

In this I see:
'There is a real danger from not having medicine'
'There shouldn't be a rule that prevents people from getting what they need in an emergency'
'The pharmacy should be more oriented to the needs of the customers'

Exactly.

[WVBRY]

Here's another school of thought on the matter:

Ti: You are wrong and your presence is annoying.
Fe: People like me and I know why no one likes you.
Te: I know everything and I will fix you if you think otherwise.
Fi: I'm right and I don't like your behavior.

Please tell me you're joking.

[Aquagraph]

Yeah. It's all Te was for. Just getting all kinds of shit fixed.

[InkStrider]

This is pretty good. For those who thinks it's too stereotyped....well it's certainly not any more stereotyped than Augusta. This is what Socionics is, unless you just have blank descriptions for everything, to avoid offending anyone.

One same function can manifest differently according to quadra and type. If you are a beginner to the theory, I suppose it *may* be useful as a rough guide. Even so, I could foresee many problems in its use.

Ti: You are in this category. Tell it like it is. You are quadriplegic, gay, ugly, stupid, dying of cancer, whatever. You are stuck in that category. That's the way it is. This is a static, long-lasting category that you can't easily get out of.

Doesn't Fi do this as well? X is an asshole, made me feel Y way. Fi "judgmentalism" to put it stereotypically. Doesn't Fi tell it the way it is too? Are Fi types more inclined to play games than Fe? Couldn't Fi be called a static, long-lasting category which is placed on particular individuals as well?

Fe: That sucks! I hate being quadriplegic, gay, ugly, etc, etc. I accept that category is correct. I accept that it's unchangeable. That truly is how it is. All that remains is to just express how badly it sucks. That's all I can do. I can't fix it or change it.

I would think that such a defeatist attitude is not typical of Fe types, especially not in Beta? You make it sound as if all they do is sit and whine.

Te: It doesn't have to be that way! I can fix it. It does suck, but I will cure your cancer, make you straight again (yes, I'm joking by the way, even *I* don't try to 'cure' everything, and I don't try to cure gayness, but I'm saying this just to fit with the 'Te' spirit that I'm trying to define here), make you some robot legs so you can walk again, give you a makeover, etc. That category is only temporary, not permanent. It's broken, but it can be fixed. You are *not* stuck in a permanent category. You are not doomed.

This, I can relate to. Still, thinking is one matter and acting another? This can also be called optimism, or problem-solving. All types, according to circumstance can be optimistic or to problem solve.

Fi: You're a good person. That's a static attribute. It's who you are. I'll stick with you, I'll love you no matter what, because of who you are. Your goodness doesn't change much, or if it does, it only changes slowly. Does that sound like Fi?

That is what I would wish for, yes. Still, it is unreasonable to not expect others to treat you like an asshole when you act like one. It sounds weird that Ti types would stop sticking to/loving another simply because they've changed "categories"? Where is their passion tied to then? The category or the person?

[Beautiful sky]

The same function manifests by how it's judged or conditioned.

Actually FiNe is:

Ne, being a perceptive sense, does not judge or define exactly what is good or not and why. It just serves to gather outside information. I think Ne has the capability of removing people from their previous judgements because they come to empathize with the person and try to understand them.

"He make me feel terrible."

The object followed by what feeling is derived from it for the subjective interpretation.

or


"It's good."

Again, object and feeling judgement.

or

"I like him."

My subject, I, likes -a feeling judgment, the object.

[krieger]

i think it could make sense to view Fe as a form of "social fixing", i.e. instead of tackling the problem hands-on in a direct way the person instead emotively appeals to people around them to solve the problem in a coordinated way.

[Beautiful sky]

i think it could make sense to view Fe as a form of "social fixing", i.e. instead of tackling the problem hands-on in a direct way the person instead emotively appeals to people around them to solve the problem in a coordinated way.

Yes, because society is an external function from which Feeling may derive it's judgement.