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Thread: The limbo between Enneagram types 4w5 and 5w4

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    Default The limbo between Enneagram types 4w5 and 5w4

    I've read so many different perspectives on this particular typing conundrum that my head is spinning and the answer does not appear to be found within it. As an ISTp I can only guess that all this talk about "emotion" and "feeling" in enneatype 4 would point to my being a definite 5 with a little subwing of 4 (being as how I have Fe as my PoLR).

    Is this at all correct or does it point to the whole Fe is not just emotion and feeling thing that I probably gloss over due to it being my PoLR (lol).

    Feel free to vent about the 4w5 / 5w4 limbo in general or post pictures of your mom / veggie burger recipes. I'm resigned to getting nowhere with this.
    / ISTp / SLI / 5w4 / 594 / sp/sx
    / Lunar 12-egram /

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    I'm likely also a Fe-PoLR and somehow in this limbo. Though in my case I used to be about certain of 5w4 and now I'm fairly convinced of being a 4w5.

    For me, the deal-breaker is whether you look at behavioural traits alone - which are, after all, supposed to be the reliable indicator of type - or also deeper, into mindset, ways of paying attention, internal focus. In the first case, shy, intellectual (not necessarily the same as intelligent, disclaimer for those of you who love any excuse to bitch), introverted people are 5s, while 4s are drama queens and artists. If you will consider the second, 5s are characterized by detachment from their own emotions, being threatened by intrusion and especially imposition on their will. 4s, on the other hand, maintain their inner image, feel flawed compared to others and so adjust - even their emotions - to it.

    As long as I thought of Enneagram as shallow and failing to grasp personality, I could self-type as 5 and discard most descriptions that went deeper and didn't work at all as taking the theory too far, where it no longer applied and became nothing but a baseless extrapolations of behaviour on the state of mind. Realizing I was likely a 4 made me see Enneagram as deeper than that; the biggest milestone was actually considering it, since when I did, I actually bothered to ask others about their impressions. Especially finding other 5s had never had issues like I did made it clear I was not one. So I say, if you don't relate to descriptions of your type despite superficial similarities, it's a hint you might need to reconsider.

    How does it work with Fe-PoLR... well, I'm not 100% certain about being that, but I go with it anyway. I wouldn't consider it impossible in either case, I suppose. I don't think 4s focus on emotion and feeling can be undervalued, as it seems an inherent part of this enneatype to feel strongly and even more so, intensify their feelings through imagination (as opposed to 5s less emotionally intense spaced-outedness, which is the impression I gained discussing this with actual 5s, again). I don't believe it's inconsistent with Fe-PoLR. Open emotional expression is less obvious... I believe it's linked to the type, but not necessarily in a way that is always obvious. The thing is, 4s live a self-image, though in a different way than 3s or 2s, and it dictates their expression - no fixed way across the type, and if there were, wouldn't they go against it?

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    Thank you very much - I will look at these this evening!!!
    / ISTp / SLI / 5w4 / 594 / sp/sx
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    I've had the same confusion myself, but eventually decided that neither one fits me that well. If you search the forums, you'll probably find some discussions about it, though I've mostly talked to people privately about the enneagram.


    Btw, if E2 is the type you identify the least with, then you're my enneagram identical as well.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Creepy-pokeball

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    I will cover the entire 5 spectrum with ISTjs for you. Sorry, I only know a few ISTp 5 types, like Stephen Colbert.



    Mat Kearney ISTj -- 4w5



    Sam Worthington -- ISTj 5w4



    Clive Owen --INTj 5w6 (sorry, I dont know any celeb ISTj 5w6 well so this is a decent substitution)



    Josh Turner -- ISTj 6w5

    This spectrum should be helpful in seeing the overall pattern of the 5 in one sociotype. I wish I had more for ISTp.
    Last edited by pokeball; 10-08-2011 at 09:39 AM. Reason: oops, lol.

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    Thank you for the posts. The 4 and the 5 support each other closely for me. I am strongly knowledge seeking but I feel it can be found through doing art and exploring what comes out of that process and the resultant artwork. 5w4 "feels wrong" and for the moment I feel that when something "feels wrong" after I have explored all knowledge bases, I then need to explore the art side of it further until I feel like I have some sort of epiphany / emotional moment. Whether that will point to 4w5 or 5w4, or whether it already DOES point to one of those, I don't know. Whatevs! : )

    Parkster - nope, 2 is in the middle somewhere for me. I'm not very strong on 8 per my last test... but these things seem to vary
    / ISTp / SLI / 5w4 / 594 / sp/sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by meals View Post
    Thank you for the posts. The 4 and the 5 support each other closely for me. I am strongly knowledge seeking but I feel it can be found through doing art and exploring what comes out of that process and the resultant artwork. 5w4 "feels wrong" and for the moment I feel that when something "feels wrong" after I have explored all knowledge bases, I then need to explore the art side of it further until I feel like I have some sort of epiphany / emotional moment. Whether that will point to 4w5 or 5w4, or whether it already DOES point to one of those, I don't know. Whatevs! : )
    I'm not saying I'm an expert on this or whatever, but did you watch those videos or considered aspects such as image triad vs head triad? That's where the crux of the matter lies. Doing art isn't enough to type by itself I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I'm not saying I'm an expert on this or whatever, but did you watch those videos or considered aspects such as image triad vs head triad? That's where the crux of the matter lies. Doing art isn't enough to type by itself I think.
    I meant to look at the videos but I wasn't able to that evening and then forgot until now they appear to have disappeared! I DO have to look into triads... They sounded confusing so I guess I was ignoring them... Indeed re: the art.
    / ISTp / SLI / 5w4 / 594 / sp/sx
    / Lunar 12-egram /

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    Quote Originally Posted by meals View Post
    I meant to look at the videos but I wasn't able to that evening and then forgot until now they appear to have disappeared! I DO have to look into triads... They sounded confusing so I guess I was ignoring them... Indeed re: the art.
    Oh I forgot k0rp had his posts deleted. Here are the links he posted:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-pay-attention




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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss
    I'm likely also a Fe-PoLR and somehow in this limbo. Though in my case I used to be about certain of 5w4 and now I'm fairly convinced of being a 4w5.

    For me, the deal-breaker is whether you look at behavioural traits alone - which are, after all, supposed to be the reliable indicator of type - or also deeper, into mindset, ways of paying attention, internal focus. In the first case, shy, intellectual (not necessarily the same as intelligent, disclaimer for those of you who love any excuse to bitch), introverted people are 5s, while 4s are drama queens and artists. If you will consider the second, 5s are characterized by detachment from their own emotions, being threatened by intrusion and especially imposition on their will. 4s, on the other hand, maintain their inner image, feel flawed compared to others and so adjust - even their emotions - to it.

    As long as I thought of Enneagram as shallow and failing to grasp personality, I could self-type as 5 and discard most descriptions that went deeper and didn't work at all as taking the theory too far, where it no longer applied and became nothing but a baseless extrapolations of behaviour on the state of mind. Realizing I was likely a 4 made me see Enneagram as deeper than that; the biggest milestone was actually considering it, since when I did, I actually bothered to ask others about their impressions. Especially finding other 5s had never had issues like I did made it clear I was not one. So I say, if you don't relate to descriptions of your type despite superficial similarities, it's a hint you might need to reconsider.

    How does it work with Fe-PoLR... well, I'm not 100% certain about being that, but I go with it anyway. I wouldn't consider it impossible in either case, I suppose. I don't think 4s focus on emotion and feeling can be undervalued, as it seems an inherent part of this enneatype to feel strongly and even more so, intensify their feelings through imagination (as opposed to 5s less emotionally intense spaced-outedness, which is the impression I gained discussing this with actual 5s, again). I don't believe it's inconsistent with Fe-PoLR. Open emotional expression is less obvious... I believe it's linked to the type, but not necessarily in a way that is always obvious. The thing is, 4s live a self-image, though in a different way than 3s or 2s, and it dictates their expression - no fixed way across the type, and if there were, wouldn't they go against it?
    Hey meal

    Aiss says quite a few interesting things. Let me correlate that to the videos she linked.

    5s have an issue with competency to take action. 'Yea I should do this... no maybe. I don't think so. Wait if I could... nah."
    There is a staggering of action or confidence to act, based on the fear of not being able to meet expectations.
    Also, they are hypersensitive to the expectations to others. "I know those guys want this and this and that from me... but I... I can't do it. I'll just stay away yea."
    For this reason, they seem withdrawn.
    Layers:
    Behaviour: Withdrawn
    Thoughts: Abuse of thinking, or over thinking
    Reason: To consider the course of action
    Fear: Self-preservation against expectations, or abandonment from those whose expectations cannot be met.

    Once again, all these are fundamental 5 issues. If you're a healthy 5, chances are you have solutions to resolve them and are functioning well in the world.


    4s are observers of themselves. They imagine how others view them, and how they look from an outside points of view. Usually, their emotions are based on an idealistic image of how they want to be seen in contrast to how they believe people see them. Because of this, they are confused about their feelings, or they have somewhat a 'pseudo-feeling'. They tend to ignore how they really feel, but focus instead on who they should be. This idealistic image, which they hardly match up to (the dream always rushes forward faster than the dreamer), leads to a position of self-rejection. "I reject my current self because it is not who I want to be". Healthy 4s tend to take steps towards the 'dream-direction', in that they attempt to make themselves who they want to be, or see themselves being, or want to be seen as being. Unhealthy 4s tend to stop at the rejection stage, which may escalate negatively to self-harming behaviours, whether intentional, like cutting themselves, not eating well, stressing themselves out, or unintentional, like missing good opportunities, putting themselves down without realizing, or letting people use them without prior consideration of their own well-being.

    I may not have expressed 4 as succinctly as 5, but that's because I was too lazy to listen to the first half of the 4 video.

    Well, I hope it helped. It's just my understanding and explanation of what I see from the video.

    Aiss, do you tend to relate to 4 more or 5? I don't know you well enough to offer a sound suggestion.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    ^ I said I was likely a 4. By the way, which triad video, if any, did you find most relatable? There's one for gut triad too from this series.

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Oh haha. definitely the gut aiss... but do post it.

    Right. Sooo you reject yourself often?
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    YES I'm clearly of this triad.

    Anger, compensating by being big and strong, felt neglected by adults/superiors/elders around me when young...

    Most likely 8 or 1.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Oh I forgot k0rp had his posts deleted. Here are the links he posted:
    These turned out to be quite useful, as well as a careful study of the two types, four and five. I guess I am a 5 after all. There is just less importance for emotion and image to me than knowledge, if I have to put it simply... I am more likely to explore knowledge and feelings of meaning/meaninglessness in my life than to delve into emotions for more than scattered periods. Also I think my identity is less important than what I know. My awareness of how I come across is secondary to my awareness of other's expectations of me.
    Last edited by meals; 08-20-2012 at 09:20 PM.
    / ISTp / SLI / 5w4 / 594 / sp/sx
    / Lunar 12-egram /

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