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Thread: Identifying INTjs: traits and characteristics of LIIs

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    Joven Erudito89's Avatar
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    Default Identifying INTjs: traits and characteristics of LIIs

    Hi Alphas,
    I'm not sure where to post this, but I'm guessing my question would be better answered in this forum. I would like to know how to identify a LII I have suspicions that my brother is one, but I'm not sure since I'm not close with him. I'll be back online tomorrow with a description of him, since its too late to talk to him now. I just wanted this thread up now before i forget this. I'm going to sleep
    EII, INFj Intuitive subtype (The Teacher)


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    Here's a few
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    i think it depends a lot on what kind of company you find them in. among strangers INTj is really among the more passive and silent types. not in a way that primarily looks "shy" so much as non-committal. to strangers they will typically talk very politely, sometimes in a way that looks excessively fake and not embarrassed about showing that they are just making conversation for the sake of doing so. however, even in such instances they aren't very forthcoming. they don't take much initiative in talking about themselves or asking unconventional questions, mostly playing it safe. an INTj is generally bad at hiding a lack of interest in situations or people.

    in more familiar company they can look very different from this, behaving in avant-garde and even theatrical ways, taking liberties with social conventions and turning situations on their head. the key to the issue is the extent to which they feel showing their Ne side is appropriate and/or feel that the behavior will be met with enthusiasm and positivity (~Fe).

    in situations with a high degree of organization, INTjs are pretty visible as people that focus on constructively furthering the goals of the relevant activities in non-trivial ways, i.e. they raise and articulate the important questions, separating the main issue from the peripheral. they focus on quality rather than quantity where such contributions are concerned.

    another situation where you'll find an extroverted side to INTjs is when you get them to talk about their main interests. it may sound straight forward, but INTjs can really go from being wallflowers to going on tirades and holding long monologues if just the right topic is raised. i'm not 100% sure if Hudson is an INTj, but this is what an enthusiasmized INTj generally looks like:



    otherwise, in conversation they are typical "good listeners" who mainly focus on asking the right questions. this guy (INTj) is an example:


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    Joven Erudito89's Avatar
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    Thank you for those who posted
    After reading labocat's post it really helped me get a picture of what an LII is like. I still haven't been able to talk to my brother yet, so I'm giving myself a deadline for tomorrow to post a description. Please stay tuned for my next post.
    EII, INFj Intuitive subtype (The Teacher)


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    Check your local newspaper listing.

    "We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.".

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Rob View Post
    Check your local newspaper listing.

    That sounds more like an MBTI description than Socionics. In my opinion the MBTI INTJ is like a combination of Socionics LII, ILI, and LIE.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Joven Erudito89's Avatar
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    Alright here is the results from observing my brother:
    He's very quiet
    Enjoys drawing
    Won't choose sides in a fight
    Loves Video games and Anime
    Does not like to get involved into family conflicts
    Can't stand when people try to force him to do things
    Like me he is into eating a healthy diet and rarely eats meat
    Usually in a serious mood, but enjoys when my other brother gets him to laugh.
    Because of his love of video games he is seriously thinking about working in that field

    I don't know if this is enough. I know its not much, but i still haven't been able to talk to my brother yet. Our schedules are so different.
    EII, INFj Intuitive subtype (The Teacher)


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    Sounds like PoLR. LII seems probable.
    "We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.".

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    Joven Erudito89's Avatar
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    Yeah i thought so too.
    I go back and forth between EII and LII because i don't know him that well.
    He's so much quieter than i am. That is why we aren't that close. He is more closer to my brother.
    EII, INFj Intuitive subtype (The Teacher)


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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joven Erudito89 View Post
    Alright here is the results from observing my brother:
    He's very quiet
    Enjoys drawing
    Won't choose sides in a fight
    Loves Video games and Anime
    Does not like to get involved into family conflicts
    Can't stand when people try to force him to do things
    Like me he is into eating a healthy diet and rarely eats meat
    Usually in a serious mood, but enjoys when my other brother gets him to laugh.
    Because of his love of video games he is seriously thinking about working in that field

    I don't know if this is enough. I know its not much, but i still haven't been able to talk to my brother yet. Our schedules are so different.
    Yeah, sounds like Vulnerable Se, like Rob said. Video games and anime are stereotypically "geeky NT" things, which would point toward LII, but it's not enough by itself to rule out EII, since presumably there are some EIIs out there who enjoy those things.

    Does he comment more on whether things are correct or incorrect, logical or illogical, true or false, etc.? Or does he comment more on whether things are good or bad, polite or rude, ethical or unethical, etc.?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Won't choose sides in a fight
    this could be something to focus on. my experience, partly from self-knowledge, is that INTjs don't have all that strong qualms about choosing sides if there is a clear rational case for either position in the argument. that's not really what Se-PoLR is about. although it can mean that the person is less inclined to get involved in the conflict even if they have an opinion on who is "right". so maybe you need to do a little probing on that front. see whether they really don't have an opinion or are just keeping it to themselves.

    He's very quiet
    owing all the way back to the smilexian tradition i tend to view INT types as considerably more "reclusive" than INF types. i think we had a thread a year or so ago in which this was revealed to be a pretty broad consensus on the forum (i.e. that there exists a gradient of social activeness in which INT are at the bottom).

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    Quote Originally Posted by labocat
    INTjs don't have all that strong qualms about choosing sides if there is a clear rational case for either position in the argument. that's not really what Se-PoLR is about. although it can mean that the person is less inclined to get involved in the conflict even if they have an opinion on who is "right".
    I do tend to not side in fights within my family, especially when people start getting loud and shouting. If people are arguing over things in a rational way, I'll tend to side with someone, but if it's some emotional argument or people are generally angry at someone else, I'm rather likely to side with whoever I'm talking to, even if I think they're wrong. Unless they're clearly wrong and being irrational about it, in which case I just won't comment and probably try to avoid the question.
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    Liking to draw doesn't fit very well with an LII, since it's strongly correlated to our inferior function, extroverted sensing. An LII might like the idea of drawing well, but would be far too frustrated by their own incapability at the endeavor to like actually doing it. Have you considered that he might be an SLI? This would explain his reticence to take sides in an argument, since extroverted ethics would be his inferior function, and so he would be quite unsure of himself in any remotely complex or charged social situation. A helpful thing for you to find out would be what exactly he's interested in doing in the videogame industry. If it's programming, he's probably an LII, but if it's game/level design, which combines artistic aspects (introverted sensing), with functional aspects (extroverted logic), SLI makes much better sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    Liking to draw doesn't fit very well with an LII, since it's strongly correlated to our inferior function, extroverted sensing. An LII might like the idea of drawing well, but would be far too frustrated by their own incapability at the endeavor to like actually doing it. Have you considered that he might be an SLI? This would explain his reticence to take sides in an argument, since extroverted ethics would be his inferior function, and so he would be quite unsure of himself in any remotely complex or charged social situation. A helpful thing for you to find out would be what exactly he's interested in doing in the videogame industry. If it's programming, he's probably an LII, but if it's game/level design, which combines artistic aspects (introverted sensing), with functional aspects (extroverted logic), SLI makes much better sense.
    I enjoy drawing and I'm quite good at it. Drawing and reading were my primary occupations during childhood. In my experience, LIIs often at least dabble in art, while Se-Egos like SLE often have no use for it. Thus far, I have not observed any correlation of artistic skill and type.

    Type does seem to affect what kind of art one prefers, however. Si types prefer pleasant, "comfortable" art, Se types lean toward bold, "dangerous" art, Ni types often like strange, abstract art, etc.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    lol, drawing has absolutely no relation to Se. sooner to Si, but probably not that very much either.

    i used to draw a little as a kid, but haven't kept up the skill much as i aged. i tend to lose interest at the point where i've decided what awesome scene i'm going to draw and have to start focusing on the pesky little technicalities of how to make it actually look like that, which it in the end probably won't anyway.

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    Some very general observations.

    - Talkative. They talk a lot about what interests them not just small talk. They're not LOUD though. Not very physical or rough.
    - Modern/ unique style
    - They love gadgets & computer games.
    - Hate people assigning them chores or orders
    - the 6 yr old LII i know makes a big deal about insect bites & minor physical injuries like a splinter... a fear of hurting themselves? cautious
    - OCD tendencies in adulthood. (sometimes)

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Type does seem to affect what kind of art one prefers, however. Si types prefer pleasant, "comfortable" art, Se types lean toward bold, "dangerous" art, Ni types often like strange, abstract art, etc.
    although i agree with the bolded part of your statement, i don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you describe. there are several art styles and themes that i would classify as distinctly Si/Ne themed, yet involve violent and "dark" features:





    i think Si/Ne also invokes a sense of mild absurdity and "breaking the fourth wall" that is usually missing from Si/Ne. the latter pretends to realism and takes itself seriously.

    - Talkative. They talk a lot about what interests them not just small talk. They're not LOUD though. Not very physical or rough.
    i would describe them as opposite to talkative in most contexts, because it's just a very small subset of situations in which they "big talk" manifests, and even in such matters they tend to be on the concise side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labocat View Post
    lol, drawing has absolutely no relation to Se. sooner to Si, but probably not that very much either.
    In order to draw, one has to make bold, sure, physical movements, using . One also has to imagine what one wants to create, which requires . Both these functions are weak in an LII, and in particular is a kind of sore point that tends to frustrate the LII if he tries to exercise it.

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    if you're applying such a loose definition of "bold physical movement" there is pretty much no activity whatsoever that a Se PoLR wouldn't render a person incapable of.

    also how does Si == imagining what to create. you're talking about a sensing function. when have Ne types ever had trouble imagining anything?

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    Not incapable, less capable. After all, everyone does all 8 functions to one degree or another, but an activity that hinges on successfully using the PoLR function is not going to be enjoyable.

    As for , I'm talking about imagining a sensory stimulus here (an image), not the more general meaning of the term imagination. I can imagine in the broader sense of the term just fine, but creating an image in my head, or for that matter even just recalling one that I see every day, like my family's faces? Not gonna happen. (Of course some LIIs may focus more on the visual sense than me and be capable of doing that, but all around, we're out of touch with our senses... the only one I have any real connection to is hearing)

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    in as far as Se has any relation to motoric functioning it is to gross motoric functions, not fine ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    In order to draw, one has to make bold, sure, physical movements, using . One also has to imagine what one wants to create, which requires . Both these functions are weak in an LII, and in particular is a kind of sore point that tends to frustrate the LII if he tries to exercise it.
    Labcoat is right. Drawing has no relation to function. Any type can draw. What Si does that Se doesn't is render it incapable of reproduction of an image without the presence of the image to "copy" it from. Let's say you show an Si a real life Light pole and ask it to capture the details in it's exactness after just one viewing, the person, because it's not capable of noticing all the details at face value and memorizing them for reproduction, will not be able to replicate it in it's exactness. The image enters their mind and the image is subjectified and sort of bent to their will and imagination, making replication unlike the real item.

    Physical movement is not Se; sense perception (digesting things from the senses is Se) this is like listening to something or tasting. etc. If physical movement was only pegged to Se than I would be crawling lol.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 01-02-2012 at 12:10 AM.

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    This thread appears to be an LII catchall without offering differentiation to neighboring types, which probably tells me people don't really get the difference...

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    I noticed when conversing with the LIIs I've typed that the flow of talking often becomes very turn-based in a sort of way; one person completes a thought, then the other person completes one, and it all goes back and forth in a really crisp, clean, organized manner; I make extra certain not to "bulldoze" like I often do
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    If they aren't on the internet then they're intelligent, sensible, clear-headed individuals with a good sense of who they are and reasonably good interpersonal skills. If they meet a computer screen and keyboard, you have yourself a pompous, delusional schizoid with painfully stunted capabilities for effective communication and emotional self-awareness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    If they aren't on the internet then they're intelligent, sensible, clear-headed individuals with a good sense of who they are and reasonably good interpersonal skills. If they meet a computer screen and keyboard, you have yourself a pompous, delusional schizoid with painfully stunted capabilities for effective communication and emotional self-awareness.
    I've found quite the opposite, actually. Many LIIs are not particularly good at communicating in person, and are much better at expressing their thoughts and feelings in the written word.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Some traits that stick out to me: VERY independent, conceptually logical, quite intuitive, competent, self-governing, solitary, often reclusive, curious, philosophical, persevering, enigmatic, scientific.



    Listen to this INTJ guy in this video (Probably LII too). This is what I imagine Labcoat to sound like when he goes off into his "you guys are dumb, I was right all along" posts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I've found quite the opposite, actually. Many LIIs are not particularly good at communicating in person, and are much better at expressing their thoughts and feelings in the written word.
    The INTjs I've known in person have been either very well-spoken and intelligent or just enjoyable people to be around. I'm sure we experience them differently though, given our type differences and our experiences with different individual INTjs.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    The INTjs I've known in person have been either very well-spoken and intelligent or just enjoyable people to be around. I'm sure we experience them differently though, given our type differences and our experiences with different individual INTjs.
    Indeed. Also we would probably disagree in many cases on who is and isn't an LII.
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    Ask them this question:

    "My friend has been cheating on their husband and she's coming to talk to me and we've been talking about her situation. What should I say to her? What should I do? Be supportive or I shouldn't be judmental of her?"

    And pay attention to the response as verbatim as possible, then bring it back here

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    I'm not seeing the videos for some reason?
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    The video of Bill Gates by Guy123? Or just all of the videos in this thread?
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    Quote Originally Posted by labocat View Post
    i would describe them as opposite to talkative in most contexts, because it's just a very small subset of situations in which they "big talk" manifests, and even in such matters they tend to be on the concise side.
    That's correct. LIIs generally need a clear and rational purpose in everything they do, talking about one's hobbies has none (I mean rational - "I do this because X", where X is defined). Any activity has to have a point. This is continuously confirmed by my experience; I work with an LII who shares some interests with me, but he is not talking about them but with very rare occasions. He is an ace in math and programming and I would like to make him help me in creating some simulators to confirm some hypotheses of mine, but this is extremely hard and awkward for me to do. From my experience with him involving the job work, he does not put much effort into a search based on guessworks, incomplete hypotheses, like I do. To make him move, I have to be exhaustive in my knowledge about the subject, but this almost conincides with doing it all myself, which makes him uninteresting.

    The LII knowledge is accurate and well sorted in their minds, but it is hard to query, because your questions have to be very precise, which in my case again, almost always implies already having the answer myself. To exemplify (this is another LII who knew math and I asked for help, long time ago): I was urgently needing the name of a function that can be used to create animation loops for a job, only the name for fuck's sake! I sketched my purpose in general terms, I explained to him him, but it seems he could not understand exactly what I wanted so he could not give me even partial answers, as if I was in need to "translate" my statements in some precise code or nomenclature for his mind. Of course, looking to figure out more clues, I actually understood completely what I was needing, a trivial "sawtooth function", that he knew but could simply not correlate to my issue .

    So yeah, LIIs are not very helpful people, even when they have an understanding and an interest in a common field with someone else, a strict organization and nomenclature everyone adheres to is often helpful, though. They have a clear but very rigid mind and they strongly prefer to work alone.
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    LIIs are interesting. Their Ti is very useful in a lot of situations, to help calm me down and organize me.

    But they're sort of emotional crybabies. They can act like 3-year-olds in normal social situations. They can also act too nice and empathetic. People accuse INFps of being that way, but INTjs are worse (an INFp will dominate an INTj anyway).

    If you try to talk to them without sugarcoating something in Fe, they will recoil or lash out hatefully. Their Se is poor, so they get aggressive at unopportune times, and they get passive at equally unopportune times.

    I know I'm being harsh. But fuck you. You were just as harsh with me. Maybe what you said was all true even if you didn't say it the nicest way. Maybe the only way to get through to you sometimes is to be an ass. I love INTjs but love is pain. They are like the world's biggest bottoms.

  37. #37
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    But they're sort of emotional crybabies. They can act like 3-year-olds in normal social situations. They can also act too nice and empathetic. People accuse INFps of being that way, but INTjs are worse (an INFp will dominate an INTj anyway).

    If you try to talk to them without sugarcoating something in Fe, they will recoil or lash out hatefully. Their Se is poor, so they get aggressive at unopportune times, and they get passive at equally unopportune times.
    Embarrassing to read, but true.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    no, it's not.

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    Often Fe egos miss the point too: I actually don't care and just want the conversation to go somewhere else. For Se valuers: It's only bad that I'm being passive to the extent you aren't, otherwise I'd get along just fine. The problem is deeper... I should care more about strong reactions, but I don't. I'm willing to be bullied for the sake of temporary peace because it isn't going to have a direct effect on my thoughts, which are pretty detached from the present situation.

    Good ole Jung on Introverted Thinking (Sorry for text-wall):

    "Courtesy, amiability, and friendliness may be present, but often with a particular quality suggesting a certain uneasiness, which betrays an ulterior aim, namely, the disarming of an opponent, who must at all costs be pacified and set at ease lest he prove a disturbing- element. In no sense, of course, is he an opponent, but, if at all sensitive, he will feel somewhat repelled, perhaps even depreciated. Invariably the object has to submit to a certain neglect; in worse cases it is even surrounded with quite unnecessary measures of precaution. Thus it happens that this type tends to disappear behind a cloud of misunderstanding, which only thickens the more he attempts to assume, by way of compensation and with the help of his inferior functions, a certain mask of urbanity, which often presents a most vivid contrast to his real nature."

    "In his own special province, there are usually awkward experiences with his colleagues, since he never knows how to win their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, head-strong, and quite unamenable to influence. His suggestibility to personal influences is in strange contrast to this. An object has only to be recognized as apparently innocuous for such a type to become extremely accessible to really inferior elements. They lay hold of him from the unconscious. He lets himself be brutalized and exploited in the most ignominious way, if only he can be left undisturbed in the pursuit of his ideas. He simply does not see when he is being plundered behind his back and wronged in practical ways: this is because his relation to the object is such a secondary matter that lie is left without a guide in the purely objective valuation of his product."

    "Either he is taciturn or he falls among people who cannot understand him; whereupon he proceeds to gather further proof of the unfathomable stupidity of man. If he should ever chance to be understood, he is credulously liable to overestimate. Ambitious women have only to understand how advantage may be taken of his uncritical attitude towards the object to make an easy prey of him; or he may develop into a misanthropic bachelor with a childlike heart. Then, too, his outward appearance is often gauche, as if he were painfully anxious to escape observation; or he may show a remarkable unconcern, an almost childlike naivete. In his own particular field of work he provokes violent contradiction, with which he has no notion how to deal, unless by chance he is seduced by his primitive affects into biting and fruitless polemics. By his wider circle he is counted inconsiderate and domineering. But the [p. 488] better one knows him, the more favourable one's judgment becomes, and his nearest friends are well aware how to value his intimacy. To people who judge him from afar he appears prickly, inaccessible, haughty; frequently he may even seem soured as a result of his anti-social prejudices."

    "With the intensification of his type, his convictions become all the more rigid and unbending. Foreign influences are eliminated; he becomes more unsympathetic to his peripheral world, and therefore more dependent upon his intimates. His expression becomes more personal and inconsiderate and his ideas more profound, but they can no longer be adequately expressed in the material at hand. This lack is replaced by emotivity and susceptibility. The foreign influence, brusquely declined from without, reaches him from within, from the side of the unconscious, and he is obliged to collect evidence against it and against things in general which to outsiders seems quite superfluous. Through the subjectification of consciousness occasioned by his defective relationship to the object, what secretly concerns his own person now seems to him of chief importance. And he begins to confound his subjective truth with his own person. Not that he will attempt to press anyone personally with his convictions, but he will break out with venomous and personal retorts against every criticism, however just. Thus in every respect his isolation gradually increases. His originally fertilizing ideas become destructive, because poisoned by a kind of sediment of bitterness. His struggle against the influences emanating [p. 489] from the unconscious increases with his external isolation, until gradually this begins to cripple him. A still greater isolation must surely protect him from the unconscious influences, but as a rule this only takes him deeper into the conflict which is destroying him within."
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