ISTps and ESTjs expressing/showing their feelings

[Ver]

Seriously...how do you show feelings. I'm in a relationship with someone who I believe is ESTj Si. Everything is great but I'm a bit afraid cause I don't really see "this" in his eyes. I mean he does everything perfectly, he hugs me, kisses me I know he wants me but I don't know if he really loves me if you know what I mean. It's like his face is always the same, sometimes I even think he's angry when he's looking at me. When I ask him about that, he smiles and he says he's just planning what to do the next day. He started talking about the wedding but I still don't know.
Why can't the perfect guy be more affectionate, why why...

[InkStrider]

Seriously...how do you show feelings. I'm in a relationship with someone who I believe is ESTj Si. Everything is great but I'm a bit afraid cause I don't really see "this" in his eyes. I mean he does everything perfectly, he hugs me, kisses me I know he wants me but I don't know if he really loves me if you know what I mean. It's like his face is always the same, sometimes I even think he's angry when he's looking at me. When I ask him about that, he smiles and he says he's just planning what to do the next day. He started talking about the wedding but I still don't know.
Why can't the perfect guy be more affectionate, why why...

What's his enneagram type and stacking?

[Reuben]

Ask him to be more affectionate.

[ashlesha]

if the only "problem" is an inexpressive face that seems minor? my guess is he does nice things for you and tries to just be there for you and shows his love that way. that's how it seems to go with the stoic types.

ime it can take some getting used to someone showing affection almost exclusively through actions and not expressing it much but there's also a genuiness. some forms of showing affection are harder to fake and anyone can smile or say some words.

can you recognize other ways he shows he cares? are they ways that could realistically satisfy you?

[Suz]

Not quite sure with LSEs but with three SLIs i've known in close (but not intimate) interactions, they can be really hard to read but i can sometimes see affection in their eyes maybe. I also do some guessing based on context. Sometimes i'm correct, sometimes not i guess (i'll never know the real answer, in some cases).

[Ver]

Hmmm... I don't know what he's enneagram type is. He is the best person I have ever met but I don't know him for long. I feel great with him, he is caring, calm and funny. He is relaxed and takes control at the same time if that makes sense at all . The real problem is he once told me that one of his goals for this year was to find a girlfriend so I sometimes I feel like I'm just his goal...which, of course, I wouldn't like to be. I feel so safe with him, I've never felt this way before. One of my friends told me lately that he doesn't look at me the way he should be looking if he loved me. She says her boyfriend would be all over her kissing hugging etc. I shouldn't be listening to her I know . But these goals combined with that. With me it's totally different, I act intuitively. I felt the connection with him and I was just looking for more contact, didn't know if I wanted to be with him or not. My way of acting is something I believe is based on true feelings and he's strategical approach is really weird to me .

[Ver]

And another thing is... I don't really care about the fact he doesn't say compliments. The only thing I need is to know if he truely feels something and I just don't know how to check that . I had a really unbalanced INTj boyfriend before and I could read him totally. I just knew what he felt by looking at him, listening to him etc.

[Suz]

Hmmm... I don't know what he's enneagram type is. He is the best person I have ever met but I don't know him for long. I feel great with him, he is caring, calm and funny. He is relaxed and takes control at the same time if that makes sense at all . The real problem is he once told me that one of his goals for this year was to find a girlfriend so I sometimes I feel like I'm just his goal...which, of course, I wouldn't like to be. I feel so safe with him, I've never felt this way before. One of my friends told me lately that he doesn't look at me the way he should be looking if he loved me. She says her boyfriend would be all over her kissing hugging etc. I shouldn't be listening to her I know . But these goals combined with that. With me it's totally different, I act intuitively. I felt the connection with him and I was just looking for more contact, didn't know if I wanted to be with him or not. My way of acting is something I believe is based on true feelings and he's strategical approach is really weird to me .

I hear u re: the doubts about him saying his goal was to find a gf. Depending on how else he treats you, it might just be a weak-Fi thing to say; i.e. his feelings towards you could be genuine, and he just doesn't realize that you dont say something like that to a girl you like. SLIs are also bad about making slips like that.

As for the hugging/kissing and being all over you that your friend is expecting from a bf does sound like a more Fe-oriented approach to demonstrating affection. In delta, seems like acts of service are more relevant to showing affection than all that showy stuff (which personally i wouldn't want to do out in public anyway, even holding hands i think is cheesy). So, does your boyfriend do things for you? Does he help you out at all? Is he there for you when you need him? If so, i would say he feels strongly for you regardless of how kissy/huggy he is.

EDIT: oh btw, regarding feeling the connection early on. Girl, i totally relate. But this has sort of been my downfall with the SLIs. In other words, I feel a promising connection much much MUCH earlier than they seem to. My assessment of them and "approval" (so to speak) in my mind as a suitable candidate for a romantic relationship happens a lot quicker than theirs does. So one thing I have had to learn in dealing with them is PATIENCE. They just dont have the capability of assessing people that we do, and they go about an evaluation of a person in a very systematic, slow way. Probably true of LSEs too. Even SEEs are slower than IEEs in this respect, because they rely on concrete evidence they can sense to make any sort of conclusion about a person's character (per my understanding anyway).

My point in saying this is, take things slow. If you arent sure you see genuine affection yet, but you think he's a great guy and feel a connection, just be patient but hold off on too much intimacy (and try not to become TOO attached too fast--I know it's so easy to say but so hard for us to control) until you have more evidence from him of his affection for YOU (as opposed to just any girl that seems interested in him), which he might not have decided upon yet himself and needs more time with you to realize.

[Ver]

Thank you for support :*. Yes, he really helps me He walks my dogs, he goes to the vet with them, he sometimes repairs my things, calls me, fuels my car , wants to feed me whenever we go somewhere and in general is really nice although he sometimes treats me like a child (which I, ashamed to admit, sometimes like) Maybe I'm just not used to such unexpressivness. Anyway, he does show his feelings sometimes (or rather rarely). There's been some occassions on which I could see it in his eyes but it happens rarely. Yeah, maybe I'm just not used to his style. But still... I sometimes think he's just so good in general and he would be this way to anybody and it's not because he loves me.

[anndelise]

Check out the 5 love languages by gary chapman: http://www.5lovelanguages.com/learn-...ove-languages/ (scroll down to read a summary of each)

Then take the quiz yourself, to find out how you show love and what signs you, personally, tend to look for to see if someone loves you.

Then either ask him to take the quiz, or you take it while paying attention to the things that he does/says. Those will be how he shows love. Once you know how he shows love, then you know what to look for as signs that he love you. It may not be the same as yours, so paying attention to it might require a little effort on your part.

Richard and I are both physical touch and acts of service as our primary methods. My top is physical touch, his top is acts of service.

My daughter's is quality time (top) and words of affirmation (second). When I had her take the test, she immediately understood that our differences here were a major part of our misunderstandings of each other, and why we both didn't feel loved by the other. We've found ways of resolving this. Morning time walk to the bus stop is OUR time, the only exceptions are when my back is hurting too bad for me to make it back. And even then I'll use crutches if I can. And just before bedtime, as well as when the bus arrives, she remembers to give me a hug.

We do this, even when we are momentarily angry with each other. Because without it, we feel hurt and pained for the rest of the day/night.

[FDG]

You could try finding a romantic (but good, not cheap shitty stuff) movie that slightly resembles your relationship with you, and check out his reactions during the core relational nodes of the movies. Take it from another Te dominant type, but not Te-Si, I might be slightly more sensitive to that than the average person.

[Suz]

Oh one thing i do know about LSEs that I suddenly remembered... the ones i've come across are NOTORIOUSLY bad at judging character. Like one LSE boss I had a few years ago--a total prodigy in his field, SO hardworking, practically a workaholic, great guy--had a track record for completely misjudging people initially. Like, he hired/almost hired total disasters just because a friend of his might have recommended them or his initial impression was positive. Also once his mind was made up, he was resistant to input/warnings from others. People kept warning him about the "almost hired" person, which he didn't want to listen to, but luckily she turned him off when she badmouthed his friend who'd recommended her to him at her interview with him . such people he did end up hiring, ended up needing to get fired. On the flip side, he sort of underappreciated others at first (who may have been more quiet and less show-offy) but grew to love them and see them as indispensible members of his team. A few such people (including myself) had had enough underappreciation and were making plans to leave by that time though. I remember a couple days before my last day he suddenly started begging me to stay, which would have made me reconsider my plan to leave except that a lot of things were already in action for me to move, start a different job, etc that just could not be reversed at that point. I would also never want to work for him again because of how burnt out i felt in trying to prove myself to him and just feeling like I was hired as just a pair of hands into his big machine and never want to feel that way again. Sad really, cause I really like and admire him and he was a really nice guy.

[Ver]

That might be true. I had a few ESTj friends but they were Te subtypes. I get on better with my boyfriend, he is totally Si subtype, I sometimes think he might me ISTp even. Yes, I know it's good not to get attached too much and just observe. But it is SOOOOOO difficult in practice. I'm afraid of getting hurt and of dissapointment. I forbid him to say ANYTHING about getting married and I said we will come back to this discussion in a few months. He's a plan-freak . We'll see what the future brings. For me it's sometimes hard to deal with "simplicity". It's difficult to look somebody so balanced, calm and knowing what he wants .... but on the other hand it's so safe... even though I start to doubt in his feelings (how can you feel the same all the time ?)

[Ver]

To andelise: I did the test and it turned out Quality Time and Physical Touch are my main love languages (both scored 10) aand acts of service 7. For my boyfriend, I would have to make him do the test . I'm wondering it love languages are type related. Like Physical touch would be Si quardras??

[anndelise]

Uh, my response seemed to have disappeared instead of posting.

5 love languages would not fit well w 8 information elements.
But maybe consider it a subtype kind of thing.

[InkStrider]

But still... I sometimes think he's just so good in general and he would be this way to anybody and it's not because he loves me.

I take that the problem is that you're basically feeling insecure regarding the strength of his affections? Because you're so into him that you want him to be as equally into you, and you're wondering if he is due to his lack of expression?

It's just something you have to sense I suppose. Reason why I asked about the enneagram is because it affects how they'd go about expressing themselves as well as provide an insight as to what goes on in their minds.

The real problem is he once told me that one of his goals for this year was to find a girlfriend so I sometimes I feel like I'm just his goal...which, of course, I wouldn't like to be.

This might be a red flag or it might not. I'd personally rather have nobody than to just find anybody, and then having to spend the rest of my life pretending that they're a somebody.

[Ver]

I take that the problem is that you're basically feeling insecure regarding the strength of his affections? Because you're so into him that you want him to be as equally into you, and you're wondering if he is due to his lack of expression?

It's just something you have to sense I suppose. Reason why I asked about the enneagram is because it affects how they'd go about expressing themselves as well as provide an insight as to what goes on in their minds.


This might be a red flag or it might not. I'd personally rather have nobody than to just find anybody, and then having to spend the rest of my life pretending that they're a somebody.

You are totally right about how I feel. I'm quessing I'm just making a fuss...maybe. As for his enneagram type I believe he's 8w9 but I don't even know what my enneagram type is . Maybe 6w7? I score 4 or 2, sometimes 7 in tests.
I quess that I just have to wait and see . And he was alone for 3 years before he met me and girls rather like him so maybe he feels something after all

[Absurd]

Seriously...how do you show feelings.

By being there. I mean, I have a bit of a problem when feelings are involved, it comes with a price to me, so I have to know whether it is genuine or not. There were times I was baffled by it. Anyway, he's thinking about wedding, so it is damn serious. Looks like you're in doubt or I'm wrong.

[Suz]

By being there. I mean, I have a bit of a problem when feelings are involved, it comes with a price to me, so I have to know whether it is genuine or not. There were times I was baffled by it.

what do u mean by that?

Anyway, he's thinking about wedding, so it is damn serious. Looks like you're in doubt or I'm wrong.

By "he" i'm assuming you mean Pauluch's boyfriend... so my question is, how can you be so sure he's thinking about wedding from what Pauluch described?

[anndelise]

By "he" i'm assuming you mean Pauluch's boyfriend... so my question is, how can you be so sure he's thinking about wedding from what Pauluch described?

Post #1 and 13 both mention him talking marriage.

[Suz]

Post #1 and 13 both mention him talking marriage.

My bad!!! Had to go back and reread carefully...

In that case I'm with Absurd, his affection seems pretty clear! Why the doubts Pauluch???

[Ver]

Where's the doubt... Because that wedding planning is just childlike and he doesn't take into account the fact we've been officially together for a little more than two months!!!! I think that everything can change, I'm afraid he's going to change his mind, we don't really know each other that much. From the very beginning I felt really close to him, the connection was really strong but still... I know things can change. And firstly I thought he was ENFp .
My previous INTj boyfriend was really unstable, he would say something than change his mind - he also wanted to marry me and it looked serious although we weren't engaged. My present boyfriend is much more serious but I just need time to wait to get to know him and for him to get to know me better . I don't know him to be disappointed or something. I'm afraid of rejection, I'm afraid of getting attached too much, then suffering and taking into account his character I'm a bit afraid that he's going to change his feelings towards me (stop liking me e.g.) and stay with because he would feel it's his duty. That's why I would like to read his feelings.

[Absurd]

what do u mean by that?

I mean, it takes a bit time for me, I have to be sure hse is the one. I've have had my dose of relationships, and I got smarter.

By "he" i'm assuming you mean Pauluch's boyfriend... so my question is, how can you be so sure he's thinking about wedding from what Pauluch described?

She said he is thinking about wedding. I take it he is thinking about getting married not with a fucking whale, not with a monkey, not with an elephant, he's thinking about getting married with a human being.

Where's the doubt... Because that wedding planning is just childlike

Oh I see now more clearly. Confront him about it. Seems like you have the upper hand from what I read about it.

My previous INTj boyfriend was really unstable, he would say something than change his mind

Oim fucking hate those cunts as well, not LIIs though, but those weirdos.

I'm afraid of rejection, I'm afraid of getting attached too much

And you're not in doubt, I see...

[consentingadult]

Seriously...how do you show feelings. I'm in a relationship with someone who I believe is ESTj Si. Everything is great but I'm a bit afraid cause I don't really see "this" in his eyes. I mean he does everything perfectly, he hugs me, kisses me I know he wants me but I don't know if he really loves me if you know what I mean. It's like his face is always the same, sometimes I even think he's angry when he's looking at me. When I ask him about that, he smiles and he says he's just planning what to do the next day. He started talking about the wedding but I still don't know.
Why can't the perfect guy be more affectionate, why why...

It's probably a matter of expectations. I am just starting to understand SLI mating behavior myself, like tonight at Chinese class, when an SLI woman I never spoke to before, came to me after class not to show her emotions, but her self-made stack of flash cards of Chinese characters.

[Absurd]

It's probably a matter of expectations. I am just starting to understand SLI mating behavior myself, like tonight at Chinese class, when an SLI woman I never spoke to before, came to me after class not to show her emotions, but her self-made stack of flash cards of Chinese characters.

She drawn it for you with crayons?

[InkStrider]

Where's the doubt... Because that wedding planning is just childlike and he doesn't take into account the fact we've been officially together for a little more than two months!!!! I think that everything can change, I'm afraid he's going to change his mind, we don't really know each other that much. From the very beginning I felt really close to him, the connection was really strong but still... I know things can change. And firstly I thought he was ENFp .
My previous INTj boyfriend was really unstable, he would say something than change his mind - he also wanted to marry me and it looked serious although we weren't engaged. My present boyfriend is much more serious but I just need time to wait to get to know him and for him to get to know me better . I don't know him to be disappointed or something. I'm afraid of rejection, I'm afraid of getting attached too much, then suffering and taking into account his character I'm a bit afraid that he's going to change his feelings towards me (stop liking me e.g.) and stay with because he would feel it's his duty. That's why I would like to read his feelings.

The simplest way is to talk to him about how you feel. Find a good time, after a good dinner, perhaps take a stroll along someplace quiet, in the car with soft music, the seaside or the hillside and tell him the honest truth about your fears and your worries, everything you have told us here, and hear what he has to say. Keeping it in is just going to eat you up. Chances are he might have his own fears as well, and would be happy for the opportunity to talk and to share. I think with LSEs, you can't read their feelings because some of them can be really stoical and refuse to show any (especially so for an 8 I think, because showing emotion is a sign of weakness and vulnerability).

If you want, you can try comparing the way he treats you and the way he treats others. To me, it's about priorities. The more important you are, the higher your priority, and I would willingly change/shift my plans to accommodate you if existing plans aren't too unavoidable or urgent. I wouldn't jump into something as important as marriage if I weren't entirely sure. But if I am, I'm going secretly worry that they might change their mind so I better hurry and rush things before it's too late. For all you know he might just be as concerned about losing you as you are on losing him, lol.

[Ver]

Oh I see now more clearly. Confront him about it. Seems like you have the upper hand from what I read about it.

It's not that I have the upper hand it's like he's pushing me to go further and I make him stop and enjoy the moment. I kind of like that cause I feel I can achieve something. I'm usually afraid of everything, he always knows how to solve the problems and is assertive, confrontional whereas I usually back off ... He's my hero and thanks to him I am stronger, more confident and - what is really weird - thanks to his caregiveness I'm more independent myself, I just feel "I can do it myself".
I confront him about that of course although I usually smile, I'm not that serious .

And you're not in doubt, I see...

I'm not in doubt. I met him three times, and these weren't even dates and I thought : I want to marry this person. But I know that things like that can change. We usually love what we believe this person is, not what that person really is. I have been really stable when it comes to feelings. We'll see if he is as well.

[Absurd]

It's not that I have the upper hand it's like he's pushing me to go further and I make him stop and enjoy the moment.

Oh okay.

I confront him about that of course although I usually smile, I'm not that serious .

It's just me but hey, I don't think it is something to worry about. Have fun.

[Ver]

The simplest way is to talk to him about how you feel. Find a good time, after a good dinner, perhaps take a stroll along someplace quiet, in the car with soft music, the seaside or the hillside and tell him the honest truth about your fears and your worries, everything you have told us here, and hear what he has to say. Keeping it in is just going to eat you up. Chances are he might have his own fears as well, and would be happy for the opportunity to talk and to share. I think with LSEs, you can't read their feelings because some of them can be really stoical and refuse to show any (especially so for an 8 I think, because showing emotion is a sign of weakness and vulnerability).

If you want, you can try comparing the way he treats you and the way he treats others. To me, it's about priorities. The more important you are, the higher your priority, and I would willingly change/shift my plans to accommodate you if existing plans aren't too unavoidable or urgent. I wouldn't jump into something as important as marriage if I weren't entirely sure. But if I am, I'm going secretly worry that they might change their mind so I better hurry and rush things before it's too late. For all you know he might just be as concerned about losing you as you are on losing him, lol.

He's definitely concerned about losing me He was especially in the beginning. He thought I would go for a party with my girlfriends and find somebody else. I found it a little funny but also offensive and I told him that .
Another reason why I doubt his feelings is because in his previous 7-year relationship, his girlfriend wanted to marry him and he just didn't want to talk about it and finally she left him for somebody else. So now I think he just doesn't want to lose me that's why he's talking about that . I don't know maybe I'm just thinking too much and overanalyzing .

[Reuben]

Pauluch, go for it. It is clear that he loves you. If I'm doing all that shit for a girl, it's only because I love her. I mean, he can be that way to anyone, and everyone, but the fact that he fixes your stuff and does things for you says a lot.

And you know something? Chances are he didn't want to talk about marriage with his previous girlfriend because she wasn't right for him.

Also, when LSE's say something, they fucking mean it. Don't get butter feet Pauluch, and I'll see you on the wedding aisle in 6 months.

[InkStrider]

He's definitely concerned about losing me He was especially in the beginning. He thought I would go for a party with my girlfriends and find somebody else. I found it a little funny but also offensive and I told him that .
Another reason why I doubt his feelings is because in his previous 7-year relationship, his girlfriend wanted to marry him and he just didn't want to talk about it and finally she left him for somebody else. So now I think he just doesn't want to lose me that's why he's talking about that . I don't know maybe I'm just thinking too much and overanalyzing .

You mean he's on the rebound? You've met him only 3 times, which means it's not too long a time. Since I'm not sure about the details, I can't speak too much but I think that it's wise that you are exercising caution and not jump into things too quickly. My concern is that your LSE is still pining over his lost girlfriend, and is substituting her for you, playing it all over again in his mind, determined to do it 'right' this time round. It might be a little far-fetched, but what I am afraid of is him suddenly realizing that this is what he has been unconsciously doing, feel that it isn't fair for you, conscience setting in, and etc etc. It would be terrible if this happened after marriage, so yeah..

[Reuben]

LSE is still pining over his lost girlfriend, and is substituting her for you

LSE's are incapable of pining.

[InkStrider]

LSE's are incapable of pining.

Look here. Fact is, you know nothing about LSEs other than a whole bunch of misconceived stereotypes. Stop spreading shit about us like the stuff you've written in the Ni PoLR thread.

[Park]

Listen to your gut. Instincts rarely go wrong.

And don't worry about the future. Things have a way of working themselves out.

Oh one thing i do know about LSEs that I suddenly remembered... the ones i've come across are NOTORIOUSLY bad at judging character.

I am the same way.

[force my hand]

Where's the doubt... Because that wedding planning is just childlike and he doesn't take into account the fact we've been officially together for a little more than two months!!!! I think that everything can change, I'm afraid he's going to change his mind, we don't really know each other that much. From the very beginning I felt really close to him, the connection was really strong but still... I know things can change. And firstly I thought he was ENFp .
My previous INTj boyfriend was really unstable, he would say something than change his mind - he also wanted to marry me and it looked serious although we weren't engaged. My present boyfriend is much more serious but I just need time to wait to get to know him and for him to get to know me better . I don't know him to be disappointed or something. I'm afraid of rejection, I'm afraid of getting attached too much, then suffering and taking into account his character I'm a bit afraid that he's going to change his feelings towards me (stop liking me e.g.) and stay with because he would feel it's his duty. That's why I would like to read his feelings.

Other people have given you support, but I'm going to give you my opinion: I think you're projecting. A lot.

The things you seem to be reading in him are your worries, and I think you owe it to yourself to examine that. The nice thing about Delta STs, for all our faults, is that you can usually take us at our word. If he says he has no problem, he has no problem. ...But you may become a problem, if you catch my drift.

If you need more affection, then state that explicitly. "I need more affection from you." If he's got it together, he'll respond to that in kind. However, you will have to maintain that demand from time to time, because he ultimately won't change.

YMMV. Ignore or consider as you please.

[Reuben]

^^^^^^ what he said.

Fuck you ink. Do you know what I mean by pining? LSE have fucking emotions too, I don't deny that, and are very sentimental.

But delta STs don't pine. They keep moving on, because it's the only thing to do to keep them alive. I'm very sure, Pauluch, that he sees you as who you are, who you really are, because that's all we're capable of.

[InkStrider]

Fuck you ink. Do you know what I mean by pining? LSE have fucking emotions too, I don't deny that, and are very sentimental.

But delta STs don't pine. They keep moving on, because it's the only thing to do to keep them alive.

Yes, this is true. Fair enough, I misunderstood you if you had meant pining to be in its emotionally expressive and indulgent form. What I want to point out though, is precisely this. Delta STs may keep moving, but it hardly means that their hearts have moved along as well. Which is why I felt that your original advice for Pauluch to not butter feet is unwise.

IMO, Parksters advice to listen to our own instincts is the best. Although the problem will then be in determining which is the instinct and which the doubt.

[force my hand]

IMO, Parksters advice to listen to our own instincts is the best. Although the problem will then be in determining which is the instinct and which the doubt.

That's an interesting statement - can you expand?

[InkStrider]

That's an interesting statement - can you expand?

As we start to examine ourselves on our own instincts, we would often experience two conflicting forces. We call one the 'true instinct' and the other the 'conflicting doubt'. We never know which is which until the result has been determined, in which we then curse ourselves for not listening to one, or breathe in relief for having listened to the other. The result: whether favourable or unfavourable, determines which is which.

In this sense, there is no clear instinct. Unless we are so certain as to have no doubt, in which the instinct is truly the instinct, which is rarely the case.

[Park]

I see what you're saying, Ink. But even in such cases there's usually a slight leaning towards one choice or course of action that outweighs the other(s). It's the feeling that stays with you and resides within (even) when you stop thinking about your dilemma. I agree that it can be minute and hard to identify sometimes, but it's usually there.

In the case of Pauluch, the doubts she has are not instinctual, they are on a lower, more superficial level. To be honest, sounds like normal anxiety to me, more than anything else.