Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 363

Thread: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

  1. #1
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Alrighty. I remember that a while back, when everyone was ENTp, everyone would complain a ton about PoLRs. You'd hear people talking about how they're soooo0oo00OO00o handicapped because of their "lack of Fi." People would often use it as an excuse to be nasty bitches towards others, claiming that they're entitled to do so, because they don't understand social norms and such. As a SLE, with a PoLR myself, I can safely say that it's all bullshit. Make use of a little bit of , and all social issues tend to resolve themselves. Having as a PoLR isn't really a problem at all in social situations, but rather it takes its effect in another form:

    An over-simplified description of :

    subjective emotional relationships between objects - attraction vs. repulsion, like vs. dislike, need of each other, love, friendship, antipathy, ethical norms, morals, qualitative properties, subjective judgments
    Positive(short range):
    Good relations — love, friendship, sympathy, an attraction, heat of attitudes, the sociability, a close psychological distance, kindly, pity;
    Negative (long range):
    Bad attitudes — hatred, enmity, antipathy, pushing away, estrangement, the unsociability, a far psychological distance, angrily, ruthlessness.
    In myself and other SLEs I have observed, it seems as if one of the main manifestations of the PoLR is having difficulty of establishing close relations with others, whether good or bad. (I can't really speak for ILEs here, because I'm not one of them, and it is possible that they behave somewhat differently with their PoLR). One day, an ISFp friend noted, "You know, it seems as if you don't actually dislike anyone, really. That's kinda cool!" In a way, she was right. If you asked me to name off all of my enemies, there would be no one on my list. If I get angry or irritated at someone, it'll last at most a couple of days. After that, all grudges disappear, and I return to a neutral state towards that person. It's kind of a state of not liking them, but not hating them either. My way of thinking is that it feels like shit to hate people, so therefore, in order to not feel like shit, I don't hate people. I do this on an unconcious level.

    But there is a flipside to the coin! Just as it's hard for me to hate people, it's also very hard for me to love people. Besides my immediate family, I have never loved anyone. The closest I have ever came to loving someone (but never did) was towards my IEI friend, as well as another SLE, simply because we understood each other so well. Both were guys. Otherwise, my "neutrality mechanism" begins to kick in again. With people I consider friends, I joke around with, play sports with, party with, and talk with them. The catch is, that once they move out of my life for a short while, I tend to forget about them, and get new replacement friends. I have lost contact with tons of people, as much as I don't want that to happen. They become neutral again, just like any people whom I actually dislike. It is very hard for me to establish close relationships, and when I do, it takes an extremely long time for me to actually feel anything towards that person. I have reached this point with the IEI and the SLE only. When I don't see them for a while, I don't really miss them, but once I see them again, I remember how great friends they were, and that I should really stay closer with them. Of course, it's hard for me to follow through with that, thus repeating the cycle.

    One of the last major ways that the PoLR has an effect is on how I interact with people. I could use all the I want, and that creates a happy-effect on the people I talk with. However, I rarely actually feel the things that I show outwardly. One way I notice this is when my ESI mom introduces me to one of her friends, I smile until my jaw gets tired, do the hand-shaking, high voice, pleasant language, etc. It gives my mom and her friends what they're looking for me to do. However, in reality, I don't really give a shit! It's sort of a pseudo-feeling; I can trick myself into believing that I care and feel the same thing that I'm expressing about whatever I'm doing the to, but that soon passes. This often times takes place when I'm trying to be polite, during social situations and such. I go home sort of empty at times, because of all that faking. If I do it over a long period of time though, like when interacting with the IEI and the SLE that I mentioned previously, I do actually feel these things. This is an extreme rarity, though, and it's most likely not a cooincidence that they're my dual and identical pairs.

    There is is. I hope that this post can help people realize that having a poor DOES NOT make one socially inept. I'm not what one would consider socially retarded, and most other SLEs aren't either, despite the PoLR! People should learn to make the best of their PoLR, rather than bitching about it. A better way of dealing with it, is understanding how it manifests itself, identifying it, learning to work with it, and discovering alternatives and ways to work around it. I did so by forcing myself to not hate or dislike people, in the manner that I described above. It's both a strength and a weakness, and I am learning to accept that, learn from it, make the best of what I've got, and to not stress about it when someone hits the PoLR. Chances are, they didn't do it on purpose anyways, and people will not think of you much differently if that does happen.

    Peace.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    250
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Everything you have described here is what makes it difficult for me to deal with people like yourself (no offense) and especially those who would fall under ESTj. I can smell people who are faking nicety easily, the like you describe about smiling but not giving a shit. To tell you the truth, there is much more hardship for me to deal with ESTjs than ESTps. Reason being that you don't really care about people but it is something that "is," I am not fooled by it. I understand there are people that way, and I do not expect more out of them. However, it is considerably more painful for me to discern sometimes whether a ESTj "type" truly does something motivated by selfishness or out of genuine good will, and to know if they really like you.

  3. #3
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    ESTjs don't have as a PoLR though, so there is a difference.

    One thing I'd like to clear up: the thing about "not giving a shit" isn't quite as harsh as i may have made it sound like. My rough translation of that would be that I sort of care at the moment, but once it's done, it's done, and I don't really think about it again. I am actually not incapable of feeling.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    250
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Kraus wrote:
    ESTjs don't have as a PoLR though, so there is a difference.

    One thing I'd like to clear up: the thing about "not giving a shit" isn't quite as harsh as i may have made it sound like. My rough translation of that would be that I sort of care at the moment, but once it's done, it's done, and I don't really think about it again. I am actually not incapable of feeling.
    I know what you meant. I mentioned it in a detached manner, not angry at you or anything.

    ESTjs do not have an " PoLR" based on this theory, but maybe because of that, they can, in a way, "play around with being caring" rather than taking it seriously. People who are not obvious as to when they genuinely care and don't, mess my mind like no other. It causes a lot of confusion to me.

  5. #5
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,330
    Mentioned
    209 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    People should learn to make the best of their PoLR, rather than bitching about it. A better way of dealing with it, is understanding how it manifests itself, identifying it, learning to work with it, and discovering alternatives and ways to work around it.
    ...
    It's both a strength and a weakness, and I am learning to accept that, learn from it, make the best of what I've got, and to not stress about it when someone hits the PoLR. Chances are, they didn't do it on purpose anyways, and people will not think of you much differently if that does happen.

    Peace.
    This is awesome, Kraus!!!!!
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  6. #6
    Dioklecian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    4,304
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    Kraus wrote:
    ESTjs don't have as a PoLR though, so there is a difference.

    One thing I'd like to clear up: the thing about "not giving a shit" isn't quite as harsh as i may have made it sound like. My rough translation of that would be that I sort of care at the moment, but once it's done, it's done, and I don't really think about it again. I am actually not incapable of feeling.
    I know what you meant. I mentioned it in a detached manner, not angry at you or anything.

    ESTjs do not have an " PoLR" based on this theory, but maybe because of that, they can, in a way, "play around with being caring" rather than taking it seriously. People who are not obvious as to when they genuinely care and don't, mess my mind like no other. It causes a lot of confusion to me.
    Is Fe your POLR?

    ESTJs and other use Fe to fake people out.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    250
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Is Fe your POLR?
    No, it is not. I fall under INFj in this theory. It's not that it makes me uncomfortable. It is the intention in displaying affection.

    ESTJs and other use Fe to fake people out.
    This is exactly what messes with my mind, and it hurts a lot. I can't explain how confusing it is.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    Everything you have described here is what makes it difficult for me to deal with people like yourself (no offense) and especially those who would fall under ESTj. I can smell people who are faking nicety easily, the like you describe about smiling but not giving a shit. To tell you the truth, there is much more hardship for me to deal with ESTjs than ESTps. Reason being that you don't really care about people but it is something that "is," I am not fooled by it. I understand there are people that way, and I do not expect more out of them. However, it is considerably more painful for me to discern sometimes whether a ESTj "type" truly does something motivated by selfishness or out of genuine good will, and to know if they really like you.
    Kraus' post made me think about this too, how phoniness is what's most annoying to me (in any type) and how this has had me wonder about the INFj-ESTj duality aswell. Maybe I need to meet more ESTjs, but I wouldn't trust any of those I know to any large extent. I think that's the greatest effect of on my expectation of others - I want people to be honest. It's probably inconsistency in morals rather than bad morals that ticks me off. Ethics is subjective after all.

    The pushiness of some ESTps can be annoying too, but not all of them are pushy. Other than that the biggest issue I have with them is that I can't follow their directions because it means nothing to me. That's frustrating, but not offensive.

    And for the record, Kraus, we all fake it a little and you don't annoy me.
    INFj

  9. #9
    Creepy-pokeball

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    Is Fe your POLR?
    No, it is not. I fall under INFj in this theory. It's not that it makes me uncomfortable. It is the intention in displaying affection.

    ESTJs and other use Fe to fake people out.
    This is exactly what messes with my mind, and it hurts a lot. I can't explain how confusing it is.
    I think Fe can be authentic and fake. I think it's easy to tell but that's me. There is nothing wrong with honestly caring :/ And if there is, I dont want to be right!

    eh, that was cheesy lol.

  10. #10
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,631
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Best example of Fi polr, from a quote of a Kraus post on another forum:


    "Anyways, I know some ESTps, and I usually get along well with most of them. For example, there's this one kid in my gym class, an ESTp. All of my friends think that he's a total jerk / asshole, but I somhow understand it all, and see right through him. When we were running the mile, he was with this other kid (who's not an estp), but they were walking it because they didn't care. So they were purposely blocking off everyone, trying to increase [the runners'] times."

    Instead of letting other people do their duty and finish their task, they prefer to selfishly do nothing and proceed blocking others in order to not to be scolded. Ridicolous!

    (By the way, I do exactly the same with the "fake politness" to strangers. I personally think that nobody can GENUINELY like somebody without knowing him/her)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  11. #11
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,631
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    By the way, usually social retardation is (no offense) considered domain of PoLR, IME.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  12. #12
    Creepy-pokeball

    Default

    lol that was somewhat the theme of the new animation in the theatre called "Cars."


    NOT that I went and saw a kids movie or anything!

  13. #13
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    (By the way, I do exactly the same with the "fake politness" to strangers. I personally think that nobody can GENUINELY like somebody without knowing him/her)
    Of course, everyone does the fake politeness to strangers. But I think Kraus meant something else:


    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    It's sort of a pseudo-feeling; I can trick myself into believing that I care and feel the same thing that I'm expressing about whatever I'm doing the to, but that soon passes. This often times takes place when I'm trying to be polite, during social situations and such. I go home sort of empty at times, because of all that faking.
    The key thing is the "trick myself into believing that I care and feel". That is precisely how Jung describes Extraverted Feeling. Types who have preference of over will be polite in their behavior, but never trick themselves that they are feeling something they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    There is is. I hope that this post can help people realize that having a poor DOES NOT make one socially inept. I'm not what one would consider socially retarded, and most other SLEs aren't either, despite the PoLR!
    People who think that simply do not understand the functions. The PoLR is precisely how you described it.

    Social ineptness is more related to PoLR or perhaps as FDG said, but INFjs have PoLR and are hardly socially inept.

    Quote Originally Posted by pesto
    Kraus' post made me think about this too, how phoniness is what's most annoying to me (in any type) and how this has had me wonder about the INFj-ESTj duality aswell. Maybe I need to meet more ESTjs, but I wouldn't trust any of those I know to any large extent.
    ESTjs have as dual-seeking and as role function, just like ENTjs. So they also prefer to and it's the sincere from INFjs that they need. So if you think that ESTjs are particularly phony, I have to conclude that those "ESTjs" are really ISTjs or ESTps.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  14. #14
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    One thing I'd like to clear up: the thing about "not giving a shit" isn't quite as harsh as i may have made it sound like. My rough translation of that would be that I sort of care at the moment, but once it's done, it's done, and I don't really think about it again. I am actually not incapable of feeling.
    Actually types might be inclined to say that, yes, this shows that you are incapable of true feelings.

    I think your contribution in this thread to describing the PoLR has been awesome. Especially since many still think that is only about ethical principles. Hats off to you.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This reminds me somewhat to a quote of Eric Fromm:
    "What is true for the selfish, is also true for the narcistic people. Their omnipresent interest is less to acquire something, but more to admire themselves. Cursory viewed they seem to be in love with themselves; but in fact they dislike themselves and try to compensate their essential lack on self love with narcism. Freud demonstrates that narcists retread his love away from others and turn to the own person. The first part of the statement is correct, the second one is a sophism. He loves neither the others nor himself."

    In original:
    "Was für den Selbstsüchtigen gilt, gilt auch für den narzisstischen Menschen. Dessen allgegenwärtiges Interesse ist es weniger, sich Dinge anzueignen, als vielmehr sich selbst zu bewundern. Oberflächlich betrachtet scheinen diese Menschen in sich selbst verliebt zu sein; in Wirklichkeit aber können sie sich nicht leiden, und mit ihrem Narzissmus wie mit der Selbstsucht kompensieren sie einen grundlegenden Mangel an Selbstliebe. Freud hat betont, dass der Narzisst seine Liebe vom anderen zurückzieht und auf die eigene Person richtet. Der erste Teil dieser Behauptung ist richtig, der zweite ist ein Trugschluss. Er liebt weder die anderen noch sich selbst." - Erich Fromm, Die Antwort der Liebe
    "Wenn der Deutsche in einen Satz taucht, dann hat man ihn die längste Zeit gesehen, bis er auf der anderen Seite des Ozeans wieder auftaucht mit seinem Verb im Mund." - Mark Twain

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by pesto
    Kraus' post made me think about this too, how phoniness is what's most annoying to me (in any type) and how this has had me wonder about the INFj-ESTj duality aswell. Maybe I need to meet more ESTjs, but I wouldn't trust any of those I know to any large extent.
    ESTjs have as dual-seeking and as role function, just like ENTjs. So they also prefer to and it's the sincere from INFjs that they need. So if you think that ESTjs are particularly phony, I have to conclude that those "ESTjs" are really ISTjs or ESTps.
    Or they could be any other type, like INFj. When it comes to ESTj I think it's that I have yet to discovery any kind of "depth" in these people.

    One thing I'd like to clear up: the thing about "not giving a shit" isn't quite as harsh as i may have made it sound like. My rough translation of that would be that I sort of care at the moment, but once it's done, it's done, and I don't really think about it again. I am actually not incapable of feeling.
    Actually Introverted Feeling types might be inclined to say that, yes, this shows that you are incapable of true feelings.
    Well, not necessarily. In the ENTp I can spot other ways in which feelings or commitment are manifested. And I can see how they actually have more feelings than they want to aknowledge when they try to rationalise things that can't be.

    Expat, your observations are very accurate, but when you try and describe how feelers experience something, you paint a much too harsh and rigid picture. That is harmful to us and I wish you'd stop interpet our intentions. You descriptions are often belittling. As INFj I'm often seen as both inconfident and gutless, which is far from the truth. I just don't have the need to prove myself. It would be refreshing, to say the least, if a site dedicated to the understanding of different viewpoints would indeed provide that, and not just common misconceptions made into rules.
    INFj

  17. #17
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by pesto
    Expat, your observations are very accurate, but when you try and describe how feelers experience something, you paint a much too harsh and rigid picture. That is harmful to us and I wish you'd stop interpet our intentions.
    I give my interpretation. I make no claim to be infallible. If anyone disagrees, please say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by pesto
    You descriptions are often belittling. As INFj I'm often seen as both inconfident and gutless, which is far from the truth. I just don't have the need to prove myself.
    In the context of the thread, when I said something about ISFjs being more confident about their principles, I did not think that that was belittling. I don't think that being "confident" about something is necessarily a good thing. One may be confident about something and still be wrong, and reluctant to being corrected. Perhaps I should have said "rigid" and "flexible".

    Quote Originally Posted by pesto
    It would be refreshing, to say the least, if a site dedicated to the understanding of different viewpoints would indeed provide that, and not just common misconceptions made into rules.
    Anyone is free to post any viewpoint they wish.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  18. #18
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,330
    Mentioned
    209 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    In the context of the thread, when I said something about ISFjs being more confident about their principles, I did not think that that was belittling. I don't think that being "confident" about something is necessarily a good thing. One may be confident about something and still be wrong, and reluctant to being corrected. Perhaps I should have said "rigid" and "flexible".
    But then someone would have been offended at rigid, and someone else would have been offended at flexible...in some people's mind, flexible means wishy-washy. When it comes to precision in terms, it just can't seem to happen in a large group like this.

    I'm sorry Expat, I had not quoted your post thinking people would be so... inflexible ... in their terminology.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  19. #19
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,631
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    People that get pissed by anything that describes them in a somewhat not especially positive (Which does not mean negative, just approximaly near the origin of the axis) just can't take any criticism light heartedly and it's only their fault, not the other persons' fault given that most things stated on this forum are opinions and not statements of truth, duh. Seems like common sense but there sure is loads of people that believe otherwise.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  20. #20
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @anndelise:

    @pesto: isn't what you wrote above also "belittling" and "making misconceptions into rules" about ESTjs? My point is that it's impossible not to make "harmful" comments if we want to openly discuss the types.

    @FDG: indeed.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Florida
    TIM
    ILE 8w9
    Posts
    3,249
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I agree with Kraus.

    Some EXTp's do need to put more effort into knowing themselves and not being assholes/ being shallow. Something I have had to work on myself.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

  22. #22
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thanks for the replies, everyone! Maybe we could all chime in, and create accurate descriptions for all the PoLRs!

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Best example of Fi polr, from a quote of a Kraus post on another forum:


    "Anyways, I know some ESTps, and I usually get along well with most of them. For example, there's this one kid in my gym class, an ESTp. All of my friends think that he's a total jerk / asshole, but I somhow understand it all, and see right through him. When we were running the mile, he was with this other kid (who's not an estp), but they were walking it because they didn't care. So they were purposely blocking off everyone, trying to increase [the runners'] times."

    Instead of letting other people do their duty and finish their task, they prefer to selfishly do nothing and proceed blocking others in order to not to be scolded. Ridicolous!

    (By the way, I do exactly the same with the "fake politness" to strangers. I personally think that nobody can GENUINELY like somebody without knowing him/her)
    Lol, did you purposely leave out the part when he let me go through, but blocked the next few people that were in front of and behind me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    The key thing is the "trick myself into believing that I care and feel". That is precisely how Jung describes . Types who have preference of over will be polite in their behavior, but never trick themselves that they are feeling something they are not.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I think your contribution in this thread to describing the PoLR has been awesome. Especially since many still think that is only about ethical principles. Hats off to you.
    Thanks! Contrary to popular belief, whether you have strong or not doesn't really make a difference on what morals you have, how many you have, and whether you do something about them or not. For example, all people have SOME kind of ethical principals. However a person chooses to behave is a definate part of their morals and ethical principals. For example, if I choose to talk a lot in school, that is part of my ethical principals saying that it's okay for me to talk a lot in school. Same goes for someone who chooses to remain quiet. Another example would be if you deem it inapropriate to jump up on the table at a fancy dinner party and strip and shake your ass around, this is also one of your ethical principals. If you think that it's not good to post gay porn on a Socionics forum, that's also your morals speaking. The difference however, is that often times, types are better at determining what the majority of a group, society or institution's ethical principals are. Because of this, they are often more skilled at choosing how to act, according to what everyone's unspoken principals are given the situation. People with a weaker tend to have more trouble doing this, and thus it takes them much more effort in order to determine how it is acceptable to behave in certain situations. For me, the difficulty for me to connect with people causes me to not understand what their principals are, and therefore, have a tougher time figuring these things out. This doesn't make it impossible, though! Make use of a little , , or some other function in order to figure these things out, and everything fits together in social situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    People that get pissed by anything that describes them in a somewhat not especially positive (Which does not mean negative, just approximaly near the origin of the axis) just can't take any criticism light heartedly and it's only their fault, not the other persons' fault given that most things stated on this forum are opinions and not statements of truth, duh. Seems like common sense but there sure is loads of people that believe otherwise.
    Exactly. And, if whoever is doing the describing is incorrect, feel free to correct them without either party getting offended.

    Diana: I agree that while it is possible to get along well with conflictors, it might take a little effort and adjusting for it to work (like the toning-down of the for example! ) Oh yeah, and thanks for the compliment Diana, and anyone else who provided feedback too!
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  23. #23
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,631
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    Thanks for the replies, everyone! Maybe we could all chime in, and create accurate descriptions for all the PoLRs!

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Best example of Fi polr, from a quote of a Kraus post on another forum:


    "Anyways, I know some ESTps, and I usually get along well with most of them. For example, there's this one kid in my gym class, an ESTp. All of my friends think that he's a total jerk / asshole, but I somhow understand it all, and see right through him. When we were running the mile, he was with this other kid (who's not an estp), but they were walking it because they didn't care. So they were purposely blocking off everyone, trying to increase [the runners'] times."

    Instead of letting other people do their duty and finish their task, they prefer to selfishly do nothing and proceed blocking others in order to not to be scolded. Ridicolous!

    (By the way, I do exactly the same with the "fake politness" to strangers. I personally think that nobody can GENUINELY like somebody without knowing him/her)
    Lol, did you purposely leave out the part when he let me go through, but blocked the next few people that were in front of and behind me?
    Well yeah, I didn't think it was significant for the description.

    By the way, in reagard to what you said about morals; let's point at your example: you say that you decide to speak in class and it's part of your morals; the problem here lies in the fact that many people might be pissed by the fact that you speak a lot and they can't follow the lesson etc etc so probably types are better at making their moral corrispond to a behaviour which doesn't piss other people off.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  24. #24
    Creepy-pokeball

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Jadae: and about the kid's movie cars, I plan on seeing it this weekend with my family
    They'll like it. Im sure you will like it, too. Over the Hedge was pretty fun as well. Bruce Will has a nice voice. Actually, both animations have a similar theme relating to all of this...

  25. #25
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    By the way, in reagard to what you said about morals; let's point at your example: you say that you decide to speak in class and it's part of your morals; the problem here lies in the fact that many people might be pissed by the fact that you speak a lot and they can't follow the lesson etc etc so probably types are better at making their moral corrispond to a behaviour which doesn't piss other people off.
    Exactly my point.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    @pesto: isn't what you wrote above also "belittling" and "making misconceptions into rules" about ESTjs? My point is that it's impossible not to make "harmful" comments if we want to openly discuss the types.
    That "I have yet to discover "depth" in them"? That could mean either that they are shallow, that I've mistyped them, that I don't know them enough or not enough of them.

    Of course no version will fit everyone and it's all opinions. I appreciate (most of ) your posts because they are good descriptions of processes and I think a lot of people do so.

    What I've noticed is that some type descriptions seem less accurate than others and they seem to be from a thinker's point of view. Why else would so many hesitate between INFj/p? I think (general) you should always be careful about speculating in how others experience something. For the reasons mentioned above that goes especially for thinkers trying to guess what it's like inside a feeler's head. If there are more speculations of how feelers think than there are actual stroies from feelers it will be EDIT harder for everyone to understand us and for us to use socioncs.

    And you, Expat, write a lot and rightfully get listened to, which is why I want to ask you to think about this. As I hope you can see this isn't about the word nonconfident, it's about bigger tendencies.







    And for the record, I probably sounded more pissed than (annoyed as) I was because English is my second language. My sense of nuances is limited and that is normally what my writing is all about. Sorry about that.
    INFj

  27. #27
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    I want to bump this to make another point or two.

    ESTps are pretty good at picking up signals that others send off, whether it be voice inflection, movements, body language, social cues etc. They see it with the , process it as having some kind of significance, but don't know what the fuck it all means, unless they do hours of painful analyzation afterwards.

    When ESTps see these things, and subjectively interperate it as being negative, they distance themselves from the other person, conciously. Even if this is only perceived and not real, they still do it also. For example, if I'm talking to someone, and they don't really respond in a demonstrative manner, but rather respond with "Yeah," and "Hmmmm...," I'll think, "I must be doing something wrong here, and they probably don't want to talk anymore." In these situations, it matters who I am talking to to provoke a certain reaction. With my friends, I can be blunt. I can ask questions, such as, "Does my breath stink?" or "Am I boring the fuck out of you?" and the such, and they'll usually laugh, and give me a good answer in response. Most of the time, they weren't disinterested in the slightest, but of course, I couldn't figure that out. With people who aren't good friends, I can't ask things like that, and this is where the PoLR comes in again. When people respond in a manner which seems negative in my point of view, I can't gauge what exactly the reason for it is. I can't tell if I'm boring them, if I'm being rude, or what the issue is. Maybe they're not even reacting in a negative manner at all in the first place!

    When this happens and I decide that it's not going well, I take the easiest route for me to do: distance myself dramatically. Not only does this protect the PoLR and Hidden Agenda from being exposed to the other person, but it gives me a break so that I can take more time to figure out what exactly was happening, which is often hard to do on the spot in conversation.

    When ESTps aren't really confident on what to do in a social, situation, they sort of act on-guard, and become much more cold and less demonstrative and/or openly active. The motto seems to be that of, "I can't get too close to this person, because if they don't like me, my existance is royally fucked." The times when you are blind to people's thoughts towards you in conversation are the times when you get shat on in public, and get your reputation fucked behind your back without even realizing it yourself. We try to avoid that from happening, by keeping a certain amount of distance from people. That way, if they do do something crappy to you publically, at least you didn't care about them all that much anyways.

    It really hurts like hell to get your PoLR slapped, especially in public. I remember one particular time, back when I was twelve years old. I was at camp, and on the Ropes Course. So this one girl was on this climb called the "Pamper Plank," where you have to climb 43 feet in the air, and jump off this platform and catch a hanging bar that was somewhere between 7 and 8 feet away. (you were on bolay when you do it of course, so you're completely safe). So this girl, she's standing on the plank for a good twenty minutes, not really doing anything, too scared to jump and try it. Of course, this irritated my action-seeking . I wanted to see some action happen! So yeah, like after twenty minutes up there, she doesn't jump, but gets lowered down, sort of crying. So people were crowding around her, asking her things like, "Are you okay?" So me, not thinking before I say stuff, I go, "Why were you up there for so long?" This girl that I know, a year older, glares at me, and goes, "LAURAAA!!!!!" in this really angry tone. The girl who was up there sort of looked at me, but didn't answer. Immediately, I felt like slapping myself in the face multiple times. What the fuck was I thinking, saying something like that? I didn't perceive it as being rude at the time, but apparently, it was. For the rest of the day, I was mentally slapping myself in the face. Let's just say, the car ride home with that girl who slapped my PoLR (not the one up on the climb) was extremely awkward. She didn't seem to care really, but the fact that my PoLR was kicked hard in the hoo-hah caused me to never forget that, and also permanently changed how I respond to people in this kind of situation.

    Another extension of this, is that I'll do things that are completely inapropriate for the situation. Like I'll do things like laugh at a funeral (figuratively, not literally), wear gym shorts and a track jacket to a semi-formal event, or talk to someone in a manner that is not appropriate when taking account into their age and social class or status. Whenever I do these types of things and realize it afterwards, I do the same sort of mental self bitch-slapping.

    When things like this happen, it causes me to develop sort of a protective barrier, or defense mechanism in response. This is why I never let people get too close to me, because it makes the PoLR extremely vulnerable. To this day, albeit the confident exterior, I am often unsure of how to behave in different situations. I usually copy others in this area, assuming whatever they're doing looks relatively plausable and not too stupid.

    More to add later, if I get time. It's good if you've read this far, and feel free to ask any questions concerning this!
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  28. #28
    oyburger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    somewhere overthere
    Posts
    2,528
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You actually gave me alot of insight into why my husband does many of the things he does, and you did it without putting on a facade like he would have when trying to explain the same thing. He has to maintain that he has no weaknesses



    Another extension of this, is that I'll do things that are completely inapropriate for the situation. Like I'll do things like laugh at a funeral (figuratively, not literally), wear gym shorts and a track jacket to a semi-formal event, or talk to someone in a manner that is not appropriate when taking account into their age and social class or status. Whenever I do these types of things and realize it afterwards, I do the same sort of mental self bitch-slapping.
    I've noticed the same kind of actions in my husband but he never seemed too concerned with other's reactions, in fact I usually got the impression that he did it to provoke people. He often has a "Fuck You" attitude and maybe that's why I assumed this.

    When this happens and I decide that it's not going well, I take the easiest route for me to do: distance myself dramatically
    How do you distance yourself? Do you have a large social circle? I know that's an assumption, but my question would be if you do is that out of those people do you purposely keep a large majority of them at a distance and only let a select few really get to know you, while letting the others believe that they know the real you?
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

  29. #29
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger

    When this happens and I decide that it's not going well, I take the easiest route for me to do: distance myself dramatically
    How do you distance yourself? Do you have a large social circle? I know that's an assumption, but my question would be if you do is that out of those people do you purposely keep a large majority of them at a distance and only let a select few really get to know you, while letting the others believe that they know the real you?
    Ahh, good question! When I distance myself, it's usually only when I'm talking to one particular person, rather than a whole group. I generally do it by talking less, becoming more cold, and sort of trying to put an end to the conversation. When it's with a group of people, I do that much less often, because usually I can provoke a good reaction out of at least a few people from the group. And about the friends thing...I do have a lot of them, but after a while, they fade out of friendship if I haven't talked to them for a while. I don't really have an issue with this, because I don't get too attached to people in the first place.

    And a lot of people don't really know the real me. I have somehow figured out how to get people to tell me a ton of stuff about themselves, but keeping any information about myself that could possibly be used against me away from them, and in private. Although I don't really feel the need to keep stuff private about myself (I am relatively open), I figured out that it's to my greatest advantage if I know more about the other person than they do about me. People do think they know the real me, but what they really know is the image that I conciously present to others, which may or may not be much like me at all, depending on the situation.

    I hope that answered everything!
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  30. #30
    oyburger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    somewhere overthere
    Posts
    2,528
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    I hope that answered everything!
    Yes actually that answered quite a few questions about many of the ESTp people I've had in my life. Thank you for being so open about your motives, the others weren't and often left me confused.

    But I love ESTps! You remind me of a non-penised, non-coked up version of my husband at your age
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

  31. #31
    Elro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    2,796
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This entire thread strikes a bit close to home.

    So, I have a question for you Herzy: How does Fi PoLR vary between ENTps and ESTps?
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Holy mud-wrestling bipolar donkeys, Batman!

    Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.


    I pity your souls

  32. #32

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    601
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Great post, Herzy. That explains EVERYTHING!
    INFP

  33. #33
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elro
    This entire thread strikes a bit close to home.

    So, I have a question for you Herzy: How does Fi PoLR vary between ENTps and ESTps?
    I don't know, because I'm not an ENTp. I'm guessing you are, so if you have time, could you add anything or make a quick comparison as to what it's like for you? Thanks.


    Chibi: Michelle definately seems like an ESTp, at least compared to myself, from what you've written. J-Chan could be one too!

    Great post, Herzy. That explains EVERYTHING!
    Thanks!
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  34. #34

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    6,074
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    I'm bumping this, to bring this back up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    One of the last major ways that the PoLR has an effect is on how I interact with people. I could use all the I want, and that creates a happy-effect on the people I talk with. However, I rarely actually feel the things that I show outwardly. One way I notice this is when my ESI mom introduces me to one of her friends, I smile until my jaw gets tired, do the hand-shaking, high voice, pleasant language, etc. It gives my mom and her friends what they're looking for me to do. However, in reality, I don't really give a shit! It's sort of a pseudo-feeling; I can trick myself into believing that I care and feel the same thing that I'm expressing about whatever I'm doing the to, but that soon passes. This often times takes place when I'm trying to be polite, during social situations and such. I go home sort of empty at times, because of all that faking.
    Her whole first post was the opposite of me, but especially this part.

    Could both ExTPs and ExTJs actually do this sort of "faking" thing? And both IxTJ and IxTP are generally against it?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  35. #35
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, I could see it with the ExTjs being the same way. They have as a role function, which would be easier to actually use than their suggestive function (although they still do like better). IxTj is probably like this, but use the role function a in a similar manner.

    ExTps don't like the using the because of the PoLR, probably the same way that IxTps don't like using the PoLR.

    So yeah, that's my take on it.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  36. #36
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    No, I disagree - -

    To say that ENTjs and ESTjs would find more natural to use their role function than their dual-seeking goes against Gamma and Delta having as a Quadra value, in fact, invalidates the whole concept of quadras.

    There's a lot of talk about people using their role function. The role function is the second weakest function, right after the PoLR. Sure, people will be more inclined to try to use it and improve it than the PoLR, but it's not the same as saying that the role function would be preferred over the dual-seeking.

    If we go to subtypes -- an ENTj intuitive subtype would focus more on and start to resemble an ENFj. But the moment that s/he prefers over , then the border into Beta is crossed.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    6,074
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The part that you said about "going home empty" was kind of surprising to me, since I've never really felt "empty" like that... quite the opposite. And I never "put on a show" or whatever. I find that sickening.

    But... I can't really see myself using Fe or Ne really too much, seems like too much energy. I don't get the whole importance of the 5th function anymore. Fi and Ni seem good enough to me.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  38. #38
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    No, I disagree - -

    To say that ENTjs and ESTjs would find more natural to use their role function than their dual-seeking goes against Gamma and Delta having as a Quadra value, in fact, invalidates the whole concept of quadras.

    There's a lot of talk about people using their role function. The role function is the second weakest function, right after the PoLR. Sure, people will be more inclined to try to use it and improve it than the PoLR, but it's not the same as saying that the role function would be preferred over the dual-seeking.

    If we go to subtypes -- an ENTj intuitive subtype would focus more on and start to resemble an ENFj. But the moment that s/he prefers over , then the border into Beta is crossed.

    I think you might be misunderstanding me.

    I wasn't saying that ExTjs actually LIKE the better than the , but rather, that in an odd social situation, it would probably be more likely that an ExTj would pop in and use , rather than trying to use . I've ovserved the occurance of people occasionally using their role functions much more often than people actually being able to extensively use their suggestive function - and this is where the duals / activities come in.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  39. #39

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    136
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Could both ExTPs and ExTJs actually do this sort of "faking" thing? And both IxTJ and IxTP are generally against it?
    I'm generally against it, but I sometimes do it without even thinking when I'm feeling uncomfortable in a social setting. It's sort of a defense mechanism. If I notice, I'll try to tone it down, but it's hard for me to stop entirely. I have seen my ISTj friend do it as well. She doesn't go overboard with it, though, and it doesn't seem to bother her later, since she seems to just think of it as a sort of protocol. (I don't know if other ISTjs are the same way.)

    I actually can't see ENTjs doing this at all. They seem to try to be as honest and as straightforward as possible, regardless of the social setting. The ENTjs I know are friendly and polite when meeting new people, but never fake. They use Fe, but only to express genuine interest. (At least, I have never seen otherwise.) I don't know any ESTjs well, so I can't comment on their behavior.
    NiTe | Socionix

  40. #40
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,330
    Mentioned
    209 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I would think that it would have something to do with either subtypes, or learned behavior.

    I see ENFps regularly use EITHER Se role or Te (6th) whatever it's called.

    In order for an enfp to use Se role, they have to inhibit/suppress their base function. This is akin to forcing something aside in order to use something else.

    An enfp can also use Ti. To do so, the enfp would suppress their Fi and learn to use the Ti. This feels weird though, as if one is trying to paddle up a creek without a paddle.

    In order for an enfp to use Te whatever (6th), there is no suppression occuring, they just learn how to utilize their Te to complement their Fi.

    In essence, I think each type has certain options the individuals may or may not prefer.
    1. inhibit F1 to use F3
    2. inhibit F2 to use F4
    3. complement F1 w/ F5
    4. complement F2 with F6

    I believe that personal experiences helps a type determine which methods they'll choose.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •