Or is it the exclusive e-type of IEIs?
Can Delta Quadra Types be Enneagram 4?
Or is it the exclusive e-type of IEIs?
Dostoyevski was EII and probably 4w5 sx/sp.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
^^What these two guys said.
Somehow I wonder if ENFp 4s could possibly exist. If so they'd have to be Fi sub.
Socionics is set in 2's (dichotomies)
Enneagram is set in 3's (triads)
Since the basis for each system is incredibly different, consensus on correlation doesn't even seem theoretically possible (Where-as consensus on someone's socionic type is theoretically possible but not yet practically possible).
Because of this a lot of people say "Any socionics type can be any enneagram type" which I guess could be true but some matchups are/shouldBe exceptionally rare (the ones with semi-contradicting descriptions between systems).
Socionics takes dumps on enneagram. (Which prolly has a lot to do with it's binary nature)
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
DoubtfulOriginally Posted by Galen
The only extrovert I could even conceive of as type 4 primary would be EIE.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I probably shouldn't say anythong just now, but I think there are too many problems with strict rules of correlating enneagram with socionocs to attempt it. I'm sure Delta, or any other quadra, Fours are possible, however. Perhaps which type from a triad you become is somehow more type related, so image triad Deltas might be oftener Twos than Fours compared to Betas, or something, but not impossible.
Ahh... My eyes glitter at the news. Good to know they exist. I want an INFj E4. For some reason, I feel that I would be entirely enamoured by one. Looks like I'll have to check out Dostoyevski's works.
I'm not too sure about the socionics-enneagram correlations, though I do have a hard time imagining an LSE E4. You never know till you see one I suppose.
More like C-4.
How is you not being sure on such correlations manage to blurt out you're looking for an EII E4?
You never know...though I do have a hard time imagining an LSE E4. You never know till you see one I suppose.
Of course. I relate a lot to 4 tendencies, but I am not sure yet if I'm a 4 or a 9. I feel quite attracted to ESTj 8s however.
Last edited by 717495; 09-24-2011 at 10:06 AM.
Regarding 4's, I have only not seen ESTj. I have even seen an ESTp 4, which would be the male vocalist in Lady Antebellum. ENTj 4's are pretty cool. Its quite the balance, but theyre rare. I am guessing that ESTj 4's exist, but that they may be quite rare. INFp 4's, on the other hand, are among the more common 4's.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Name traits of E4
Name traits of E4 that enamor you
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
To the first, it's all over the web so I won't bother copy and pasting them.
To the second, everything.
To a more serious answer. I think that they're the most likely type to intrigue me. An INFp self-absorption I might find selfish and perhaps annoyingly whiny. An INFj E4 would be expressing Fi and in its negative form a strange self-defeatism in altruistic melancholy which I will find extremely difficult to resist, and would be impelled to "save" them from themselves. Also, taking into account that I'm E8, such a unique individual inevitably poses a uniquely difficult challenge to last me a very long time, forcing me out of my dry tough shell into the fearsome watery depths of love, or to risk losing it.
A damsel in perpetual distress will end up being quite the distressing damsel. Just a thought. (Goes for men, too.)
Romanticism in delta STs is cute, though. And it's good to know what you want.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
All introverts are self-absorbed and, to a great degree, selfish; all EII are Fi types and all of them have an altruistic melancholic tone in the way they express their emotions towards things that happen with regards to the sadness that surrounds the world because we carry a lot on our shoulders. So you're a protector and Matt, my boyfriend relates to that as well.To the first, it's all over the web so I won't bother copy and pasting them.
To the second, everything.
To a more serious answer. I think that they're the most likely type to intrigue me. An INFp self-absorption I might find selfish and perhaps annoyingly whiny. An INFj E4 would be expressing Fi and in its negative form a strange self-defeatism in altruistic melancholy which I will find extremely difficult to resist, and would be impelled to "save" them from themselves. Also, taking into account that I'm E8, such a unique individual inevitably poses a uniquely difficult challenge to last me a very long time, forcing me out of my dry tough shell into the fearsome watery depths of love, or to risk losing it.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
All Fj types do this -- just differently. Its not about introversion or extroversion, but the ease of which Fj types lose themselves in others or the relations. Just as Fe dominants can so easily reach into others and pull out the hidden, and sometimes not-so-hidden, subjective, information, Fi types can so easily read the hidden information between others. And, as all 4 are related informatically, both sets can do both things easily --to a degree. Fj's, as a whole, are always high risk for losing themselves in others, whether single people, the relations, their relations, or groups. In a sense, all 4 are other-absorbed. Self-absorbed, on the other hand, is a bit of a tricky slope because the contraction of words is to tangential.
If there are ESTj 4's, I'd assume they are of Si subtype. A fatal flaw with 4's is both their laziness due to getting caught up in lord knows what and their ease in which they can slip into fantasy, and as has been brought up -- self-absorption. This, I believe, is their mode of escape. Te, specifically of the dominant Delta form within the ESTj type, is anything but this form of self-absorption. Theyre HIGHLY capable of other forms of self-absorption, especially regarding with their lack of foresight and perceptive bias towards their specific, efficient needs, but they are not specifically self-absorbed in the way 4's are prone to.
In contrast, here is an example of an ENTj 4w5. Granted, he is sexually flaming, but he is definitely an ENTj.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Verreos
And, yeah, Ive seen every episode of this show
He is a very interesting combo because the dominant Te is definitely expressed strongly, but the 4 counterpart of him softens the tone immensely. Most 4s are easy to socio-type because they cannot help but express their being, and they likely are so very unaware that they are doing so.
No, not really. Where an Fe type might be impacted by external happenings and trying to figure out what to do in a situation that directly involves them and emotions/actions in a situation, an Fi type might not care and might only be concerned about their values about what's happening or their own comfort in that situation. Introverts are really self-centered, after all, they have the subjective additive to situations.All Fj types do this -- just differently. Its not about introversion or extroversion, but the ease of which Fj types lose themselves in others or the relations. Just as Fe dominants can so easily reach into others and pull out the hidden, and sometimes not-so-hidden, subjective, information, Fi types can so easily read the hidden information between others. And, as all 4 are related informatically, both sets can do both things easily --to a degree. Fj's, as a whole, are always high risk for losing themselves in others, whether single people, the relations, their relations, or groups. In a sense, all 4 are other-absorbed. Self-absorbed, on the other hand, is a bit of a tricky slope because the contraction of words is to tangential.
If there are ESTj 4's, I'd assume they are of Si subtype. A fatal flaw with 4's is both their laziness due to getting caught up in lord knows what and their ease in which they can slip into fantasy, and as has been brought up -- self-absorption. This, I believe, is their mode of escape. Te, specifically of the dominant Delta form within the ESTj type, is anything but this form of self-absorption. Theyre HIGHLY capable of other forms of self-absorption, especially regarding with their lack of foresight and perceptive bias towards their specific, efficient needs, but they are not specifically self-absorbed in the way 4's are prone to.
In contrast, here is an example of an ENTj 4w5. Granted, he is sexually flaming, but he is definitely an ENTj.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Verreos
And, yeah, Ive seen every episode of this show
He is a very interesting combo because the dominant Te is definitely expressed strongly, but the 4 counterpart of him softens the tone immensely. Most 4s are easy to socio-type because they cannot help but express their being, and they likely are so very unaware that they are doing so.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I'm not specifically sure that you quite understand what I mean.
Many Russian websites assign EII typing to Dostoyevsky and IEI to Esenin and imho they have them typed wrong. Dostoyevsky's works have that Ni-Ti existential heaviness to them, while Esenin was most likely a Fi-Ne ego and a 4.
You can compare them for yourself. Here is a collection of translations of Esenin's poems: http://samlib.ru/w/wagapow_a/yesen.shtml
He already did change his E-type, I'm still waiting for a change of sociotype for he said I won't see a change coming from him.
I'm banking on them tiring of distress, and shift to moments of calm and serenity.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've not seen it in the INFj E9s I know IRL, who are more toned down and less expressive. I would expect INFj E4s to be externally cold, hiding currents of emotion under the surface, which when uncovered contain overwhelming sensitivity and depth, yet restrained from full expression in silent self-torture.
Interesting. I would agree with the bolded.
I've not read Dostoevsky's poetry so I can't compare, but I've managed to force myself through half of his Crime and Punishment at one time and I agree that it has a pretty existentialist theme. It's weird like Camus' The Stranger and Kafka's Metamorphosis.
FWIW, I quite like Esenin's poems (as per the link you posted), which are relatively simple and easy to read.
I've randomly picked one: Does this sound more NiFe or FiNe and why?
That sounds appropriate. My mother is an INFj 9, and she is warm for Delta Fi, but like most 9s, she reserves energy. An INFj 4 would be a completely different aspect.
Extracting type from a single stanza is not a very certain method, but just for the kicks here goes:FWIW, I quite like Esenin's poems (as per the link you posted), which are relatively simple and easy to read.
I've randomly picked one: Does this sound more NiFe or FiNe and why?
First and second sentences suggest that he has sentimental attachment to his "country side", physical location that he considers to be his home, and that he possesses certain attentiveness to his own mood states. This vaguely hints at Fi coupled with Si.
Third line is an example of anthropomorphism or perhaps even animism (no way to tell for sure here). He is assigning human emotion states to birch trees. Same is occurring in second line where "country side" is portrayed as if it is wearing "a shroud". However, the attributes assigned to both are static; he is as if taking snapshots of these physical objects and then assigning them animate traits. This again points towards Fi-Si.
Last line there is a depersonalizing instance, suggested metaphorical death, that is accompanied by him asking a question that starts with inquiry of "who". According to Serious/Merry dichotomy this is attributed to serious types i.e. types that value TeFi.
Trying to analyze this stanza from point of view of Ni-Fe I can't really come up with any semantics to 'grab' to assign the Ni, Fe or Ti functions.
Siuntal, that was beautiful. I haven't added you to my self typing, I type you IEI.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-09-2011 at 12:01 AM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
huh? did you mean you type me as EII?... I am not as EII and confirmed.
lol sorry IEI is what I meant. OOPPSSSyhuh? did you mean you type me as EII?... I am not as EII and confirmed.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
That was a really nice analysis, thanks.
Some introversion, Fi, and Si valuing is apparent. I think you're right in calling Esenin an EII.
I dont know. I'd be easy to type based on my creative writing: poetry classes. People tend to have to reach deep or be conceptually clever to make progress with such writing types so poems tend to bring a part of that person in, whether the writer likes it or not.
Delta 4 says hi.
Seriously, from where come the need to reverse well know typing ? From what ive read, I agree that Dotoevsky is an archetypal EII... Existential heaviness arent the domain of Ni-Ti only...Many Russian websites assign EII typing to Dostoyevsky and IEI to Esenin and imho they have them typed wrong. Dostoyevsky's works have that Ni-Ti existential heaviness to them
And, when you go outside published stuff from Dotoevsky, some source about our dear Fyodor indicate more a 5w6/6w5 than a 4, too. Imo this thread come from a general mess about what is a 4, including wrong description in the enneagram itself.
For enneagram... In my case, ive take some time to determine myself beetween 6 and 4, and it wasnt a easy stuff. Some description of 4 fit me really more than 6, but finally, having read, read , read and read cuz I knowed some things was wrong, ive come to the conclusion that im six, even if i dont find me into all what is said, especially on the "inside/self" part. Some recent description of six are better than older where six appeared like total sheep dumbass, and take now into consideration internal thinking/emotion, anyway. Ive learned after that this is cuz im sx/sp, and sx/sp six often mystipe as 4.
For giving an answer which is a bit less off topic, I think that E4 is quasi exclusively reserved to IEI/EIE-Ni. INFj who have typed 4 in the literature (van gogh, uncle Doto) are simply not 4. Its a bit similar to what ive said about the INFp bias : anyone who have made a seemingly interesting stuff into art/mysterious things/philosophy/obnoxious to contemporary suddenly become a IEI without more need to analyze ; it seem to be the same for ennea 4.
"The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."
-- Maurice Chapelain
You might be making the very easy and common mistake of confusing Aristocratic sx-ness for Betaness. Contrary to the implicit stereotype, Deltas can have an existential longing and perception of deep human suffering; IMHO it stems most deeply from the more intrinsically worldly Aristocratic perspective (the "we're all in this together" mentality) and the sx tendency to both take everything personally and have violent emotional upheavals
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Fourish enough, not entirely sure if it's Delta though.
What have you read of Dostoyesvsky, and what is it about it that convinced you that he is EII? Esenin's verses does sound more INFj than INFp, if you would take a quick read at the link siuntal posted.
What does being a 4 mean to you?
I'll take note of your opinion.
I agree. I have several IEI friends who couldn't care less about such stuff.
FTR, I'm very drawn to existentialism myself and find it an interesting philosophy, so there probably is something to this. The bolded is an interesting observation. This sort of thing is what makes me wonder if the enneagram is in fact a superior theory to socionics.Contrary to the implicit stereotype, Deltas can have an existential longing and perception of deep human suffering; IMHO it stems most deeply from the more intrinsically worldly Aristocratic perspective (the "we're all in this together" mentality) and the sx tendency to both take everything personally and have violent emotional upheavals
Try Prince Myshkin in Dostoevsky's "The Idiot". Definite-base/
-vulnerable.
I remember strrrng highlighting some excellent Se PoLR moments from Notes from the Underground.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Thread cleaned. Posts moved to http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=37355. Enjoy yourselves over there.
Given my impression of it as a perfect ILI portrait we'll have to split the difference at INTx.
Thanks, I'll look it up.Try Prince Myshkin in Dostoevsky's "The Idiot". Definite
Where would this thread be? I couldn't find it.
Oh, I just meant talking to me, I don't think it's anywhere on the forum.
The most vivid example was something in a restaurant, he was hiding from something? It was this scene where he just becomes totally overwhelmed by his environment and is just trying to hide and have "peace" but everywhere he goes he is confronted with some caricatured intrusion on his attempt to calm himself down.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Personally I think Dostoyevski is EII. From what I have skimmed of his works in philo classes and notes I think Fi is very obvious.Given my impression of it as a perfect ILI portrait we'll have to split the difference at INTx.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I agree E4 isnt limited to IEI. What Ashton said.
I think Soeren Kierkegaard might have been, one though Im not sure what subtype of ENFp he was.
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