View Poll Results: what is John Lennon's type?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    4 80.00%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    0 0%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    0 0%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    1 20.00%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    0 0%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    0 0%
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Thread: John Lennon

  1. #1

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    Default John Lennon

    Can't wait to hear thoughts on this one.

    "You make your own dream. That's the Beatles' story, isn't it? That's Yoko's story. That's what I'm saying now. Produce your own dream. If you want to save Peru, go save Peru. It's quite possible to do anything, but not to put it on the leaders and the parking meters. Don't expect Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan or John Lennon or Yoko Ono or Bob Dylan or Jesus Christ to come and do it for you. You have to do it yourself. That's what the great masters and mistresses have been saying ever since time began. They can point the way, leave signposts and little instructions in various books that are now called holy and worshiped for the cover of the book and not for what it says, but the instructions are all there for all to see, have always been and always will be. There's nothing new under the sun. All the roads lead to Rome. And people cannot provide it for you. I can't wake you up. You can wake you up. I can't cure you. You can cure you." — John Lennon

    quotes:
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...hn_lennon.html
    http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0006168/quo..._=m_nm_trv_trv





    Last edited by silke; 12-25-2015 at 08:50 PM. Reason: updated links

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    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    Can't wait to hear thoughts on this one.
    You mean his type? Obviously ILE.

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    Ti-ENTp

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    Oh wow...I thought there would be a lot more arguing over it

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    I wrote a bunch of stuff, but I don't want to bother posting it when people mostly ignore what I write and just assert what they think, as if my reasoning isn't for their own intellectual benefit to consider or argue against/for.

    I'll wait and see what Vero, Ineffable, Labcoat, Krig, Gilly, LucidDreams, Jonathon, EyeSeeCold, HotelAmbush, Marie, Kamajama, brilliand, strnnng, Traveler, Subterranean, or Jerksies says, if they choose to post. Then maybe I'll post it.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    He's self-evidently very very heavily Intuitive, which I suspect is where this strange ILE typing is coming from. But he's clearly not an NT Researcher -- his view of the world is passionate and emotional, not scientific and logical. He's an NF Humanitarian. His body language isn't rigid enough to be a Rational type, and his high levels of emotion and emotional influence make it likely he's a Merry type, leading to the conclusion that he's IEI. This is not a surprising conclusion, as the IEI is known as "The Lyricist" or "The Poet" or "The Romantic", and he clearly fits square in the middle of that stereotype.

    I'd say that he's a Dominant IEI, and in specific probably an eie-IEI. His ideas demonstrate a Vulnerable Te type's naivete about how the world works and how ideas are implemented in practical terms, but he speaks with such conviction that it's hard not to get caught up in it, something I've observed is characteristic of Dominant IEIs.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    for the record, i agree with krig...i think he's beta nf anyways

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    I have him as an EIE of undetermined subtype right now, probably Ni-EIE; Beta NF and Dialectical-Algorithmic seems right on to me, and the thought of him being Paul's Supervisee is one that I like...

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    John > Paul

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    I don't see any NF or Fe ego. He's so dry and calculative in his interviews, he comes off like an overly serious ENTp there who gets wrapped up in essential logical principles to frame his thoughts and he's so static EP energy. If he's using Fe its in the spur of the moment, not something that comes constantly natural to him like with INFps. Most of the time he will support Fe here and there but not be involved or attached to it as a complete process. Although he has some stereotypical "humanitarian" interests or points of view, this is like a number of people of all types who I know. Also, where in the Augusta rulebook can ENTps not be passionate (at least in the language used and frame of mind)? If he's INFp or ENFj, then point to one who is like him--I would like to know one who lacks in the Fe department so comparatively, and one who is so bright into potential energy and infantile games, versus the INFp tranquil, emotionally accessible, deep gazing sort (don't overlook how real INFps come across compared to him, and don't mistake infantile games for fine-tuned Fe.) This guy is sometimes a carbon copy of my Ti-ENTp brother, doesn't remind me at all of my INFp sister. He's very "excited" and gets talkative like an ENXp, versus "emotive" and "influential" like an Fe ego. Most is based on my own experience so thought I'd share. It's pretty obvious just watching the guy, nonetheless listening to him for a while.

    Also his wife Yoko Ono seems ISFp. Compare the two: one Fe ego, and one Ti ego. There's an obvious difference and a vivid synergy between Fe egos and Ti egos.
    Last edited by 717495; 09-19-2011 at 09:19 AM.

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    Never liked this guy. I mean music is not that terrible but he wears glasses. I hate men wearing glasses, it wakes the beast in me or something. He needs a wash and a haircut. I'm damn alright with women wearing glasses, though. Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    He's self-evidently very very heavily Intuitive, which I suspect is where this strange ILE typing is coming from. But he's clearly not an NT Researcher -- his view of the world is passionate and emotional, not scientific and logical. He's an NF Humanitarian. His body language isn't rigid enough to be a Rational type, and his high levels of emotion and emotional influence make it likely he's a Merry type, leading to the conclusion that he's IEI. This is not a surprising conclusion, as the IEI is known as "The Lyricist" or "The Poet" or "The Romantic", and he clearly fits square in the middle of that stereotype.
    I'm quite surprised at your conclusions. You use the clubs in a sterotypical manner. It sounds like you don't know that many ILEs personally? I think it's quite common for ILEs to be passionate, and very sensitive in moral matters. (His obsession with peace can actually be seen as Fi polr, it's an inflexible all-or-nothing attitude, psychologically speaking)

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post

    Also his wife Yoko Ono seems ISFp. .
    I have her as Ni-harmonizing-SEI. And John as C-ILE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    I'm quite surprised at your conclusions. You use the clubs in a sterotypical manner. It sounds like you don't know that many ILEs personally? I think it's quite common for ILEs to be passionate, and very sensitive in moral matters. (His obsession with peace can actually be seen as Fi polr, it's an inflexible all-or-nothing attitude, psychologically speaking)
    I know quite a few ILEs in person, actually, which is one reason why I'm so sure Lennon isn't one. ILEs can get excited and energetic, and their 2-d Fe makes them more emotional than, say, LIIs, who have 1-d Fe, but I wouldn't say that their primary view of the world is rooted in emotion and passion like John Lennon's clearly was. For all their excitability, ILEs are logical types who view the world in a logical way. The majority of their decisions and goals are made for logical reasons, not emotional ones. They're primarily driven by curiosity and a desire to explore and understand the world, not by passion and a desire to influence people emotionally.

    I don't really understand how Fi-PoLR would create an inflexible all-or-nothing attitude. I've never encountered that view before. Could you explain, so that I can understand your reasoning?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    I think it's quite common for ILEs to be passionate, and very sensitive in moral matters. (His obsession with peace can actually be seen as Fi polr, it's an inflexible all-or-nothing attitude, psychologically speaking)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikisocion
    Vulnerable function

    The vulnerable function is also called the Point or Place of Least Resistance (PoLR) or sensitive function. The element in this function creates a feeling of frustration and inadequacy. A person does not understand the importance of this element entirely, and it can easily lead to painful consequences if not adequately considered.

    However, to directly engage this function creates feelings of insecurity and distress.
    Not meaning to hack on you, but with the above in mind, conceptually the PoLR would come off harsher, more forceful, more demanding in its expression because it comes from a place of fear/anxiety. Does this seem in line with his Fi?

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    I think he's on a psychological level above most people, making him difficult to type. ENTp seemed right for a while until I saw this video, where beta NF seems more in line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    He's self-evidently very very heavily Intuitive, which I suspect is where this strange ILE typing is coming from.
    Very well said. When people see someone very intuitive, then tend think Ne, but we can blame Augusta, because some of her definitions tend to lead people in that direction.

    His goals mentioned in this video do seem very Beta/IEI oriented...this sort of vague let's all have peace and change the world, without really thinking about how one would technically do that, but instead thinking that you can just promote the concept and have it all happen. Whatever type his is, he's playing a Beta role here.

    I always thought he looked NT, but it's probably the glasses. Those round glasses are the quintessential intellectual look.

    Of course people will wonder how he could be NF if Paul McCartney is SF, but that shouldn't even be an issue. It's not as if they read Socionics and decided to only collaborate with people in the same quadra.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Of course people will wonder how he could be NF if Paul McCartney is SF, but that shouldn't even be an issue. It's not as if they read Socionics and decided to only collaborate with people in the same quadra.
    Yeah, and in fact, the way they started to clash and eventually broke up suggests at least two quadras at play there. I'd expect a single-quadra group, if they parted ways, to do so more amicably.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Does introtim (however you spell it) really fit him? I have a hard time seeing him as kindred to an ILI. The contrast is too different for me to not say anything about it.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magna View Post
    Does introtim (however you spell it) really fit him? I have a hard time seeing him as kindred to an ILI. The contrast is too different for me to not say anything about it.
    Introtim is an abbreviation of "Introverted TIM", and TIM stands for "Type of Information Metabolism". It's mainly used by the Russians; you don't see it very often among English-speaking socionists.

    I could see someone making a cogent argument for EIE, but my impression is that he's too dreamy and head-in-the-clouds for a Base Fe type. From what I know of him thus far, I think Dominant IEI sufficiently explains the evidence. I could certainly be swayed by a convincing argument, though.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    I think he's on a psychological level above most people, making him difficult to type. ENTp seemed right for a while until I saw this video, where beta NF seems more in line.
    That's not my impression, but which Beta NF do you have in mind (who do you think he's like)?

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    I can see the case for ILE too. The content of what's he's talking about in the video... "let's all have peace" seems IEI-like. However, the way he talks about switching peoples' mindset...seeing things in a different way, as in we all think this is how it works, but actually if we thought differently we could have peace now and forever....could be seen as static Ne.

    I do notice that the formula of "you all think this way, but you could think this other way [which seems absurd]" is characteristic of base Ne types, and ILE types in particular.

    Perhaps typing him is a little harder because we're used to ILE types in scientific examples.

    In real life, people tend to mix themes that appear to relate to different quadras...I see it as sort of like "making connections in the mind."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I could certainly be swayed by a convincing argument, though.
    I'll give my argument then. There's so much to consider in typing that I feel like I could write a book just on semantics/concepts and philosophy. I don't really like the idea of assigning modes of thought, like IEIs being dreamy, to the types rather than looking at perception. Even though that might be statistically true from the consensus of many people for the IEI type, someone could be IEI and not that dreamy. It's hard to accept such rationale without a firm fundamental concept to support it; otherwise I don't have a way to gauge how reasonable your conclusion is other than to say whether it fits into a system of typing thought or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    I can see the case for ILE too. The content of what's he's talking about in the video... "let's all have peace" seems IEI-like.
    It's really only a matter of opinion that IEI is equivalent to "let's all have peace" though. Ni by Jung is symbolic pattern matching/making of a reflective nature. I don't really see the symbolism in the way that Lennon thinks in his interviews or in his music either. He also has an aversion to questions that ask him to make generalizations about the people around him in one interview in a passive-aggressive reluctant manner (reluctant Ti, Te-valuing); the interviewer asked him if drugs are a problem in the industry and after saying he doesn't know rudely, he said none of the people he knows does drugs rather tersely as if this is something that has been used against him before and he's bitter about making such associations (I've seen this as a big characteristic of Ti PoLR and something even Galen periodically engages in). His ideas are also centralized around giving power to the people, explaining how a complex reality can be generalized into coming together to make the world a better place (Fi).

    The idealism of a Ti should involve some form of impersonal reason because by the concept of splitting thinking/feeling Ti is an impersonal structure of thought. Like thinking socialism is a great idea because by reason it sounds great - we help each other by taking only what we need to be happy while helping others to get what they need to be happy. But ILE idealism appeals to an internal structure of logos, not one of pathos, which is what Lennon made a career doing.

    However, the way he talks about switching peoples' mindset...seeing things in a different way, as in we all think this is how it works, but actually if we thought differently we could have peace now and forever....could be seen as static Ne.

    I do notice that the formula of "you all think this way, but you could think this other way [which seems absurd]" is characteristic of base Ne types, and ILE types in particular.
    Yeah, exactly. But he absorbs and reflects the emotional feelings of the people around him and used that as a force for his message and music. His arguments are very structured, closely resembling Ti, but it's not based on facts and is rather personal in his analysis. By convention creative Ti has a strong Te function in the ILE/SLE that engages and constantly informs its conclusions. How do you think of the concepts behind the elements then, specifically Ti?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magna View Post
    His arguments are very structured, closely resembling Ti, but it's not based on facts and is rather personal in his analysis. By convention creative Ti has a strong Te function in the ILE/SLE that engages and constantly informs its conclusions. How do you think of the concepts behind the elements then, specifically Ti?
    I haven't had much time to form a definite opinion of Lennon's type. Originally, I thought IEI not just because of an opinion that IEI is associated with having peace, but because at first glance the idea of changing the world with emphasis on the social aspects but not on the logical technicalities (e.g., what are the barriers to peace and how do we handle those) suggested both Beta/ethical.

    But afterwards, I thought the intuition seems of a static type, as mentioned in my previous post.

    From your post, at first I thought you were arguing for IEE, but I think you're actually arguing for LII (?).

    The idea that "By convention creative Ti has a strong Te function in the ILE/SLE that engages and constantly informs its conclusions" is interesting. I know the 8th function is strong in model A and often considered stronger than the ignoring function. But does that mean that it's used constantly and is what an observer would primarily observe? I'd be interested in clarification or articles on that. It might explain why peoples' typings are constantly flipped from each other in terms of quadra.

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    I once thought that he was EIE; however, now I'm slightly more inclined to think that he's ESE - Hugo.

    John Lennon is my favorite musician. I've read several books on him. (The one I'd recommend is "Lennon: A Life," which tells his entire story from childhood to Mark David Chapman.)

    Personally, I think that Lennon's bias for Fe is obvious -- and it seems to be to everyone who's written thus far in this thread.

    His songs, after "In My Life" when he came into his own, were either deeply felt or playful -- sometimes a bit caustic, but always with humor. He was very adept at making people feel certain emotions, which would be very strange for a ILE -- who is attracted to such people but does not possess such skill him/herself.

    Yoko strikes me as being of Ij temperament, just as John strikes me as being of Ej temperament.

    If one reads about John and Yoko, one learns things like they followed strict macrobiotic diets, that Lennon became a "househusband" for five years toward the end of the 70s, and those they were the most fulfilling years of his life... That when asked to write songs for an album, he would write them in a rush whereas Paul had his prepared months, even years in advance. (Lennon would complain that his songs were always "rushed," whereas George Martin -- a Delta, in my opinion -- took more time with Paul's, so Lennon complained.)


    I don't believe that John and Paul were duals. They more likely had a "business" relationship, which turned increasingly to competition after their manager Brian Epstein - a INTj, in my opinion - died in the mid-60s. From Rubber Soul onward they only wrote 1 song together -- "I've Got A Feeling" on Let it Be, which was just a mash of two songs they'd both written apart. During that period, all of their other songs were either John, Paul, or George songs -- as opposed to "band" songs. (Ringo only wrote two songs while in the group.)

    For the rest of his life, according to Yoko, John felt as though he was competing against Paul (and to lesser degrees, people like Bob Dylan and Paul Simon,) and he envied their successes.

    Lennon enjoyed rousing company and became part of a group in the mid-70s that dubbed itself "The Hollywood vampires" -- Lennon, Keith Moon, Ringo, Alice Cooper, and Harry Nilsson, who would all drink themselves into oblivion at the Roxy on Sunset in LA (I think it's on Sunset.) John was addicted to heroin for awhile during the early 70s, as was Yoko. Yoko's addiction returned just before Lennon was shot.

    All of this strikes me as ESE behavior... Exaggerated, but ESE behavior nonetheless.
    Last edited by JuJu; 09-22-2011 at 07:59 AM.

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    Nah, I think he's IEE. All the songs I know of that he wrote himself were describing things statically and he comes off communicating that way as well. It seems to me he's generalizing the humanitarian existence of living.

    These are some of his song lyrics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds
    Here come old flattop he come grooving up slowly
    He got joo-joo eyeball he one holy roller
    He got hair down to his knee
    Got to be a joker he just do what he please

    He wear no shoeshine he got toe-jam football
    He got monkey finger he shoot coca-cola
    He say "I know you, you know me"
    One thing I can tell you is you got to be free
    Come together right now over me

    He bag production he got walrus gumboot
    He got Ono sideboard he one spinal cracker
    He got feet down below his knee
    Hold you in his armchair you can feel his disease
    Come together right now over me

    He roller-coaster he got early warning
    He got muddy water he one mojo filter
    He say "One and one and one is three"
    Got to be good-looking 'cause he's so hard to see
    Come together right now over me
    Quote Originally Posted by Come Together
    Picture yourself in a boat on a river
    With tangerine trees and marmalade skies
    Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly
    A girl with kaleidoscope eyes

    Cellophane flowers of yellow and green
    Towering over your head
    Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes
    and she's gone

    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds, ah

    Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain
    Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies
    Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers
    that grow so incredibly high

    Newspaper taxies appear on the shores
    Waiting to take you away
    Climb in the back with your head in the clouds
    and you're gone

    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds, ah

    Picture yourself on a train in a station
    With plasticine porters with looking glass ties
    Suddenly someone is there at the turnstile
    The girl with kaleidoscope eyes

    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds, ah
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds
    Lucy in the sky with diamonds, ah
    Quote Originally Posted by working class hero
    As soon as you're born they make you feel small
    By giving you no time instead of it all
    Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
    A working class hero is something to be
    A working class hero is something to be

    They hurt you at home and they hit you at school
    They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool
    Till you're so crazy you can't follow their rules
    A working class hero is something to be
    A working class hero is something to be

    When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years
    Then they expect you to pick a career
    When you can't really function you're so full of fear
    [From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/j/john-l...ro-lyrics.html ]
    A working class hero is something to be
    A working class hero is something to be

    Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
    And you think you're so clever and classless and free
    But you're still peasants as far as I can see
    A working class hero is something to be
    A working class hero is something to be

    There's room at the top they are telling you still
    But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
    If you want to be like the folks on the hill
    A working class hero is something to be
    A working class hero is something to be

    If you want to be a hero, well, just follow me
    If you want to be a hero, well, just follow me

    compared with someone like Kurt Cobain that fit the dynamic symbolic nature of Ni.

    I'm so happy
    Cause today I found my friends
    They're in my head

    I'm so ugly
    But that's ok, 'cause so are you
    We've broke our mirrors
    Sunday morning
    Is everyday for all I care
    And I'm not scared
    Light my candles
    In a daze 'cause I've found god

    Yeah he he yeah

    I'm so lonely and
    That's ok, I shaved my head
    And I'm not sad
    And just maybe
    I'm to blame for all I've heard
    And I'm not sure

    I'm so excited
    I can't wait to meet you there
    And I dont' care
    I'm so horny but
    That's ok, my will is good

    Yeah he he yeah

    I like it
    I'm not gonna crack
    I miss you
    I'm not coming back
    I love you
    I'm not gonna crack
    I killed you
    I'm not coming back
    I like it
    I'm not gonna crack
    I miss you
    I'm not coming back
    I love you
    I'm not gonna crack
    I killed you
    I'm not coming back
    Load up on guns and
    Bring your friends
    It's fun to lose
    And to pretend
    She's over bored
    And self assured
    Oh no, I know
    A dirty word

    hello, hello, hello, how low?

    With the lights out it's less dangerous
    Here we are now
    Entertain us
    I feel stupid and contagious
    Here we are now
    Entertain us
    A mulatto
    An albino
    A mosquito
    My Libido
    Yeah

    I'm worse at what I do best
    And for this gift I feel blessed
    Our little group has always been
    And always will until the end

    hello, hello, hello, how low?

    With the lights out it's less dangerous
    Here we are now
    Entertain us
    I feel stupid and contagious
    Here we are now
    Entertain us
    A mulatto
    An albino
    A mosquito
    My Libido
    Yeah

    And I forget
    Just why I taste
    Oh yeah, I guess it makes me smile
    I found it hard
    It's hard to find
    Oh well, whatever, nevermind

    hello, hello, hello, how low?

    With the lights out it's less dangerous
    Here we are now
    Entertain us
    I feel stupid and contagious
    Here we are now
    Entertain us
    A mulatto
    An albino
    A mosquito
    My Libido
    Yeah, a denial
    A denial
    A denial...
    I admit Working Class Hero was a bit more Ni for John, but I think he was kind of depressed when he wrote it. Most of his songs don't have this style. Across the World was pretty Ni though, but he didn't write that by himself, so I don't know if it would be good material for building an argument with.

    I mean, I don't know, I have a hard time communicating what I'm thinking, and sometimes I'm wrong, maybe everything I've said before this sounds stupid, but is this at least clear? Ni is like incomplete statements and symbolic association that evolve. Ne an idea that is more of a complete convincing or suggestive statement. Ne paints a mental picture that can closely resemble "ideas" at times. But it's not really that simply so. John seemed to be Ne over the other Jungian functions, although Ni would be my next best fit.

    The other thing is, some people tend to want to explain things away with the demonstrative. And I'm not sure how to even talk about this because any assumption won't be completely correct. But if we look at type as genetic, then PoLR is a consequence of the unconscious exploration of the demonstrative function being 'hampered', as it would. In this light, your creative is really both extroverted and introverted, the unconscious part more likely being the catalyst for the flexible nature of the creative. What's interesting about this is that introverts can confuse themselves as thinking their demonstrative is an ego function; by the nature of extroversion, it would be more obvious for the extrovert not to misinterpret, essentially. Point is though, the unconscious nature of the demonstrative function isn't a light consideration because it's what forms the instinctual drive. And it's a big intuitive leap to grasp the PoLR from this aspect of resistance to your will; then the PoLR is more a projection of pain and insecurity than something you aren't capable of doing or feel weakness in. It's so easy for me to understand it this way.

  27. #27
    JuJu's Avatar
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    As to the suggestion IEE : if indeed Lennon values Ne and not Ni (and I am open-minded to both suggestions,) in my opinion, what sticks out most about him to me is his adept use of Fe to alter a listeners perspective, or mood, (e.g. "Working Class Hero" as was cited above is a good example -- although I've read that Lennon labored intensely over that song to make it a modern "we shall overcome.") A more typical Lennon Fe song is "Hey Bulldog" off of the "Magical Mystery Tour" album, or "I Am The Walrus" -- they're extravagantly imaginative in a sort of free-association, yet cleverly formatted and thoughtful way (a la his hero, Lewis Carroll, or Dr. Seuss, for that matter,) which make them kind of 'in jokes.'

    For Lennon, songs like "Imagine" and "All You Need Is Love" -- those for which he's become practically a secular saint in the West -- were rare compared with songs like, say, "Meat City" from his late period solo career. The latter doesn't mean much -- and Lennon, I believe, did that on purpose so as not to make his records too "heavy." A song like "Hey Buldog" has nearly nonsense lyrics with a refrain of "You can talk to me," (meaningful) and "I Am The Walrus" -- well, it's a classic -- and I think that it says a lot that this song was Lennon's personal favorite that he'd written in the Beatles. Both songs are amusing, and somewhat goofy, and wildly imaginative -- in the vein of Lennon's artistic hero, Lewis Carroll, or to give an American example, Dr. Seuss.

    When Lennon did try to make a "heavy" record -- it was called "Sometime in New York City" and was his third solo release -- it fell flat. He said that he considered it a snapshot of the (ugly) times and that it was meant to be listened to like one would read a newspaper... Like a newspaper, many of his fans felt like maybe it was best to throw away after the first go at it. (In fact, Yoko sounds about as good as John on that one with songs like "Angela.") It contains none of the imagination one expects from Lennon, and only Dylan-esque protest songs, e.g. "Luck of the Irish."

    John Lennon's career waned as the 70s progressed -- albeit with 1 big hit that become a #1 due largely to the presence of Lennon's good friend and potential dual, Elton John, (i.e. "Whatever Gets You Through the Night.") After that, realizing that he was artistically spent, he took off 5 years and became a househusband to Yoko and Sean.

    As his later song "Watching the Wheels" pointed out, he "no longer [wanted to] play the game."

    Personally, I would put the chances of Lennon as IEE at medium, with - in my opinion - ILE, ESE, and EIE being better suggestions... Lennon's Fe, I think, is too prominent in both his work and in his interviews for him to be of a "Serious" quadra.
    Last edited by JuJu; 09-22-2011 at 09:43 AM. Reason: forgot a few things.

  28. #28
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Wait let me get this straight...you think Paul was LSE? Wtf?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    @Juju, EIE would be my next typing for him. "All you need is love." is Ne, imo. He's convincing, influencing, by painting a picture, he even admits he it was propaganda, something he liked. It suggests valuing of Ne. And when I watch his interviews I don't see an Fe-leading type either and he seems to display insecurities of an IEE, but not really EIE; but maybe I'm wrong. How do you see it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magna View Post
    @Juju, EIE would be my next typing for him. "All you need is love." is Ne, imo. He's convincing, influencing, by painting a picture, he even admits he it was propaganda, something he liked. It suggests valuing of Ne. And when I watch his interviews I don't see an Fe-leading type either and he seems to display insecurities of an IEE, but not really EIE; but maybe I'm wrong. How do you see it?
    Personally, I think that insecurities are displayed by all Sociotypes, albeit in different areas and for different reasons.

    In John Lennon's case, he was notoriously insecure and wanted his work to be regarded as above reproach, (which helps explain his early competitive feeling toward Bob Dylan. The Beatles WAY outsold Bob Dylan, yet John wanted to be perceived as an 'artist,' like Dylan was, and thus felt like he 'didn't measure up' unless he could be that.)

    When Lennon had positive reinforcement -- e.g., in the early days from Brian Epstein, even though Paul was writing most of the hits through Sgt. Pepper -- Lennon describes feeling more secure about his own abilities, which gave him the confidence to write songs like "Nowhere Man" and "In My Life," which were about himself as opposed to generic (but good) pop songs like "I Wanna Hold Your Hand."

    I've gone and back and forth about John Lennon's type over time, as new information as become available to me -- both in terms of Socionics and in terms of Lennon's biography.

    Personally, right now, I lean strongly toward Fe-base for his type -- primarily due to things in his biographies about his emotional involvement in whatever he did, be it music, or relationships, or art, or social causes, e.g. for the latter (and the first "All We Are Saying Is Give Peace a Chance," and "Working Class Hero;" and his very vocal, liberal stances on politics.

    Lennon participated in "Primal scream" therapy -- and reportedly got a lot out of it, screaming and crying and wailing out his pain until it was gone -- which, for me in attempting to discern his Sociotype, is telling as to Fe. An Fi base, due to the information metabolization of Fi vs Fe, would likely not receive such benefits, and honestly -- valuing Te -- regard the therapy thing as peculiar, (like Paul did.)

    Also, in talking about the Beatles Lennon talks about "the vibe" of a given time period, or album, or song, or person -- this is all indicative, to me, of Fe base. This is what Fe base people sense, in my opinion, (having an Fe base,) and also how they express it.

    EIE vs. ESE, in my opinion, is something worth investigating further as to John Lennon.

    Based on biographies that I've read, I believe that Lennon finally felt self-assured when he met and fell in love with Yoko.

    John Lennon loved Yoko's imagination, e.g. the famous story about how they met where Yoko had John climb a ladder only to see the word "yes" printed on top, in tiny print.

    Such art is Ne exemplified. This leads me to believe that Lennon was Ne-seeking; Lennon certainly did not receive much Fe from Yoko -- if you ever watch interviews of them, you'll generally see Yoko looking very rigid and quiet, while Lennon makes witty jokes and generally oozes Fe.

    Lennon said himself that Yoko was much more business-minded than he -- she acquired their mutual "fortune" in the 70s by purchasing real estate and even cows.

    If you ever read Yoko's poetry -- actually, much of it is well-thought-out -- it displays a lot of Ne. In the late 60s, she would send Lennon notes that said things like "remember to breathe," and reportedly, he loved those. (They were short "poems" that got to the point quickly.) To Lennon, Yoko seems to have represented the true 'artist,' which he aspired to be.

    All of this considered, I think that Fe base, Ne-seeking makes the best sense for John Lennon, (at the moment -until new information becomes available,) which would make him an ESE - Hugo.

    Victor Hugo, by the way, took on much the same "secular saint" role in the 1800s as John Lennon did in the 1900s, with books like "Les Miserables" and "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" -- the former being an ode, in many ways, to "working class heroes" and both books espousing the philosophy that "All You Need is Love." Both Lennon and Hugo were FE dominant forces for peaceful social change.

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    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    I want to say ILE actually. I always had him in my mind as an introvert But he does so remind me of several ILE's. Introverted possibles LII. I can clearly see Ne ego... but with what I'm not yet sure. His lyrics though... rock my world....


    Here come on' flat top, he come groovin' up slowly
    He got joo-joo eyeball, he one holy roller
    He got hair down to his knees
    Got to be a joker he just do what he please

    He wear no shoeshine, he got toe jam football
    He got monkey finger, he shoot Coca Cola
    He say, "I know you, you know me
    One thing I can tell you is you got to be free"

    Come together, right now, over you
    He bad production, he got Ono sideboard
    He one spinal cracker, he got feet down below his knees
    Hold you in his armchair, you can feel his disease

    Come together, right now, over me
    He roller coaster, he got early warning
    He got muddy water, he one mojo filter
    He say, "One and one, and one is three"
    Got to be good lookin' 'cause he's so hard to see

    Come together, right now
    Over me, over you, over there

    Come together
    Last edited by SyrupDeGem; 04-26-2014 at 10:58 PM.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

  34. #34
    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 717495 View Post
    I don't see any NF or Fe ego. He's so dry and calculative in his interviews, he comes off like an overly serious ENTp there who gets wrapped up in essential logical principles to frame his thoughts and he's so static EP energy. If he's using Fe its in the spur of the moment, not something that comes constantly natural to him like with INFps. Most of the time he will support Fe here and there but not be involved or attached to it as a complete process. Although he has some stereotypical "humanitarian" interests or points of view, this is like a number of people of all types who I know. Also, where in the Augusta rulebook can ENTps not be passionate (at least in the language used and frame of mind)? If he's INFp or ENFj, then point to one who is like him--I would like to know one who lacks in the Fe department so comparatively, and one who is so bright into potential energy and infantile games, versus the INFp tranquil, emotionally accessible, deep gazing sort (don't overlook how real INFps come across compared to him, and don't mistake infantile games for fine-tuned Fe.) This guy is sometimes a carbon copy of my Ti-ENTp brother, doesn't remind me at all of my INFp sister. He's very "excited" and gets talkative like an ENXp, versus "emotive" and "influential" like an Fe ego. Most is based on my own experience so thought I'd share. It's pretty obvious just watching the guy, nonetheless listening to him for a while.

    Also his wife Yoko Ono seems ISFp. Compare the two: one Fe ego, and one Ti ego. There's an obvious difference and a vivid synergy between Fe egos and Ti egos.

    Yes, yes definitely Ti ILE! That's it, thats the difficulty I was having with typing other ILE's who are not so Ne bouncy smiley. The more serious types of ILE are the Ti subtypes... if you buy into subtypes (or just the more serious versions).

    Super, so please to have read your post, there was something I was waiting for and you just provided it.

    I think this guy is the same type....(Alex Turner) in the centre. I think the guy on the left is poss SLE.




    Both Lenon and Alex Turner remind me of my father who is also ILE (maybe a little more whacky though).


    I love these guys soo much!

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

  35. #35

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    bump

  36. #36
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    ILE-Ti sp/so

  37. #37
    ■■■■■■ Radio's Avatar
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    ILE E6

  38. #38
    Haikus
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    not sure if I posted here already, but ..... ILE-Ti sp/so e6

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    IEE ? Sx/so 5. Lol at sx last.. Maybe you havent read about him. I read a semi-fictional biography type book about him. Im pretty sure it was written by an IEI. The main character is a girl who gets Johns attention, and John falls head over heels for her and wants her to come with him on tour. He calls her and threatens to jump our the window of his hotel if she doesnt come, he ends uo jumping in towards his room but breaking his ankle. He acts typical sx in the book just like he was in real life. In the end he treats her like shit though. Apparently John was a wife beater and abuser.

  40. #40
    darya's Avatar
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    Something boring and overrated.

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