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Thread: EII-IEI Quasi-identical relations (INFj and INFp)

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    Default EII-IEI Quasi-identical relations (INFj and INFp)

    Help!

    I feel like we speak a different language.

    At work i keep asking a colleague what support she needs from me and she says none. Then 2 weeks later she is clearly pissed off with me and accuses me of not supporting her.

    How can i get her to tell me what she needs?

    She hints at things, i try and work it out but can't then make lots of guesses i.e. would you like me to do this or that and I ask for clarification if i am right and she clams up and says it doesnt matter and looks really really annoyed.

    Im at a total loss.

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    I guess you can tell her exactly you feel about in a straightforward manner. E.g. "You have feedbacked to me that I have not been supporting you, even though I have enquired about it in separate occasions. You need to be upfront with me and tell me exactly what are the difficulties you are facing so far so that we can work this out together."

    Sometimes INFjs need to be shaken up a little.

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    It's possible that she may be interpreting your advances as Se boundary-setting, and deflecting them.

    The information provided in the OP is sparse, so I apologize if I take too many liberties here. Rather than reaching out to her, perhaps you could let her come to you. Give her the freedom to approach you at all times. Simply say, "I'm here whenever you need me." It's important for Ne-ego types (actually, Deltas) to have this freedom and accessibility to move around. If you are not giving her this, then it's possible she is referring to this as lack of support.

    Trying to prod and pick apart her problems will generally not be appreciated. Incidentally, INFps respond positively to this, INFjs don't.

    For instance, in my case, if I say "it's nothing", I really mean "I don't want to talk about it at this moment". It's not a veiled invitation to be prodded and persuaded to talk (many Se-ego types assume this by default), I really mean I'm not comfortable/secure enough to talk about it at that given moment.

    You said she hints at her problems, which is interesting to me because you assume she wants to be figured out. I can't speak for her, but many times I drop hints, but I simply want people to acknowledge there's something wrong and tell me "I'm with you, you don't need to worry." I really do not want to be figured out, otherwise I would be open about it.

    Just throwing perspectives out there. Take this as a grain of salt. eunice's post is a good one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    I guess you can tell her exactly you feel about in a straightforward manner.
    Agree.

    Hey, shit hits the fan, it hits the fan. No need to agonise it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IEI View Post
    Help!

    I feel like we speak a different language.

    At work i keep asking a colleague what support she needs from me and she says none. Then 2 weeks later she is clearly pissed off with me and accuses me of not supporting her.

    How can i get her to tell me what she needs?

    She hints at things, i try and work it out but can't then make lots of guesses i.e. would you like me to do this or that and I ask for clarification if i am right and she clams up and says it doesnt matter and looks really really annoyed.

    Im at a total loss.
    Yeah, some INFjs (Ne subs especially) tend not to be as straightforward when needing help. Not because they don't need it, but because they feel uncomfortable intruding upon you and your time. It helps to just talk about how you would handle the problem and say that you could help them in such and such a way if they were to encounter such and such. In my experience, they would enthusiastically agree when you hit on the right issues, in which you would know they need help in the particular area. Then just provide them with the resources they need or get them in touch with the people they need in order to get the job done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post
    Yeah, some INFjs (Ne subs especially) tend not to be as straightforward when needing help. Not because they don't need it, but because they feel uncomfortable intruding upon you and your time.
    So you need to say, "I am going to help you whether you like it or not! Now give me something to do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Yes I do try to make sense of the situation by asking questions and making clarifying statements. I have noticed the more I do this the more annoyed she seems to get. I then get frustrated as I have no idea what she is saying or what she wants me to do.

    Thank you for decoding the "it's nothing" for me. She says this all the time.

    So I am to listen if something doesn't make sense that’s ok, just listen the process of listening is enough even if I don't really understand what she means. Let her know I’m there if she needs me & give her space.

    I think the coaching style will be helpful if she shares more with me, if not I will try being direct to see if I get anywhere.

    Thanks for the advice

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    I am not FiNe, so take what I say with that in mind.

    My belief is that communication is important, as is being responsible for our communications or lack of. Also, as my NiFe friend described it...we essentially train people in how we want to be treated.

    Basically, don't take on the responsibility of having to read her mind. Hold HER responsible for communicating to you what she needs. Let her know that you are there to help her, but that you don't read minds, so you need her to tell you what she needs from you. If she doesn't tell you, she can't hold you responsible for that. And then step back. It may be hard for you to step back, but think of it as you training her to actually come to you to let you know what she needs/wants. And THEN you're able to support her.

    If you see her doing something that you think she might want/need hep with. Ask her once, "woud you like me to help you with that?" if she says no, then she's accepting the responsibility of it onto herself. If she says yes, then ask her what part she needs help with. If she seems frustrated by the task, let her know what you think you can do about it, and then ask her if that's what she'd like you to do. (in essense, it's giving her ideas that she may not have considered, but ultimately, the responsibility still lies on her to say yes or no) (it's also not overwhelming nor distractive, as you're being brief and specific about what you can do/help with.)

    And she may initially be upset with you as she is now, but in time, she'll learn that you are a valuable and available resource she can turn to when she needs it.
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    I know speaking for myself that it sometimes depends on how you phrase or state something like "what do you need?".

    someone might say it in a way that makes me think they think I need something from them and correspondingly the thought in my mind is "I dont need anything from you"

    Alternatively, especially in work settings (also dependent on how the question is put but also on what vibes i am getting from people), I might think a question like that is really a trick question aiming to point out I cant handle my job well or that people think i'm overwhelmed, when i'm not. That would make me feel extremely self-conscious, insecure about the quality of my work, about whether i'm appreciated at work, and feeling like i have no support. So this could indeed be the case with the EII you are in charge of.

    I definitely agree with the suggestion of simply making yourself very accessible to requests from her as they pop up. And at the same time, be as hands-off as you can be. In addition, I would recommend sitting down with her and just letting her know how much you appreciate her work, and praising all the good things she's done. First of all that might clarify your repeated inquiries on what help she needs as just you checking in with her as opposed to attempts at micromanaging. And secondly, again speaking for myself, I tend to work harder for people who think i'm already doing a great job, because i would never want to disappoint them.

    Delta NFs tend to be really hard on themselves for the littlest things that really might not be their fault. I was in charge of a college student this past summer who i think was EII and one of our experiments didn't work out. She took it SO hard, when it really wasn't even anything that she did wrong--we found out later that something was wrong with the kit we were using. So before we discovered the problem, she was acting so passive aggressive and mad, i was like why is she mad???? I'd helped her with the experiment, so she even seemed to sort of passive-aggressively be blaming me even. She left that day, and slammed the door . So thinking all this through, I sent her an email that basically explained to her that sometimes science doesn't work out the way we expected, and i find it difficult to blame her or even myself for it not working out because i know for a fact that both of us did everything right. Sometimes it just takes some troubleshooting to find the problem, it's not that big a deal, experiments sometimes do fail and we just rerun them. No need for being angry with oneself, in fact that will only lead to burnout since this sort of thing happens all the time.

    So the next day, she comes in having read my email, and she's much more at ease. She does admit that she tends to be a perfectionist and a control freak sometimes and I praise her for those qualities but i reiterate that she should be a little easier on herself. we sort of laugh about it and we're back to being best of friends.

    Anyway i dont know if this scenario helps any for your situation, but it might be a similar sort of thing going on.
    Last edited by Suz; 09-16-2011 at 09:33 PM.
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    i just thought, a good phrase is "may i help you?" you areasking for permission to help AND implying she,d be doing you a favor by letting you do something that helps.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    i just thought, a good phrase is "may i help you?" you areasking for permission to help AND implying she,d be doing you a favor by letting you do something that helps.
    or better phrased something like "i'm not busy right now, is there anything i can do to make your life easier?"

    "May i help you?" is good but one needs to be careful about not saying it in that way that salespeople do. lol. It has the potential for being misunderstood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IEI View Post
    Help!

    I feel like we speak a different language.

    At work i keep asking a colleague what support she needs from me and she says none. Then 2 weeks later she is clearly pissed off with me and accuses me of not supporting her.

    How can i get her to tell me what she needs?

    She hints at things, i try and work it out but can't then make lots of guesses i.e. would you like me to do this or that and I ask for clarification if i am right and she clams up and says it doesnt matter and looks really really annoyed.

    Im at a total loss.
    I wouldn't know how to answer this in a useful way, though I'd like to. There's no specifics or information concerning the situation. I don't like assuming what's going on and/or the history between you and the person you typed INFj. It could well be something that has nothing to do with Socionics too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post
    Yeah, some INFjs (Ne subs especially) tend not to be as straightforward when needing help. Not because they don't need it, but because they feel uncomfortable intruding upon you and your time. It helps to just talk about how you would handle the problem and say that you could help them in such and such a way if they were to encounter such and such. In my experience, they would enthusiastically agree when you hit on the right issues, in which you would know they need help in the particular area. Then just provide them with the resources they need or get them in touch with the people they need in order to get the job done.
    In my case it's more about being self-sufficient, but occasionally it is about not bothering someone, especially if they are very busy with their own things. I rely more on Enneagram when it comes to differences between people of the same Sociotype. My attitude toward seeking help is definitely influenced by my need to feel self-sufficient and capable of doing things. I have a friend who I think is Ne-EII, but E9, and does ask for help openly (at least emotional).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    In my case it's more about being self-sufficient, but occasionally it is about not bothering someone, especially if they are very busy with their own things. I rely more on Enneagram when it comes to differences between people of the same Sociotype. My attitude toward seeking help is definitely influenced by my need to feel self-sufficient and capable of doing things. I have a friend who I think is Ne-EII, but E9, and does ask for help openly (at least emotional).
    Yes, I had largely been thinking about the behaviour of an E9 EII-Ne pal when I wrote that. OTOH I know an EII-Fi who has this same attitude you have. It got her pretty far in life.

    ETA: I think though that a factor to being open in asking for help is related to the closeness of the relationship between helper and helpee, as well as the degree of trust between the two.
    Last edited by InkStrider; 09-17-2011 at 02:35 PM.

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    Default EII-IEI Quasi-identical relations (INFp & INFj)

    I really just want to hear about what kind of experiences any IEIs or EIIs have had with this coupling... particularly with intimacy. I am curious, and I guess looking for some perspective.

    Thanks
    --JUST REALIZED THERE'S ALREADY A THREAD ON THIS BASICALLY - SO NEVER MIND.--
    Last edited by pluie; 03-25-2012 at 05:52 AM.
    "If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann

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    Hmm we share a lot of the same values and emotions and insights on things, we both whine that the world should be more compassionate or whatever.

    But what we differ the most on is erotic attitudes and styles, they just don't seem to know how to sex me up like I want it. =/ There also seems to be this secret hatred when the other is upset and can't really do anything to help the other? idk.

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    haha... yes... the other night he wanted me to hold him in this sort of motherly way... i wasn't feelin' it. and the seriousness can be quite discouraging.

    thanks for replying.

    But what we differ the most on is erotic attitudes and styles, they just don't seem to know how to sex me up like I want it. =/ There also seems to be this secret hatred when the other is upset and can't really do anything to help the other? idk.
    i relate to this, possibly strongly. sounds similar to my experience.
    Last edited by pluie; 03-28-2012 at 05:03 AM. Reason: thought of more
    "If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann

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    My quasis are usually overbearing pests. And betas should leave my duals alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    "overbearing pests"? shit. some harsh words there... but i asked IEIs and EIIs anyway.
    "If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann

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    Quote Originally Posted by pluie View Post
    "overbearing pests"? shit. some harsh words there... but i asked IEIs and EIIs anyway.
    Just want the specific?
    I had an EII friend who got in a relationship with an IEI. I typed her and knew it wouldn't work out. It didn't. I think most consider quasis to be the third-worst match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Just want the specific?
    I had an EII friend who got in a relationship with an IEI. I typed her and knew it wouldn't work out. It didn't. I think most consider quasis to be the third-worst match.
    What's the second-worst match?

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    Probably super ego

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    yes, i do want the specifics. thank you. yeah, i don't expect 'it' (a long-term romantic partnership) to work out. but i am wondering what would work out. but i think i have enough of an idea.
    "If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    What's the second-worst match?
    Contrary/extinguishment

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Contrary/extinguishment
    No; that's fourth-worst. Super-ego is generally considered second-worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    I don't think so (ime). Even the description sounds really bad and it tends to be accurate for me.

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    yeah. horrible.

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    ...
    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-18-2012 at 02:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
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    i have kissed them girls

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewBorn STAR View Post
    i have kissed them girls
    We were drunk; doesn't count
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    anything can work out if you have overcome your type, but if you're stuck in the fixations of your type then it's a sure failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratremix View Post
    anything can work out if you have overcome your type, but if you're stuck in the fixations of your type then it's a sure failure.
    If you are acting like a bad stud type of your type you will fail at anything in life. When you are limitless and overcome yourself you can succeed in anything, but that too gets boring

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewBorn STAR View Post
    If you are acting like a bad stud type of your type you will fail at anything in life. When you are limitless and overcome yourself you can succeed in anything, but that too gets boring
    not so sure what you mean about "succeed[ing] in anything," but i think i basically agree with you

    at least, this is my ending conclusion with regards to the quasi-love i've had, and every relationship for that matter... or at least i am trying to.
    "If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann

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    Quote Originally Posted by pluie View Post
    I really just want to hear about what kind of experiences any IEIs or EIIs have had with this coupling... particularly with intimacy. I am curious, and I guess looking for some perspective.

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    I haven't had any quasi relationships, but friendships in my experience can work out well. The most frustrating thing is that you can never persuade each other of anything. I guess this is because your quasi partner thinks so differently from you, that you can neither take their arguments apart nor build on them.

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    I haven't known too many quasi's. It's kind of hard to talk to them, especially trying to convince them of anything... and they usually reply to what I say in a way I didn't expect and that I find confusing. As a kid, I had one possible EII playmate that I saw occasionally. We used to make fairyhouses together & I remember getting very frustrated at her because she wanted us both to make one fairyhouse, instead of making seperate fairy houses so we could judge the best one at the end.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    The most frustrating thing is that you can never persuade each other of anything.
    Gah! That's the problem I have with my SLE brother!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    I took ~2,5g mushrooms with an IEI friend yesterday, and it was one of the most intense trips I've ever had. I almost felt like we were the same person, as if out thoughts were somehow magically connected.. We literally ended each other's sentences, spoke similar things at the same moment, acted the same way etc.. .
    E.g. in the beginning of the evening we were at a forest rave but neither of us really felt like dancing so we just sat on a rock watching others without speaking for over an hour. I got some weird social paranoia anxiety attack, totally forgot why I had ever liked shooms and decided I should never trip again. Being trapped in a negative thought loop my trip started turning real bad, so I turned to her and asked her to come walk with me. She did the same thing to me at the exact same moment, using exactly the same words. So, we stood up everyone else. While wandering around the forest she started talking about how she, too, had gotten anxious and socially paranoid and thought she shouldn't ever trip again. It was damn weird and I thought to myself that she was really the only person I could be with at that time as she already knew how weird and crazy I was and that she wouldn't judge me for that or take my fuck-ups the wrong way. It took about three seconds for her to say the same thing about me aloud. The trip lasted for god knows how many hours, and was like that pretty much all of the time. We even called ourselves "a shroomy unit".

    It's clear that our information metabolism styles and preferences are very dirrerent (delta vs. beta) and there have been some serious communication breakdowns in the past, but I think being an introverted intuitive feeler and disconnected from the "real" world in a similar way as I am allows her to understand me in a way that would never be possible for an E/S/T type.. Being with her is a lot easier than being with other IEIs, tho, and I think it's due to us having lots of non-socionics related similarities; we both have weird fucked up extinguishment/superego parents, we're both E4 sx doms, we come from upper-middle class families, went to the same school, share a similar taste for music etc..
    Last edited by willekeurig; 06-17-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    It's not a pair that is commonly found, to be honest; but, there's always a chance of being mistyped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Probably super ego
    I think it depends more on whether or not they are both introverts or extroverts. Two introverts can probably adjust to each other better than two extroverts. Probably is the same with quasi-identicals.

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    I'd only been intimate with 2 people before my quasi, so I felt completely out of whatever loop he was in. I'm an insecure mess and he was either inherently comfortable or a great actor; that amplified my fucking crazy ten-fold. Either way, he was by far my favorite psedo-relationship thus far. He'll be my last for a few years, I've decided. I'd never been transparent before so I freaked out, froze up, and ran. He was the only guy who'd ever seriously blown my mind. Two crazies make a right, that's for damn sure.

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