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    Default Schools of thought in socionics

    What are the schools of thought in socionics?

    Are there schools?

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    Nah, there are only socionically literate people and illiterate.
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    One school: School of Socionics
    * Recognizes Model's A, B, and J (missing any?) as describing the same phenomenon, to different degrees of detail.
    * Recognizes the predictive properties of the system of inter-type relations.
    * Recognizes the accuracy (for the most part) of the multitude of type descriptions strewn throughout the interbutts.
    * Recognizes the existence of subtypes but not necessarily the practicalness(sp?) of their employment. The same can be said of most aspects of VI.
    * Does not currently have an accurate, objective, consensus-building typing methodology for famouses or other beings.

    Most claims of division of schools of socionics seem to be attempts at mudslinging that are a direct result of disagreements arising from differences in typing methodologies, which we already know are all in the Alpha-testing (no Pun) phase, and can not be completely relied on no matter who they come from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Nah, there are only socionically literate people and illiterate.
    i wonder which are which

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    How about first listing criteria for which different thoughts can be compared. Crispy sorta went that way, but perhaps something that people can answer, and then those answers compared.

    For example
    How do you define the IM elements?(link, behavioral, cognitive)
    Do you include temperaments?
    Do you include a model 'order'? If so, which one? (link if available)
    Do you include DCNH?
    When you type others, what do you look for? How do you verify the accuracy of your attempt?
    Do you include VI?
    Etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I tend to agree, but I'm also curious to see what could result from an endeavor like this.

    People might learn that many of the supposed differences are misinterpreted and overstated.
    Yeah, as of now people see what they believe is an incorrect typing of a famous and assume the author's understanding of the type is distorted, when it is much more likely that the author and accuser have differing views of the famous in question. One or both of them haven't attained a complete view of the individual, but they BOTH have easy access to understanding of the type through descriptions.

    Actually come to think of it separating into differing "schools" might be a natural progression. It would take the theory of Socionics from a static ENTp conception phase to a dynamic INTp critical phase as described here: Source
    1. Turnover Scientist

    1.1. Line-assertive temperament - PT. The development of any science or theory begins with experimentation, discovery of paradoxes and get some empirical regularities. There is a bold intrusion of scientific thought in uncharted areas, as well as redefining the already existing knowledge base. The most likely "foci" promising areas of growth - the joints of traditional science. The theory is not separated from practice. Scientism open stage "enterprise."

    1.2. Gibco-razvorotlivy temperament - IL. Obtained in the first stage of knowledge, and private laws that make possible to formulate the central problem of the emerging trends are synthesized into a single logically linked to the structure, pattern or formula. Thanks to the inventive insight that brings the idea of ​​a vicious circle, the problem is solved theoretically and the result is the final formation of a new discipline or school of thought. The second phase of the development of science - "inventive".

    1.3. Receptive-adaptive temperament - TP. Unified Theory - a product of the second phase - is ill-defined structure, contains many ambiguities and contradictions, poorly aligned with current requirements of the practice, it is static. It needs to be corrected and dynamised. At this stage, a single line splits into separate schools and criticizing each other and engaged in "editing" of the inventive circuit. The third stage of scientism is necessarily "critical".

    1.4. Stably-balanced temperament - LI. One of the opposing schools is the most powerful: a better explanation of your ideas convincingly links them together, compact sets and is linked to practice. She wins in the end, leaving a clearly-proven, refined structure, which is then practically does not change. The fourth and final stage of development of science - "analytical."
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    Some may consider them trivial, but I agree, they are fairly fundamental.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    How about first listing criteria for which different thoughts can be compared. Crispy sorta went that way, but perhaps something that people can answer, and then those answers compared.

    For example
    How do you define the IM elements?(link, behavioral, cognitive)
    Do you include temperaments?
    Do you include a model 'order'? If so, which one? (link if available)
    Do you include DCNH?
    When you type others, what do you look for? How do you verify the accuracy of your attempt?
    Do you include VI?
    Etc
    Yep, I was thinking something along these lines too.

    Also answering fundamentals like:

    What is 'information'?
    What is an IE?
    What is a type?

    Etc.

    Which may strike some as abstrusely trivial questions, but they're really not. There are major systemic implications depending on how one conceives notions like these.
    Agree to all of this. I've always thought that at their core, the biggest clashes between people about socionics deal with these very issues, but nobody ever seems to realize this. So instead you get people arguing through their own semantics about the issues and they assume that the other person knows what the other is talking about. This is what I was trying to get at with my old "What is Socionics" thread, but only a few people seemed to understand what I was asking or take it seriously.

    I don't see those sorts of questions as trivial at all. In fact trying to define 'information' is a really difficult task, lol.
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    The problem with systematized schools is that belonging to one of them is limiting. *sigh* Nice find about temperament progression though, Crispy.

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    The communist school: there is just one personality type. Get over it
    The capitalist school: there are 7000 000 000 different personality types. Get over it
    The anarchist school: we don't need personality types. Get over it
    The banana republic school: give me some cash and I'll help you choose with your personality type. Get over it
    The Gilly school: personality types must be discussed every day. Get over it
    The Joy school: personality type changes every year. Get over it
    The Idiot school: I'm the dual of the girl I'm dating. Get over it
    The Darth Vader school: You don't know the power of the opposite quadra
    The Master Yoda school: Don't flip you Reinin Dichotomies, stay in the light side
    The Obi Wan Kenobi school: Use , Luke Skywalker
    The Chuck Norris school: Roundhouse kick first, type later
    Last edited by 1981slater; 09-16-2011 at 09:12 AM.
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    Are there schools?
    i don't think so. there is hardly any consistency to the methods each individual applies, let alone a convergence of such on a shared plane.

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    I'm inclined to think there are broad "schools", based on what an individual uses to type, andhow they take the theory (such as what a "type" or a "quadra" is).
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    What are the schools of thought in socionics?

    Are there schools?
    When I refer to schools of thought in Socionics, I don't mean that the way people talk about things is necessarily different. Certainly there are some differences of emphasis where some people emphasize a cognitive/structural approach while others emphasize subject matter interest, and there are some non-standard views (at least among the group of people here) such as Model X that postulates that people don't really have super ego and id functions.

    But what I mean by different schools is that there are different clustering of typings that reflect different understandings of the same "words" that people use. If you were to take a typing list of famous people, even one where the raters are big names in Russia, you'll find that they often disagree...commonly putting famous people in opposite quadras (quasi identical and extinguishment are common).

    If you were to run multidimensional scaling on the raters based on how they rated a common set of people, I believe you would find that they would cluster into different groups, and you could run a cluster analysis algorithm to identify clusters, and those clusters would be the schools of thought.

    Anyhow, that's my hypothesis based on what I've seen of the typings. It could probably be done in SPSS or some other statistical package if someone has the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    What are the schools of thought in socionics?

    Are there schools?
    no only people who don't understand model A and start a new school, so they can claim they understand the new socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    What are the schools of thought in socionics?

    Are there schools?
    no only people who don't understand model A and start a new school, so they can claim they understand the new socionics.
    it seems to be those who most proudly espouse model A that create "schools of thought" to begin with, a pretext to control ideas. when most of the time, it's just a few people who've integrated something new into their views (i.e. "model X" was not primarily a theoretical shift). and if expressing them is met with stuffy disdain, "this is not standard," the person becomes more selective about who they talk to; so, the classical socionists can sit in their dining room and semantically fence, and anyone not wearing the model A button is distanced; yet you wonder why smaller groups form... therein is the basis for a "cult," no?

    for as many people that lack proper understanding of model A, there are just as many who fail to (attempt to) grasp its inherent drawbacks and limitations. of this latter group ~two-thirds are parasites who feed on the excitement that segregating ideas into social castes brings, with the rest mostly neutral/innocuous. the proof of this is found in the attitudes taken towards model X etc., where the same ones decrying their spectral pariah were carrying on reasonable discussion once the ban was lifted; and they know who, or at least what, they are, in a social landscape defined by consistency between intent and behavior. after people readjust, the same village stoning sentiment arises again.
    Last edited by strrrng; 09-18-2011 at 02:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    What are the schools of thought in socionics?

    Are there schools?
    no only people who don't understand model A and start a new school, so they can claim they understand the new socionics.
    This thought is probably comforting to those who have no capacity to think for themselves or orient within a creative environment of new ideas spawned from true understanding. I'd say your statement is backwards, it's actually the reverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Are there schools?
    I guess the only two traditional schools I can recognize are VI-ers vs non VI-ers. I could recognize views of different non-traditional authors or users I remember, who developed different branches, some being fully or partially justified to be called Socionics school [1], others are gibberish [2].
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    [1] - ie Reinin, labcoat, Stern
    [2] - like Gulenko, smilingeyes, tcaud, Ashton and countless Russian "new age" writers, so to speak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    which we already know are all in the Alpha-testing (no Pun) phase
    You Ni-types can't help it sometimes... It was enough not to capitalize "alpha"; as a rule, capitalized terms are used with their Socionics/Model A meaning, the others are not, unless justified otherwise (proper names or other fields that use specific meanings).
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    The communist school: there is just one personality type. Get over it
    The capitalist school: there are 7000 000 000 different personality types. Get over it
    The anarchist school: we don't need personality types. Get over it
    The banana republic school: give me some cash and I'll help you choose with your personality type. Get over it
    The Gilly school: personality types must be discussed every day. Get over it
    The Joy school: personality type changes every year. Get over it
    The Idiot school: I'm the dual of the girl I'm dating. Get over it
    The Darth Vader school: You don't know the power of the opposite quadra
    The Master Yoda school: Don't flip you Reinin Dichotomies, stay in the light side
    The Obi Wan Kenobi school: Use , Luke Skywalker
    The Chuck Norris school: Roundhouse kick first, type later
    ROFL

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    [1] - ie Reinin, labcoat, Stern
    Stern? Are you kidding?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Stern? Are you kidding?
    I was not intending to present a reliable guide, I may be wrong about him, but what I read looked decent, although developed further by him. Also, I know a guy who read his book, I noticed nothing immediately off in what he told me. If there's some unacceptable SF underneath, or he'll come with such things later - applicable to all enumerated authors - then my statement is not applicable to his work, yeah.
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    Was thinking about this just the other day. I don't think most of the socionists really understand each other. For example, Boukalov's math. Gulenko doesn't use Model B because he can't possibly understand it... his Ni EM is too weak. And he doesn't feel confident that he can bullshit it... that would leave him vulnerable. I sent Boukalov a brief runthrough of political type theory, to see if he was familiar with anything like it. He never responded. EM theory tells us why: supervisor-supervisee pattern partners at that level can never be mutually comprehending. A mathematician will never understand human nature unless they manage to reduce it to a neurocognitive process (which Boukalov apparently does). I'm sure the political types were a shot out of the dark for him, and he's probably still wondering what I was getting at. Igor never wrote back either. To be sure, I don't totally follow his math, but I've had enough experience with Einstein that I know you don't have to follow the equation, to follow the idea.

    Filatova, as an EII, probably has more insight into the actual subject of the theory than the whole bunch. But she's not a system builder and has to rely on the others to systematize what she observes.

    Check that thing about the math -- I cannot very well make sense of his terms like "psychofractal in the sociocogntive space", nor most anything else he has written about in that journal of his (though I suspect much of it is hogwash).

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    [1] - ie Reinin, labcoat, Stern
    Stern? Are you kidding?
    lol yeah that's pretty fucing hilarious, that guy got banned from here ages ago and decided to write a book that sucks enormous balls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post

    no only people who don't understand model A and start a new school, so they can claim they understand the new socionics.
    This thought is probably comforting to those who have no capacity to think for themselves or orient within a creative environment of new ideas spawned from true understanding. I'd say your statement is backwards, it's actually the reverse.
    I don't mind if there are new schools, but from my observation these school are nearly always a step backward instead of forward.

    can you name a school of thought that is an improvement over model A. So far I haven't seen one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post

    This thought is probably comforting to those who have no capacity to think for themselves or orient within a creative environment of new ideas spawned from true understanding. I'd say your statement is backwards, it's actually the reverse.
    I don't mind if there are new schools, but from my observation these school are nearly always a step backward instead of forward.

    can you name a school of thought that is an improvement over model A. So far I haven't seen one.
    Smilexian socionics is quite good and comprehensive, IMHO.
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    Ashton, thanks for creating that guideline of questions.
    I am going to print it and maybe use it as a guideline in helping myself better describe which parts I've found useful, and maybe how they fit together. (if I ever get to that point, that is, heh.)
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    Hah, I'm probably the last person to ask. I do have to ask though, after looking over the brainstorm we did earlier, where would DCNH fit? It's not something I've studied yet, but it seemed to have potential to me. I'm just not sure where it would go.


    Oh, and you may not have been the only one who "created it", but you did organize it in a useful way. Thanks for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Hah, I'm probably the last person to ask. I do have to ask though, after looking over the brainstorm we did earlier, where would DCNH fit? It's not something I've studied yet, but it seemed to have potential to me. I'm just not sure where it would go.


    Oh, and you may not have been the only one who "created it", but you did organize it in a useful way. Thanks for that.
    DCNH is a subtype system.

    Actually the organize-random-shit-ashton-and-galen-generated part was me, thanks for your appreciation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post

    DCNH is a subtype system.

    Actually the organize-random-shit-ashton-and-galen-generated part was me, thanks for your appreciation.
    My apologies...thank YOU, Aiss, for organizing it.
    Seriously, cuz while I love the idea of this thread, the randomness of the stuff would have been frustrating for me to respond to....too much repeating myself, heh.

    And I would have hated to see the thread idea come to naught due to the randomness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Do you see anything missing from it or that could be changed?
    It's a good start. But I still think the proof of the pudding is in the typing. If two people say the same things about theoretical questions, they still probably don't understand things the same way if they type a common set of benchmark people differently.

    As to new theoretical variants, any list is incomplete because as soon as someone invents a new variant, it's something that's already not on the list.

    Nevertheless, asking people to explain their reasons for typings does reveal some differences of thought.

    Here are some of the differences in approach I've noted (I realize some are already on your list):
    Belief that super id can be "strong" vs. belief that the ego block is generally the most prominent
    Different views about VI: How relevant it is, and whether features other than facial expression are relevant to type
    Belief that the classic dichotomies (I/E, N/S, F/T, j/p) are relevant vs. belief that they're not
    Degree of emphasis on Reinin dichotomy descriptions
    Whether one's first impression is of a quadra, or if one focuses on the ego block before deducing quadra

    However, most of the differences are probably due to differing views of the behaviors associated with the IM elements.

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    One other thought...Probably the biggest differences on the forum come from whether someone bases IM definitions primarily on Jung or Augusta (or some combination). This is a major split.

    A Jung-based approach may tend to associate "societal values" with Fe and expression of one's own personal emotions with Fi, whereas Russian/Augusta Socionics has that pretty much exactly reversed.

    That's a major difference. It's why one often sees people debating whether someone is EIE or ESI....Two exceedingly different types, but what happens is that the people agree on the Ni/Se axis and flip Fi/Fe because their definitions are reversed.

    (I'm not saying that Augusta's definitions always result in a complete reversal of Jung-based typings, but commonly that happens. It's really one of the major reasons why people's typings are so off from each other.)

  33. #33
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    So is anybody actually interested in doing this, or is this motion DOA?
    not that I consider my views a school per se, but I had printed it out and will be going through it after I get my current blog project done.

    Perhaps after people see someone else(s) willing to make the leap, take the risk of being judged by others, then maybe they'd be willing to do it themselves, as well. I mean, face it, it's like a big exposure to reveal on a forum like this.

    Also, I think there's probably many people who don't tend to analyze themselves or what they do enough to fill something like this out.

    So, don't totally give up on it...just give it time. Maybe fill it out yourself, or even just parts of it. Like maybe a thread per question, getting disscussions going towards making a list of various answers for each question.

    For example, you can ask "What is Information, to you?", and that in the post update a summary list of answers that follow.

    I dunno...it was just an idea (what I wrote now). I just can't do a full thing yet, myself, as I have the other project going right now.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  34. #34
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    So is anybody actually interested in doing this, or is this motion DOA?
    Hate to say I told you so, but..

    EyeSeeCold 09-17-2011 05:49 PM
    [Today 05:42 PM] Ashton: i just want to the various 'schools' out there to come forth and actually be up front about defining where they stand

    EyeSeeCold 09-17-2011 05:50 PM
    you put it in such a way as to imply that everyone is intentionally deceiving with their own system of beliefs

    EyeSeeCold 09-17-2011 05:50 PM
    when actually it's just people with subjective interpretations

    EyeSeeCold 09-17-2011 05:54 PM
    not everyone can explicate their thought processes

    EyeSeeCold 09-17-2011 05:54 PM
    project will fail

    EyeSeeCold 09-17-2011 05:55 PM
    go forth with it and waste your time
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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  35. #35
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post

    Alright, so ESC isn't going to do it.

    anndelise says she's going to . Anyone else willing to step up?
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...SeeCold/School


    The LIE pioneer is probably best to start it off though.
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
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    I'll probably get to it at some point. Unless I ditch socionics earlier.

  37. #37
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    I'll see what I can do to contribute. It'll probably take a really fucking long time to complete in its entirety, but it's something I've been meaning to do for a long time anyways.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    So is anybody actually interested in doing this, or is this motion DOA?
    It's been in the back of my mind, but it's a significant investment of time and energy to sit down and sort it all out and type it up.

    Honestly, I was kind of waiting for you to post yours, to have something to compare my own views with.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    So is anybody actually interested in doing this, or is this motion DOA?
    It's been in the back of my mind, but it's a significant investment of time and energy to sit down and sort it all out and type it up.

    Honestly, I was kind of waiting for you to post yours, to have something to compare my own views with.
    It's your choice, but I think it's better to write down one's own thoughts rather than just a response to someone. And especially in your and Ashton's case, since you two are the reason this whole thing started anyway. You can always adjust it for whatever you forgot to bring up, anyway. The list is on wikisocion btw, I've been thinking it might be better to put it on userpages than make a thread/debate out of it, at least initially.

  40. #40
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post

    It's been in the back of my mind, but it's a significant investment of time and energy to sit down and sort it all out and type it up.

    Honestly, I was kind of waiting for you to post yours, to have something to compare my own views with.
    It's your choice, but I think it's better to write down one's own thoughts rather than just a response to someone. And especially in your and Ashton's case, since you two are the reason this whole thing started anyway. You can always adjust it for whatever you forgot to bring up, anyway. The list is on wikisocion btw, I've been thinking it might be better to put it on userpages than make a thread/debate out of it, at least initially.
    The problem is, I already know what I believe, but I don't know what he believes. It's a lot easier to clearly distinguish my own beliefs if I know what I'm distinguishing them from.
    Quaero Veritas.

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