ESI or EII

[redbaron]

I have a "friend" who is either ESI or EII. What might be an easy way of telling for sure?

She's a perfectionist who is very concerned about doing things the "right" way. She's fond of making lists, nay, even spreadsheets, and color-coding things into categories. She's a micro-manager and never seems quite comfortable in her own skin (which I realize isn't type-related). She's had the same hairstyle for 20+ years. Beautiful nails but never paints them. Doesn't show off with her clothes and seems unsure about fashion and style (which tends to make me think not ESI). Loves to garden and has a quite beautiful one. Her car is a mess. Her house is perfect when guests come but behind closed doors, is a big mess. Constantly harps on family members to pick up their stuff. Unhappy marriage to SLE. Doesn't have many friends, keeps herself pretty closed off toward people and comes off as snobbish/cold at first. Has a sort of fake warmth that she uses in public with people she knows. Being at parties totally drains her and she often goes home early. She has good posture and is very careful to maintain a 100% natural diet. Enjoys cooking and baking (I know, not type-related necessarily).

Is this enough info to make a distinction? I have no photos.

[glam]

i would say EII.

[Krig the Viking]

I get a vague ESI vibe from your description. Although I agree that the "seems unsure about fashion and style" does seem to point away from ESI, the whole dichotomy between the house's normal messy state and the perfection seen by guests suggests the Gamma variety of Se, which is focused on making an impact on people's opinions and sentiments.

On the other hand, it's possible she's an EII trying really hard to be a Gamma SF, possibly due to having Gamma parents or some other strong Gamma influence in her life. That would explain why she seems somewhat psychologically unhealthy; that much focus and pressure on the PoLR causes a lot of internal tension and secondary problems.

Questions:
1. Are you sure the husband is SLE? Is it possible he's SEE?
2. In what way exactly is her relationship with her husband unhappy? Do they fight all the time on equal grounds? Or does she feel controlled and dominated by him (or vice versa)?

[redbaron]

I get a vague ESI vibe from your description. Although I agree that the "seems unsure about fashion and style" does seem to point away from ESI, the whole dichotomy between the house's normal messy state and the perfection seen by guests suggests the Gamma variety of Se, which is focused on making an impact on people's opinions and sentiments.

On the other hand, it's possible she's an EII trying really hard to be a Gamma SF, possibly due to having Gamma parents or some other strong Gamma influence in her life. That would explain why she seems somewhat psychologically unhealthy; that much focus and pressure on the PoLR causes a lot of internal tension and secondary problems.

Questions:
1. Are you sure the husband is SLE? Is it possible he's SEE?
2. In what way exactly is her relationship with her husband unhappy? Do they fight all the time on equal grounds? Or does she feel controlled and dominated by him (or vice versa)?

100% positive he's SLE. Ti-subtype too. They've been married for a long time and he's learned to kind of check-out when it comes to her so I don't actually think they fight a lot but there's a ton of underlying tension. I think SHE has been more in charge. But it could be because he's Ep and more likely to bend than Ij or might be because they're supervisory.

And yes, she's psychologically unhealthy. Depressed, etc.

[Beautiful sky]

ESI because of their Se, are very object driven, hence are very aesthetic, especially with regards to fashion and beauty. I would say that this person is not ESI but nothing so far hints to EII either. Coming off cold/distant could be a hint of an EII.

Any other observations?

[redbaron]

ESI because of their Se, are very object driven, hence are very aesthetic, especially with regards to fashion and beauty. I would say that this person is not ESI but nothing so far hints to EII either.

Any other observations?

hmmmm. controlling. fearful. worried about the future and HATES changes. (maybe not type related) Very slow to get used to new things. Not very adventurous when it comes to anything. Plays it safe. Doesn't like physical activities. Couch potato but does care about how she looks. Dresses in an adult, sophisticated way but not very "girly" or feminine. Tends to wear dress pants instead of skirts. Never heels. Little to no makeup. Has a handful of lifelong friends but holds most people at arm's length. My impression has been Fi>Fe, Te>Ti, Se>Si or Ne>Ni and definitely introverted.

Oh, and she took the Myers-Briggs and it came out ISFj.

[Trevor]

Given the choice; ESI. The strongest argument => SLE husband.

[redbaron]

She sounds like a horrible person.

lol she can be "nice" but it's fakey.

[Krig the Viking]

I get a vague ESI vibe from your description. Although I agree that the "seems unsure about fashion and style" does seem to point away from ESI, the whole dichotomy between the house's normal messy state and the perfection seen by guests suggests the Gamma variety of Se, which is focused on making an impact on people's opinions and sentiments.

On the other hand, it's possible she's an EII trying really hard to be a Gamma SF, possibly due to having Gamma parents or some other strong Gamma influence in her life. That would explain why she seems somewhat psychologically unhealthy; that much focus and pressure on the PoLR causes a lot of internal tension and secondary problems.

Questions:
1. Are you sure the husband is SLE? Is it possible he's SEE?
2. In what way exactly is her relationship with her husband unhappy? Do they fight all the time on equal grounds? Or does she feel controlled and dominated by him (or vice versa)?

100% positive he's SLE. Ti-subtype too. They've been married for a long time and he's learned to kind of check-out when it comes to her so I don't actually think they fight a lot but there's a ton of underlying tension. I think SHE has been more in charge. But it could be because he's Ep and more likely to bend than Ij or might be because they're supervisory.

And yes, she's psychologically unhealthy. Depressed, etc.

Hmm. Given the overtones of Supervision you describe, it's seems like ESI is involved somehow, but whether that's her type or just the type she's trying to be, I'm not sure yet.

Would you say that she had problems asserting herself as worthwhile? I.e., she feels like she's "not good enough", and has never learned to confidently promote her own strengths and her own way of doing things among people, so she covers up her insecurity by pretending she's someone else, to others and even (especially) to her self?

[FDG]

Given the choice; ESI. The strongest argument => SLE husband.

Yeah.

[Beautiful sky]

ESI because of their Se, are very object driven, hence are very aesthetic, especially with regards to fashion and beauty. I would say that this person is not ESI but nothing so far hints to EII either.

Any other observations?

hmmmm. controlling. fearful. worried about the future and HATES changes. (maybe not type related) Very slow to get used to new things. Not very adventurous when it comes to anything. Plays it safe. Doesn't like physical activities. Couch potato but does care about how she looks. Dresses in an adult, sophisticated way but not very "girly" or feminine. Tends to wear dress pants instead of skirts. Never heels. Little to no makeup. Has a handful of lifelong friends but holds most people at arm's length. My impression has been Fi>Fe, Te>Ti, Se>Si or Ne>Ni and definitely introverted.

Oh, and she took the Myers-Briggs and it came out ISFj.

Worries about the future; lists categories; micromanager (Se)....hints to LSI; couch potato-eness could be due to depression and lack of momentum. SLE don't like to be micromanaged, in a relationship this doesn't work out very well for the couple.

[FDG]

Haven't seen anyone who likes being micromanaged in a close day-to-day relationship.

[Beautiful sky]

Haven't seen anyone who likes being micromanaged in a close day-to-day relationship.

True, but because SLE are an irrational and object/impulse driven type, the LSI or rational type can be at their neck about things, always wanting results and to see them, this drives the poor, jolly SLE to absolute madness, which they let go easily and return to their jolliness, but frustrates the LSI/ESI because they expect a change and evolution to their managed "policies."

[Korpsy Knievel]

ESI friend says NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[redbaron]

Would you say that she had problems asserting herself as worthwhile? I.e., she feels like she's "not good enough", and has never learned to confidently promote her own strengths and her own way of doing things among people, so she covers up her insecurity by pretending she's someone else, to others and even (especially) to her self?

yes, this is absolutely the case.

[redbaron]

ESI friend says NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

lol well obviously not all ESIs are like this. My best friend growing up was ESI, as was my first love. That guy is still amazing.

[redbaron]

Haven't seen anyone who likes being micromanaged in a close day-to-day relationship.

True, but because SLE are an irrational and object/impulse driven type, the LSI or rational type can be at their neck about things, always wanting results and to see them, this drives the poor, jolly SLE to absolute madness, which they let go easily and return to their jolliness, but frustrates the LSI/ESI because they expect a change and evolution to their managed "policies."

yes she certainly ruins his jolliness. that's for sure true. I have considered ISTj for her but I don't think she really enjoys Fe enough for that. I mean, most ISTjs light up around Fe and I don't know that I would say that about her. She is more... consistently subdued.

[Korpsy Knievel]

lol well obviously not all ESIs are like this.

Naturally.

[Krig the Viking]

Would you say that she had problems asserting herself as worthwhile? I.e., she feels like she's "not good enough", and has never learned to confidently promote her own strengths and her own way of doing things among people, so she covers up her insecurity by pretending she's someone else, to others and even (especially) to her self?

yes, this is absolutely the case.

Then I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that my "EII trying to be an ESI" theory is probably true. I've been studying subtypes and personas for a while now, and according to Kamenev and Prokofiev, the traits I predicted there tend to occur in people who have adopted their Kindred type as their Persona.

Here's what I think:

It's likely she was raised by heavily Se-valuing parents (probably Gammas, but I wouldn't rule out one of them being Beta), who impressed upon her the importance of maintaining an image of strength, power, and beauty, and responded quite negatively whenever she would try to behave naturally in an Ne fashion, causing her to suppress that part of herself and focus on trying to improve her Vulnerable Se and become more like an ESI.

She's a perfectionist because her weak Se was never "good enough" to match up to her parents' standards, so she had to try extra hard to make sure everything was just right. In her mind, the way to please her parents was to never step out of line, never do anything "wrong", never make mistakes which might draw her parents' criticism. As she grew up, this became her habitual style of behaviour, leading to perfectionism and micro-managing to compensate for her insecurity and make sure everything is done "right".

Her Vulnerable Se makes her uncertain in matters related to physical appearance, so like other INxJ types she dresses conservatively in order to avoid making an error that might draw criticism. She's found a hairstyle that seems to work, and is reluctant to risk changing it for the same reason: fear of criticism. Her desire to appear proficient in Se matters is what drives her to almost obsessively clean up the house when company comes, but her Se is too weak to overcome her husband's Irrational disregard for order, not to mention the chaos of family life. This causes her a great deal of anxiety, because it feels like a PoLR hit waiting to happen (a messy house might lead to criticism). She tries to use her Se to force family members into cleaning up, but as a 1-dimensional function it is largely ineffective.

Cooking, baking, and especially gardening would be her refuge from this frustrating situation. I'm guessing the garden is almost exclusively her domain? And it's primarily a flower garden rather than a vegetable garden? The joy of the garden would then be twofold: firstly, it would allow her a setting where she could actually be successful at using her weak Se to create something visually impressive. Secondly, the physical act of gardening involves a lot of Si, which would be soothing to her Super-Id.

She hates change because deep down she knows that she's not strong enough in Se matters to "wing it" and handle things on the fly, and any little unexpected change might cause her to make a mistake which could crack or even completely shatter this ESI image that she's struggled so hard to create, allowing people to see her for what she feels she truly is: weak and undesirable. It would feel like the world was falling apart. So she clamps down, controls as much as she can, and worries about what might happen.




So yeah. Is that close to accurate?



P. S. It's likely she got "ISFJ" on the MBTI quiz because a lot of the MBTI questions focus on external behaviour rather than internal information processing. This would be especially true if the test she took was Kiersey's, which focuses exclusively on external behaviour. Obviously, a lot of her external behaviour resembles ISFJ, because she's been trying her whole life to modify her behaviour to become more like an ESI.

[Beautiful sky]

@Krig, EII don't dress conservatively to avoid drawing criticism; it's because I'm an introvert it makes a statement about my body that I want to keep to myself. This statement isn't to avoid drawing attention from the object, because we want to be in control of the objects we draw and most of those objects come from our inner circle. I'm not repressed or prudish by any nature; I've worn some outrageously wild things in my good days and I'll do it again, in the right circles of comfort...a lot of this has to do with a person's societal expectations as well.

@ Redbarron,

what is the likelihood of this person being SEE? Something tells me that he would try harder to "uplift" her melancholic Fi spirits by "empowering" her if she were SEE type. And, he would try to bail out of the relationship rather than stick around to work it out, in avoiding Fi.

Also, does she seem like she's more of a process type or a result type?
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Process

[silke]

what kind of topics does she like to talk about? what kind of things are likely to catch her attention?

perfectionism sounds more enneagram related - she might be type 1 which I think is common for Fi or Ti subtypes of ESIs and LSIs

[FDG]

Krig, that sounds like a castle in the air.

[Jarno]

.

I would go for EII

[redbaron]

it's almost like Krig has a crystal ball.... for I do believe that is exactly what's going on here.

[blackburry]

She doesnt sound like a horrible person. She just sounds very depressed and as though she has given up on life. Havent we all been through that phase?... It becomes a lifestyle for many. I lean towards ESI from the descriptions given. Ive gotten to points where I see no reason in pretending to be having a good time when I feel like shit, and fuck those people who judge me for it-- just let me be invisible.

[Beautiful sky]

yes, this is absolutely the case.

Then I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that my "EII trying to be an ESI" theory is probably true. I've been studying subtypes and personas for a while now, and according to Kamenev and Prokofiev, the traits I predicted there tend to occur in people who have adopted their Kindred type as their Persona.

Here's what I think:

It's likely she was raised by heavily Se-valuing parents (probably Gammas, but I wouldn't rule out one of them being Beta), who impressed upon her the importance of maintaining an image of strength, power, and beauty, and responded quite negatively whenever she would try to behave naturally in an Ne fashion, causing her to suppress that part of herself and focus on trying to improve her Vulnerable Se and become more like an ESI.

She's a perfectionist because her weak Se was never "good enough" to match up to her parents' standards, so she had to try extra hard to make sure everything was just right. In her mind, the way to please her parents was to never step out of line, never do anything "wrong", never make mistakes which might draw her parents' criticism. As she grew up, this became her habitual style of behaviour, leading to perfectionism and micro-managing to compensate for her insecurity and make sure everything is done "right".

Her Vulnerable Se makes her uncertain in matters related to physical appearance, so like other INxJ types she dresses conservatively in order to avoid making an error that might draw criticism. She's found a hairstyle that seems to work, and is reluctant to risk changing it for the same reason: fear of criticism. Her desire to appear proficient in Se matters is what drives her to almost obsessively clean up the house when company comes, but her Se is too weak to overcome her husband's Irrational disregard for order, not to mention the chaos of family life. This causes her a great deal of anxiety, because it feels like a PoLR hit waiting to happen (a messy house might lead to criticism). She tries to use her Se to force family members into cleaning up, but as a 1-dimensional function it is largely ineffective.

Cooking, baking, and especially gardening would be her refuge from this frustrating situation. I'm guessing the garden is almost exclusively her domain? And it's primarily a flower garden rather than a vegetable garden? The joy of the garden would then be twofold: firstly, it would allow her a setting where she could actually be successful at using her weak Se to create something visually impressive. Secondly, the physical act of gardening involves a lot of Si, which would be soothing to her Super-Id.

She hates change because deep down she knows that she's not strong enough in Se matters to "wing it" and handle things on the fly, and any little unexpected change might cause her to make a mistake which could crack or even completely shatter this ESI image that she's struggled so hard to create, allowing people to see her for what she feels she truly is: weak and undesirable. It would feel like the world was falling apart. So she clamps down, controls as much as she can, and worries about what might happen.




So yeah. Is that close to accurate?



P. S. It's likely she got "ISFJ" on the MBTI quiz because a lot of the MBTI questions focus on external behaviour rather than internal information processing. This would be especially true if the test she took was Kiersey's, which focuses exclusively on external behaviour. Obviously, a lot of her external behaviour resembles ISFJ, because she's been trying her whole life to modify her behaviour to become more like an ESI.

You think an SEE that is likely married to an SLE would be able to get her kids to clean up after themselves? I don't think you have the correct concept of what Se is if you say yes to this.

[Marie84]

it's almost like Krig has a crystal ball.... for I do believe that is exactly what's going on here.

In that case I'd probably go with EII>ESI

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent
There is probably some self projection here

She doesnt sound like a horrible person. She just sounds very depressed and as though she has given up on life. Havent we all been through that phase?... It becomes a lifestyle for many. I lean towards ESI from the descriptions given. Ive gotten to points where I see no reason in pretending to be having a good time when I feel like shit, and fuck those people who judge me for it-- just let me be invisible.

That's just Fe rejecting and weak Fe in general IMU

[redbaron]

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent

This is *exactly* right. She wants everyone else to change, not her. And she's not very proactive.

[blackburry]

bleh, whatever. EII then.

[Beautiful sky]

In that case I'd probably go with EII>ESI

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent

ESI, like EII are very committed to relationships as are Fi types. Se has nothing to do with "motivation" to remove yourself from your relationship. All introverts are passive aggressive because they don't want to impact an object and cause a feedback from objects; all introverts will act like the description you described in the above.

[redbaron]

All introverts are passive aggressive because they don't want to impact an object and cause a feedback from objects; all introverts will act like the description you described in the above.

extroverts can be passive aggressive too. I think it has some to do with the health of the individual. In this case, she's unhealthy so you're right that her type probably has little to do with her passive-aggressive behavior.

[Lobo]

The one thing that comes off as being very unlikely though is that she's an EII married to an SLE. Other than that, given her apparent level of anxiety, she could even be LSI with social anxiety imo. Psychological quirks can be a serious confounding factor when typing people, considering how other types can have anxiety/OCD as well and then one suspects them of being a judging type because it. I think it's much better to type someone in their healthy/stable state. FWIW, I'm not like her.

[FDG]

In that case I'd probably go with EII>ESI

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent

ESI, like EII are very committed to relationships as are Fi types. Se has nothing to do with "motivation" to remove yourself from your relationship. All introverts are passive aggressive because they don't want to impact an object and cause a feedback from objects; all introverts will act like the description you described in the above.

That's generally correct...

[redbaron]

The one thing that comes off as being very unlikely though is that she's an EII married to an SLE. Other than that, given her apparent level of anxiety, she could even be LSI with social anxiety imo. Psychological quirks can be a serious confounding factor when typing people, considering how other types can have anxiety/OCD as well and then one suspects them of being a judging type because it. I think it's much better to type someone in their healthy/stable state. FWIW, I'm not like her.

Yeah I agree. But you know, it's not unlikely that she's EII. They've had a pretty bad marriage from year.... two (right around the time that the "falling in love" feeling fades away). They're still together only for religious reasons and the kids.

[Lobo]

Yeah I agree. But you know, it's not unlikely that she's EII. They've had a pretty bad marriage from year.... two (right around the time that the "falling in love" feeling fades away). They're still together only for religious reasons and the kids.

Sure, I mean, maybe the sex was too good for both of them to opt out lol. In any case, it does sound pretty sad.

[Krig the Viking]

The one thing that comes off as being very unlikely though is that she's an EII married to an SLE. Other than that, given her apparent level of anxiety, she could even be LSI with social anxiety imo. Psychological quirks can be a serious confounding factor when typing people, considering how other types can have anxiety/OCD as well and then one suspects them of being a judging type because it. I think it's much better to type someone in their healthy/stable state. FWIW, I'm not like her.

Yeah I agree. But you know, it's not unlikely that she's EII. They've had a pretty bad marriage from year.... two (right around the time that the "falling in love" feeling fades away). They're still together only for religious reasons and the kids.

Indeed. My parents are EII and LSI (Super-Ego), and have been married for around 30 years. Same story -- they're married, but for most of those years they didn't really have a "relationship". Dad, the LSI, "checked out" in the same way you describe the SLE doing, and their marriage also survived for religious reasons and for us kids. I can definitely imagine a Conflict relationship playing out in a similar manner, especially if one or both of them is psychologically unhealthy.

It's been my experience, from my observations so far, that whenever there's a couple with a less than compatible inter-type relationship, usually they have subtypes/personas which are compatible, which is what led them to make that mistake. If your friend is esi-EII, my guess would be that her husband is lie-SLE.

This is of course highly speculative, but would you say that her husband normally has a fairly socially dominant personality? Probably in some kind of leadership position at work, where he makes a lot of important decisions that other people carry out? Would you say that the reason she was attracted to him was because he seemed like a good provider, not only able to take care of her practical Te needs, but also capable of fulfilling her need to project an impressive and successful Se image?

I'm curious to see how detailed I can make these predictions and still be accurate.

[MisterNi]

It's been my experience, from my observations so far, that whenever there's a couple with a less than compatible inter-type relationship, usually they have subtypes/personas which are compatible, which is what led them to make that mistake. If your friend is esi-EII, my guess would be that her husband is lie-SLE.

That's an interesting view and probably accurate to some extent. I suppose a consequence of such a phenomena is that even opposing quadras can form relationships, but would be far from ideal. If you'd like to write an article on it, I'd love to read it.

[redbaron]

Indeed. My parents are EII and LSI (Super-Ego), and have been married for around 30 years. Same story -- they're married, but for most of those years they didn't really have a "relationship". Dad, the LSI, "checked out" in the same way you describe the SLE doing, and their marriage also survived for religious reasons and for us kids. I can definitely imagine a Conflict relationship playing out in a similar manner, especially if one or both of them is psychologically unhealthy.

It's been my experience, from my observations so far, that whenever there's a couple with a less than compatible inter-type relationship, usually they have subtypes/personas which are compatible, which is what led them to make that mistake. If your friend is esi-EII, my guess would be that her husband is lie-SLE.

This is of course highly speculative, but would you say that her husband normally has a fairly socially dominant personality? Probably in some kind of leadership position at work, where he makes a lot of important decisions that other people carry out? Would you say that the reason she was attracted to him was because he seemed like a good provider, not only able to take care of her practical Te needs, but also capable of fulfilling her need to project an impressive and successful Se image?

I'm curious to see how detailed I can make these predictions and still be accurate.

oh my freakin gosh, that's exactly correct. Absolutely. Krig, you're amazing.

And in response to the other person who said maybe the sex is good.... there is no sex.

[Krig the Viking]

oh my freakin gosh, that's exactly correct. Absolutely. Krig, you're amazing.

Awesome. This is exciting. I knew I was on to something with my current line of research, but this is the first chance I've had to make these sorts of detailed and falsifiable predictions. w00t!

That's an interesting view and probably accurate to some extent. I suppose a consequence of such a phenomena is that even opposing quadras can form relationships, but would be far from ideal. If you'd like to write an article on it, I'd love to read it.

I'm in the middle of doing a lot of research and thinking on the subject of the Persona and subtypes, at some point I plan to write a big article about it all. It's exciting and interesting stuff, at least in my opinion.

[InkStrider]

It's been my experience, from my observations so far, that whenever there's a couple with a less than compatible inter-type relationship, usually they have subtypes/personas which are compatible, which is what led them to make that mistake. If your friend is esi-EII, my guess would be that her husband is lie-SLE.

This is of course highly speculative, but would you say that her husband normally has a fairly socially dominant personality? Probably in some kind of leadership position at work, where he makes a lot of important decisions that other people carry out? Would you say that the reason she was attracted to him was because he seemed like a good provider, not only able to take care of her practical Te needs, but also capable of fulfilling her need to project an impressive and successful Se image?

I'm curious to see how detailed I can make these predictions and still be accurate.

I really like your persona/external behaviour vs internal information processing, nature vs nurture theory. It corresponds with my own thoughts on the matter.

That's an interesting view and probably accurate to some extent. I suppose a consequence of such a phenomena is that even opposing quadras can form relationships, but would be far from ideal. If you'd like to write an article on it, I'd love to read it.

Exactly.