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Thread: the moron who invented dualization

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    Thumbs down the moron who invented dualization

    WTF ? its the second time I break a relationship with an LSE ; they are supposed to be my dual. There is actually things I CANT stand with them, yes I cant and will never be used to it.

    1) Te dominance : supposed to make me happy with a sort of organisational competence transfert or idk what, but they seem having 0 time for just a bit letting things go, always need to organize something like the place of the toilet brush, especially things that dont correspond to their vision of practicality (ie 90% of what I do) this SUCKS. Im sourounded by Te and my personnality DISINTEGRATE and end up Te anxious at a point I begin to ask me if im not Te phobic POLR .
    2) Se demonstrative : on the contrary to the theory, Se demonstrative is OBVIOUS in estj I know, and this DONT FIT AT ALL with my Se least resistance. Yes, yes. Yes im very aware and careful about Se, and ready to run fast when I see an embryon of Se into other. So. some are very self assured controlling brat/auto-convinced sociable even if 0 real skill, worst my last gf was somewhat emotionnaly controlling to , its freak, damn I was becoming paranoid...
    3) Fi demonstrative OMG FI DEMONSTRATIVE or the Fi rush, sudden value shot when discussing something calmly with other (especially if no intellectual education), monolog with inappropriate defense of some Fi common place ... They like sometime advice in this area but seem to feel this as a profond attack of the ego, the two LSE I know was really reluctant about refactoring or polishing abrasive corner... Fi discussion are always closed quickly...

    now im reggressed and decide like a 12 yo guy that ill never go with another girl even if TRUE and TRUE and PERFECT love.
    "The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."

    -- Maurice Chapelain

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    Maybe you're mistyping yourself or others.
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    Do you want comfort or explanation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Do you want comfort or explanation?
    A brownie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel View Post
    I think people ought to start taking diabetes seriously

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    Default Duality

    Do you have experience with LSEs growing up?
    Many times on this forum i see people having a hard time dualizing because they didn't grow up around their dual. There is also the chance that someone is being mistyped.

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    Maybe you need to find the right person instead.

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    hello. i dont know if youre aware, but there are some things you seem to be misunderstanding. Fi+Ne have Ni demonstrative, which is what LSEs are supposed to generally appreciate getting because they don't put much ego time into it and would benefit from quick Ni insights. it's also normal for an LSE (theoretically anyway) to take their ethical considerations seriously because if their ethics give them doubt, it messes with their Te. this is sorta how Jung developed the functions.

    what you say about them being controlling and perfectionists to the point that they won't let you do anything on your own is somethinge I noticed as well. i imagine this is a representation of an LSE that focuses so much on Te that it borderlines on obsessively neurotic. so maybe you haven't met a well rounded LSE.

    only thing i personally dislike about this type is that due to their reluctance on Ni, with some of them you have to be very direct about your needs and intentions or they pretty much blame you when they go unnoticed or don't get met. same seems to go with when you need some kind of emotional support, it's expected that you tell them and know how they can help. have you noticed this or is it more of a personality querk of some LSEs?

    I don't know if socionics can necessarily help you here, but I hope I helped somewhat.

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    Hm, yeah. I don't like all of my duals, there are other things to consider like maturity and intelligence.

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    You just need to find a very nice LSE woman and everything will be alright. Anyway, I keep reading mormon instead of moron.
    Last edited by Absurd; 08-22-2011 at 10:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post
    WTF ? its the second time I break a relationship with an LSE ; they are supposed to be my dual. There is actually things I CANT stand with them, yes I cant and will never be used to it.

    1) Te dominance : supposed to make me happy with a sort of organisational competence transfert or idk what, but they seem having 0 time for just a bit letting things go, always need to organize something like the place of the toilet brush, especially things that dont correspond to their vision of practicality (ie 90% of what I do) this SUCKS. Im sourounded by Te and my personnality DISINTEGRATE and end up Te anxious at a point I begin to ask me if im not Te phobic POLR .
    2) Se demonstrative : on the contrary to the theory, Se demonstrative is OBVIOUS in estj I know, and this DONT FIT AT ALL with my Se least resistance. Yes, yes. Yes im very aware and careful about Se, and ready to run fast when I see an embryon of Se into other. So. some are very self assured controlling brat/auto-convinced sociable even if 0 real skill, worst my last gf was somewhat emotionnaly controlling to , its freak, damn I was becoming paranoid...
    3) Fi demonstrative OMG FI DEMONSTRATIVE or the Fi rush, sudden value shot when discussing something calmly with other (especially if no intellectual education), monolog with inappropriate defense of some Fi common place ... They like sometime advice in this area but seem to feel this as a profond attack of the ego, the two LSE I know was really reluctant about refactoring or polishing abrasive corner... Fi discussion are always closed quickly...
    You sound like you could be describing an LSI... I'm sure about other LSE's but my Se is almost non existent and my Fi isn't that sporadic just weak, sporadic usually points to role. Also I found Ti dom's can be a little OCD with organisation so that's not really Te related (I'm pretty organised but i'm also fairly relaxed about it).

    Anyway yeah like what everyone else says not every dual will be perfect, there's plenty of non type related factors etc. etc.
    If you want to analyse it more from a socionics perspective you can look into subtypes, but the matching there seems a little fuzzy i'd just go with which description you like better and it's not something I would put a huge amount of weight in.

    Quote Originally Posted by givemeaname View Post
    only thing i personally dislike about this type is that due to their reluctance on Ni, with some of them you have to be very direct about your needs and intentions or they pretty much blame you when they go unnoticed or don't get met. same seems to go with when you need some kind of emotional support, it's expected that you tell them and know how they can help. have you noticed this or is it more of a personality querk of some LSEs?

    I don't know if socionics can necessarily help you here, but I hope I helped somewhat.
    Are you equating Ni to mind reading? I think you'll find Sensory ego's are better at noticing whats right in front of them. Being out of touch with someones needs and feelings would be more to do with ethics (Fi in particular) I would think, so yeah it still applies to LSE's . I would say being a DS function it may be something that we get more in tune with over the course of a relationship *shrugs* hopefully anyway.

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    By the way, my earlier question was a serious one. I'm just waiting for OP to reply before I say more.

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    mmmh Im sorry, i was close to consider to remove this post cuz I write it a bit drunk if not completely.
    Ill let it on the forum cuz there is good advice into it, thanx.

    You sound like you could be describing an LSI...
    ive only increased boring trait (for me), perhaps this now sound like an LSI...

    it's also normal for an LSE (theoretically anyway) to take their ethical considerations seriously because if their ethics give them doubt, it messes with their Te. this is sorta how Jung developed the functions.
    this things work too for Fi dom ? my view of things change often, so im Te-messed :s ?
    "The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."

    -- Maurice Chapelain

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    @OP Duality is a myth. Intertype relations only determines compatibility in theory. In reality, people can get along with healthy individuals of any type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen
    Maybe you need to find the right person instead.
    This.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post
    WTF ? its the second time I break a relationship with an LSE ; they are supposed to be my dual. There is actually things I CANT stand with them, yes I cant and will never be used to it.

    1) Te dominance : supposed to make me happy with a sort of organisational competence transfert or idk what, but they seem having 0 time for just a bit letting things go, always need to organize something like the place of the toilet brush, especially things that dont correspond to their vision of practicality (ie 90% of what I do) this SUCKS. Im sourounded by Te and my personnality DISINTEGRATE and end up Te anxious at a point I begin to ask me if im not Te phobic POLR .
    2) Se demonstrative : on the contrary to the theory, Se demonstrative is OBVIOUS in estj I know, and this DONT FIT AT ALL with my Se least resistance. Yes, yes. Yes im very aware and careful about Se, and ready to run fast when I see an embryon of Se into other. So. some are very self assured controlling brat/auto-convinced sociable even if 0 real skill, worst my last gf was somewhat emotionnaly controlling to , its freak, damn I was becoming paranoid...
    3) Fi demonstrative OMG FI DEMONSTRATIVE or the Fi rush, sudden value shot when discussing something calmly with other (especially if no intellectual education), monolog with inappropriate defense of some Fi common place ... They like sometime advice in this area but seem to feel this as a profond attack of the ego, the two LSE I know was really reluctant about refactoring or polishing abrasive corner... Fi discussion are always closed quickly...

    now im reggressed and decide like a 12 yo guy that ill never go with another girl even if TRUE and TRUE and PERFECT love.
    Mistyping D-LSIs is so much fun, is it not?

    btw Moredhel, LSEs do not have nonexistent Se -- it's just devalued. Se is actually the strongest element in an LSE's psyche. Just something to think about.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    btw Moredhel, LSEs do not have nonexistent Se -- it's just devalued. Se is actually the strongest element in an LSE's psyche. Just something to think about.
    Strong Like Billy Mays


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    btw Moredhel, LSEs do not have nonexistent Se -- it's just devalued. Se is actually the strongest element in an LSE's psyche. Just something to think about.
    I said I had non existent Se, at least non existent in making up who I am, it's still there but it's the most situational and subtle of all my functions and I doubt a partner would ever observe it in me at least not in the way that was mentioned in OP.

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    That does not sound too much like duality, even though I've had some bad experiences with ESIs myself. I believe you might have to consider being IEI.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Maybe you're mistyping yourself or others.
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I believe you might have to consider being IEI.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That does not sound too much like duality, even though I've had some bad experiences with ESIs myself. I believe you might have to consider being IEI.
    did you read the OP? That description was superego and ego as all hell. Her type's right, her "dual's" is wrong.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Maybe you need to find the right person instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post
    WTF ? its the second time I break a relationship with an LSE ; they are supposed to be my dual. There is actually things I CANT stand with them, yes I cant and will never be used to it.

    1) Te dominance : supposed to make me happy with a sort of organisational competence transfert or idk what, but they seem having 0 time for just a bit letting things go, always need to organize something like the place of the toilet brush, especially things that dont correspond to their vision of practicality (ie 90% of what I do) this SUCKS. Im sourounded by Te and my personnality DISINTEGRATE and end up Te anxious at a point I begin to ask me if im not Te phobic POLR .
    2) Se demonstrative : on the contrary to the theory, Se demonstrative is OBVIOUS in estj I know, and this DONT FIT AT ALL with my Se least resistance. Yes, yes. Yes im very aware and careful about Se, and ready to run fast when I see an embryon of Se into other. So. some are very self assured controlling brat/auto-convinced sociable even if 0 real skill, worst my last gf was somewhat emotionnaly controlling to , its freak, damn I was becoming paranoid...
    3) Fi demonstrative OMG FI DEMONSTRATIVE or the Fi rush, sudden value shot when discussing something calmly with other (especially if no intellectual education), monolog with inappropriate defense of some Fi common place ... They like sometime advice in this area but seem to feel this as a profond attack of the ego, the two LSE I know was really reluctant about refactoring or polishing abrasive corner... Fi discussion are always closed quickly...

    now im reggressed and decide like a 12 yo guy that ill never go with another girl even if TRUE and TRUE and PERFECT love.
    I have to admit, it always bothers me a little when people are so quick to say that just because two supposed duals aren't getting along well that someone must be mistyped. While this may well be the case, there are so many more layers to a person than their sociotype--as many forum members have noted. I think it has to do with a couple things like how much time they've spent with a dual prior to the relationship, their intelligence (particularly emotional intelligence), general maturity, upbringing, and so on.

    I have known some LSE who are very particular about where things go. For example: the bowls go in this cupboard and it is almost painful for this LSE to see them in any other place, lol. If you wash the dishes but neglect to rinse out the sink to their liking, this LSE has been known to yell. To yell about something like that makes no sense to me--why not just calmly ask for the bowls to be moved and explain your reasoning? (LSEs here might agree with me.) Neglecting some aspects of day-to-day practical tasks is quite easy for an EII if we haven't been taught the best method or had it established into our routine.

    Although I love you guys, LSEs (probably the less dualized and less mature ones) can easily be very off-putting sometimes: "No, you're doing this wrong! I can't believe you don't know how to do this correctly! What kind of person doesn't know..." etc. They might not say those words exactly, but that emotional negativity can come across very strongly to an EII, if you catch my drift. Too much Te focus and pressure can make me worried that if I don't do things to their specifications, I will have to deal with the anger which follows. For some reason, process can sometimes take precedence over the person, even (I would wager) if that person is a dual and a significant other.

    Also... the mystery of suggestive Fi. I have seen LSEs totally shut down when I "take the wheel" of a conversation and steer it in an Fi-heavy direction. Sometimes this frustrates me because I've just listened attentively to a long Te speech, but when it's "my turn" the LSE has trouble masking the fact that he really is not enjoying himself anymore. I have often gotten the impression that they become defensive because this is not something they understand. But I'm not here to point out the lack of Fi and pour salt in an LSE's insecurities! I'm just talking about how I think the ideal relationship is best sought for. I'm sure I have come across somewhat didactic though, which is something I'm working on. It's funny to me when I say something nice about how much I really appreciate them, etc. and they're just like, "meh."

    This same LSE grew up with friends in a tough neighborhood and often engaged in witty banter which typically involved playfully making fun of each other. Kind of a "whoever comes up with the best insult wins" game. Of course, there is the unstated bond which dictates that your friends are mocking you because they are comfortable with you and care about you (you don't really think that Bob is stupid--you respect him), but it's not really appropriate to be Feeling lovey-dovey with your guy friends in certain American circles. Being drunk is kind of an excuse for that rare, "I love you, man" but that's a topic for another thread. My point is, I'm always reading about how deltas don't appreciate that kind of stuff while betas on the other hand want an "anything goes" environment where no one takes things personally.

    Sorry for rambling!
    EII/INFj

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    I have to admit, it always bothers me a little when people are so quick to say that just because two supposed duals aren't getting along well that someone must be mistyped.
    Well...we are in a typology forum sooooo it makes sense to exhaust the type related reasons before resorting to the catch-all of environmental issues. Chances are type can explain a great deal more than it's given credit for if you go deep enough, it just seems to make a lot of people uncomfortable and they cry environmental factors before you get the chance .
    It might be about 50/50 but it makes sense that we focus on the first 50, I don't think anyone truly believes that type explains everything about a person.

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    I can see what the op is getting at here. I had similar problems with my SLI. He gave me shit about the way I'd let dishes soak in the sink, saying it was disgusting. Did he have the right to push his washing up views on me? I don't think so. If he did the dishes once in a while maybe, but he only did them once in a blue moon so he can take his opinions and stick them where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned. I did learn a thing or two about efficiency however so I can't really complain.

    I think our needs can get overlooked since we are the more accomodating ones in the relationship and they make it all about them and that can wear thin after a while. Although I think the phrase "seek to understand, then to be understood" applies to this dynamic. I think the EII's and IEE's make more of an effort to understand where the other is coming from first and once they understand it becomes easier to get the LSE's and SLI's to understand us. We're just more understanding. We're just better I guess. lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eye of the Potato View Post
    op is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eye of the Potato View Post
    I can see what the op is getting at here. I had similar problems with my SLI. He gave me shit about the way I'd let dishes soak in the sink, saying it was disgusting. Did he have the right to push his washing up views on me? I don't think so. If he did the dishes once in a while maybe, but he only did them once in a blue moon so he can take his opinions and stick them where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned. I did learn a thing or two about efficiency however so I can't really complain.

    I think our needs can get overlooked since we are the more accomodating ones in the relationship and they make it all about them and that can wear thin after a while. Although I think the phrase "seek to understand, then to be understood" applies to this dynamic. I think the EII's and IEE's make more of an effort to understand where the other is coming from first and once they understand it becomes easier to get the LSE's and SLI's to understand us. We're just more understanding. We're just better I guess. lol.
    I agree with this as well.
    Having experience growing up with a grandmother who was a LSE i definitely see what you are saying. The only thing i would say is that she wasn't as harsh with me as the way you guys are saying other LSE's are. Maybe its because i was her granddaughter. I don't know.

    I also think if EII's and IEE's would voice when LSE's and SLI's are out of line that would help them to know what they are doing wrong and have more empathy. Because of my experience with an LSE being a major part of my life it has helped me be more outspoken when i don't like how someone is treating me. I think that is something that Delta humanitarians need to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Maybe you're mistyping yourself or others.
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I believe you might have to consider being IEI.
    .
    .

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    Wow alot of interesting messages, Jarno and UDP. I mean cmon, we all know duality is this big perfect idyllic thing where there are never any problems, at least not ones we talk about on here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphanous View Post
    This same LSE grew up with friends in a tough neighborhood and often engaged in witty banter which typically involved playfully making fun of each other. Kind of a "whoever comes up with the best insult wins" game. Of course, there is the unstated bond which dictates that your friends are mocking you because they are comfortable with you and care about you (you don't really think that Bob is stupid--you respect him), but it's not really appropriate to be Feeling lovey-dovey with your guy friends in certain American circles. Being drunk is kind of an excuse for that rare, "I love you, man" but that's a topic for another thread. My point is, I'm always reading about how deltas don't appreciate that kind of stuff while betas on the other hand want an "anything goes" environment where no one takes things personally.
    Rambling is ok! And regarding the above, yes, Deltas love to be witty. The general difference between Deltas and Betas is that Deltas don't mind teasing in a playful manner, as long as it's not personally insulting or really going to hurt someone, whereas Betas prefer that EVERYTHING being said is ok, that if you hold back how you feel than it's not proper Fe and expression of how you feel, and that anyone who is offended should just have thicker skin. Telling someone you hope they should die, or you think they're a stupid piece of crap, is acceptable in Beta, if that's how you feel. Deltas, at least how I think and agree, generally believe a person's subconscious can't really take jokes, and it's not appropriate to dig into someone, or rip into them, but to be polite and appropriate. But yes, clever/witty is always acceptable in Delta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphanous View Post
    I have to admit, it always bothers me a little when people are so quick to say that just because two supposed duals aren't getting along well that someone must be mistyped. While this may well be the case, there are so many more layers to a person than their sociotype--as many forum members have noted. I think it has to do with a couple things like how much time they've spent with a dual prior to the relationship, their intelligence (particularly emotional intelligence), general maturity, upbringing, and so on.

    I have known some LSE who are very particular about where things go. For example: the bowls go in this cupboard and it is almost painful for this LSE to see them in any other place, lol. If you wash the dishes but neglect to rinse out the sink to their liking, this LSE has been known to yell. To yell about something like that makes no sense to me--why not just calmly ask for the bowls to be moved and explain your reasoning? (LSEs here might agree with me.) Neglecting some aspects of day-to-day practical tasks is quite easy for an EII if we haven't been taught the best method or had it established into our routine.

    Although I love you guys, LSEs (probably the less dualized and less mature ones) can easily be very off-putting sometimes: "No, you're doing this wrong! I can't believe you don't know how to do this correctly! What kind of person doesn't know..." etc. They might not say those words exactly, but that emotional negativity can come across very strongly to an EII, if you catch my drift. Too much Te focus and pressure can make me worried that if I don't do things to their specifications, I will have to deal with the anger which follows. For some reason, process can sometimes take precedence over the person, even (I would wager) if that person is a dual and a significant other.

    Also... the mystery of suggestive Fi. I have seen LSEs totally shut down when I "take the wheel" of a conversation and steer it in an Fi-heavy direction. Sometimes this frustrates me because I've just listened attentively to a long Te speech, but when it's "my turn" the LSE has trouble masking the fact that he really is not enjoying himself anymore. I have often gotten the impression that they become defensive because this is not something they understand. But I'm not here to point out the lack of Fi and pour salt in an LSE's insecurities! I'm just talking about how I think the ideal relationship is best sought for. I'm sure I have come across somewhat didactic though, which is something I'm working on. It's funny to me when I say something nice about how much I really appreciate them, etc. and they're just like, "meh."
    and lolz to all of this. Yeah, I've very particular with where things go around the house, or how stuff should be done. The paragraph about yelling and flipping out, was me when I was younger, and less mature. I've said it before, but I believe my Mom may be Delta NF. We've fought through the years many times, as is normal for any teenagers lol, but at the same time we actually helped each other understand better. Now that I'm an adult, I appreciate her advice now very much, in understanding people, and she appreciates my organization, and helping her get things done in her life more, get things done faster, so she can help others better, and have more fun time to spend chatting haha. So she welcomes when I help her get work done faster. And she appreciates my opinion very much too.

    To be honest, when you describe it being 'unfair' for LSEs to direct you, and you take so much Te, but then get defensive when you pour out Fi, well... we don't normally consider the 'ethics' of it. As a teenager, and even now some, it frustrates me how someone can be so disorganized and sloppy, and waste their time, and then get defensive when someone tells them a better way of doing things. Like, I'm helping you get more done faster, so why are you mad? I'm helping you. Why do you get all defensive? What's your problem? <--- Obviously I'm mature enough now to understand people don't like being told what to do, and often are happy doing things their own way and sometimes don't even realize they're doing them wrong, but those thoughts crossed my mind many times as a teenager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joven Erudito89 View Post
    I also think if EII's and IEE's would voice when LSE's and SLI's are out of line that would help them to know what they are doing wrong and have more empathy.
    Yes. I've been told that I'm 'bossy' before, without even realizing it. As I alluded to above, I feel like if I'm helping someone do something better, ie. faster or an easier way, than I'm helping them, and before I understood people's perspectives better (Ne), I don't understand why someone would refuse free help. It's illogical. If time is money, and I'm showing you how to do something faster, and save you time, I'm offering you a huge benefit. And then you get mad at me for helping you?

    Regarding bossiness , let me give an example. One time I was carrying stuff from my car into the house, boxes, a bunch of miscellaneous stuff, and was planning to do it all myself. My mom offers to help me, like she usually does, even though I didn't want her doing any work. As usual, she gets mad if I don't let her help lol, don't let her show she cares, so I give in and let her help me so she doesn't get upset.

    I start directing her where I'd like everything to go, and then she gets upset that I'm being bossy and telling her what to do. Lol. Like I can't win. She gets mad if I don't let her help, but then when I tell her where I'd like things, she gets frustrated.

    I explained I was telling her where to put things because she offered to help me. That she didn't need to help me if she didn't want to. I said if she didn't want to help me anymore, that it was ok. After this, she was ok, and gladly carried a couple more things into the house and was ok after that.

    So yeah. I do strongly agree EIIs and IEEs need to speak up more. It's examples like this, where I didn't even realize I was being bossy, that I can look back on now, because my Mom spoke up, to help me realize and understand when I'm annoying people, or understand why that is, if I'm telling them what to do or being too pushy/bossy. If she hadn't spoken up, I wouldn't have grown! I would be furthered confused by people, thinking they get mad for no reason at all. Like I explained, I viewed it as helping people, and still do, but understand now better that there's a time and place for it, to only offer help when someone asks, and how to have tact a bit better.

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    That was a very eye-opening post, Mountain Dew. Thank you!

    Yeah, I definitely need to work on speaking out a bit more. I just get torn between trying to be understanding and accommodating and still being like, "Hey! I'm part of this relationship too and I'm not cool with the way you're talking to me right now" without sounding like I'm nagging and just being overly sensitive (not that I'm not overly sensitive, lol).

    God knows that no ESTj wants to sit around and discuss the relationship! They want to BE IN the relationship and enjoy it, not talk about it. I just struggle to remember sometimes that it's not because they aren't sympathetic to the way I feel or not concerned about the relationship. I just have to allow them to come to me when they feel the need to talk about that kind of stuff and be more confident in that quiet, INFj way. When they sense that confidence, it seems to really turn them on, in both senses of the word.

    Hey delta STs -- what is your "love language?"

    http://www.5lovelanguages.com/learn-...ove-languages/

    -acts of service
    -quality time
    -receiving gifts
    -physical touch
    -words of affirmation
    EII/INFj

    OVE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphanous View Post
    Hey delta STs -- what is your "love language?"

    http://www.5lovelanguages.com/learn-...ove-languages/

    -acts of service
    -quality time
    -receiving gifts
    -physical touch
    -words of affirmation
    Acts of service and quality time. If I can't do anything, render any help to take away their problems I feel like a useless piece of shit. Quality time is a must. The more important the person is to me, the more of my time I am willing to give to them, and I expect the same in return.

    Imo though, the magic of duality has been blown out of proportions. A simplistic example: Fi gives me a degree of comfort because I value trust. Ne helps because it provides me with ideas to help me get out when I'm stuck in quandaries. I get along with INFjs because serious relationships and trust is important to them and they are good at seeing and giving positive perspectives/suggestions to help pull me out of despair.

    It is these particular traits and attitudes that I value and not "INFj" persay. If an INFp value these as well, there's no reason why we wouldn't be able to get along well in real life. Though these INFps would probably be "accused" of being INFjs for being that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphanous View Post

    http://www.5lovelanguages.com/learn-...ove-languages/

    -acts of service
    -quality time
    -receiving gifts
    -physical touch
    -words of affirmation
    I like all of them .

    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post
    It is these particular traits and attitudes that I value and not "INFj" persay. If an INFp value these as well, there's no reason why we wouldn't be able to get along well in real life. Though these INFps would probably be "accused" of being INFjs for being that way.
    I used to think that way too. From an IE standpoint, you could experience duality from anyone if they are proficient with certain functions and use them a certain way. However, if you think about it, to say that is like saying that a dog in theory could jump on a toilet and take a dump every time it has to go (and flush with its paw). While the dog can do it, I bet you won't find one that does it naturally. It's also uncomfortable for the dog, so it would rather stick with what is easiest for it to do. You have to look at what actually goes on in real life, those tendencies at play, rather than what could happen in theory. But yeah, I do agree that the magic of duality gets blown out of proportion by some people. I used to a long time before too actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post
    Fi gives me a degree of comfort because I value trust. Ne helps because it provides me with ideas to help me get out when I'm stuck in quandaries. I get along with INFjs because serious relationships and trust is important to them and they are good at seeing and giving positive perspectives/suggestions to help pull me out of despair.


    I like this a lot.

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    actually i take back what i said. duals SUCK.They really do have a way of hurting you to the core.

    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    actually i take back what i said. duals SUCK.They really do have a way of hurting you to the core.

    The deeper a person can get the more they can hurt you.
    Hope you're OK assuming that comment was from a recent real life experience.

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    I'm starting to feel a little disillusioned by duality at the moment myself. In the beginning I was blown away by it, because it explained why my feelings for my SLI were so intense but we seem to have hit a brick wall and I'm not even sure I want to climb over it at this point.

    We were too pretty unhealthy individuals when we first got together and we both made a few stupid mistakes in the beginning which has tainted the relationship the whole way through. The mistakes I made caused him to become paranoid and controlling and it is starting to kill my feelings for him. I feel like I have no freedom and for an IEE that is like a death sentence.

    On the one hand he has been good for me as it's toughened me up and helped me to be more logical. It has been really therapeutic and healing, just like the duality description says. But on the other hand I feel like my needs are being overlooked and explaining my point of view seems to fall on deaf ears. He made me who I am today but he's so caught up in the things I did pre-duality that he doesn't recognise how much I have actually changed. Sometimes he really values my opinion and likes it when I put a positive spin on his negative views, but he can be equally dismissive of me.
    He gives the best compliments but at the same time because of how much he is hurting he chips away at my self esteem too. It's all so confusing.

    I love the idea of duality because I feel it brings a bit of order to my understanding of the world. Like there is this underlying mathematical code built into our genes. Maybe it's difficult for some people to make it work because we have not yet evolved well enough? The last century was all about industrial and technological advancement/revolution. Maybe this century is about a love revolution? I feel like we are all pioneers, figuring this stuff out, and generations to come will look back on all our posts and laugh their heads off at how confusing we find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joven Erudito89 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eye of the Potato View Post
    I can see what the op is getting at here. I had similar problems with my SLI. He gave me shit about the way I'd let dishes soak in the sink, saying it was disgusting. Did he have the right to push his washing up views on me? I don't think so. If he did the dishes once in a while maybe, but he only did them once in a blue moon so he can take his opinions and stick them where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned. I did learn a thing or two about efficiency however so I can't really complain.

    I think our needs can get overlooked since we are the more accomodating ones in the relationship and they make it all about them and that can wear thin after a while. Although I think the phrase "seek to understand, then to be understood" applies to this dynamic. I think the EII's and IEE's make more of an effort to understand where the other is coming from first and once they understand it becomes easier to get the LSE's and SLI's to understand us. We're just more understanding. We're just better I guess. lol.
    I agree with this as well.
    Having experience growing up with a grandmother who was a LSE i definitely see what you are saying. The only thing i would say is that she wasn't as harsh with me as the way you guys are saying other LSE's are. Maybe its because i was her granddaughter. I don't know.

    I also think if EII's and IEE's would voice when LSE's and SLI's are out of line that would help them to know what they are doing wrong and have more empathy. Because of my experience with an LSE being a major part of my life it has helped me be more outspoken when i don't like how someone is treating me. I think that is something that Delta humanitarians need to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Wow alot of interesting messages, Jarno and UDP. I mean cmon, we all know duality is this big perfect idyllic thing where there are never any problems, at least not ones we talk about on here
    you remember the thread "duals hate eachother more often than not"?

    It was started by me...


    apology accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    I used to think that way too. From an IE standpoint, you could experience duality from anyone if they are proficient with certain functions and use them a certain way. However, if you think about it, to say that is like saying that a dog in theory could jump on a toilet and take a dump every time it has to go (and flush with its paw). While the dog can do it, I bet you won't find one that does it naturally. It's also uncomfortable for the dog, so it would rather stick with what is easiest for it to do. You have to look at what actually goes on in real life, those tendencies at play, rather than what could happen in theory. But yeah, I do agree that the magic of duality gets blown out of proportion by some people. I used to a long time before too actually.
    Oh so you're talking about tendencies here. I agree as habits and worldviews are hard to change. I choose to focus on types as a collection of manifest traits in any case.

    In daily life, duality doesn't matter as long as there are people around who are proficient in the usage of the function you need at the particular time (which could be anybody). It's not possible to only need 2 functions every time. And just because duals are attuned to the particular function doesn't mean that they would produce the quality and skilled output that you require at the particular time, nor does it mean that they would produce it for you and not against you. An experienced non dual who has an invested interest in me could serve me just fine.

    I think the issue of compatibility is far more complicated and require more work than simply the existence of external duality, which is my main problem with socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post
    Fi gives me a degree of comfort because I value trust. Ne helps because it provides me with ideas to help me get out when I'm stuck in quandaries. I get along with INFjs because serious relationships and trust is important to them and they are good at seeing and giving positive perspectives/suggestions to help pull me out of despair.


    I like this a lot.
    I don't.

    My point is, everyone values trust and need help when they're stuck. It just means that I tend to get stuck and wallow in despair more often than not by being foolishly stubborn and fervently hope that people have enough of a close relationship with me not to mind my moments stupidity too much and like me just the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eye of the Potato
    I love the idea of duality because I feel it brings a bit of order to my understanding of the world. Like there is this underlying mathematical code built into our genes. Maybe it's difficult for some people to make it work because we have not yet evolved well enough? The last century was all about industrial and technological advancement/revolution. Maybe this century is about a love revolution? I feel like we are all pioneers, figuring this stuff out, and generations to come will look back on all our posts and laugh their heads off at how confusing we find it.
    Interesting perspective. Perhaps at the end, we'd end up discovering that socionics is totally useless and that everyone is engaging in arguments over nothing, by attempting to jam square pegs into round holes. Wasted time better spent in more practical pursuits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post

    Interesting perspective. Perhaps at the end, we'd end up discovering that socionics is totally useless and that everyone is engaging in arguments over nothing, by attempting to jam square pegs into round holes. Wasted time better spent in more practical pursuits.
    Time will tell I suppose. I think one thing we can all agree on though, is that conflictors don't mesh well. Over the long haul.

    Or though, who knows, maybe that's what we are all evolving towards? Loving our conflictors! Who's to say? Fcuk I hope not, duality is hard enough!

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