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Thread: Another Hidden Agenda Thread

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    Default Another Hidden Agenda Thread

    The following was sparked by some of what I read here, especially crazedrat:

    This could be subtype related, I'm not sure, but I've been thinking there is a similarity between the following types:



    ESFp/ISTp
    INTp/ENFp
    ENFj/ISFj
    ISTj/ENTj
    ESFj/INFj
    INTj/ESTj
    ENTp/INFp
    ISFp/ESTp

    In the first pair, there is a 'transparent' S as Base, but the ESFp's Fi/Te and the ISTp's Te/Fi make them appear to be similar in temperament or probably even thinking patterns.

    Not to pad my own theory, but it's interesting because some members here show faint reason to believe it. Woofwoofl holds himself to be dualtype SEE-SLI; Traveler was once confused between INTp and ENFp, FDG and Ashton are typed SLE by some, Marista has been mixed by others with EFxj and IxFj etc. Labcoat for INTj/ESTj.

    Thoughts?
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    Awesome each and every one of those pairs are next to each other in the Taciturn/Narrator cycles, which I think about a ton, and it's cool to see you come to that general place too...

    As far as SEE-SLI for me is concerned? When I put that there, I was absolutely surrounded by Deltas, and it was important for me to pay attention to things moreso than usual, in the music I made, in the way I carried myself, in the things I talked about, etc.; when I'm around Betas, something else happens entirely with me from time to time, it involves a lot of , and I expect it to be me doing things temporarily as an IEI would.

    I've felt myself being pulled in two irreconcilably different directions when around an IEI and an EII; I was unable to be two places at once, so to speak, but I tried my damnedest... felt like some sort of traffic cop, getting that conversation to work properly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Awesome each and every one of those pairs are next to each other in the Taciturn/Narrator cycles, which I think about a ton, and it's cool to see you come to that general place too...
    Yeah, I'm aware of them. Though I'm not so sure of similarities within the whole of each cycle. I mean, it does makes sense that Semi-duals would be equally similar as Mirages are(what this thread is about - Mirage pairs), the OP at the moment is just more apparent to me.


    So yeah, possibly T/N cycles related, as this thread is compatible with some of it.

    As far as SEE-SLI for me is concerned? When I put that there, I was absolutely surrounded by Deltas, and it was important for me to pay attention to things moreso than usual, in the music I made, in the way I carried myself, in the things I talked about, etc.; when I'm around Betas, something else happens entirely with me from time to time, it involves a lot of , and I expect it to be me doing things temporarily as an IEI would.

    I've felt myself being pulled in two irreconcilably different directions when around an IEI and an EII; I was unable to be two places at once, so to speak, but I tried my damnedest... felt like some sort of traffic cop, getting that conversation to work properly...
    Alright, so you arrived there from a different path. I'm not sure if it changes anything.

    I've been wondering if subtype could be found through compatibility among neighboring Quadras, but then you'd be comparing Base/DS psyche strength against Cre/HA psyche strength.
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    The biggest thing I noticed was LIIs going "EIE" temporarily, and so far, the subtype distribution is pretty even as far as I know...

    All of this is pointing to me that Rational/Irrational is a very important and strong dichotomy; from what I've seen, that line is never hopped...

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    The biggest thing I noticed was LIIs going "EIE" temporarily, and so far, the subtype distribution is pretty even as far as I know...

    All of this is pointing to me that Rational/Irrational is a very important and strong dichotomy; from what I've seen, that line is never hopped...
    Well, Irrational/Rational is pretty much different from the other dichotomies. It's like a container or something.

    All: Fe, Te, Ne, Se, Fi, Ti, Ni, Si

    Rational: Fe, Te, Fi, Ti; Irrational: Ne, Se, Ni, Si (j/p)
    Dynamic: Fe, Te, Ni, Si; Static: Ne, Se, Fi, Ti (Je+Pi/Ji+Pe)
    Extraverted: Fe, Te, Ne, Se; Introverted: Fi, Ti, Ni, Si (E/I)
    Sensing: Si, Se; Intuiting: Ni, Ne (S/N)
    Thinking: Ti, Te; Feeling: Fi, Fe (T/F)

    If you pay attention to what's going on, Rational/Irrational are not orientations but raw states of functions. It's possible to say Dynamic Logic, or Static Logic(Te/Ti); Introverted Logic or Extraverted Logic; but you can't do that for Irrational/Rational. S/N & F/T are in their own class too. I think for this reason MBTI has its problems today, concerning J/P.


    As for EIE-like LIIs, I'm not sure I've witnessed any.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    The biggest thing I noticed was LIIs going "EIE" temporarily, and so far, the subtype distribution is pretty even as far as I know...

    All of this is pointing to me that Rational/Irrational is a very important and strong dichotomy; from what I've seen, that line is never hopped...
    I don't know how you could say this, I've never seen two different types integrating/disintegrating into another type. Sure people pick up different behaviors due to environment, but each type has its own struggles and motivations.
    Rational/Irrational though overlap quite easily. If you read Jung at all, he describes the extroverted rationals as quite irrational and others can see the irrational functions in them very well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    The biggest thing I noticed was LIIs going "EIE" temporarily, and so far, the subtype distribution is pretty even as far as I know...

    All of this is pointing to me that Rational/Irrational is a very important and strong dichotomy; from what I've seen, that line is never hopped...
    I don't know how you could say this, I've never seen two different types integrating/disintegrating into another type. Sure people pick up different behaviors due to environment, but each type has its own struggles and motivations.
    Rational/Irrational though overlap quite easily. If you read Jung at all, he describes the extroverted rationals as quite irrational and others can see the irrational functions in them very well.
    On here, I've seen tcaud and labcoat occasionally go into a sort of "Beta NF crusade" mode that brought to mind Gilly when he's on a righteous cause kinda thing; a very / oriented thing, Negativist, and the is blatant...

    IEI and SEE is another one; goings on here aside, a good look at the lyric sheets in just about any 90s Pantera album nails that one down for me...

    What are some good instances of the line between Rational and Irrational being hopped? I should be able to see that one happening; there's some Delta STs out there I'm not too solid on yet, and I wonder if that may be why...

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Thoughts?
    what are you suggesting exactly?

    that mirage types can be similar to each other and get also mis-typed as one another I agree - they share rational/irrational orientations, their base function is of the same domain so to say (both will be N-doms, or F-doms, etc.), creative/mobilizing area is similar, both extravert same element in that area

    in addition the leading element of mirage type is the other type's ignoring function, thus the person is not very responsive to information of this kind which makes it difficult to tell whether it is one of their valued or unvalued elements

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Thoughts?
    what are you suggesting exactly?

    that mirage types can be similar to each other and get also mis-typed as one another I agree - they share rational/irrational orientations, their base function is of the same domain so to say (both will be N-doms, or F-doms, etc.), creative/mobilizing area is similar, both extravert same element in that area

    in addition the leading element of mirage type is the other type's ignoring function, thus the person is not very responsive to information of this kind which makes it difficult to tell whether it is one of their valued or unvalued elements
    Yea. Maybe it's not such a significant similarity, but I do notice something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I have for a long time believed MensSuperMateriam to be an LII-Ne type.

    ...

    I have decided that it may be the case that a wildcard suggestion is ESTJ, Te-Si.
    INTj/ESTj?
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    While this discussion is certainly interesting and mentally stimulating, chances are we are over-analyzing the details and looking for patterns that either have little new significance or just aren't there. What do you suppose could be the implications of this new pattern, if say we manage to establish it?

    I suppose though, it seems that we tend to confuse ourselves with the creative functions of our unconscious side because they are 1) producing functions instead of accepting functions 2) fluctuating in strength hence likely to draw attention (due to the fact that they reside in our unconscious).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
    While this discussion is certainly interesting and mentally stimulating, chances are we are over-analyzing the details and looking for patterns that either have little new significance or just aren't there. What do you suppose could be the implications of this new pattern, if say we manage to establish it?

    I suppose though, it seems that we tend to confuse ourselves with the creative functions of our unconscious side because they are 1) producing functions instead of accepting functions 2) fluctuating in strength hence likely to draw attention (due to the fact that they reside in our unconscious).
    I'm not saying I've made some wild new discovery. I was just explaining some temperamental similarities I thought the types had and thus probably caused some confusion in typing and observations. Your second paragraph is compatible with my OP/what I think.

    Although, I suppose types are similar in other ways, so I'm not sure where to rank this theory in importance. I guess, for example, that if ESTp and ESTj couldn't be distinguished, what you could do is compare the person with the respective Mirage types. 'Does this person fit ESTp/ISFp or ESTj/INTj more? Is this person more xxSp or more xxTj?' That should make it clear where the person falls.
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    Update:

    I think this is another way to describe the OP with regards to Hidden Agenda, and also the difference between Accepting/Producing subtypes. It does make typing a little more difficult because it increases type flexibility, but if you understand it, then you can account for types' oscillations and therefore be able to type more accurately.

    ESFj, ENTp → Alpha NF Humanitarianism(Ne, Fe)
    INTj, ISFp → Alpha ST Pragmatism(Si, Ti)

    ENFj, ESTp → Beta SF Social-ism(Se, Fe)
    ISTj, INFp → Beta NT Intellectualism(Ni, Ti)

    ENTj, ESFp → Gamma ST Pragmatism(Se, Te)
    ISFj, INTp → Gamma NF Humanitarism(Ni, Fi)

    ESTj, ENFp → Delta NT Intellectualism(Te, Ne)
    INFj, ISTp → Delta SF Social-ism(Fi, Si)

    The new Clubs are interpretive much like the original ones. The point they serve to make is that again, if you are confused between two types, say ESTp/ESTj, then look at their Base-Ha club. ESTp is SF club of SeFe; ESTj is NT club of TeNe; from interpretation, ESTp would be the more socially demonstrative/connecting and loose like Alpha socializing, outside of Beta pragmatism, whereas ESTj would fluctuate more to areas of research and intellect like Gamma, outside of Delta pragmatism.
    Last edited by EyeSeeCold; 09-05-2011 at 01:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    .
    Perhaps you might understand if you actually tried to use that waste of space inside your head called a 'brain'. Your spam posting is not helpful to constructive argumentation or explanation to serve the cause of inducing understanding in yourself.

    If you really cared, which I already know you don't, of course, the meaning is clear if you look at function association. It doesn't take a genius to derive interpretation from groupings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Update:

    I think this is another way to describe the OP with regards to Hidden Agenda, and also the difference between Accepting/Producing subtypes. It does make typing a little more difficult because it increases type flexibility, but if you understand it, then you can account for types' oscillations and therefore be able to type more accurately.

    ESFj, ENTp → Alpha NF Humanitarianism(Ne, Fe)
    INTj, ISFp → Alpha ST Pragmatism(Si, Ti)

    ENFj, ESTp → Beta SF Social-ism(Se, Fe)
    ISTj, INFp → Beta NT Intellectualism(Ni, Ti)

    ENTj, ESFp → Gamma ST Pragmatism(Se, Te)
    ISFj, INTp → Gamma NF Humanitarism(Ni, Fi)

    ESTj, ENFp → Delta NT Intellectualism(Te, Ne)
    INFj, ISTp → Delta SF Social-ism(Fi, Si)

    The new Clubs are interpretive much like the original ones. The point they serve to make is that again, if you are confused between two types, say ESTp/ESTj, then look at their Base-Ha club. ESTp is SF club of SeFe; ESTj is NT club of TeNe; from interpretation, ESTp would be the more socially demonstrative/connecting and loose like Alpha socializing, outside of Beta pragmatism, whereas ESTj would fluctuate more to areas of research and intellect like Gamma, outside of Delta pragmatism.
    This sounds very interesting, it's basically elaborating on abilities of types that are usually not discussed often in Socionics. It inherently looking deeper into the types and their shadow abilities so to speak. However in my opinion, why not put it so you have the Delta NFs together and Delta STs together. Since the Delta NFs both have the same prominent value () + hidden value () combination of Delta NT intellectualism and the Delta STs have the same prominent value: () + hidden value () combination of Delta ST social-ism and this would apply to all the other quadras and their types. I like the idea, I just thought it would be better arranged as dominant or creative function (prominent value) + hidden agenda or dual seeking function (hidden value) as opposed to having it arranged as dominant function plus hidden agenda.
    Last edited by Raver; 09-05-2011 at 01:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post

    This sounds very interesting, it's basically elaborating on abilities of types that are usually not discussed often in Socionics. It inherently looking deeper into the types and their shadow abilities so to speak. However in my opinion, why not put it so you have the Delta NFs together and Delta STs together. Since the Delta NFs both have the same prominent value () + hidden value () combination of Delta NT intellectualism and the Delta STs have the same prominent value: () + hidden value () combination of Delta ST social-ism and this would apply to all the other quadras and their types. I like the idea, I just thought it would be better arranged as dominant or creative function (prominent) + hidden agenda or dual seeking function (hidden) as opposed to have it arranged as dominant function plus hidden agenda.
    Yeah, you're right. I didn't intend to limit the theory that way, Creative-DS just did not strike me as a likely association, considering the DS is 'most suppressed'. Maybe it can be done, looking at Base-HA/Creative-DS, in terms of shadow abilities/temperaments. The bigger picture here though is not specifically what clubs the types might look like, but what flavor of clubs the Quadras include. So Delta oscillates between TeNe Intellectualism, TeSi Pragmatism, FiSi Social-ism and FiNe Humanitarianism. If your suspect does not fit into any of those, then it's probably not Delta.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post

    This sounds very interesting, it's basically elaborating on abilities of types that are usually not discussed often in Socionics. It inherently looking deeper into the types and their shadow abilities so to speak. However in my opinion, why not put it so you have the Delta NFs together and Delta STs together. Since the Delta NFs both have the same prominent value () + hidden value () combination of Delta NT intellectualism and the Delta STs have the same prominent value: () + hidden value () combination of Delta ST social-ism and this would apply to all the other quadras and their types. I like the idea, I just thought it would be better arranged as dominant or creative function (prominent) + hidden agenda or dual seeking function (hidden) as opposed to have it arranged as dominant function plus hidden agenda.
    Yeah, you're right. I didn't intend to limit the theory that way, Creative-DS just did not strike me as a likely association, considering the DS is 'most suppressed'. Maybe it can be done, looking at Base-HA/Creative-DS, in terms of shadow abilities/temperaments. The bigger picture here though is not specifically what clubs the types might look like, but what flavor of clubs the Quadras include. So Delta oscillates between TeNe Intellectualism, TeSi Pragmatism, FiSi Social-ism and FiNe Humanitarianism. If your suspect does not fit into any of those, then it's probably not Delta.
    I agree, anyways I think your idea does fill in some rather notable holes in Socionics theory rather well. Good job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Update:

    I think this is another way to describe the OP with regards to Hidden Agenda, and also the difference between Accepting/Producing subtypes. It does make typing a little more difficult because it increases type flexibility, but if you understand it, then you can account for types' oscillations and therefore be able to type more accurately.

    ESFj, ENTp → Alpha NF Humanitarianism(Ne, Fe)
    INTj, ISFp → Alpha ST Pragmatism(Si, Ti)

    ENFj, ESTp → Beta SF Social-ism(Se, Fe)
    ISTj, INFp → Beta NT Intellectualism(Ni, Ti)

    ENTj, ESFp → Gamma ST Pragmatism(Se, Te)
    ISFj, INTp → Gamma NF Humanitarism(Ni, Fi)

    ESTj, ENFp → Delta NT Intellectualism(Te, Ne)
    INFj, ISTp → Delta SF Social-ism(Fi, Si)

    The new Clubs are interpretive much like the original ones. The point they serve to make is that again, if you are confused between two types, say ESTp/ESTj, then look at their Base-Ha club. ESTp is SF club of SeFe; ESTj is NT club of TeNe; from interpretation, ESTp would be the more socially demonstrative/connecting and loose like Alpha socializing, outside of Beta pragmatism, whereas ESTj would fluctuate more to areas of research and intellect like Gamma, outside of Delta pragmatism.
    Didn't labocat do something like this? I remember he created some secondary club-like division based on dichotomies which put ILI in the NF group, anyway. It was related to limiting/empowering (aka focal/diffuse) functions or something; I remembered it as corresponding to supervisor's club so if that was a correct association you seem to have identical club-like groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post

    Didn't labocat do something like this? I remember he created some secondary club-like division based on dichotomies which put ILI in the NF group, anyway. It was related to limiting/empowering (aka focal/diffuse) functions or something; I remembered it as corresponding to supervisor's club so if that was a correct association you seem to have identical club-like groups.
    I haven't seen anything that suggests something similar, though I've been through his focal/diffuse material. You have a link? Or I could ask him.
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    These are not exactly in the direction I was going but they kind of give you an idea of what the associations mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    ESFj, ENTp → Alpha NF Humanitarianism(Ne, Fe)

    Ethics of emotions /E/ + the intuition of possibilities /I/ - good combination for the propaganda of new ideas, persuasion of people with the decision, connected with the alternatives or the new uncommon possibilities of output from the complex situation. It adapts as the method of training and development of abilities in children with different complexes (uncertainty in itself and its abilities).

    INTj, ISFp → Alpha ST Pragmatism(Si, Ti)

    [Sensorika] of aesthetics /S/ + the logician of relationships /L/ - this combination is necessary for organizing of rational labor and rest in the clear sequence, for the logical and aesthetical formulation of orders, procedures and other works. It adapts for the creation of the statistics of the obtained information, reasonable and sequential solution of the problems of ecology.

    ENFj, ESTp → Beta SF Social-ism(Se, Fe)

    Ethics of emotions /E/ + strong-willed [sensorika] /F/ - combination for the emotional action on the people in the extreme situations for the purpose of raising their working enthusiasm for overcoming the difficulties. This symbiosis is good for the victory above the opponent in the dispute, since it is capable to psychologically choke enemy, to interest in anything, to impose its point of sight and line of behavior, to disorient or to orient to the specific purpose.

    ISTj, INFp → Beta NT Intellectualism(Ni, Ti)

    Logician of relationships /L/ + the intuition of time /T/ - combination for the promising development of organizational structures in the spirit of the age and taking into account further plans of development, and also for the legislative purposes in the unstable time, with the variable ambient conditions. This can contribute to the stabilization of position and to the elimination of the contradictions as a result of their objective analysis and scientific correction.

    ENTj, ESFp → Gamma ST Pragmatism(Se, Te)

    Strong-willed [sensorika] /F/ + business of logician /P/ - this dyad gives the ability to its participants to mobilize well in the extreme situations for fulfilling of repair work, overcoming of the consequences of emergency, or when it is necessary, for example, anything to explode.

    ISFj, INTp → Gamma NF Humanitarism(Ni, Fi)

    The ethics of relations /R/ + the intuition of time /T/ - is a good combination for creating of the lasting relations, solid associations. It serves for the harmonization of relations in the creative associations, for the charitable actions, the comfort of patients, care for the aged, for stress relieving in neurotic with the aid of hypnosis, [autotrenninga] and the like.

    ESTj, ENFp → Delta NT Intellectualism(Te, Ne)

    Business of logician /P/ + the intuition of possibilities /I/ - not bad combination for creating of innovations, different new technologies, technical inventions, repair work.

    INFj, ISTp → Delta SF Social-ism(Fi, Si)

    The ethics of relations /R/ + [sensorika] of sensations /S/ - this combination is necessary in the situations, when are arranged diplomatic receptions, for creating the atmosphere of leisure in the sanatoriums, hospitals and the like, when it is necessary to manifest the intensive concern about the people.
    Found at:
    http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10...11-22-05-26-00
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    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    The biggest thing I noticed was LIIs going "EIE" temporarily, and so far, the subtype distribution is pretty even as far as I know...
    Hey, I think you were right all along, as for subtypes. I have LII at EIE & LSE, but because of inconclusive evidence I have to leave it at: LII-BetaNF, LII-DeltaST.
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    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
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