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Thread: Social defeat: one cause of introverted extratims

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    Default Social defeat: one cause of introverted extratims

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_defeat

    Scroll down to "effect on humans". It's a very interesting read and should induce some healthy doubt about whether social extraversion has anything at all to do with socionics extraversion.

    Other factors of interest to me are genetics as well, especially anxiety and overarousal. The way introverts distribute physical resources in the brain is also of interest to me, and possibly has relationships with anxiety and hypervigilance.
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    What type of defeat would you attribute to causing Extroverted Introtims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat King Cole View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_defeat

    Scroll down to "effect on humans". It's a very interesting read and should induce some healthy doubt about whether social extraversion has anything at all to do with socionics extraversion.

    Other factors of interest to me are genetics as well, especially anxiety and overarousal. The way introverts distribute physical resources in the brain is also of interest to me, and possibly has relationships with anxiety and hypervigilance.
    Makes sense, I always thought it was social anxiety that was a main factor in creating Introverted Extratims, but social defeat makes even more sense as it causes not only social anxiety, but a host of other psychological problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    What type of defeat would you attribute to causing Extroverted Introtims?
    I imagine consistent social success could cause Extroverted Introtims.
    Last edited by Raver; 08-17-2011 at 04:58 AM.
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    That's weird. I never knew being "An outgoing, overtly expressive person." was inherently better than being "A shy, reticent, and typically self-centered person."
    Or are there more bizarre definitions of classical extroversion/introversion floating about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    That's weird. I never knew being "An outgoing, overtly expressive person." was inherently better than being "A shy, reticent, and typically self-centered person."
    Or are there more bizarre definitions of classical extroversion/introversion floating about?
    It depends, if someone is introverted because they are pensive and analytical as opposed to someone being introverted as a result of fear and anxiety, that's two different things. The former obviously not being a positive form of introversion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    I imagine consistent social success could cause Extroverted Introtims.
    Or at the very least innately extraverted people who remain popular throughout school/their career don't become "introverted" or "shy".

    I think innate extraverts can be "beaten down" by social defeat into being shy. This raises a slight addendum I wish to make:

    Better than "introverted" is "shy". A genuine introvert is just inherently not a people person, and sees no reason more than not not to talk to people. A shy person cannot approach others out of fear, and may be introverted, extraverted, or somewhere in the middle.

    --

    My fresh conclusion is that we need to consider a third scale on top of e-/i-tim and e-/i-version: shyness versus confidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat King Cole View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    I imagine consistent social success could cause Extroverted Introtims.
    Or at the very least innately extraverted people who remain popular throughout school/their career don't become "introverted" or "shy".

    I think innate extraverts can be "beaten down" by social defeat into being shy. This raises a slight addendum I wish to make:

    Better than "introverted" is "shy". A genuine introvert is just inherently not a people person, and sees no reason more than not not to talk to people. A shy person cannot approach others out of fear, and may be introverted, extraverted, or somewhere in the middle.

    --

    My fresh conclusion is that we need to consider a third scale on top of e-/i-tim and e-/i-version: shyness versus confidence.
    I agree, I just made the same conclusion above. Also, I'd like to note that social defeat isn't necessarily permanent. I find social defeat can be reversed through some techniques, but it takes time and patience. I like the idea of a third scale as it could be implemented almost like a subtype. However, one most also note that no one is 100% shy or 100% confident as it is relative and also depends on the people they are dealing with and the situation they are in.
    Last edited by Raver; 08-17-2011 at 06:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat King Cole View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_defeat

    Scroll down to "effect on humans". It's a very interesting read and should induce some healthy doubt about whether social extraversion has anything at all to do with socionics extraversion.

    Other factors of interest to me are genetics as well, especially anxiety and overarousal. The way introverts distribute physical resources in the brain is also of interest to me, and possibly has relationships with anxiety and hypervigilance.
    That's interesting. I think I've witnessed a minor case of work-related social defeat. I don't want to go into the details, but lets just say I wanted to shout to him, "damnit, stop working here and find a place that has a culture that's more suitable to you!"

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    I think liberal extroverts tend to be more shy than conservative extroverts, because the conservatives will bully.

    Also, people who work in engineering tend to think about engineering, not what that other person was wearing that morning.

    Overall I think introverted extroversion is a misnomer: Einstein is the kind of person we usually think of as an "introverted extrovert", but the fact is he had constant company. It wasn't for nothing that he married so young.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I think liberal extroverts tend to be more shy than conservative extroverts, because the conservatives will bully.
    Nah, there're numerous studies that show people with more liberal social attitudes are more intelligent as a whole than people with conservative social attitudes. Also, intelligent people are generally more introspective and less abrasive without due cause. That is something to keep in mind regarding the bullying though. Meaning if you find yourself being bullied, you'll want to fight fire with fire so to speak.

    Also, people who work in engineering tend to think about engineering, not what that other person was wearing that morning.
    Yeah, what kind of an engineer actually cares about what other people are wearing? Within reason, of course.

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    Engineers are interested in engineering. If they can't find someone to talk engineering with, they won't talk at all, and will looking for something to work on. F EM extroverts, on the other hand, never shut up and are rarely alone.

    It seems that T vs F is the dichotomy separating "introvert" from "extrovert" on the EM side, not I vs E as one might think. An extrovert child who has T EM and lives a sheltered existence far from other children will likely become accustomed to living alone. (a lot of them own cats!)

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    Social defeat can happen if your life experiences are so unusual that nobody on the entire planet can understand them. Everything that matters, everything you would want to talk about, is taboo, to almost everyone. That describes my life.

    In my case it results in an extremely introverted introtim who can only communicate over the net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico1e View Post
    Social defeat can happen if your life experiences are so unusual that nobody on the entire planet can understand them. Everything that matters, everything you would want to talk about, is taboo, to almost everyone. That describes my life.
    What you've said here, nico1e, is one of the reasons why I'm so open about my own experiences. While normal people can talk of their pasts, their school experiences, their young adult experiences, their jobs, their hopes for their futures, etc...I can't join in those convers very well, at least not without the "unusual" experiences being included. Which, of course, scares them off, mostly I think, because they can't relate.

    Yet, quite often, when some things get mentioned, someone else will pull me aside later and thank me for talking about it, because they were finally able to relate to something in the discussion. Or know someone who would have, and now this person understands them a little better.

    So while many people might interpret it as me talking about it cuz I'm angsty, or looking for attention, or seeking sympathy, or whatever. I view it as, hey, just as this girl barely missed being prom queen, or this guy worked on rebuilding a car with his father...just as those things influenced who/what they are today...so too did my own experiences....and so too did your own. Those "unusual" experiences matter just as much.

    I believe in learning from experiences...ours and others. I think it a shame that many of those experiences are hidden away due to fear of not 'fitting in'. Especially since many of those experiences aren't all that "unusual"/rare.
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    Social extroversion is not a necessary consequence of Extroversion. To my mind, it is more likely for an Extratim with a high focus on non-social matters (work, study, exploration, philosophy) to end-up with underdeveloped social skills than an Introtim.
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    If this is indeed what's happened to me, I doubt I'll ever go back to that. The doors shut on that. Being sociable always felt unnatural and I always ended up feeling awful afterwards. It's a joke. You're just laughing and saying words that are better off not even being said, listening and pretending to be engaged with things you don't give a shit about. I'm barely even a person in those situations, just malleable and forgettable. Nothing real ever gets communicated, if you can even say there's anything there to begin with, which there really isn't. I'm dull as a rock, have an insistently conceited disposition despite being painful regular in practically every facet of life (talentless, unaccomplished, not an especially nice person, etc.), self-conscious, incapable of loosening up, bitter, a downer, there's nothing worth sharing here. People just feel sorry for you.

    You exert so much effort (even if it doesn't look that way) just to get along with people who don't give two shits when you disappear for months. What's the good in that? Why the fuck should I get out of my 'comfort zone'? What did I gain from any of that?
    Last edited by suedehead; 04-28-2014 at 08:09 PM.

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    I'm not usually brash but if you think social/colloquial extroversion/introversion is the same thing as socionics extroversion/introversion you dumb, need to do more reading, or both.

    But mostly the former.
    Last edited by JWC3; 04-29-2014 at 02:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    If this is indeed what's happened to me, I doubt I'll ever go back to that. The doors shut on that. Being sociable always felt unnatural and I always ended up feeling awful afterwards. It's a joke. You're just laughing and saying words that are better off not even being said, listening and pretending to be engaged with things you don't give a shit about. I'm barely even a person in those situations, just malleable and forgettable. Nothing real ever gets communicated, if you can even say there's anything there to begin with, which there really isn't. I'm dull as a rock, have an insistently conceited disposition despite being incredibly regular in practically every facet, self-conscious, incapable of loosening up, bitter, a downer, there's nothing worth sharing here. People just feel sorry for you. I could just be surrounded by too many Alphas, but that's beside the point.

    You exert so much effort (even if it doesn't look that way) just to get along with people who don't give two shits when you disappear for months. What's the good in that? Why the fuck should I get out of my 'comfort zone'? Or in other words, 'correct' this?
    lol, i relate to this so fucking much. recently since my bff got divorced and ive been going out again i think its been good for me to be less insular. but that only involves going out with somebody i actually know really well and peripherally interacting with other people...which is different. the fake interaction sucks so hard. i can only stomach it if there is real hope for me that it will lead to something more interesting with that person ("real" hope being the chemistry i feel with them, as opposed to a more theoretical hope i.e. "every stranger is a potential friend!") but i feel really dull too and it takes a very rare kind of chemistry with somebody for me to feel like its worth trying.

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    @Suedehead Timely edit. Here I was about to invite you to break the dull monotony of polit. correctness and spill the bile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    I'm not usually brash but if you think social/colloquial extroversion/introversion is the same thing as socionics extroversion/introversion your dumb, need to do more reading, or both.

    But mostly the former.
    *you're dumb. C'mon buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWholeEnglish View Post
    *you're dumb. C'mon buddy.
    There we go, I fixed it. Good catch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    @Suedehead Timely edit. Here I was about to invite you to break the dull monotony of polit. correctness and spill the bile.
    If you wish. Alphas always seem like these perfect good sports, always willing to flail their arms around, talk about how amazing Anchorman is (or How I Met Your Mother, your pick), and laugh along to some internet meme read off some person's instagram feed during 'sharing time', while I have to be the conceited, needy PoS looming in the background somewhere thinking about his petty problems. Even the quiet Alphas get everyone's support since they're always smiling and willing to put on silly costumes, and thus get a reputation for being 'nice'.
    Last edited by suedehead; 04-29-2014 at 03:55 PM.

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    I happen to see Alpha simplistic merriness as overlying timeless idealism with emotional depth. Granted I haven't had much and taken any opportunity to test IRL whether it is actually easy to slip in to "shit is real" territory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    while I have to be the conceited, needy PoS looming in the background somewhere thinking about his petty problems.
    Since I have trouble thinking what else should or could you be feeling like from that perspective, fair enough. That perspective though is from the point of interpersonal thing they are having and so being outside of person/subject it approaches objectivity. Which is not what you are looking for. Actual personal perspective of any one of those people would be liable to be more accepting/relating/involved one way or another.
    Mine:
    I do not appreciate you smearing whole categories of people by your insecurities and negativity. (IEE, alpha NT in that hierarchy thread, this here)
    I do appreciate the sharing you have done.
    I am aggravated by the above two things likely having a relation, but that is a side note.
    I relate more than I would like to to persona shaking with the fucks I do not give in most topics and rejections of common attitudes. Which is caused by severity and morbidity of perspective, which is caused by ongoing personal issues.
    I relate to the issue being gnawing insecurity and unsatisfaction with yourself.
    I barely understand the particular reason for that insecurity you have. I do not think that talentless person/life without special accomplishments is lacking in value and is not worthwhile. Do you?

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