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    Default Rationality.

    Let me hear about it.

    The rationalist state is one that I've found interesting because I don't experience it often. In short, what is it like? What does it feel like when you are in rational mode?

    Irrationality to me is basically like floating along without any sense of time, duty, or obligation, and basically having things go on in your head in slow motion. I lose track of what I "should" be doing, and find myself bouncing around in a way that's unpredictable to most other people. Sometimes they don't understand what I'm doing or why I'm here... there... wait, back over there... and then *whoos* I'm gone again. I often have comments that are out of place, which leads other people to wonder whether or not I am crazy, but at the same time they find it funny (which in familar settings has lead the attention to be swayed back my way even though I don't usually consciously make that a goal, or people weren't paying attention to me in the first place). I admit that the last part may just be Irrational Introversion, or possibally just me.

    It seems to me that rationality is basically a state of willful actions which grants someone the power to not lose track of what the say or do. Not that I'm out-of-control, I know exactly what it is I'm doing, it's just that I seem way off pace with everyone else; hence the distinction.
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    http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml

    cross out anything that's listed in the diagnostic criteria for ADD, and irrationality doesn't sound like me at all. The rational things that I relate to particularly well are as follows:

    # attention focused on correct actions and emotions (logic and ethics), which produce certain states of mind and body (intuition and sensing)
    # act according to their expectation of a situation; form an expectation or plan, then act
    # during communication attention is focused on words and speech
    # immediate reactions to words, actions, and emotion
    # internal tension (readiness)
    # straight lines and angles in face and body
    # sharper, brighter emotions as immediate response to others' emotions, actions, and words
    # less moody, but moods last longer
    # often have difficulty relaxing after tasks are over
    # like to discuss their actions, emotions, attachments, and rules of relationship
    # sequential relationship development: “we're dating;” “we're together now;” “we're living together now;” etc.
    # emotional and physical closeness increases or decreases linearly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    # act according to their expectation of a situation; form an expectation or plan, then act
    This sounds like specifically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    a lot of what was listed sound more like N/S and I/E things to me *shrugs*
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    In any case, what I was more looking for was personal experiences living with rationality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I couldn't write for either side, even if I knew 100% for certain if I'm rational or irrational, I'm not a typical version of either.
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    Forget it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml

    cross out anything that's listed in the diagnostic criteria for ADD,
    [/b]
    Read: cross out everything that doesn't fit me


    "One ISFp came to me about how a strong j ISTj woman was "just not cool", because she evaluated their date together - the place, the food, the service, etc etc etc. I continued to explain to him the difference between j and p types (seriously), and he agreed that she was a j"

    This is called being an ISTj ass, not being a j. Seriosuly, evalutating a "date" is totally irrespectful

    Rocky: I kind of have no clue as to how to describe my natural state of being. I'm probably too used to it.
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    UDP, much of the criteria you list of being "rational" can be equated to "having a stick up your ass".
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    UDP, much of the criteria you list of being "rational" can be equated to "having a stick up your ass".
    Oh, I'm sorry.

    I didn't mean to offend you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    UDP, much of the criteria you list of being "rational" can be equated to "having a stick up your ass".
    Oh, I'm sorry.

    I didn't mean to offend you.
    Lol, that wasn't offensive for me! I just think that some things are off-mark. For example the drug dealing thing etc etc maybe, just maybe, the realtionship part was okay
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I just think that some things are off-mark. For example the drug dealing thing etc etc maybe, just maybe, the realtionship part was okay


    .......so, what are you trying to say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I just think that some things are off-mark. For example the drug dealing thing etc etc maybe, just maybe, the realtionship part was okay


    .......so, what are you trying to say?
    That the relationship differences between J and P you listed might be right
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    Oh well... let me assure you, the ISFps relationship with the drug addict was not fabriacted in any way at all. It was really bad.

    That has doesn't necessarily have everything to do with type, though, save for the fact that the ISFp was so very blinded to his so called values.

    If he were more j -- and I know because he told me -- he would have handled things differently.


    End of story, though. Next topic

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    It was more of a diatribe against irrationality than an elucidation of rationality. the drug thing that is...

    i am not sure what to say in regard to this discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    [*]Another example: An ISFp I know would much rather spend money on jewlelry than pay off all of his bills, or get a bigger/better appartment. Irrationals seem ver much into Instant Gratification, sometimes regardless of consequences even.
    I don't know about other people, but this one doesn't sound like me. Maybe it's to do with a poor thinking function.
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    IEI subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml

    cross out anything that's listed in the diagnostic criteria for ADD,
    Read: cross out everything that doesn't fit me
    yeah... I have ADD. There are non-ADD differences between rational and irrational types, too.

    Okay, if this money thing has anything to do with rationality or irrationality, I am definitely a rational type. When we had the movers here to unpack the moving truck, right away they commented on how big and nice the house was. They asked how I could afford this house, being so young. Then they opened up the truck... as they carried in our furniture and appliances, they started to kid about how crappy the stuff was. I said, "That's how I can afford this house... I shop for furniture in my friend's and relative's basements." I refuse to spend money on something like furniture just because it's "pretty" while I'm still renting... or for that matter, any time soon. What a friggin waste of money.
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    Default Rationality

    Just a couple of examples from my life - which can be more related to rationality of ISFJ than in general?. I need to know things now (poor intuiton ), If somebody said the beginning of the sentence - I need to know the end too - that is why I have to be pushy if I want to survive. My room can be a mess at times because I need to concentrate on something first- one thing at a time and it takes time usually (poor intuition and applied logic result in the lack of flexibility and missing on chances ). I think it would be interesting to compare tow levels of functioning ( extraverted -behaviour and introverted - thought process).
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    Default Re: Rationality

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    If somebody said the beginning of the sentence - I need to know the end too - that is why I have to be pushy if I want to survive.
    Makes a lot of sense for an ISFj, but as you suspected, I don't think it's necessarily a rational thing.
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    when i think of rationality i think of the style of particular kinds of writers predating the advent of existentialism. if you want to learn to think rational i would highly recommend their works. a good example would be Summa Theologiae by aquinas or even something like the adventures of sherlock holmes by sir arthur conan doyle. however the mystics (like descartes) though rational should imo be avoided if you seek a fundamental comprehension

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    If that's rationality then I doubt I want to be apart of it. :/ The idea that anything that cannot be explained with reason should be ignored is hogwash to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    you misunderstand me. i agree with your sentiments on Rationality but i am discussing rationality not Rationality :/ the content is meaningless in this scenario. reading the works i am suggesting you read would lead to a rationalistic mindset much like playing a musical instrument would create an Si? Pi? mindset. you can read something and take something of value of it whether or not the content is correct. your mind will be a failure until you learn to juxtapose the temporal value of a given thing so that you can see how your approach to it would vary with the order in which you received the information and/or how it would vary with the reception of partial data rocky

    maybe that would be a good definition for rationality. the ability to shape partials until they exhibit arrangement? fraternity?

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    Default Re: Rationality

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Just a couple of examples from my life - which can be more related to rationality of ISFJ than in general?. I need to know things now (poor intuiton ), If somebody said the beginning of the sentence - I need to know the end too - that is why I have to be pushy if I want to survive. My room can be a mess at times because I need to concentrate on something first- one thing at a time and it takes time usually (poor intuition and applied logic result in the lack of flexibility and missing on chances ). I think it would be interesting to compare tow levels of functioning ( extraverted -behaviour and introverted - thought process).
    This sounds EXACTLY like my ISFj mom, except for the fact that she's a total neat-freak at all times.
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    Default I would assume after having a glass of vine...

    Actually if you would only know how much I perceived as a failure by those who have strong logic mind, either applied logic or abstract logic.
    You would never be able to call me rational in a first place. This is ratinality subordinated to extraverted feelings - very different cup of tee.
    I think they ( I mean at my work) perceive INFPs much more rational than me.
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    I meant introverted feelings....it happens to me quite often - I just do not see things like that and call them...mind games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    [*]Another example: An ISFp I know would much rather spend money on jewlelry than pay off all of his bills, or get a bigger/better appartment. Irrationals seem ver much into Instant Gratification, sometimes regardless of consequences even.
    I don't know about other people, but this one doesn't sound like me. Maybe it's to do with a poor thinking function.
    I'm not like this either, I've seen this type of behaviour mainly with XSFp's.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    For me, I could not even have that many people I consider to "love" in the first place. One person at a time, and only one. I can only ""love"" (deeply, romantically, really) one person at a time.
    I know dominant irrationals that share this value as well. I think it may be an introverted aspect and not a rational one.

    Anyways, to me rationality is described as setting priorities above all other desires or goals. Once the majority of the priorities are set than the secondary goals and desires can be fulfilled. However, there are faults with this because at some instances the priorities may never be completed if they are continuous. This may not be completely accurate becaue if a continuous loop does arise than the rational would obviously break the cycle. Is the following statement accurate? - Extreme irrationality results in the fulfillment of all desires primarily and extreme rationality's product is the fulfillment of all priorities primarily. All other thoughts will be labelled as secondary and repressed until the primary objective is achieved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I meant introverted feelings....it happens to me quite often - I just do not see things like that and call them...mind games.
    What do you call mind games? Introverted feelings, or abstract/applied logic?
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    Default Mind games

    I have got problems in my extraverted functioning due to being deeply introverted and focused on internal feeling-thinking process. My thought process can interfere with whatever I am doing. That means I do certain things in automatic mode or certain things fall out of my attention. That is why when I do mistakes and I realize it - I do not understand how does it happen to me and why - this what I call mind games or problems with applied logic and . - my Superid block.

    I can imagine for other types mind games will be different due to their Superid functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you misunderstand me. i agree with your sentiments on Rationality but i am discussing rationality not Rationality :/ the content is meaningless in this scenario. reading the works i am suggesting you read would lead to a rationalistic mindset much like playing a musical instrument would create an Si? Pi? mindset. you can read something and take something of value of it whether or not the content is correct. your mind will be a failure until you learn to juxtapose the temporal value of a given thing so that you can see how your approach to it would vary with the order in which you received the information and/or how it would vary with the reception of partial data rocky

    maybe that would be a good definition for rationality. the ability to shape partials until they exhibit arrangement? fraternity?
    OK, I see what you mean... but my problems with "Rationality" is that, besides the obvious fact that it is limited, it convinces people to believe such things as bees can't fly, and curveballs can't drop, when we can easily see that these things do exist.

    I would be afraid of anyone distinctly "Rational" or "Irrational" as I would of pure Extraverts/Introverts.
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    "OK, I see what you mean... but my problems with "Rationality" is that, besides the obvious fact that it is limited, it convinces people to believe such things as bees can't fly, and curveballs can't drop, when we can easily see that these things do exist. "

    That's not the product of rationality, but rather stupidity. Big difference.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "OK, I see what you mean... but my problems with "Rationality" is that, besides the obvious fact that it is limited, it convinces people to believe such things as bees can't fly, and curveballs can't drop, when we can easily see that these things do exist. "

    That's not the product of rationality, but rather stupidity. Big difference.
    I guess extremity could possibly linked to suppressed intelligence in some form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "OK, I see what you mean... but my problems with "Rationality" is that, besides the obvious fact that it is limited, it convinces people to believe such things as bees can't fly, and curveballs can't drop, when we can easily see that these things do exist. "

    That's not the product of rationality, but rather stupidity. Big difference.
    But the point is that everything cannot be explained with math/physics. Somethings that work in theory don't always work in reality. The Bernoulli principle was taught as a fact in textbooks, and believed by teachers, because it was something that wanna-bees tried to use in order to explain the movement of a curveball. But they showed the curveball spinning the wrong way.

    If rationality is not an attempt to explain things within a realm of reason, then what is it? I think this is what Pedro was saying when he said that rationality can be used as another angle to understand something, but if taken too far in one direction, can lead to a seperation from reality.
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    "But the point is that everything cannot be explained with math/physics. Somethings that work in theory don't always work in reality. The Bernoulli principle was taught as a fact in textbooks, and believed by teachers, because it was something that wanna-bees tried to use in order to explain the movement of a curveball. But they showed the curveball spinning the wrong way. Sad"

    That's not the fault of rationality but the fault of the theory; in this case, it was the perceptions of the situation that caused the defiiency of the theory, not the fact that it was a theory. So, in a sense, it could be said that it was socionic irrationality that caused the theory's inaccuracies, not socionic rationality.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Fine, this would be impossible to argue. We can always twist things around from a different view point. Even though through my observations I can see that the ball is spinning towards the batter as opposed to towards me. Just like I can see the bee flying even though physics would say that it is impossible for the bee to fly.
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    "Just like I can see the bee flying even though physics would say that it is impossible for the bee to fly. Razz"

    Physicists said it was impossible for a plane the size of a bee to fly---nothing else.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    I would be afraid of anyone distinctly "Rational" or "Irrational" as I would of pure Extraverts/Introverts.
    I am concerned by a world whose "thought energy" is so low as to not allow for the existence of these abberations.

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    Personally I do see a difference. One of the more noticeable ones being the penchant of rationals to aggradize the significance of words that I have observed to be matched only by certain special cases of the Ni dominant types with the faculty being much more frequent in intps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    I would be afraid of anyone distinctly "Rational" or "Irrational" as I would of pure Extraverts/Introverts.
    I am concerned by a world whose "thought energy" is so low as to not allow for the existence of these abberations.
    Well, it's clear that we live in such a place, as I am reminded of it constantly.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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