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Thread: Delta Dating and Relationships

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    moredhel's Avatar
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    Default Delta Dating and Relationships

    Hello again Delta's, time for another intellectual on topic discussion

    What has prompted this is I was asked "how do care givers and infantiles initiate relationships?" There is of course no one answer to this and even in trying to answer it there is going to be a distinct difference between Alpha's and Delta's.

    So after thinking about it I came up with this fun dichotomy system for inner quadra relationships based on my experiences,


    When I refer to development I'm mainly talking the time between initiation and a relationship or some other first milestone (sex maybe), it's deliberately ambiguous to reflect the ambiguous nature of relationships and can also refer speed of finding potential new partners or even the time between meeting someone and being in a position to ask them out.
    When I talk about direct and indirect initiation basically I find deltas and alpha's need to establish mutual interest before proceeding and the process of doing this tends to be indirect (this is less noticeable I find for alphas because mutual interest can be established very quickly or very quickly misinterpreted due to their approachable Fe/Si nature).
    Also I've found initiation for Delta's and Alpha's relies more on gender roles than romance type.

    The concept of initiation can be ambiguous as well, a female aggressor for instance may do all the hard work (body language, presenting opportunities etc.) but expect the male victim to actually take that last step.

    Now that I'm out of equations and tables lets focus on deltas. Deltas get the short straw if you're rating the process of starting relationships by it's simplicity, being both "indirectly" initiated and "slowly" developed. It also makes it harder to detail the behavior around it so I'm not even sure if there are any hard and fast rules or correlations for Delta behavior in this area.

    To give some perspective and a starting point I'll detail some of my experiences.
    I've had 3 serious delta love interests in my life, the 2 high school ones I met through friends, instantly got along with and spent months exchanging emails. The first one asked out by someone else the same day I found out she liked me (haha I was young, the months of emails somehow didn't give it away), the second I was able to initiate by asking her to my ball and after it was painfully obvious how she felt, ask her out properly . (By the way my advise to any shy teenager is a school ball is the best first date you could possibly have...and I'm a delta so I'm insinuating first kiss here ). The third (this one was actually my dual ) I met through her boyfriend, but same deal months of communication excellent friendship, all the same symptoms but a more complicated ending.

    Even with my alpha ex I needed to go through the process of meeting her casually, getting to know her, organize some 1 on 1 "friend dates" and then have thing "spontaneously" develop. My gamma victim ex was the one who came onto me but over the course of a whole night and in a pseudo indirect victim way so I wasn't freaked out by it.

    So basically I've found with delta's I've needed a grow a one on one friendship and almost have dating as an inevitability before initiating it. I'm assuming now it will no longer be to the same extreme (I've been out of "the game" for awhile) as in the past but that's defiantly my ideal initiation scenario.

    So what are some other peoples experiences? How do you like your relationships to start and develop? Is there an easier way to approach a delta ?
    Last edited by moredhel; 08-16-2011 at 10:49 AM.

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    dattebayo's Avatar
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    I've always been one of the guys (I'm a gurl by the way), so I was always able to sort of slide into a relationship

    and even if we both knew we meant business we would still call the "nah, we're just friends" card ha ha don't know why though. Guess it's less official and restricting or something

    not untill it became physical would we admit it

    With my bf, we weren't friends and didn't have the opportunity to become just friends first. We were both very attracted to each other, and I guess we both knew the other one was as well. But this one went paaaaaaaainstaakingly slowwwwwwwwwwwwww

    and indirect as you put it. I dunno what happened but all of a sudden I was a total wuz. Normally I'm pretty brave with these things (if I do say so myself ha ha - and not as much brave as honest )
    n00bIEE

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    I've always been one of the guys (I'm a gurl by the way), so I was always able to sort of slide into a relationship

    and even if we both knew we meant business we would still call the "nah, we're just friends" card ha ha don't know why though. Guess it's less official and restricting or something

    not untill it became physical would we admit it

    With my bf, we weren't friends and didn't have the opportunity to become just friends first. We were both very attracted to each other, and I guess we both knew the other one was as well. But this one went paaaaaaaainstaakingly slowwwwwwwwwwwwww

    and indirect as you put it. I dunno what happened but all of a sudden I was a total wuz. Normally I'm pretty brave with these things (if I do say so myself ha ha - and not as much brave as honest )
    how was it slow? like how did things go in the beginning? what was slow about it?
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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Great thread btw moredhel, thanks for starting the topic!

    In my case, i relate a lot to what you described. Pursuing a romantic interest in my case also always ends up being extremely slow. That is actually why my first dual interaction wasn't able to work out-- we were dualizing and slowly slowly getting to the point of possibly becoming a relationship but i didn't have enough time to develop it, because i had to move away. Very very painful. I'm not going to go into it more here.

    Moving faster makes me stressed, nervous, and phobic. A guy who pushes the timeline any faster is an instant turn off to me.

    I very much relate to the friendship first idea. In fact, in the past when i would go on dates with guys and mention that i want us to be friends, they would take that as a rejection , but I felt that i was trying to develop the relationship! Then I heard about the whole weird concept some guys have about the "friends ladder" vs the "lover ladder" and if you're on the friends ladder that means you have no chance of being on the lover ladder. I had one guy even go so far as to say "I have enough friends, I dont need another one" which I thought was so rude. I mean, here is someone who wants to be your friend, and you refuse the friendship??? i mean that just didn't make any sense to me at all.

    After I moved away from my dual, I tried the online dating site thing for about a year. Went on like 4 dates. Also tried speed dating a couple times. HATED the way those processes made me feel. It made me realize that it's impossible for me to get attracted to someone that way, probably for the reasons you mentioned, moredhel. What it takes, I realized, is me being in someone presence over a decently long period of time, where i can observe their character and behavior, etc, at which point the feelings might start brewing (if i like what i'm seeing).

    How long the period should be really varies depending on how much time we are spending with each other, how intense the situations are and to what degree the situations bring out his character. With the dual guy, I was assigned to work with him on a service where we were in each others' presence for 16-24 hours a day for 3 weeks, dealing with some tough ethical situations at times. And i'd worked with him briefly a few months before so I sort of knew him already. So that happened relatively quickly (maybe took a week or so before the feelings happened). If it's someone I see maybe every few days or every few weeks for an hour or 2 each time, it might take months before I get attracted.

    AFTER the attraction happens, it might take me a long while to get to some sort of culmination. I think part of the reason has been that I'd always approached this sort of thing in a gender roles appropriate way, like you mentioned. I would refuse to make the first move, but then i would wait and wait and wait, and finally when i couldn't wait any longer, I would get the urge to just do something to show my interest. Past the point of no return, or if i knew a guy i liked was moving away soon, I would end up confessing my feelings or something like that. My reasons were more to do justice to the feelings than anything else, so as not to have eternal regrets for not having done everything i can to make sure the feelings weren't mutual.

    Now knowing socionics, and knowing my type, I see that I'm really the one who's supposed to be making the relationship moves. I sort of sensed that about myself in the past with me getting those strong urges to just DO something about it.

    I did recently meet another attractive dual at the gym where I work out, and after a few subtle hints that he might be interested, I cast out some cautious moves. We went from just eyeballing each other about 2 months ago, to having an hour-long conversation a couple weeks ago. And it's not like we see each other every day--there were a few weeks in there where we didn't coincide at all. Which was good, because after every move, I felt like I needed some time on my own to reassess, regroup, and just think about what just happened, and whether i'm still interested in moving forward. Just to give you an idea of how slow this process is for me and how ambivalent i can be, even when i think i am attracted to someone.

    When it comes to IEE + SLI, what I have learned is that the IEEs pretty much HAVE to make the moves, because the SLIs are just totally incapable of it. If the SLIs try, it comes out really clumsy and makes both parties involved really embarrassed and uncomfortable. That did happen with me and the gym SLI, when I lost my courage in initiating contact early on. SHAME on me!!! I fixed it later though...

    Maybe if i'd been more proactive with the prior SLI, things would have progressed faster. With that one, there was also the big issue of professionalism that was heavily restraining me. I didn't feel like I could make ANY moves in a romantic sense until i was done working there, but that also was when i had to move away. I also missed some choice opportunities to put some strong relationship stakes in the ground because of, like dattebayo mentioned, wussiness. Which does come over me as well with a guy i'm attracted to.
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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Now that I'm out of equations and tables lets focus on deltas. Deltas get the short straw if you're rating the process of starting relationships by it's simplicity, being both "indirectly" initiated and "slowly" developed. It also makes it harder to detail the behavior around it so I'm not even sure if there are any hard and fast rules or correlations for Delta behavior in this area.

    The rules for INFj's would be to approach them slowly and give them space and time to get comfortable with you. However, and usually, they know who they are attracted to rather quickly; when this happens, they will look you up and down and walk around you a few times to make sure you notice them, not noticing that you have great vision and have already seen them. Because we have Se PoLR, we can't tell if others have seen us (poor sensory perception). I've tried to make myself WAY too noticeable to LSE before and kept having to remind myself that they already noticed me. By noticeable, I mean in very subtle ways, like walking around them and looking at them, or trying to make eye contact. I really want them to just look, directly at me, to give me the sense of unambiguity, which LSE sometimes don't do, because they are too busy. Look and smile at us sometimes, in a very subtle way as to not scare us off. Also, my boyfriend tells me that he goes to a coffee shop to have coffee or to read/write. He's not there to pick up on women; see duals with opposite purposes miss each other.

    Then in an actual courting situation, I appreciated my boyfriend's "hands off" policy on our first date. If I like you, I'll touch you gently, on your arm and let you know that I want your attention. I'll never touch a man, or will refrain from hugging them, if I don't like them. I become externally cold to intruding objects/people, so if you lean in to hug an INFj and she hesitates, she probably doesn't want you to hug her.

    Do activities with us where you can talk to us; my dates with my boyfriend (I guess it's a delta Fi/Te thing too, to talk about our relationships) and I were usually long ones, all day, where most of it would be conversations (albeit he did most of the talking and I did the listening, because he is the Extravert of us).

    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    So basically I've found with delta's I've needed a grow a one on one friendship and almost have dating as an inevitability before initiating it. I'm assuming now it will no longer be to the same extreme (I've been out of "the game" for awhile) as in the past but that's defiantly my ideal initiation scenario.

    So what are some other peoples experiences? How do you like your relationships to start and develop? Is there an easier way to approach a delta ?
    ^*Maritsa deletes all the Te parts that are way over her head*

    On to the meat of it, RELATIONSHIPS.

    I want my relationship to start by a traditional way. I would like to be asked out in public places though, at a coffee shop or a museum (although I don't tend to like going to museums by myself). I want to know that the person has some courage and that makes me feel good. Being set up on a date is scary, but ok. Ideally, meeting at a wedding or a family party is awesome.

    My boyfriend wanted everything clear and unambiguous, because he said he liked me a lot and didn't want me to be surprised by anything. He opened up fully and completely. This was surprising and scary, because he was like this sexually too; I tend to be shy and infantile like in sexual matters so it was a jump for me. He was very comfortable and I was like..."um, I have a very skinny body and I'm not so comfortable right away." He made me feel good about that, so that helped. Usually, no kisses on the first date; a hug is appropriate.

    The easy way to approach her is to try these:

    At a coffee shop, stand next to her and start an indirect conversation about the drink she's getting; don't focus on her looks, that makes her feel self conscious and uncomfortable. MAKE HER LAUGH; don't say any sex jokes; just be funny and subtle and sweet; ask if she comes there often and try to go to the same place at the same time more than one time a week; tell her "I come here every Saturday morning", so if she likes you, she'll know where to go and find you Shake her hand, and introduce yourself, and walk away. Don't encroach on her space or jump all over her territory. Take it slow, she knows where you go.

    Keep your routine and if she comes around she wants you and you can start talking to her and going out.

    Or, you can also try talking or remarking on Fi values; for example, you can point out how terrible it is that we're treating the environment or people so poorly in such and such a country. She'll fall in love with you if you do this and if she's an Fi, she may start making the same remarks.

    Or, you can start talking about the importance of such and such health issue and say you've adjusted your diet to exclude milk, as an example, and give her the reasons why and she'll love you.

    Other appropriate places would include:

    Libraries or bookstores, go there every Saturday.
    Shopping malls, EII like to tune out people and go look at things at malls and shopping places.
    Religious centers.
    I hesitate to say work. I don't like mixing the two.

    The above will help a lot.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-11-2011 at 04:35 AM.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Moredhel, SLI tend to do an interesting thing that makes me feel very comfortable. They cross their arms, hang out next to me, look down or away, sway back and forth in a comfortable position with their two legs open so to bring down their height and make it more leveled to my own and smile and talk to me in a comfortable easy going tone. That's a lot of Si, and that makes me feel comfortable right away, so maybe try that.

    But really, you need advice as you move along in this path; I get the general strategy but circumstances can change and you won't be able to evaluate what you should do next until you know how things are going then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    ... likelihood to initiate,

    Male Aggressor > Female Aggressor > Male Victim > Male Caregiver > Female Victim > Male Infantile > Female Caregiver > Female Infantile
    Infantiles initiate alike aggressors. They just do it in a Ne way instead of Se. They start some Ne-banter that the caregivers pick up on, at least from what I've observed. They might not take the first steps but they kind of mentally ignite their dual/activity partners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    I've always been one of the guys (I'm a gurl by the way), so I was always able to sort of slide into a relationship
    Yeah I've actually been the only guy in a large group of girls before and it defiantly makes things easier, funnily enough the only 2 I actively pursued were the only 2 deltas (one probably EII and one IEE) and yeah it does speed up the whole process a bit, still very slow though.

    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    and even if we both knew we meant business we would still call the "nah, we're just friends" card ha ha don't know why though. Guess it's less official and restricting or something

    not untill it became physical would we admit it
    I can relate to that as well, when you're part of the same group it's almost like your in a relationship long before it's official lol unfortunately in my case it didn't get the official stage due to age/inexperience, Deltas probably aren't well equip for early/mid teen romances (just another theory).

    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    With my bf, we weren't friends and didn't have the opportunity to become just friends first. We were both very attracted to each other, and I guess we both knew the other one was as well. But this one went paaaaaaaainstaakingly slowwwwwwwwwwwwww
    lol yes this sounds like the non-group delta relationship dance, it has always been very slow in my experience but very rewarding at the same time. I find that time can often act as a filter so that we rarely end up playing a numbers game.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Great thread btw moredhel, thanks for starting the topic!
    No problems, I had a lot of fun with the other thread I started so I was itching for a new fun and substantial topic to talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    In my case, i relate a lot to what you described. Pursuing a romantic interest in my case also always ends up being extremely slow. That is actually why my first dual interaction wasn't able to work out-- we were dualizing and slowly slowly getting to the point of possibly becoming a relationship but i didn't have enough time to develop it, because i had to move away. Very very painful. I'm not going to go into it more here.
    I know what you mean I feel like I've missed the boat in similar situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Moving faster makes me stressed, nervous, and phobic. A guy who pushes the timeline any faster is an instant turn off to me.
    Hypothetically how would someone need to approach you say at a gym class or some other regular non-social activity where you don't know the person but see them regularly? (Anyone is welcome to answer this question I could use the advise )

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I very much relate to the friendship first idea. In fact, in the past when i would go on dates with guys and mention that i want us to be friends, they would take that as a rejection , but I felt that i was trying to develop the relationship! Then I heard about the whole weird concept some guys have about the "friends ladder" vs the "lover ladder" and if you're on the friends ladder that means you have no chance of being on the lover ladder. I had one guy even go so far as to say "I have enough friends, I dont need another one" which I thought was so rude. I mean, here is someone who wants to be your friend, and you refuse the friendship??? i mean that just didn't make any sense to me at all.
    I've noticed there's a distinct difference between a friendship and this friends first delta pre-relationship concept, the label is the same but it is usually very 1 on 1 with some quite deep exchanges (this may be normal for an ethical type but it's a very noticeable change for a male logical type). It's sad that people have this preconception about how relationships should work, asking girls out at a bar or asking someone you just met out on a date, it's all very foreign to me.
    Yeah refusing friendship is either a weird pride thing or a good sign that he's not a delta.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    After I moved away from my dual, I tried the online dating site thing for about a year. Went on like 4 dates. Also tried speed dating a couple times. HATED the way those processes made me feel. It made me realize that it's impossible for me to get attracted to someone that way, probably for the reasons you mentioned, moredhel. What it takes, I realized, is me being in someone presence over a decently long period of time, where i can observe their character and behavior, etc, at which point the feelings might start brewing (if i like what i'm seeing).
    Yeah it's probably possible to manipulate online dating for delta purposes, find someone and then have a long period of exchanging messages before meeting, but in general the whole idea scares me.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    How long the period should be really varies depending on how much time we are spending with each other, how intense the situations are and to what degree the situations bring out his character. With the dual guy, I was assigned to work with him on a service where we were in each others' presence for 16-24 hours a day for 3 weeks, dealing with some tough ethical situations at times. And i'd worked with him briefly a few months before so I sort of knew him already. So that happened relatively quickly (maybe took a week or so before the feelings happened). If it's someone I see maybe every few days or every few weeks for an hour or 2 each time, it might take months before I get attracted.
    lol yes I totally relate, generally i'm receptive to moves from other people before I'm ready to make one myself but if you talking 2 deltas then it's a slow process.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Now knowing socionics, and knowing my type, I see that I'm really the one who's supposed to be making the relationship moves. I sort of sensed that about myself in the past with me getting those strong urges to just DO something about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    When it comes to IEE + SLI, what I have learned is that the IEEs pretty much HAVE to make the moves, because the SLIs are just totally incapable of it. If the SLIs try, it comes out really clumsy and makes both parties involved really embarrassed and uncomfortable. That did happen with me and the gym SLI, when I lost my courage in initiating contact early on. SHAME on me!!! I fixed it later though...
    Hmm this makes me rethink my equation, it makes sense that the ethical extrovert would be a better initiator than the logical introvert. Get's muddier with LSE and EII but I would say LSE's would be the initiator more often than not. That one may be more subjective to gender roles though, I think a female LSE would have a harder time initiating than a male EII.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I did recently meet another attractive dual at the gym where I work out, and after a few subtle hints that he might be interested, I cast out some cautious moves. We went from just eyeballing each other about 2 months ago, to having an hour-long conversation a couple weeks ago. And it's not like we see each other every day--there were a few weeks in there where we didn't coincide at all. Which was good, because after every move, I felt like I needed some time on my own to reassess, regroup, and just think about what just happened, and whether i'm still interested in moving forward. Just to give you an idea of how slow this process is for me and how ambivalent i can be, even when i think i am attracted to someone.
    Lol i'm having a similar situation at the moment hence the earlier question, it's a group class though so there isn't a whole lot of time for talking beyond some helping with the exercises. I've got a female coworker on a mission to find out if the girl of interest is single and age appropriate, haha I even felt nervous asking that much .

    and now I have to go I'll reply to you a bit later Marista.
    Last edited by moredhel; 08-11-2011 at 12:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    ... likelihood to initiate,

    Male Aggressor > Female Aggressor > Male Victim > Male Caregiver > Female Victim > Male Infantile > Female Caregiver > Female Infantile
    Infantiles initiate alike aggressors. They just do it in a Ne way instead of Se. They start some Ne-banter that the caregivers pick up on, at least from what I've observed. They might not take the first steps but they kind of mentally ignite their dual/activity partners.
    Yes i'm defiantly starting to rethink this, I'll deliberate on it some more and revise my order. Have a feeling I need to introduce quadra as well to get it accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Hypothetically how would someone need to approach you say at a gym class or some other regular non-social activity where you don't the person but see them regularly? (Anyone is welcome to answer this question I could use the advise )


    How? Well, I would be very self conscious and shy in class, yet very focused on trying my best to get whatever exercise done well, and on the other hand really frustrated at myself for any short comings so I would want someone who is supportive, who has my back. Who stands up for me and doesn't let me get too emotional. Someone who is there for me, to help me with my moves but doesn't boss me around. Can "instruct" me, but isn't critical of my efforts. Doesn't butt in and at the same time, is there to emotionally support and comfort me. Lets me analyze why I feel certain things about my moves weren't done a certain way and hears me talk about my thoughts.

    You could try to stand next to me and include me in your "group", if there's a separation of activities. Standing next to me and smiling at me but at the same time, being the quiet and supportive role is very attractive to me. The best movie for the kind of external role I like men to take is in this movie:

    This is all me, with the big glasses and introverted self:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=CyzeUl8yO08
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-11-2011 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    Infantiles initiate alike aggressors. They just do it in a Ne way instead of Se. They start some Ne-banter that the caregivers pick up on, at least from what I've observed. They might not take the first steps but they kind of mentally ignite their dual/activity partners.
    Yes i'm defiantly starting to rethink this, I'll deliberate on it some more and revise my order. Have a feeling I need to introduce quadra as well to get it accurate.
    I think it's related to gender and intratrim/exotrim, not romance styles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Moredhel, this has got me thinking....

    1. We often have dinner together during the week.
    2. You drive me home at stupid hours in the morning to make sure I don't get raped by drunk men on public transport.
    3. We go to the movies and other 'dating' activities.
    4. You talk to me all day at work.
    5. You listen to me whinge and whine about the various idiots in my life and try to give me advice.
    6. You make me breakfast in the morning when I sleep over.
    7. You've threatened to play Matchbox 20 to me....

    ...does this mean you're in the process of courting me?



    Lulz, just teasing you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post

    Yes i'm defiantly starting to rethink this, I'll deliberate on it some more and revise my order. Have a feeling I need to introduce quadra as well to get it accurate.
    I think it's related to gender and intratrim/exotrim, not romance styles.
    Social conditioning(including gender expectations), confidence levels, social & psychological health are more significant than Extravert/Introvert, I believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemoglobin View Post
    Moredhel, this has got me thinking....

    1. We often have dinner together during the week.
    2. You drive me home at stupid hours in the morning to make sure I don't get raped by drunk men on public transport.
    3. We go to the movies and other 'dating' activities.
    4. You talk to me all day at work.
    5. You listen to me whinge and whine about the various idiots in my life and try to give me advice.
    6. You make me breakfast in the morning when I sleep over.
    7. You've threatened to play Matchbox 20 to me....

    ...does this mean you're in the process of courting me?



    Lulz, just teasing you.
    that's me being a good friend, you get special treatment because you are a women and I can talk to you about stuff without it being weird. BTW you are terrible at accepting my caregiver gestures silly aggressor.

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    Yeah yeah, I know I know... I just don't like being molly coddled. You've known me for 5 and a half years, you should know that by now.

    But I'm sure you'll find a nice delta woman that will melt in your arms when you come along and be super helpful and supportive

    ...and I'll be jealous coz she'll be taking you away from me

    Good thread by the way, I like the table....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemoglobin View Post
    Yeah yeah, I know I know... I just don't like being molly coddled. You've known me for 5 and a half years, you should know that by now.

    But I'm sure you'll find a nice delta woman that will melt in your arms when you come along and be super helpful and supportive

    ...and I'll be jealous coz she'll be taking you away from me

    Good thread by the way, I like the table....
    Haha that damn table took me 30 minutes, but I now know how to write tables in BB code, important life skill right there.

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    I initiated all of my relationships with women, the ones that were initiated not by me usually were uninteresting to me. Usually it was quite direct while the speed at which the relationship would develop depended on the other person, how fast can she let me into her world, I'd usually jump head on into the relationship without hesitation. Thing is, I live on a road and I value every moment of my social life, so when I meet someone I don't think about hesitating, I just go for it and see what happens.

    Now give me some male aggressor type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Male Aggressor > Female Aggressor > Male Victim > Male Caregiver > Female Victim > Male Infantile > Female Caregiver > Female Infantile
    What is this bullshit?

    No, Victims are the least likely types to initiate romance, given that 1) they actively enjoy following a dominant presence (aggressors), 2) they lack the sufficient assertiveness to initiate (which is why they need from others), and 3) they're not even altogether too certain of the other person's attraction level (or even, particularly initially, their own). Think, Moredhel: If Aggressors are the most romantically assertive types, how do they complement Victims, if Victims aren't lacking in that department?

    I'll finish up later. I'm getting kicked out.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Male Aggressor > Female Aggressor > Male Victim > Male Caregiver > Female Victim > Male Infantile > Female Caregiver > Female Infantile
    What is this bullshit?

    No, Victims are the least likely types to initiate romance, given that 1) they actively enjoy following a dominant presence (aggressors), 2) they lack the sufficient assertiveness to initiate (which is why they need from others), and 3) they're not even altogether too certain of the other person's attraction level (or even, particularly initially, their own). Think, Moredhel: If Aggressors are the most romantically assertive types, how do they complement Victims, if Victims aren't lacking in that department?

    I'll finish up later. I'm getting kicked out.
    Haha lies victims are very capable of initiating, particularly males, the norm is the aggressor initiates and the victim loves it, but the whole relationship is defined by push and pull and how can this be if the victim isn't capable of pushing or pulling . You also need to consider how they deal with other types and the effect of gender roles, I had a gamma victim initiate with me.
    In my experience a male victim will be better (or at least faster and more direct) at initiating relationships then either caregivers or infintiles. But then quadra's play a part too, alphas are quite successful in that area so ignore my equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall View Post
    I initiated all of my relationships with women, the ones that were initiated not by me usually were uninteresting to me. Usually it was quite direct while the speed at which the relationship would develop depended on the other person, how fast can she let me into her world, I'd usually jump head on into the relationship without hesitation. Thing is, I live on a road and I value every moment of my social life, so when I meet someone I don't think about hesitating, I just go for it and see what happens.

    Now give me some male aggressor type.
    You can be an aggressor if you want but a Male IEE will probably the most confident out of all us deltas particularly while basking in the glory of traveling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall View Post
    I initiated all of my relationships with women, the ones that were initiated not by me usually were uninteresting to me. Usually it was quite direct while the speed at which the relationship would develop depended on the other person, how fast can she let me into her world, I'd usually jump head on into the relationship without hesitation. Thing is, I live on a road and I value every moment of my social life, so when I meet someone I don't think about hesitating, I just go for it and see what happens.

    Now give me some male aggressor type.
    somehow I get the feeling that female SLIs and male IEEs have it easy when it comes to this. I have seen it plenty of times

    the male SLI female IEE relationship is a different story all together though. I always thought I didn't go too much by norms and rules but, but I can't see what else it could be
    n00bIEE

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    just a thought. but itt ppl seem to be looking for love a lot?
    with me I was always busy doing (or thinking of exiting) stuff, and love would happen
    n00bIEE

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    Wow Ssmall... that could have been written by my bf, 'cause that's exactly how he approaches things. He's decisive, direct and persistent. lol
    IEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Haha lies
    I'll refrain from anything harsher given you're Hemo's friend and all, but I'll just say this: That was a tad too condescending. Watch it.

    victims are very capable of initiating, particularly males, the norm is the aggressor initiates and the victim loves it, but the whole relationship is defined by push and pull and how can this be if the victim isn't capable of pushing or pulling . You also need to consider how they deal with other types and the effect of gender roles, I had a gamma victim initiate with me.
    In my experience a male victim will be better (or at least faster and more direct) at initiating relationships then either caregivers or infintiles. But then quadra's play a part too, alphas are quite successful in that area so ignore my equation.
    I've not seen "push and pull" a part of any expert (e.g. classical, well-vetted in the Eastern consensus) Victim or Aggressor descriptions aside from Meged/Ovcharov's SEE-ILI duality one regardless (and indeed, their Beta ones seem much the opposite, EIE-LSI especially), but: 1) more aptly, "chase" rather than "push and pull" in that case. Nowhere are any Victims, the ILI in that description included, described as "pushing or pulling" - that's the Aggressor (the SEE) to the Victim (the ILI), what the ILI is described as doing is being hard to get and bantering back. What can be described as a Victim trait, and this is universal to Victims, is that they're (initially) reticent. In short, you're pulling this out of your ass. 2) I have no way of knowing whether or not you've accurately typed this Gamma NT, citing it benefits you none. 3) Victims have weak Se - so no, they won't use more Se towards other types than those other types do, some Infantiles excepted.

    Note, for example: http://socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/dual-2p.html Not push and pull. http://socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/dual-2j.html Almost the opposite of push and pull.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Labels suck, dating sucks. I never initiated anything when I was dating, I always just randomly fell into relationships and haven't been single since the age of 20 but I like it that way. Every relationship I've been in, I've always assumed the caregiving role...it comes the most natural to me. I love mothering people...so much so it's almost detrimental to my health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall View Post
    I initiated all of my relationships with women, the ones that were initiated not by me usually were uninteresting to me. Usually it was quite direct while the speed at which the relationship would develop depended on the other person, how fast can she let me into her world, I'd usually jump head on into the relationship without hesitation. Thing is, I live on a road and I value every moment of my social life, so when I meet someone I don't think about hesitating, I just go for it and see what happens.

    Now give me some male aggressor type.
    somehow I get the feeling that female SLIs and male IEEs have it easy when it comes to this. I have seen it plenty of times

    the male SLI female IEE relationship is a different story all together though. I always thought I didn't go too much by norms and rules but, but I can't see what else it could be
    That's odd. I assumed gender roles would make it difficult for female SLIs and male IEEs or something.
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    Victim extraverts initiate. Hell, they're EJs. It's even written in the desc.

    Generally extraverts initiate, whatever their romantic orientation is.

    Anyway, I relate to Ssmall's description about initiation, so E-type might play its role too.
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    I don't mind labels. Sometimes I think people are wary of labels because they are against other people seeing through them. But I do want them to be accurate according to real substance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I'll refrain from anything harsher given you're Hemo's friend and all, but I'll just say this: That was a tad too condescending. Watch it.
    Your in delta territory now, consider that before taking offense to friendly disagreement.

    Victims have weak valued Se, most people would use valued functions more than unvalued functions, weak or not, if we consider Se the most prominent function in direct initiation victims would rate 2nd. Anyway for this thread it's not important whether or not victim's initiate, this is delta focused and apart from aggressors I'm starting to come around to the thinking that romance type is not a good way to weight initiation, particular as different types and even just people attempt initiation in different ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Victims have weak valued Se, most people would use valued functions more than unvalued functions, weak or not
    Super-id functions suck arse; which is why we leave them to our duals. Per this rationale Victims would want to initiate, but that does not mean they have the ability to -- particularly in the case of IxIs. And in fact xIEs are a fair bit more assertive than IxIs, but the idea that they're anywhere near as assertive as somebody who's sufficiently confident in Se to use it regularly is... nuts. Seriously, actually bloody read the literature on the subject.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    I think in the case of victims, they might not be assertive about initiating, but when the aggressors initiate, the victims know exactly what to do in return. At least that has been my impression.

    Victims, by definition, have strong Ni, so from what I understand of Ni, they would know exactly where the "aggression" (so to speak) is heading sooner than anyone else, and they respond accordingly. I.e. there is less uncertainty about what is going on and what to do about it in the minds of victims than in the minds of infantiles.

    Of course I could be wrong. This is just my current take on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post

    I can relate to that as well, when you're part of the same group it's almost like your in a relationship long before it's official lol unfortunately in my case it didn't get the official stage due to age/inexperience, Deltas probably aren't well equip for early/mid teen romances (just another theory).
    This rings true for me and my EII sister as well. Neither of us were really equipped at all for dating/relationships as teens. I mean both of us had crushes on guys, but i can't imagine going through all that "adult" drama that I see happening among high school kids in shows and movies (and even some of my own peers), at that age. It also didn't help that our caregiver mom (SEI) enjoyed keeping us in the child stage of life and would be perfectly content having us there forever .

    My sister and I are only just now starting to think about dating. But even then, (and this could be a cultural thing or the way we were raised too, maybe not totally type-related) we date with the prospect of finding a soul mate to possibly get married to, not just for fun and giggles nor just to be in a relationship. We're too independent for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel
    Hypothetically how would someone need to approach you say at a gym class or some other regular non-social activity where you don't know the person but see them regularly? (Anyone is welcome to answer this question I could use the advise )
    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel
    Lol i'm having a similar situation at the moment hence the earlier question, it's a group class though so there isn't a whole lot of time for talking beyond some helping with the exercises. I've got a female coworker on a mission to find out if the girl of interest is single and age appropriate, haha I even felt nervous asking that much .
    lol, this is sort of a difficult question for me to answer in that i'm not totally sure. It's all taken on a case-by-case basis. I think basically along the lines of what we've mentioned so far in this thread, the best approach would just be in a friendly way, as someone looking for friendship. Though, in the back of my mind, a random guy striking up convo with me would make me consider a possibility that he might be interested in more (though what "more" is i wouldn't know), but I would also just see it (trying to be realistic) as someone just wanting to be friends with me. I would say, make conversation every opportunity you get, like small convo or comment every time you see her. Say a joke or two, something indirect, something witty (which if you're LSE and she's delta NF, I'm pretty sure she'll like it--I really love Te-humor ), like as you're standing around waiting for class. Oh also, you could try and be next to her in class as often as you can--I would certainly take notice of that over time, especially if someone is making it a point of being there (I can usually tell). Eventually if she seems interested in talking to you, see if she'd like to grab dinner after class, but just phrase it casually like that, e.g. " hey I (or a friend and I) are going to grab dinner at "x", are you hungry? you're welcome to join us..." If she doesn't accept, dont get discouraged, try it again at some point.

    Oh also eye contact is HUGE for me. In fact, this is how i can initially tell an SLI might be interested--they give me what i like to call "the stare of passion". They just walk by where i am, and out of nowhere just look me straight in the eyes for a lot longer than a normal glance (like maybe 5-6 seconds) with a lot more intensity than their usual gaze, and then walk away. It's HOT!!!! I usually get very flustered when this happens, but it delivers the message, loud and clear. Still though, since the SLIs i've known so far don't follow up on that too well, I end up wondering afterwards whether they really meant it or not, or what that stare really meant in the first place.

    What I'm trying to say is, delta NFs pick up on these subtleties, so the key is you only need to be subtle. Maybe not so subtle to an SLI-degree --a little stronger wouldn't hurt--but coming on TOO strong can be problematic. Be subtle but constant. And patient. So it's actually a great thing that you see her regularly in gym class. That will help a lot!


    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel
    Yeah it's probably possible to manipulate online dating for delta purposes, find someone and then have a long period of exchanging messages before meeting, but in general the whole idea scares me.
    That was my initial approach actually, but turned out to be very disappointing when i finally met them and knew right off the bat they weren't what I was looking for. So after that, I would just email anyone that seemed interesting in the least, to start out by meeting up. Very few guys responded to that, and I find it really hard to generate feelings of attraction/attachment either way. It all feels very contrived and forced, like we're there to see if we want to date each other.

    Hmm this makes me rethink my equation, it makes sense that the ethical extrovert would be a better initiator than the logical introvert. Get's muddier with LSE and EII but I would say LSE's would be the initiator more often than not. That one may be more subjective to gender roles though, I think a female LSE would have a harder time initiating than a male EII.
    I think it really all depends. Theoretically, as far as I remember, the extravert in the dual pair is the one who is best equipped to initiate, but again, even though in my case with the SLI I'm making a lot of the big obvious moves in establishing communication, it still has to be reiterated that the SLI actually made THE first move with the stare. The unique thing (possibly in part due to extraversion) was that I was able to pick up on that and follow suit. An introvert would be too inside themselves to notice something like that, I think.

    If it's an IEE-LSE interaction, i'm not too sure how that would go, i guess either one might initiate in their own special way I can't really say that my way of initiating is all that smooth, tbh. My moves have been pretttty awkward I have to say. I guess the initial stages of love can be awkward in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    ... likelihood to initiate,

    Male Aggressor > Female Aggressor > Male Victim > Male Caregiver > Female Victim > Male Infantile > Female Caregiver > Female Infantile
    Infantiles initiate alike aggressors. They just do it in a Ne way instead of Se. They start some Ne-banter that the caregivers pick up on, at least from what I've observed. They might not take the first steps but they kind of mentally ignite their dual/activity partners.
    Yeah I was going to mention this as well.

    Also this line of the conversation made me think of what has been mentioned on the forum previously regarding each IM being a different kind of "aggressor".

    E.g.
    Se = physical aggressor
    Ne = spiritual aggressor
    Fe = emotional aggressor
    Si = physical caregiver
    Ni = spiritual caregiver
    Fi = emotional caregiver

    And the respective DS functions are the other components (if i remember correctly)
    E.g
    Se-DS = physical victim
    Ne-DS = spiritual victim
    Fe-DS = emotional victim
    Si-DS = physical infantile
    Ni-DS = spiritual infantile
    Fi-DS = emotional infantile


    I forget if I have these right though, can someone post the link? I'll try to find it too. I really liked that way of seeing the IMs, made a lot of sense to me. And I think that comes into play in the way initiation we're discussing here happen. For example, the way I initiate does tend to be sort of spiritually directed, caregiving from an emotional standpoint, nothing physical. The sensor's area is initiating the physical contact, even just touching. IME this rings true, as I am so clumsy and unsure from a physical/motion standpoint, that when i do try to touch someone I like, it just all ends up being really embarrassing and totally goes wrong and falls apart. My point is, every type initiates in some way.
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    I've initiated every relationship I've had.

    I also used to hit on guys from my stroller as a kid, saying, "Hey dude," and I'd lick my finger and do the "sizzle" thing like he was hot. My mom thought it was funny, but my siblings got embarrassed.

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    I can very much relate to the whole "friends at first"-thing and the awkwardness of online dating. I don't think I would ever go to a blind date, as I usually need to know a person quite well before I starting to like them, and meeting someone just in order to see if we'd want to have a relationship would be way too pressing. I'm not at all interested in having a relationship "just to have a relationship", and it'd be extremely weird to meet someone totally random to see if they'd be the type of people I'd some day want to get married or have children with.

    This seems to be a problem even to the delta st:s, it seems like they want to move really fast at least compared to what I'd prefer. I just want everyhting to go reeeeealllly slow. Putting too much pressure too early is a big turn-off for me. Maybe it's just my inexperience on the whole dating thing, but it can be kind of frustrating sometimes.

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    To those that are in relationships with SLIs, how long did it typically take to get to know them and for them to open up? What did u consider "opening up"? I ask because it takes me really long and wonder if that's something IEEs/ other deltas find appealing because I don't find it at all appealing in the opposite sex.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel View Post
    If infantiles initiate like aggressors, then they should be called by their proper name, aka: aggressors.

    This whole 'aggressor' thing is a very gamma Ni view on things. Truth is people do have agency, whether Ni+/Ni- accepts this or not. At times agency carries them farther and at times not so far, but they [people] *do* have agency. my 2 cents.

    Just do what April does haha

    cheers
    In my mind, the term "aggressor" in the aggressor-victim terminology as used in the general sense refers to physical aggression.

    Spiritual aggression and physical aggression are very different.
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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    To those that are in relationships with SLIs, how long did it typically take to get to know them and for them to open up? What did u consider "opening up"? I ask because it takes me really long and wonder if that's something IEEs/ other deltas find appealing because I don't find it at all appealing in the opposite sex.
    i'll let you know if and when i end up in a relationship with this SLI I've been working on Chipping away, little by little...

    Actually he hasn't been too bad, he dutifully answers all my questions.. But i feel like conversation is all superficial at this point and he has to do a better job of asking ME questions too, otherwise i feel like things are a little one-sided and i can't be sure if he's just being answering to be nice or if he's really enjoying talking to me. He's starting to though... I think I just have to shut up and then after a while he thinks of something to say...

    The thing about opening up in my view is that it means a lot to me when someone feels they can open up to me. So in a way, if it takes someone a while to open up, i feel our relationship is that much more special. In another way, someone taking a while to open up is appealing to me because it slows down the formation of a relationship to my comfort level as well. So yeah, works out well I guess!
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    I am uncomfortable with initiating relationships; I never have. My boyfriends saw me, liked me, and went for me. That's what I am comfortable with.

    April, I'm pretty sure that what you say about yourself is a reference to Extraversion:

    Reg: EII:

    From it one can not demand and expect:
    enterprise and initiative in affairs;

    http://translate.google.com/translat...e_description/

    Quote Originally Posted by moredhel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I'll refrain from anything harsher given you're Hemo's friend and all, but I'll just say this: That was a tad too condescending. Watch it.
    Your in delta territory now, consider that before taking offense to friendly disagreement.

    Victims have weak valued Se, most people would use valued functions more than unvalued functions, weak or not, if we consider Se the most prominent function in direct initiation victims would rate 2nd. Anyway for this thread it's not important whether or not victim's initiate, this is delta focused and apart from aggressors I'm starting to come around to the thinking that romance type is not a good way to weight initiation, particular as different types and even just people attempt initiation in different ways.
    But, you continuously identify Se with aggression, pushiness, and don't seem to consider that SEE are obstinate types; when an SEE is faced with someone who screams at them, they often shut down. This reaction is not because they are not an Se type. Just because someone is called an "aggressor"/"victim" that doesn't mean they have aggressive sexual style. Coining these types as "touch" is inaccurate. Se is simply a matter of external perception of things around them; these types see, here, and sense their object in multitude of real ways and so are prone to be driven by the object's face value display rather than walking away with something more than which was perceived in reality, that would make it . SeFi types, especially are among the kindest and sexually softest women there are; I've heard many stores where in aggressive situations these women will shut down emotionally. Of course, being both Se and Fi, and a positivist type, they are much more prone to being hurt by relations that do not meet their expectations and falling pray to constant talking about these things in a disappointed manner. I don't see anything aggressive with people who like to sense in the present moment.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-13-2011 at 06:15 AM.

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