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Thread: New acquaintance of mine

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    Default New acquaintance of mine

    Lately I've been making myself get out and meet more people. Some are easy to type; others not so much. Some are interesting (and thus worth typing); others not so much.

    Here's one interesting person I've met lately who I wouldn't mind having some input from you guys on typing. Like in many of my other typing threads, I'll just list some observations and notes, probably adding more later. (I might edit this later, so minimal quoting would be good.)


    - Organizes his company/group's lunches. He says they decide, get supplies, cook, and eat in one hour. They have a kitchen in their office and a supermarket downstairs. He'll usually send a couple of people to get what's needed and then have the rest help where he sees fit. He's the one who tells people what to do and when and how.


    - Likes to cook. And will make yummy things to distract from unpleasantness. He appears to know the approximate amount of effort it would take to make any given dish (something I'd be woefully unable to guess unless I was already familiar with the recipe). That's probably just a matter of experience, though.


    - Enjoys sports and considered becoming a sports trainer. Stays physically active on purpose and for fun.


    - Likes to keep things fairly clean and organized, though he's ok if life happens. But when he gets a good chance he'll clean.


    - He seems to look down on unmotivated people. His brother, for example, who has a "whatever" attitude and who will let the rooms of the house degenerate into messes.


    - I told him my answer to the question of what I'd like to see invented (a transporter) and he began talking about research people had done into just that and how it would work. Or, rather, how it would not work. "Every molecule in your body would have to be taken apart, then put back together exactly as it had been before. Do you know how much information that is?" Etc.


    - He told me that he tends to say what he thinks, though it gets him in trouble sometimes. He can soften if he needs to, but too much and it feels like lying.


    - He calls himself a practical person, and I believe him more or less. (Sometimes people call themselves different things, but from an objective standpoint they're not.) It appears that when a question comes up he tends to look at the pragmatic side, be it concrete or more abstract.


    - Likes to look different from other people. He wears different yet not too outrageous clothing and hair color. For example, white clothing in places where it's slightly impractical to do so, where it has the potential of getting stained. "White versus black, do you get it?"


    - Is mechanically oriented; likes to work with his hands. He has his own soldering equipment, for example. And he talked in detail about how he created and set up these LED lights in his living room. He made it so he can change their colors with his computer. He could have simply bought some lights from a store, but then they would have been static colors and he couldn't decide which he'd like better. So he just made it himself so he could choose whenever he wanted. (Though he says usually he likes them to be a warm orange/red/yellow color.)


    - Seemed relatively adept at understanding people, though I got the feeling that was through study not necessarily... instinctive? As in, he showed signs of breaking down behavior into tangible and describable bits. Kind of like he had found practical ways of understanding people. Once he asked me to look around and tell him what I thought of the people, what they were thinking, based on body language. I looked around and decided not to analyze but to simply go on basic feelings, like I naturally do. I soaked up the vibes and then put them into words as best I could. He said something like, "very good," and agreed with me, but we got interrupted before it could go further.


    - Study aside, he did seem naturally interested in people, their well-being and how they think and feel.


    - Wasn't pushy about much, though when I or someone else (especially me, though, because that's how I am) asked for preference he would usually have one. Perfectly amenable to someone else having a preference, but if a direction was needed he seemed fine with providing one.


    - Speaking of pushy, there are certain people who make me uncomfortable, who put me on edge, where I don't know how to react to them all the time. They tend to be... well, pushier, louder, more insistent... or they like those things. Yes, I know, I'm venturing into stereotypes, but over time I've begun to associate these kinds of people with Beta and Gamma. Anyway, this guy didn't give me those negative vibes.



    Right now I'm thinking Delta or Alpha and probably rational. Does anything jump out at you from my observations?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    first impression he sounds dynamic, Ixxp most likely

    I'd pick NiSe>NeSi so may be ILI

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    Ha, so your thoughts are pretty much the opposite of my initial guess. That's funny.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Ha, so your thoughts are pretty much the opposite of my initial guess. That's funny.
    That is From your description it sounded like his locus of control is extraverted, which is something I associate with dynamic types. He is not pushy but more go-with-the-flow and it sounded like his Je is more situational, so Ip was more likely than EJ. What made you to think that he is a rational type?

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    Right now I'm thinking Delta or Alpha and probably rational. Does anything jump out at you from my observations?
    Nothing jumps out but S>N seems probable.

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    ESTj or ISTp. Most likely Delta.

    I have a gut feeling I wouldn't get along with a person like that.

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    I'd pick NiSe>NeSi so may be ILI
    Assertiveness/pushiness is actually much more Ne/Si than it is Ni/Se. ESTjs conflict with INFps remember, one is pushy and the other isn't. But it's actually the Te-valuing that is the pushiness like that.

    "telling people exactly what you think of them" Points to Fi-valuing. Working hard, looking down on people who are slackers....points to Delta values. Being mechanically-orientated, points to heterosexuality (lol j/k, it wouldn't be a bnd post w/o a quip about sexual orientations tho) as well as Delta ST ness.

    Practicality isn't type related but I'd say...over all the practical quadras are Alpha/Delta and the romantic quadras are Beta/Gamma. (the function Ni is the closest thing that relates to romance.)

    This guy is the opposite of me in almost every way, soooo I say Delta.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    That is From your description it sounded like his locus of control is extraverted, which is something I associate with dynamic types. He is not pushy but more go-with-the-flow and it sounded like his Je is more situational, so Ip was more likely than EJ. What made you to think that he is a rational type?
    An overall sense of stability or reliability, or at least the desire on his part to be so. I could be totally wrong about it, though, and I'm not opposed to Ip. I'm pretty sure he isn't Ep, unless he was really hiding a lot.


    Side note:

    The feeling I often get from Ep's is that they bounce around hoping to be able to move things, or get them moving. The feeling I often get from Ip's is that if I leaned on them they'd slowly start moving out from under me, that they're expecting of or susceptible to external movement.

    The feeling I often get from other Ij's is that they're stationary and solid. The feeling I often get from Ej's is that they move around, hoping that certain things they bump into will stay put.


    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I have a gut feeling I wouldn't get along with a person like that.
    Yes, you might not. Isn't it funny how things work like that? Like, I'm sure you and I could manage to have a decent conversation (because we both know how to accommodate), but it would probably feel awkward in a lot of places.

    The more people I meet and try to actually talk with, the more I realize that there are just some people with whom it's hard for me to connect no matter how hard I try. Wavelengths are different or something. Goal are different. Sometimes there's partial connection, but very rarely is there anything over 80%. I'm fine with it relating to socionics, though some probably has to do with culture/experiences, too.

    Anyway, I guess I'm just affirming the gut feeling approach.


    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Assertiveness/pushiness is actually much more Ne/Si than it is Ni/Se.
    Interesting, because it's the opposite for me. I guess that it might be a matter of perspective. What's uncomfortably "pushy" for me might very well be something that's perfectly natural and comfortable to you, so you don't see it as pushy. And vice versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    "telling people exactly what you think of them" Points to Fi-valuing. Working hard, looking down on people who are slackers....points to Delta values. Being mechanically-orientated, points to heterosexuality (lol j/k, it wouldn't be a bnd post w/o a quip about sexual orientations tho) as well as Delta ST ness.
    Heh, well, he did mention in passing at one point how this one girl came across as overly masculine and how he couldn't ever really be attracted to that. So I'm ok with the heterosexual estimate.

    (I think that girl is ESTp, btw. Her manners make me laugh, I've never sensed any competition from/with her, and we have gotten along well. She calls me "one of her own" and acts protectively toward me. But I think we wouldn't do well in close proximity for a long period of time.)


    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Practicality isn't type related but I'd say...over all the practical quadras are Alpha/Delta and the romantic quadras are Beta/Gamma. (the function Ni is the closest thing that relates to romance.)

    This guy is the opposite of me in almost every way, soooo I say Delta.
    He could indeed be Delta ST, but I've wanted to hold off on that (in my own mind) because it can be easy to selectively see what I want to see. That's why it's good to have another pair of eyes, even if it's just on my impressions and not on the real person.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    He sounds like an ESTj or ESFj to me. . .

    The practical aspect would appear to make him S, while his authoritative "do this" position over others would appear to make him an extrovert. . .

    The "food collaboration" is a big indicator of him being an ESXj IMO. . . I've only known ESFj and ESTj men that were in charge of such events. Being that we do tend to be some of the more practical types.

    Also, the fact that he picks up on others behaviors and compares them to his past experiences and what he has read makes it appear that ESXj is likely. . .

    The question I would ask at this point is is he more emotional then rational? Or is he more rational then emotional? And because he is a man, it may take time to figure that one out. . .

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellow82 View Post
    The question I would ask at this point is is he more emotional then rational? Or is he more rational then emotional? And because he is a man, it may take time to figure that one out. . .
    Unfortunately my interaction with him was relatively brief and I won't have another in-person chance for quite some time. So I'm stuck with a short window of observation. And you're right, the masculine/feminine thing probably makes a difference here, too. There are things I'm considering mentioning here, but I'm also thinking they might not be entirely type-related simply because of that.

    I'd say he's relatively in touch with the emotional/relational side of life, but he's old enough that it could be a matter of experience and being around good "feeling" types. Can you think of anything specific I could have seen that would be helpful, from your perspective?
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Assertiveness/pushiness is actually much more Ne/Si than it is Ni/Se. ESTjs conflict with INFps remember, one is pushy and the other isn't. But it's actually the Te-valuing that is the pushiness like that.
    I'll disagree with you here that it's the N/S functions that have anything to do with assertiveness/pushiness. Correlating T-F and N-S scales with Big 5 model model it is the T-F scale that has moderate correlation to Agreeableness while N-S shows practically no correlation where Agreeableness is defined as "a tendency to be compassionate and cooperative rather than suspicious and antagonistic towards others". People who score low on this measure are more likely to get into confrontations with others. So if anything the ESTj in your example is more confrontational than the INFp because ESTj is leading with T while for INFp F takes priority over T. Extending this over to our own Beta quadra SLEs are not aggressive because they are Se but because they are Se-Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by yellow82 View Post
    The "food collaboration" is a big indicator of him being an ESXj IMO. . . I've only known ESFj and ESTj men that were in charge of such events. Being that we do tend to be some of the more practical types.
    I've known some types who did not value Si and had 'weak' Se yet who would concern with resource management and allocation (ex: making sure there is enough food for the party) and would have this sort of practical vibe to them. This could point towards him being sp/x or x/sp with instinctual stackings.

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    I've known some types who did not value Si and had 'weak' Se yet who would concern with resource management and allocation (ex: making sure there is enough food for the party) and would have this sort of practical vibe to them. This could point towards him being sp/x or x/sp with instinctual stackings.
    Hmmm, true. . . but it's extremely rare, and usually those types get "pushed" into it one way or another. ESFj's and ESTj's tend to do it naturally. . .

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    Bumping an old thread 'cause I got new data.

    - Considers himself a shy person, particularly with women. When I asked why he wasn't afraid to talk to me he said, "I already know you." He says he's worked to overcome the shyness. He does seem to be relatively quiet, not a show off, particularly with people he doesn't know.
    - One time at a social/professional after-hours event, he talked for a couple of minutes with a man he only slightly knew, and when he finished he said to me, "There, I've done my good deed of the day. He was polite; I was polite." ... Apparently small-talk with people he doesn't know or like is a tedious trial.

    - Clear but gentle in expressing interest toward people he's attracted to; persistent but doesn't just barrel through boundaries. Comfort of the other person seems paramount.

    - Cognizant of how other people are feeling, particularly physically
    - Knows how to make people feel better, or feel different (good) things. This can be directly physical, but also indirectly. For example, he figured out that people crowding me makes me uncomfortable (sensory overload, though I'm not sure if he's figured that part out - I'm not sure that occurs to him...). So when there's a crowd he's started "making me a bubble" using his own body as a shield, plus sort of using body cues to move me out of someone's way or into a more open spot.
    - Appears to naturally think that physically feeling better will lead to emotionally feeling better.

    - Is a good chef, but hasn't ever used a recipe; cooks "by ear" (or by taste? dunno what to call it).

    - Likes dancing

    - Recognizes male-female roles and doesn't seem to have a problem with it, although he's always been respectful of both genders as a whole as far as I can tell. I've never felt less than an equal with him.

    - Is attracted to femininity - long hair, for example.

    - In many ways appears to me to think similarly to my ESE friend, particularly in the doing aspects of things, like practicality
    - He and the ESE almost immediately started joking together at my expense. Apparently I'm amusing. I got teased about lack of practicality, inability to care for myself, weird ways I might try to handle things, things that could physically happen to me, my various reactions to things... They both think my "confused face" is fun/cute.
    - I feel really... incompetent around him and the ESE. I'm not sure what it is, but I found myself feeling extra superfluous, and even mildly in the way. I felt like every idea I had got initial interest, but then ended up getting shot down as ridiculously impractical. So I would often just try to stay out the way and look at interesting things by myself, like taking pictures of lettuce.
    - Then again, I feel like without me interjecting ideas and time-related thoughts the two of them may have stagnated. I'm starting to think I should just focus my suggestions on pure ideas or goals and then leave the implementation to them. I guess I'm just used to figuring out ways to get where/what I want done, even if the path there isn't the most efficient or cost-effective. And now I have these two who feed off of each other's senses of how to best accomplish things, multiplying any efficiency they would have had on their own, which makes me feel silly about what I usually try on my own.

    - Apparently our local Saturday market was too "alternative" for him... Sure, there's usually a bunch of normal to weird-quirky people running around, but in my opinion it's pretty tame. It's mostly just cute stuff, like kilted unicyclists playing accordions every so often, at worst. Also, at one point we walked by a place that seemed to attract gothy hipsterish-looking people, and that was "very alternative." He's from Europe (and my impression is that Europeans tend to be more open about a lot of behavior), but it still was too weird for him I guess. I can't help but wonder if me, a sheltered prudish American, is more open to different people than him, a sophisticated experienced European.

    - Does not drink to get drunk but to "enjoy it." He hasn't been really drunk in a long time, and I get the impression he doesn't want to. He doesn't like smoking at all, or being around smokers, though he's usually externally polite about it and only privately will make faces over it. He told me about the only time he actually didn't mind smoke was in Cuba, where some men had a certain type that he actually enjoyed because it smelled good to him.

    - I totally trust him with regard to choosing drinks for me. I'm not a drinker, either, and he has a skill with selecting a drink that fits both the occasion and whatever I happen to be needing at the time.

    - Is essentially a secular humanist, but has openness to "spirituality." It seems he associates spirituality with certain feelings; he doesn't seem adept at understanding or conversing in these things, but he says he's trying to be open, especially recently.

    - Laughs at people a bit behind their backs, or comments on them. Usually not too cruelly, but more than I do, for sure. I found myself defending them occasionally. Things that seem to snag his attention are silly things they say, being overweight/out-of-shape, other aesthetic failings e.g. being smelly (the smelly people really got to him for some reason...). He also found large cars and gangster talk hilarious, but that is probably just cultural.

    - Likes making rockets, has a HAM radio, and thinks Star Trek is great. (He and the ESE had fun doing the Vulcan hand thing together.)



    I'm thinking caregiver, but can't decide on Alpha or Delta. Or rational/irrational, for that matter.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    ESTj-Si 9w8.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    ESTj-Si 9w8.
    Ah, how deliciously specific. Now - 'splain your thinking, sir. Why Ej over Ip? Why Te over Fe? And why 9w8? I do agree Si-sub of any type is likely, heh.
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    My impression was formed after reading both description, one after another, trying to form an image as comprehensive as possible of the person in question, who by all means sounds like quite an interesting fellow, and somewhat similar to myself may I add, in the way you have depicted his persona. The IP/EJ distinction was actually the hardest one for me to pin down, as your description tends not to reveal so much of his temperament as it does about his static personal qualities and areas of confidence. I settled on ESTj as opposed to ISTp, because the overall sound of the description makes him come off as someone perhaps a bit too active and "unwavering" in terms of releasing energy and getting things done. IPs tend to be more passive, lacking initiative, and somewhat moody. He sounds like a pretty straight-up guy, unconcerned with influencing the emotions of others or openly expressing his, averse to smalltalk, reserved and selective of his company, says what he thinks... I see nothing indicative of Fe. 9w8 because I recently read some enneagram stuff, and because he sounds a whole lot like me.

    It's just a guess.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    My impression was formed after reading both description, one after another, trying to form an image as comprehensive as possible of the person in question, who by all means sounds like quite an interesting fellow, and somewhat similar to myself may I add, in the way you have depicted his persona. The IP/EJ distinction was actually the hardest one for me to pin down, as your description tends not to reveal so much of his temperament as it does about his static personal qualities and areas of confidence. I settled on ESTj as opposed to ISTp, because the overall sound of the description makes him come off as someone perhaps a bit too active and "unwavering" in terms of releasing energy and getting things done. IPs tend to be more passive, lacking initiative, and somewhat moody. He sounds like a pretty straight-up guy, unconcerned with influencing the emotions of others or openly expressing his, averse to smalltalk, reserved and selective of his company, says what he thinks... I see nothing indicative of Fe. 9w8 because I recently read some enneagram stuff, and because he sounds a whole lot like me.

    It's just a guess.


    What parts sound like you, if you don't mind me asking?


    One reason I'm still torn on the Fe-Te divide is that he's "softer" in interactions than I expect Te's to be. This may be something that changes over time, as veneers wear off. But so far I haven't seen him be as caustic as I've seen most self-typed Te's on here, like yourself, Absurd, Expat, Smilex, FDG...


    A couple more anecdotes:

    He occasionally (almost compulsively at times) gives advice on better ways to do things, or even just to do things. Particularly when I'm driving... Now, I'm a pretty good driver if I do say so myself, but I've always felt it a little weird to have people watching me while I do it, or when I'm eating, too. Actually, anything where I have to handle objects moving around, be it my own body or basketballs... Anyway, he'll quietly say things like, "Woah, stop," if something jumps out in front of me and I act like I don't see it. Or after he saw me parallel park he gave me an impromptu tutorial on the simplest way to remember how to do it right the first time. (What's kind of funny, though, is that in the times where I've seen him parallel park, I've actually ended up doing a better job - probably because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but still. It amused me a tiny bit.)

    An interesting thing about all that, though, is that somehow I didn't end up offended at the instructions. Or even all that uncomfortable, which is really unusual, considering my dislike of being observed like that.


    He has complained to me once about how some people are overly dependent on him, and how it gets annoying at times. I proffered the platitude that starts "Give a man a fish..." and he said, "I have taught them to fish; they still keep coming back. "
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    What parts sound like you, if you don't mind me asking?
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    - Considers himself a shy person, particularly with women. When I asked why he wasn't afraid to talk to me he said, "I already know you." He says he's worked to overcome the shyness. He does seem to be relatively quiet, not a show off, particularly with people he doesn't know.

    Yeah.

    - Clear but gentle in expressing interest toward people he's attracted to; persistent but doesn't just barrel through boundaries. Comfort of the other person seems paramount.

    For the most part.

    - Cognizant of how other people are feeling, particularly physically

    Yes, when I pay attention.

    - Knows how to make people feel better, or feel different (good) things. This can be directly physical, but also indirectly. For example, he figured out that people crowding me makes me uncomfortable (sensory overload, though I'm not sure if he's figured that part out - I'm not sure that occurs to him...). So when there's a crowd he's started "making me a bubble" using his own body as a shield, plus sort of using body cues to move me out of someone's way or into a more open spot.

    Sounds like something I'd do. Even though I'd usually ask(/talk about it) to confirm my observations.

    - Is attracted to femininity - long hair, for example.

    Sure.

    - Is essentially a secular humanist, but has openness to "spirituality." It seems he associates spirituality with certain feelings; he doesn't seem adept at understanding or conversing in these things, but he says he's trying to be open, especially recently.

    Pretty much.

    - Laughs at people a bit behind their backs, or comments on them. Usually not too cruelly, but more than I do, for sure. I found myself defending them occasionally. Things that seem to snag his attention are silly things they say, being overweight/out-of-shape, other aesthetic failings e.g. being smelly (the smelly people really got to him for some reason...).

    I do this, too.
    And a few things from the opening post. But I'm too tired to pick them out right now.

    Fwiw, the things I don't relate to are the love for sports, cleaning, and dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    One reason I'm still torn on the Fe-Te divide is that he's "softer" in interactions than I expect Te's to be. This may be something that changes over time, as veneers wear off. But so far I haven't seen him be as caustic as I've seen most self-typed Te's on here, like yourself, Absurd, Expat, Smilex, FDG...
    I don't know. I've been called things like warm/soft/etc lately, though I think my caustic side is still there when I need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    He occasionally (almost compulsively at times) gives advice on better ways to do things, or even just to do things. Particularly when I'm driving... Now, I'm a pretty good driver if I do say so myself, but I've always felt it a little weird to have people watching me while I do it, or when I'm eating, too. Actually, anything where I have to handle objects moving around, be it my own body or basketballs... Anyway, he'll quietly say things like, "Woah, stop," if something jumps out in front of me and I act like I don't see it. Or after he saw me parallel park he gave me an impromptu tutorial on the simplest way to remember how to do it right the first time. (What's kind of funny, though, is that in the times where I've seen him parallel park, I've actually ended up doing a better job - probably because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but still. It amused me a tiny bit.)

    An interesting thing about all that, though, is that somehow I didn't end up offended at the instructions. Or even all that uncomfortable, which is really unusual, considering my dislike of being observed like that.


    He has complained to me once about how some people are overly dependent on him, and how it gets annoying at times. I proffered the platitude that starts "Give a man a fish..." and he said, "I have taught them to fish; they still keep coming back. "
    Add a few more points to Si creative.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Fwiw, the things I don't relate to are the love for sports, cleaning, and dancing.
    Yeah, if you relate to a lot probably it'd be easier to say what you don't relate to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I don't know. I've been called things like warm/soft/etc lately, though I think my caustic side is still there when I need it.
    Fair enough.


    We're going on a sort of road trip with a couple other friends later next month, so it'll be interesting to see more unfold over the next few weeks. Yay for testing close psychological distances.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Bumping an old thread 'cause I got new data.
    Okay, I'm going to run through it as previous poster.

    - Considers himself a shy person, particularly with women. When I asked why he wasn't afraid to talk to me he said, "I already know you." He says he's worked to overcome the shyness. He does seem to be relatively quiet, not a show off, particularly with people he doesn't know.
    I do not have great problems with this at all but when it comes to deeper stuff, stuff that makes it worthwhile I found that most females do not fit the bill. Not that I was or am on an active journey, a desperate journey.

    - One time at a social/professional after-hours event, he talked for a couple of minutes with a man he only slightly knew, and when he finished he said to me, "There, I've done my good deed of the day. He was polite; I was polite." ... Apparently small-talk with people he doesn't know or like is a tedious trial.
    I think I would phrase it this way.

    Meow: You doing great?
    Cluck: Ye, I'm doing this and that.
    Meow: Cool.
    Cluck: Ye, it is.

    I don't think I have ever got into a convo about my life with anyone I do not know nor place a drop of trust into.

    - Clear but gentle in expressing interest toward people he's attracted to; persistent but doesn't just barrel through boundaries. Comfort of the other person seems paramount.
    Hmm.

    - Cognizant of how other people are feeling, particularly physically
    I do not know how others feel (physically) unless they tell me.

    - Knows how to make people feel better, or feel different (good) things. This can be directly physical, but also indirectly. For example, he figured out that people crowding me makes me uncomfortable (sensory overload, though I'm not sure if he's figured that part out - I'm not sure that occurs to him...). So when there's a crowd he's started "making me a bubble" using his own body as a shield, plus sort of using body cues to move me out of someone's way or into a more open spot.
    A friend of mine just walked behind me just to get to the front of the stage during a concert. People were bouncing off me anyway. Does that count?

    - Appears to naturally think that physically feeling better will lead to emotionally feeling better.
    Never thought about that but as long one stays in shape, not counting relationships burned, it can work.

    - Is a good chef, but hasn't ever used a recipe; cooks "by ear" (or by taste? dunno what to call it).
    Never cooked anything.

    - Likes dancing
    Not really.

    - Recognizes male-female roles and doesn't seem to have a problem with it, although he's always been respectful of both genders as a whole as far as I can tell. I've never felt less than an equal with him.
    You mean wearing a skirt by a man is part of gender roles?

    - Is attracted to femininity - long hair, for example.
    I take it men who wear long hair or wigs are feminine. Haha.


    - Apparently our local Saturday market was too "alternative" for him... Sure, there's usually a bunch of normal to weird-quirky people running around, but in my opinion it's pretty tame. It's mostly just cute stuff, like kilted unicyclists playing accordions every so often, at worst. Also, at one point we walked by a place that seemed to attract gothy hipsterish-looking people, and that was "very alternative." He's from Europe (and my impression is that Europeans tend to be more open about a lot of behavior), but it still was too weird for him I guess. I can't help but wonder if me, a sheltered prudish American, is more open to different people than him, a sophisticated experienced European.
    Set him on fire.

    - Does not drink to get drunk but to "enjoy it." He hasn't been really drunk in a long time, and I get the impression he doesn't want to. He doesn't like smoking at all, or being around smokers, though he's usually externally polite about it and only privately will make faces over it. He told me about the only time he actually didn't mind smoke was in Cuba, where some men had a certain type that he actually enjoyed because it smelled good to him.
    I would kill him and set him on fire myself.

    - I totally trust him with regard to choosing drinks for me. I'm not a drinker, either, and he has a skill with selecting a drink that fits both the occasion and whatever I happen to be needing at the time.
    No matter what occasion it is vodka and beer for me.

    - Is essentially a secular humanist, but has openness to "spirituality." It seems he associates spirituality with certain feelings; he doesn't seem adept at understanding or conversing in these things, but he says he's trying to be open, especially recently.
    What is that?

    - Laughs at people a bit behind their backs, or comments on them. Usually not too cruelly, but more than I do, for sure.
    No fucking way, I mean I would just say it straight as long the situations would require it. I do not go on one is this or that behind one's back, I mean, it is visible but to comment on it, again, behind one's back is not really how I roll.
    Last edited by Absurd; 07-25-2012 at 10:20 PM.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I do not have great problems with this at all but when it comes to deeper stuff, stuff that makes it worthwhile I found that most females do not fit the bill. Not that I was or am on an active journey, a desperate journey.
    You find it easy/comfortable to strike up conversation with just about anybody?


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I think I would phrase it this way.

    Meow: You doing great?
    Cluck: Ye, I'm doing this and that.
    Meow: Cool.
    Cluck: Ye, it is.
    I think that's essentially how it went.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I don't think I have ever got into a convo about my life with anyone I do not know nor place a drop of trust into.
    How do you get to know someone without sharing things about your life?


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Hmm.
    Hmm?


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    A friend of mine just walked behind me just to get to the front of the stage during a concert. People were bouncing off me anyway. Does that count?
    Lol, um, I think it means your friend was smart, not so much that you were looking out for them. Unless you suggested or encouraged them to do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Never cooked anything.
    It's an interesting experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You mean wearing a skirt by a man is part of gender roles?



    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Set him on fire.

    I would kill him and set him on fire myself.
    o.O Why the violent suggestions? You no like this person?


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    No matter what occasion it is vodka and beer for me.
    Unrelated to this thread - I think I've accidentally developed a taste for scotch. I blame it on this weird French scotch mix thingy that one colleague brought back for another colleague. I could only actually handle like three sips, but now normal scotch tastes acceptable. I'm not sure what to think of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    What is that?
    What is what?


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    No fucking way, I mean I would just say it straight as long the situations would require it. I do not go on one is this or that behind one's back, I mean, it is visible but to comment on it, again, behind one's back is not really how I roll.
    Yeah, that makes sense and is a bit more how I like it to be, too.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    You find it easy/comfortable to strike up conversation with just about anybody?
    Ye sure, as long I need something like a light or a cig. I get it, "conversation" over. Not that I treat everyone like that, mostly random strangers I don't know. And I wrote ransom strangers instead of random strangers before automatically. Freudian slip or something.


    How do you get to know someone without sharing things about your life?
    Easy. I already know one and one knows me. I don't go like "hey, I live here and there, got a lot of cash, my name is such and such, here's my ID, keep it and come rob me and kill me anytime you want" to a total stranger. You never know whom you're going to meet, trust me.

    Although I got to know two ex-convicts this way. The irony. One even showed me photos of his kids and shared his life story. It was a fine chat, have to admit. The other just shook my hand and said "hey I was just released from prison, do you know where can I get cheap booze?" There were plenty of other people around but it was me.

    And that all on different train stations.

    It's an interesting experience.
    Barbecue tomorrow.

    Men in skirts, a bit like Catholic priests.

    Why the violent suggestions? You no like this person?
    I was after a couple of beers and the stuff that comes out of my mouth after is, well, funny. And who is that I wanted you to set on fire?

    I could only actually handle like three sips, but now normal scotch tastes acceptable. I'm not sure what to think of this.
    You're out of school so they won't kick you out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Barbecue tomorrow.
    Last time I had barbecue it was with some Mexican gangsters. I'm so straight-edge they almost didn't seem to know what to do with me. But we got along ok.


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Men in skirts, a bit like Catholic priests.
    Hm, how is this relevant again?


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I was after a couple of beers and the stuff that comes out of my mouth after is, well, funny. And who is that I wanted you to set on fire?
    In context, I believe it was the subject of this thread you wanted to kill and set on fire. Any idea why?


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You're out of school so they won't kick you out.
    I'm not worried about getting kicked out of anywhere. It's more how quickly I adapted to the harsher substance.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Last time I had barbecue it was with some Mexican gangsters. I'm so straight-edge they almost didn't seem to know what to do with me. But we got along ok.
    Oh really? I'm curious how that went down, or took place. Did they speak a lot of Spanish/to you?

    Were you smuggling drugs south of the boarder?


    ... as far as this person, EJ caregiver seems most obvious.

    - In many ways appears to me to think similarly to my ESE friend, particularly in the doing aspects of things, like practicality
    - He and the ESE almost immediately started joking together at my expense. Apparently I'm amusing. I got teased about lack of practicality, inability to care for myself, weird ways I might try to handle things, things that could physically happen to me, my various reactions to things... They both think my "confused face" is fun/cute.
    - I feel really... incompetent around him and the ESE. I'm not sure what it is, but I found myself feeling extra superfluous, and even mildly in the way. I felt like every idea I had got initial interest, but then ended up getting shot down as ridiculously impractical. So I would often just try to stay out the way and look at interesting things by myself, like taking pictures of lettuce.
    - Then again, I feel like without me interjecting ideas and time-related thoughts the two of them may have stagnated. I'm starting to think I should just focus my suggestions on pure ideas or goals and then leave the implementation to them. I guess I'm just used to figuring out ways to get where/what I want done, even if the path there isn't the most efficient or cost-effective. And now I have these two who feed off of each other's senses of how to best accomplish things, multiplying any efficiency they would have had on their own, which makes me feel silly about what I usually try on my own.

    - Apparently our local Saturday market was too "alternative" for him... Sure, there's usually a bunch of normal to weird-quirky people running around, but in my opinion it's pretty tame. It's mostly just cute stuff, like kilted unicyclists playing accordions every so often, at worst. Also, at one point we walked by a place that seemed to attract gothy hipsterish-looking people, and that was "very alternative." He's from Europe (and my impression is that Europeans tend to be more open about a lot of behavior), but it still was too weird for him I guess. I can't help but wonder if me, a sheltered prudish American, is more open to different people than him, a sophisticated experienced European.
    ... I trust in your ability to recognize an XSE or EJ when you see one, and the comparisons you make here to your ESE friend seem quite reasonable.

    And yes, you may even be more open than mr Europe.

    Also, ESEs and LSEs can be very effective together, and very focused on facilitation. It's ok to tell them to consider something different, even if you're outmanned.

    They seem like they'd have camaraderie regarding their inherent EJ 'feeling responsible to facilitate experiences' feelings; doing things together can be easier.


    ... what do you think the most significant differences between the ESE and mr europe are?

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Oh really? I'm curious how that went down, or took place.
    A friend invited me to a barbecue. I went. So did they.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Did they speak a lot of Spanish/to you?
    No. They spoke perfect English.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Were you smuggling drugs south of the boarder?
    No. Not the border, either.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ... as far as this person, EJ caregiver seems most obvious.
    Ok. Why? Do you relate to this person?


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ... what do you think the most significant differences between the ESE and mr europe are?
    ESE knows me better, but that's NTR. She also agrees with me in terms of religion/spirituality - but, again, NTR.

    Um, ESE is more openly friendly, a little more enthusiastic, more emotional. Her humor is not as dry. She's not as likely to try new things on her own. She's not as much of a "partier" as he is. She talks a slight bit more, maybe. She also seems to jump to judgments a little quicker; however, she's also a little quicker to take them back once she's made one, like if I contradict her in it.

    She's less keen on having nice things, though that may be a product of her upbringing. For example, he was insistent that on our road trip we get real glasses for the wine, none of this plastic or paper stuff. In fact, he wants to use real plates and utensils for everything. She and I aren't convinced that's the most practical thing, but whatever, we'll humor him.

    She doesn't try to instruct me as much as he does; in fact, she claims she likes having people tell her what to do. She's a little kinder toward people, gives them the benefit of the doubt a bit more. She seems more likely to try to help people out. She's perhaps a little more likely to aim toward my emotions when cheering me as opposed to the more indirect approach of fixing the problem. She also is more likely to tell me to "deal with it" than he, but that could be a matter of familiarity.

    Hmm, what else... I think I'll be able to make more and better comparisons during/after the trip.


    I get the feeling that both of them hold back a little on their more "carnal" sides for my sake, I think for fear I'll get offended or otherwise not like it.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Last time I had barbecue it was with some Mexican gangsters. I'm so straight-edge they almost didn't seem to know what to do with me. But we got along ok.
    Only in America.

    Hm, how is this relevant again?
    http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_gui...eId-26895.html

    http://voadn.hubpages.com/hub/Pants-...-by-Ann-Bannon

    http://www.freeonlineresearchpapers....-symbol-gender

    http://thecurrent-online.com/opinion...ason-required/

    Ring a bell?

    In context, I believe it was the subject of this thread you wanted to kill and set on fire. Any idea why?
    Nah, not really. Wanting to do that I would stop responding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    what do you think the most significant differences between the ESE and mr europe are?
    Oh, I thought of another difference between ESE and him: She seems more likely to listen to my "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!" communications and take them seriously.

    For example, my thought was to bring a good-sized emergency kit along with us on our trip. ESE hadn't necessarily been thinking of it, but she liked my idea and started making a list of the things we could pack in it. When we told this guy about it, he basically said, "Nah, we won't need all that. Maybe only a very small one for minor injuries. There'll be a hospital / medical center where we're going." Same thing happened when I mentioned bringing a good bike repair kit. ESE jumped right on board, but this guy said we probably wouldn't need it and if we did there would be other people around we could ask for help, that all I'd have to do was go up and smile while asking - maybe not even smile - and I'd be fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Only in America.
    Eh, it could probably happen elsewhere, too. Like Mexico.


    Yes, I am aware of many male-female stereotypes. Long hair vs. short hair, skirts vs. pants, makeup vs. no makeup, clean-shaven vs. body hair, bra vs. no bra, etc., etc. That's for common modern Western cultures. Different cultures have different norms and stereotypes, both for appearances and behavior. And there are variations and counter-cultural movements within each of those. I know this. My question is - what's your point? I don't mean that in an aggressive way; I really am curious what you were trying to say.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Oh, I thought of another difference between ESE and him: She seems more likely to listen to my "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!" communications and take them seriously.
    Good game.

    Eh, it could probably happen elsewhere, too. Like Mexico.
    This is where I take it you're Mexican.

    My question is - what's your point? I don't mean that in an aggressive way; I really am curious what you were trying to say.
    I was just curious whether men in skirts are considered male or female.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    A friend invited me to a barbecue. I went. So did they.


    No. They spoke perfect English.



    No. Not the border, either.
    How do you know / what makes you say they were gangsters?



    Ok. Why? Do you relate to this person?
    ...

    - Clear but gentle in expressing interest toward people he's attracted to; persistent but doesn't just barrel through boundaries. Comfort of the other person seems paramount.

    - Cognizant of how other people are feeling, particularly physically
    - Knows how to make people feel better, or feel different (good) things. This can be directly physical, but also indirectly. For example, he figured out that people crowding me makes me uncomfortable (sensory overload, though I'm not sure if he's figured that part out - I'm not sure that occurs to him...). So when there's a crowd he's started "making me a bubble" using his own body as a shield, plus sort of using body cues to move me out of someone's way or into a more open spot.
    - Appears to naturally think that physically feeling better will lead to emotionally feeling better.
    These all seem like classic Si valuing types of things, and given the rest of his nature, EJ temperament seems quite persistent with everything else you've said.


    Oh yes, I missed this:
    - Clear but gentle in expressing interest toward people he's attracted to; persistent but doesn't just barrel through boundaries. Comfort of the other person seems paramount.
    So you've observed this? What makes you say such?
    He's expressed interested in you?

    This all seems blatantly caregiver, don't you think?


    Um, ESE is more openly friendly, a little more enthusiastic, more emotional. Her humor is not as dry. She's not as likely to try new things on her own. She's not as much of a "partier" as he is. She talks a slight bit more, maybe. She also seems to jump to judgments a little quicker; however, she's also a little quicker to take them back once she's made one, like if I contradict her in it.

    She's less keen on having nice things, though that may be a product of her upbringing. For example, he was insistent that on our road trip we get real glasses for the wine, none of this plastic or paper stuff. In fact, he wants to use real plates and utensils for everything. She and I aren't convinced that's the most practical thing, but whatever, we'll humor him.
    Unless you're going to have a lot of water and resources to wash dishes, it seems impractical. What is his reasoning for using those items?


    Even his way of perceiving what is luxury and what is necessary seems particularly Si related, with the ESE and her having (obviously) somewhat, if only slightly, different takes on what 'comfort is'. To use some of the terminology from Gulenko's profiles, they are both comfortable with implementing "Si related programs", or being responsible in maintaining one. This seems fine with Si creative..


    What's more, he seems to have no problems treating you like an infantile and being accommodating towards you in terms of seeing you as someone who values Si and 'comfort', rather than being provoked into things. Don't you think?

    She doesn't try to instruct me as much as he does; in fact, she claims she likes having people tell her what to do. She's a little kinder toward people, gives them the benefit of the doubt a bit more. She seems more likely to try to help people out. She's perhaps a little more likely to aim toward my emotions when cheering me as opposed to the more indirect approach of fixing the problem. She also is more likely to tell me to "deal with it" than he, but that could be a matter of familiarity.

    Hmm, what else... I think I'll be able to make more and better comparisons during/after the trip.
    Right, so, is there anything you can think of as to why he is not LSE, especially juxtaposed to the ESE and your EIIness?

    I get the feeling that both of them hold back a little on their more "carnal" sides for my sake, I think for fear I'll get offended or otherwise not like it.
    Well, can you blame them? Do you appreciate this restraint on their part? Do you think you've given them substantial reasoning for that behavior?



    Do I relate to the person? Somewhat. He has a different take on practicality than I do, it seems. I've worked with ESEs in a similar manner before; they are good at being productive when there are clear directives. In my experiences of me + ESE + delta intratim, similar things have played out. He seems like an extratim rational type who fits his role in a general manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Oh, I thought of another difference between ESE and him: She seems more likely to listen to my "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!" communications and take them seriously.

    For example, my thought was to bring a good-sized emergency kit along with us on our trip. ESE hadn't necessarily been thinking of it, but she liked my idea and started making a list of the things we could pack in it. When we told this guy about it, he basically said, "Nah, we won't need all that. Maybe only a very small one for minor injuries. There'll be a hospital / medical center where we're going." Same thing happened when I mentioned bringing a good bike repair kit. ESE jumped right on board, but this guy said we probably wouldn't need it and if we did there would be other people around we could ask for help, that all I'd have to do was go up and smile while asking - maybe not even smile - and I'd be fine.
    Hm. Has he been there before? It 'sounds' like where you're going is a nice, welcoming place, yes.

    But unless you're short on space, a good bike repair kit is a good idea. Things happen.


    I hope no one is thinking it is a good idea to not bring a significant amount of back-up water, are they? This is not the summer to expect mild conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    This is where I take it you're Mexican.
    A fraction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I was just curious whether men in skirts are considered male or female.
    That probably depends on who you talk to. I don't know if this guy thinks so.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    How do you know / what makes you say they were gangsters?
    My friend told me, and there were various hints throughout the evening. Like at one point we were talking about the guy that dumped my friend and one of the guys casually commented that he could take a few friends to visit him and "ask some questions." My friend laughed nervously and insisted that wasn't necessary.

    One of them was on the region's top wanted list for drug smuggling. But "that was a few years ago." Apparently there's been some mellowing out, likely something to do with the various children they've fathered (through various women...). I heard a lot about "baby mama drama."


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    So you've observed this? What makes you say such?
    He's expressed interested in you?
    Yes, a bit. I'm not sure how serious it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    This all seems blatantly caregiver, don't you think?
    Well, that has been main my main hypothesis for awhile now, yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Unless you're going to have a lot of water and resources to wash dishes, it seems impractical. What is his reasoning for using those items?
    I didn't hear a logical reason. I think it was mainly that something other than that would be a little too much to take.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    What's more, he seems to have no problems treating you like an infantile and being accommodating towards you in terms of seeing you as someone who values Si and 'comfort', rather than being provoked into things. Don't you think?
    Yeah, that whole "treating me like an infantile" thing... It got intensified when the two of them got together, and it made me uncomfortable, as I mentioned.

    Anyway, I don't think anyone is doubting Si. It's now which of the four possible ones?


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Right, so, is there anything you can think of as to why he is not LSE, especially juxtaposed to the ESE and your EIIness?
    The aforementioned "softness." He doesn't have as much of the same sort of energy I associate with Ejs; he seems a bit more laid back so far. Oh, and Absurd doesn't relate to him.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Well, can you blame them? Do you appreciate this restraint on their part? Do you think you've given them substantial reasoning for that behavior?
    "Blame"? Um, I don't feel comfortable with them feeling repressed around me, if that's the case. I don't like thinking people are hiding things from me, parts of themselves. It would be better for us to just not hang out if that's happening, so they don't feel stifled.

    ...I feel like you're trying to make some point with this, something about how I should be different. Could you go ahead and just say it?


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Do I relate to the person? Somewhat. He has a different take on practicality than I do, it seems.
    How so?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    A fraction.
    Oh cool. Didn't know that.

    That probably depends on who you talk to. I don't know if this guy thinks so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    My friend told me, and there were various hints throughout the evening. Like at one point we were talking about the guy that dumped my friend and one of the guys casually commented that he could take a few friends to visit him and "ask some questions." My friend laughed nervously and insisted that wasn't necessary.

    One of them was on the region's top wanted list for drug smuggling. But "that was a few years ago." Apparently there's been some mellowing out, likely something to do with the various children they've fathered (through various women...). I heard a lot about "baby mama drama."
    Your street cred grows.



    Yes, a bit. I'm not sure how serious it is.
    Considering the amount of anecdotes you've had, and the amount of time you've spent together, and that you are planning on going on a trip with him, I'd guess it's relatively significant.
    If he's actually said "Hey I like you" or offered you on a date, then you shouldn't have any questions.

    I don't understand these questions of "I don't know how serious" - perhaps you mean whether or not he wants to marry you. But that's not the same thing as being interested in someone and wanting to spend time with them and try to see where things go. (which I'm sure is obvious).

    Your agreement to spend time with him and particularly go on a road trip will/"is likely to", in his mind, imply that you're 'somewhat' interested in him as well.



    I didn't hear a logical reason. I think it was mainly that something other than that would be a little too much to take.
    Something other than it would be too much?
    I don't understand. So, there was no real reason at all? "Too much effort?"


    Yeah, that whole "treating me like an infantile" thing... It got intensified when the two of them got together, and it made me uncomfortable, as I mentioned.
    Indeed. I think that, if anything, is more points to EJness. I think SEI and SLI are more adept at .... not being smothering in that way. Two EJs can be a bit of an amplification effect, if not an outright multiplier.


    [quote]Anyway, I don't think anyone is doubting Si. It's now which of the four possible ones?
    Right now it seems:

    LSE-Si > ESE-Si > SEI or SLI


    The aforementioned "softness." He doesn't have as much of the same sort of energy I associate with Ejs; he seems a bit more laid back so far. Oh, and Absurd doesn't relate to him.
    Give him relational advice, ethical programs, you know, your Fi stuff. If he reacts like the other Tes, there you go. If he is more assertive about his own ethical program, there you go.

    How about this, if you're up for it - compare and contrast him to Cracka?


    Related - why do you think he's attracted to you? Either in general, or socionically? What do you 'provide' him that he'd like?
    FWIW I have a feeling if he were a pure intratim, things wouldn't flow in the way you describe.


    "Blame"? Um, I don't feel comfortable with them feeling repressed around me, if that's the case. I don't like thinking people are hiding things from me, parts of themselves. It would be better for us to just not hang out if that's happening, so they don't feel stifled.

    ...I feel like you're trying to make some point with this, something about how I should be different. Could you go ahead and just say it?
    I don't have a point.
    I see your nature as being somewhat of a dampener towards more earthy forms of behavior.
    I asked those questions to try to understand what you saw your level as impact on him/them are.


    How so?
    I don't rely on the good graces of a bunch of people I don't know to provide me with repair equipment or medical emergency supplies. I'm used to things not going to plan, and people not being as generous as they could be. I mentioned my take on the dishes.

    This is why I asked about his level of familiarity ; if he's confident about what to expect, then that may be a factor on his reasoning, and that's something I might feel, but only if I felt confident with the area. If he's not familiar with the area, and is expecting to rely more on people's good graces or social pleasantness to get by, that may indicate something. Or not.

    It could just be, also, that he's a guy. Sometimes guys think things will just work out fine like that. Sometimes they don't.

    This is juxtaposed to what you said about his more uptight attitude than your own in regard to other people's cultures --- maybe that's actually a point towards ESE, or, someone who has ethics as a dominant function. Not sure.


    Of course, you should post a picture and a video of him.



    PS: you say you don't see the EJ energy associated with other EJs? What in your mind makes him seem like an intratim ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Something other than it would be too much?
    I don't understand. So, there was no real reason at all? "Too much effort?"
    No. More that the extra effort required would be worth it. The lack of quality would be too much to bear.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Give him relational advice, ethical programs, you know, your Fi stuff. If he reacts like the other Tes, there you go. If he is more assertive about his own ethical program, there you go.
    Ok, I'll try it when I next have the chance.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    How about this, if you're up for it - compare and contrast him to Cracka?
    No.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Related - why do you think he's attracted to you? Either in general, or socionically? What do you 'provide' him that he'd like?
    Um, well, I'm a friendly, feminine woman with a nice figure. I'd guess physical attraction is a relatively significant part. He hasn't really (directly) said what he likes about me, though, apart from one comment on my hair. He does feel that we agree on a lot of things; I'm wondering if that will change at all as we all get to know each other better on this trip.

    I think also I'm probably a challenge.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    FWIW I have a feeling if he were a pure intratim, things wouldn't flow in the way you describe.
    How do you think they'd flow?


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I don't have a point.
    I see your nature as being somewhat of a dampener towards more earthy forms of behavior.
    I asked those questions to try to understand what you saw your level as impact on him/them are.
    I haven't ever directly asked them to do that. Or consciously indirectly, either.

    OTOH, over a year ago, when we first interacted, he told me he was "holding himself back a lot, more than usual." This a little while after he tried dancing to close to me and I pushed him away. (I probably would have been nicer about it except that same evening I and a friend had been dealing with a creeper...) I remember thinking that was an odd thing to say and wondering what not holding back would look like, how he behaves just normally...

    Anyway, I guess that's one time when I "dampened more earthy forms of behavior." He still refers to it occasionally, though he exaggerates my reaction; it seems it wounded him a little (mostly pride, I think).


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I don't rely on the good graces of a bunch of people I don't know to provide me with repair equipment or medical emergency supplies. I'm used to things not going to plan, and people not being as generous as they could be. I mentioned my take on the dishes.

    This is why I asked about his level of familiarity ; if he's confident about what to expect, then that may be a factor on his reasoning, and that's something I might feel, but only if I felt confident with the area. If he's not familiar with the area, and is expecting to rely more on people's good graces or social pleasantness to get by, that may indicate something. Or not.

    It could just be, also, that he's a guy. Sometimes guys think things will just work out fine like that. Sometimes they don't.

    This is juxtaposed to what you said about his more uptight attitude than your own in regard to other people's cultures --- maybe that's actually a point towards ESE, or, someone who has ethics as a dominant function. Not sure.
    Yeah, I believe he feels he is familiar with what's going to happen on the trip and what we'll find/do.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Of course, you should post a picture and a video of him.
    In my other type thread I posted pictures of the two people in question because they had already publicly published those pictures on their own websites. I'm not sure I feel comfortable doing the same to someone who has not publicly published his photo, not in this public forum. I guess if individuals on here wanted to see his photo I might consider it through PM...


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    PS: you say you don't see the EJ energy associated with other EJs? What in your mind makes him seem like an intratim ?
    Less energy when interacting with others. Ejs sometimes seem to me like springs wound up, with an underlying tension or inclination toward action.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    My subconscious, dare I say intuitive, part of my mind was at work today, and the result was that he is actually somewhat more ESE, or at least ESE-Si > LSE-Si. The Si subtype for both of these can be more chill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    No. More that the extra effort required would be worth it. The lack of quality would be too much to bear.
    All can say is Si. I can see Expat saying how he'd think it would be foolish, or his 'car example', where the LIE would just want a car that works, and the LSE would want a spotless, clean car.


    Ok, I'll try it when I next have the chance.
    And LSE will be more likely to mold to your ethical program (if he respects you and sees you as a useful model); an ESE will attempt to comply with your wishes or give you what you want. Try to observe how much you actually influence his decision making process. If he's an ESE, it might be something more like "I'm going to be courteous to you and give you space/flexibility because I'm not mean. But ultimately I know the right way to 'ethically' (not morally, but socionics ethics) analyze this situation".


    Um, well, I'm a friendly, feminine woman with a nice figure. I'd guess physical attraction is a relatively significant part. He hasn't really (directly) said what he likes about me, though, apart from one comment on my hair. He does feel that we agree on a lot of things; I'm wondering if that will change at all as we all get to know each other better on this trip.

    I think also I'm probably a challenge.
    Indeed.


    How do you think they'd flow?
    With a more pure intatim (an introverted intratim, perhaps I should say), there would be something like a sense of stagnation, or at least, both waiting for someone to take the lead (but you probably already know that / have read that). I don't entirely know how you'd act with a fellow intratim vs extratim, so I can't say. But the way you describe his interactions with you, and even with the ESE, makes it sound like something more an EJ would be inclined to do rather than necessarily an extraverted intratim.

    I know you sort of touched on this, but, specifically, comment on the differences between "typical EJ energy" and this guy. And how that compares to your ESE friend.
    To me, the ESE friend sounds like a classic EJ, ESE-Fe, very obvious EJ energy and extratim focus. I don't see this guy as that.


    I haven't ever directly asked them to do that. Or consciously indirectly, either.

    OTOH, over a year ago, when we first interacted, he told me he was "holding himself back a lot, more than usual." This a little while after he tried dancing to close to me and I pushed him away. (I probably would have been nicer about it except that same evening I and a friend had been dealing with a creeper...) I remember thinking that was an odd thing to say and wondering what not holding back would look like, how he behaves just normally...

    Anyway, I guess that's one time when I "dampened more earthy forms of behavior." He still refers to it occasionally, though he exaggerates my reaction; it seems it wounded him a little (mostly pride, I think).
    Right, ok.
    Makes me feel slightly more extratim than intratim.

    Yeah, I believe he feels he is familiar with what's going to happen on the trip and what we'll find/do.
    Ok


    Less energy when interacting with others. Ejs sometimes seem to me like springs wound up, with an underlying tension or inclination toward action.
    Do you have a clear picture of what an ESXj-Si looks like compared to an ESXj-Te or -Fe looks like? The difference in subtypes, basically.

    I guess that's the biggest uncertainty here, is how you would comprehend this difference, and also what experiences you've been able to see.


    Another question is what is his enneagram type?
    And/or, how does he act under stress?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    My subconscious, dare I say intuitive, part of my mind was at work today, and the result was that he is actually somewhat more ESE, or at least ESE-Si > LSE-Si. The Si subtype for both of these can be more chill.
    I would tend to agree with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    And LSE will be more likely to mold to your ethical program (if he respects you and sees you as a useful model);
    .... Right. From my experiences, that might not be the best litmus test.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    an ESE will attempt to comply with your wishes or give you what you want. Try to observe how much you actually influence his decision making process. If he's an ESE, it might be something more like "I'm going to be courteous to you and give you space/flexibility because I'm not mean. But ultimately I know the right way to 'ethically' (not morally, but socionics ethics) analyze this situation".
    Ok.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I know you sort of touched on this, but, specifically, comment on the differences between "typical EJ energy" and this guy. And how that compares to your ESE friend.
    To me, the ESE friend sounds like a classic EJ, ESE-Fe, very obvious EJ energy and extratim focus. I don't see this guy as that.
    I see her more as probably a Si subtype, but I'm open to different opinions on that. I do know that overall she doesn't fit the stereotypical bubbly, social extrovert that many type descriptions present - you know, the ones that talk about ESE's always organizing parties and pushing people to have "fun." But when you dig down into things like temperament, functions / IE ordering, etc. that's the type that best fits her, from my perspective.

    I think I need to observe him more to see how his natural flows of energy manifest... I feel like I don't have enough data, that I'm just going on gut feelings and guesses right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Do you have a clear picture of what an ESXj-Si looks like compared to an ESXj-Te or -Fe looks like? The difference in subtypes, basically.
    I have ideas in my own head, of course. The reason I made this thread, though, was to get ideas from other people's heads.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I guess that's the biggest uncertainty here, is how you would comprehend this difference, and also what experiences you've been able to see.
    I haven't actually had a lot of time to gain experiences with this guy. All told two weeks at most, really a bit less, despite having known him for a little over a year. We live in different parts of the world most of the year. So my sampling is small to start off with, plus who knows how he's adapted himself thus far.

    I think it will be interesting to get my ESE's perspective on him. She's usually got something to say about everybody.

    When I asked my SEE friend, who knew him first, what she thinks of him, she shrugged and said something like, "He's ok. Nice. A little European creepy, but not like [another guy who had harassed us]. He's good." (By "European creepy" I think she meant how they tend to invade personal space a bit more than she's used to.)

    The last time I saw them talk, though, I sensed some tension. She's quite flirty and chases the boys a lot, and I think he doesn't respect her for that. She was making plans to hang out with a new guy acquaintance at a movie theater, he made a crude gesture toward her, and she flipped him off. When she left a little after that she didn't look especially happy.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Another question is what is his enneagram type?
    And/or, how does he act under stress?
    He swears. Then appears to recalculate how to approach things. But those were relatively minor setbacks. I haven't seen him under bigger stress.

    I don't know his E-type. Park suggested 9w8.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I would tend to agree with that.

    .... Right. From my experiences, that might not be the best litmus test.
    Is that so.... I still think what I said is true.

    I see her more as probably a Si subtype, but I'm open to different opinions on that. I do know that overall she doesn't fit the stereotypical bubbly, social extrovert that many type descriptions present - you know, the ones that talk about ESE's always organizing parties and pushing people to have "fun." But when you dig down into things like temperament, functions / IE ordering, etc. that's the type that best fits her, from my perspective.
    Oh really? I don't know her that well, then.

    If you see her as potentially ESE-Si in that way, and see him as being potentially less so, or less EJ, that would impact my prior analysis.

    I think I need to observe him more to see how his natural flows of energy manifest... I feel like I don't have enough data, that I'm just going on gut feelings and guesses right now.
    Yes

    I have ideas in my own head, of course. The reason I made this thread, though, was to get ideas from other people's heads.
    I was trying to pick your brain and understand your analysis process, so I could see how you were actually interpreting the data you presented me. But I know that isn't the point of your thread, yes.

    I haven't actually had a lot of time to gain experiences with this guy. All told two weeks at most, really a bit less, despite having known him for a little over a year. We live in different parts of the world most of the year. So my sampling is small to start off with, plus who knows how he's adapted himself thus far.
    Indeed.

    I think it will be interesting to get my ESE's perspective on him. She's usually got something to say about everybody.
    I think you just volunteered yourself to practice your reporter skills. We are looking forward to the video (or transcript) of this interview; 60 Minutes with Minde Khan.

    When I asked my SEE friend, who knew him first, what she thinks of him, she shrugged and said something like, "He's ok. Nice. A little European creepy, but not like [another guy who had harassed us]. He's good." (By "European creepy" I think she meant how they tend to invade personal space a bit more than she's used to.)

    The last time I saw them talk, though, I sensed some tension. She's quite flirty and chases the boys a lot, and I think he doesn't respect her for that. She was making plans to hang out with a new guy acquaintance at a movie theater, he made a crude gesture toward her, and she flipped him off. When she left a little after that she didn't look especially happy.
    Interesting. The culture factor will probably be more apparent, as you noted, with increased and diverse experiences.
    The SEE interaction is interesting.

    Can you elaborate on "he doesn't respect her for that"?
    How do you know? What cues did he give, or what about his personality implies that he finds this unappealing? What kind of a judgment was it?
    ... what motivated him to give her a rude gesture ?

    He swears. Then appears to recalculate how to approach things. But those were relatively minor setbacks. I haven't seen him under bigger stress.

    I don't know his E-type. Park suggested 9w8.
    I wonder what the nature of his reconsideration is, and/or why there is an inclination for him to have an expression and then seek to correct it. If anything that may be a sign of being an S type, in a stereotypical sense. But how and why he corrects himself is something I would be curious about.

    There seems an incompleteness of something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Indeed.
    "You say that a lot."


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Interesting. The culture factor will probably be more apparent, as you noted, with increased and diverse experiences.
    The SEE interaction is interesting.

    Can you elaborate on "he doesn't respect her for that"?
    How do you know? What cues did he give, or what about his personality implies that he finds this unappealing? What kind of a judgment was it?
    ... what motivated him to give her a rude gesture ?
    I figured out a little later that he wanted to get rid of her. That apparently was one way to encourage her leaving... (He also wanted someone else to leave. They did. Not sure if he had anything to do with it or how, but now I'm venturing way into speculation so I'll stop.)

    A different time she was talking about her interest in one of her coworkers, he asked "What about [the other guy she's more-or-less dating]?" She said, "Well, he's [far away]... " He made a face, then after she skipped off he said, "Well, it's not really how I'd do it, but... *shrug*"

    Personally, I feel it wrong of him to judge her since he seems to have been involved in his share of uncommitted relationships, but whatever. Obviously that wasn't a very severe judgment from him, though, and he's even invited her on our trip. But he did use it as a weapon...


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I wonder what the nature of his reconsideration is, and/or why there is an inclination for him to have an expression and then seek to correct it. If anything that may be a sign of being an S type, in a stereotypical sense. But how and why he corrects himself is something I would be curious about.

    There seems an incompleteness of something.
    No, I meant reconsider how to approach the problem that upset him. Not reconsider the reaction.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    "You say that a lot."
    'Do I?'


    I figured out a little later that he wanted to get rid of her. That apparently was one way to encourage her leaving... (He also wanted someone else to leave. They did. Not sure if he had anything to do with it or how, but now I'm venturing way into speculation so I'll stop.)

    A different time she was talking about her interest in one of her coworkers, he asked "What about [the other guy she's more-or-less dating]?" She said, "Well, he's [far away]... " He made a face, then after she skipped off he said, "Well, it's not really how I'd do it, but... *shrug*"

    Personally, I feel it wrong of him to judge her since he seems to have been involved in his share of uncommitted relationships, but whatever. Obviously that wasn't a very severe judgment from him, though, and he's even invited her on our trip. But he did use it as a weapon...
    hmmmmmm..............




    No, I meant reconsider how to approach the problem that upset him. Not reconsider the reaction.
    Oh

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