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Thread: ENTx: Se vs Si, Fe vs Fi

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    Default ENTx: Se vs. Si, Fe vs. Fi

    It seems one of the most important differences between ENTjs and ENTps are these functions. Both types need their dual to ground them, but it's in different ways.

    Se vs. Si:

    ENTps need their dual to make them more comfortable and healthy. ISFps do this by sort mothering them. They make the ENTps surroundings more comfortable and pleasant.

    ENTjs need their dual to make them do things. Only their dual is allowed to do this, of course. ISFjs manage their surroundings and make the ENTjs manage their surroundings as well. ISFjs have a good feel for what should be done and how it should be done. They remind the ENTjs that just because something isn't going to directly profit them doesn't mean it can be put off.

    Fe vs. Fi:

    ENTps need their dual to make them feel loved... ? The ISFp helps the ENTp to behave in a Fe manner around others, making it easier them more charismatic and be more confidnent in their charisma??? Perhaps ISFps work are the charisma for the pair, making the ENTp seem more likable to others???

    ENTjs need their dual to remind them that there is a very real difference between right and wrong, that they are not simply just two sides of the same coin. They greatly appreciate the ISFjs family values, such as love and affection for their children.


    uhhhh comments?
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    Sigh, you ask so many questions that I can't belive you have any Te bone
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Your doubts about my Te do not shake my confidence in it. Besides, most of the time when I'm asking a question... I'm not actually asking... I'm telling. I am open to criticism though. for the sake of better understanding the subject at hand.
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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    <3
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Sigh, you ask so many questions that I can't belive you have any Te bone
    i wonder of peters opinion on this matter
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    he refuses to comment
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    Default Re: ENTx: Se vs. Si, Fe vs. Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ENTjs need their dual to remind them that there is a very real difference between right and wrong, that they are not simply just two sides of the same coin.
    That is not the reason, ENTjs have their own ethical values.

    The main explanation for the dual-seeking function is here:

    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3660

    Transigent and implied both agreed before deciding to edit out their posts
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    there have been a few conversations about what our types are, and each time it has ended with him saying that he wants exact statistics on how many people of each type possess certain characteristics in the description (like how many ENTps pay their bills on time, keep things neat, dislike change, have very strong opinions on morality, and worry about all of the details about a future event before proceeding instead of rushing in optimistically).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    there have been a few conversations about what our types are, and each time it has ended with him saying that he wants exact statistics on how many people of each type possess certain characteristics in the description (like how many ENTps pay their bills on time, keep things neat, dislike change, have very strong opinions on morality, and worry about all of the details about a future event before proceeding instead of rushing in optimistically).
    profile descriptions, while fun, should be avoided in such instances. they will prove nothing, and the stats will not show anything
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Default Re: ENTx: Se vs. Si, Fe vs. Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ENTjs need their dual to remind them that there is a very real difference between right and wrong, that they are not simply just two sides of the same coin.
    That is not the reason, ENTjs have their own ethical values.

    The main explanation for the dual-seeking function is here:

    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3660

    Transigent and implied both agreed before deciding to edit out their posts
    yeah, I wasn't really sure how to word what I was talking about... ENTjs have ethical values, but not as strongly as ISFjs. ENTjs can do something "immoral" for financial gain or with their messed up versions of Fe. I think that for me, the biggest draw Fi has is the family values. It's difficult to describe to someone who has these values if they have not lived with someone who doesn't. I recall FDG one time saying something like his mom is ISFj, and he assumed all women had morals similar to hers until he learned otherwise (I don't recall exactly how it was worded).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    there have been a few conversations about what our types are, and each time it has ended with him saying that he wants exact statistics on how many people of each type possess certain characteristics in the description (like how many ENTps pay their bills on time, keep things neat, dislike change, have very strong opinions on morality, and worry about all of the details about a future event before proceeding instead of rushing in optimistically).
    profile descriptions, while fun, should be avoided in such instances. they will prove nothing, and the stats will not show anything
    there aren't statistics for that kind of thing...
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    I agree that type descriptions are just a general idea and cannot possibly factor in individual circumstances, like having a contrary parent or a conflicting sibling or society's values or being extremely intelligent (which makes any type seem NT-ish).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    there aren't statistics for that kind of thing...
    i should have said, if there was a stat study completed, the study would not show anything. the correlations we see, are in a way, fictional.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    indeed.... I posted something earlier today in the chat quotes thread...

    <travis_d> socionics is unhealthy for most people anyways
    <vague> Yeah, I think most people become too self obsessed.
    <travis_d> what good does learning about your what your roles are "supposed to" be do? it sets limitations and expectations, neither of which is healthy... people should just "be"
    <vague> Some people do look at it that way. Others just look at it as a way of giving words to what is already naturally occurring.
    <vague> anyway, I have to go get ready. later folks.
    <meryt> cya
    |<-- vague has left irc.sorcery.net (Quit: vague)
    <travis_d> I agree and disagree with her point
    <travis_d> I don't think anyone is EXACTLY like they're type description... "should" they be?
    <travis_d> if it helps them to accept themself, yes
    <travis_d> if it messes up their life because they're looking to be a perfect "type" in an imperfect world... then perhaps not
    <meryt> well, I think Socionics is harmless and potentially a positive thing if you realise that there is a gap between theory and reality, and that Socionics will always fall short
    <travis_d> or reality will always fall short
    <meryt> and that they also realise the Socionics should serve reality, not the other way around
    <meryt> no, Socionics will always fall short
    <meryt> that is where rmcnew has it wrong
    <travis_d> it falls short only because the world is imperfect
    <meryt> but at least he realise that they will not perfectly match
    <travis_d> and it does not account for that
    <meryt> it seems that a lot of people don't get that far
    <travis_d> yeah
    <meryt> but without Socionics, they would find some other theory to be a slave to
    <travis_d> indeed
    <meryt> so there is nothing really wrong with Socionics in that respect, just with their attitude
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    my question is if socionics is inaccurate, or if it only explains a limited bit.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    depends on how you look at it, what you're expecting
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    no type description will match 100%

    some people can find arguements against every type. things like family type relations, environment, culture, brain disorders, etc can cause people to act differently than he would have growing up in an environment that was neutral or rewarded his first two functions. an INFp with healthy ESTp and INFp duals for parents will act a lot more like the stereotypical INFp than an INFp with unhealthy parents or ESTj/INFj duals for parents and an ENFp sibling...

    type descriptions are assuming that people will be rewarded for acting like that type, or in the very least, a neutral environment.

    I try to look at the contradictions within the type descriptions and try to figure out why a person of that type would act differently, and if there are logical explanations, I weigh that type as much more likely than a different type with more contradictions with less likely explanations.

    I am ENTj, I do not need acknowldgement from other ENTjs (or anyone else). The only two options are ENTp and ENTj, and ENTj has fewer unexplainable contradictions. As far as Peter's type, I will let him speak for himself. I will say, however, that he does not agree with me.
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