Why is TiNe type j in socionics but p in MBTI? INTj and INTP

[Saberstorm]

Why is the Ti/Ne type called a "J" or judger in socionics, but is called a "P" in the MBTI?

I might be one of these Ti/Ne types. What would my J-ness look like?

[WVBRY]

http://www.socionics.com/articles/intjorintp.htm

[The Ineffable]

The Socionics theory is different from MBTI, the same goes for both functions and types. In Socionics, if the primary function is Logic or Ethics (the corresponding Jungian functions Thinking and respectively Feeling), then the type is Rational (sometimes marked as "j"). If it is the other two kinds of IEs (Information Elements), Intuition and Sensing, then the type is Irrational ("p"). Note that the definitions of these terms and their properties, although at times having things in common, are not the same thing.

[Cat King Cole]

Why is the Ti/Ne type called a "J" or judger in socionics, but is called a "P" in the MBTI?

I might be one of these Ti/Ne types. What would my J-ness look like?

Rationality and irrationality is one of the more questionable dichotomies. At its core, it just describes whether your dominant function is rational or irrational.

http://socionist.blogspot.com/2007/0...tionality.html
http://socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml

I wouldn't be too worried if you can't see yourself fitting either side too clearly. In terms of obviousness, j/p is trumped by things like Quadra values and intertype relationships--as the socionics.com article points out.

http://www.wikisocion.org/recovered_...rrational.html

Especially if you're young, while you may be a rational type (like ), you may not act as if you had the trait of "rationality", if that makes any sense.

[krieger]

Rationality and irrationality is one of the more questionable dichotomies.

i agree. it's pretty ambiguous in my case.

[WVBRY]

I dont think its ambigous at all, its the only that matters when it comes to judging relationships. Just because you cant decide between yourself and your mirror doesnt mean the dichotomy is ambigous.

This is beyond experience.

[Cat King Cole]

Mirror requires flipping I/E though as well. The problem with j/p is that it introduces ambiguity between quasis that's just not there.

For example, talking with my mum through the dichotomy descriptions on socionics.us, I'd be a borderline ESFp/ENFp, Mum would be a moderate j, and her mother would be hyper-j.

I think j/p is a social conditioning thing, and as such, while still a part of personality, is not a reliable measure in Socionics terms, at least not until mid-late 20s, say.

There are other problems with j/p in that swapping it also, unfortunately, swaps your Id with your Ego, by making your Demonstrative your Base. It also swaps your Quadra, turning you into a quasi-identical and inverting everything you value or think unimportant.

This is simply too big a leap for "one first-tier dichotomy".

[WVBRY]

I understand what you're saying, but you're focusing on behaviors, socionics isnt about behaviors, its about cognition.

From:http://socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index.html

The criterion of rationality/irrationality deserves a special remark.
The meaning of "rationality—irrationality" in colloquial language is somewhat different from the original Jung's (and socionic) understanding of this term. The colloquial meaning of this word pair should be attributed rather to another dichotomy, logic-ethic (or T/F in the Myers-Briggs theory).
Although the J/P criterion in the Myers-Briggs theory resembles rationality-irrationality by its description, it's not the same. As it was proved by Gregory Shulman, J/P is not dichotomy (i.e. it does not split the 16 socionic types into 2 equal parts). It is a pseudo-dichotomy that represents two poles with multiple transitional options; in other words, one or two types in socionics may be called "super-J", and another one or two types "super-P", while other types tend more or less to one of these poles. This explains, for example, why ENFP or ENFJ in socionics may both get scored ENFP according to MBTI, etc.
One more remark: according to I.Myers' hypothesis, rationals correcpond to EJ and IP, while irrationals to EP and IJ. However, Isabel Myers herself wrote that her hypothesis somewhat contradicts to the result of her test, i.e., the J/P description does not work well for introverts. On the other hand, statistical researches of parallel testing of people by socionic methods and by Keirsey Temperament Sorter (online version) does not agree with her hypothesis and speaks rather in favor of identification of J/P with rationality/irrationality (although not 100%, as it was said above).
Such nature of J/P criterion sometimes causes funny mismatches. For example, the descriptions of ESFP and ESFJ according to D.Keirsey match well with the corresponding socionic types, while their descriptions according to Kroeger and Thuesen match rather reversely: i.e., Kroeger's ESFP correlates better with the socionic ESFJ, and Kroeger's ESFJ with the socionic ESFP.

You've probably never read a def or rationality/irrationality that is good. Id be happy to provide one, if youd like.

[Cat King Cole]

Sure, shoot.

[WVBRY]

Irrationals are motivated into action based upon changes in a situation. Rationals are motivated into action based upon their own decisions resulting from the changes in a situation.

[Cat King Cole]

Awesome

[WVBRY]

Thanks

[The Ineffable]

Irrationals are motivated into action based upon changes in a situation. Rationals are motivated into action based upon their own decisions resulting from the changes in a situation.

That's true, that is actual Socionics Schizotim/Cyclotim, a lot of other (wrong) things are borrowed by people along the time from MBTI. I'd add that Schizotims have an attitude over their (or others') attitude, while Cyclotims an attitude oriented towards the things directly - something like that. Rationals approach everything with some sort of premeditation, they tend to consider everything that happens as a consequence of one's action/inaction, it doesn't just happen. Aushra wrote (cyclo = p, shizo = j in the translation):

Why cyclothymia seem impulsive, and CG Jung called even irrational? Because of their movement, behavior and emotions are always a consequence of some feelings, a certain state of mind. The answer to the emerging sense of comfort, discomfort, serenity or uncertainty. Cyclothymia internally before swinging, and only then react to a situation or emotion act. The emotions and actions of others they did not immediately respond. More precisely - not react to their actions and emotions, and actions caused by these feelings. Therefore, their reaction would be as slow, smooth, very adapted to the situation, but not pre-thought out, "creative". Many actions simply "out of habit", under the established guidelines. Shizotimy react to the emotion of the emotion, the act of an act not swayed at once. React very sensibly, thoughtfully, on the basis of past experience. Therefore seem to be more stringent, resolute, "rational" and their movements faster and more angular, sharper, and the emotions are cold. Feeling for shizotima - a consequence of the act, rather than its cause: after proper action or emotion feel better is good, after an incorrect action it worsens. Therefore, as the actions and forms of manifestation of emotion and to think carefully studied. If shizotimy feel bad, they think that it was not done so, dig into the past to have experience in the future. When cyclothymia feel bad, they think not about the past and the future: what should be done to change the mood.

In cyclothymia actions are impulsive, are nothing but as soon as an adaptation to the real situation and their own feelings. We can say that cyclotron works when he needs to get out of some situation, some states, but shizotim - on the contrary, when you need to create some sort of state, a sort of feeling. For example, the cyclotron cooks to do away with the unpleasant feeling of hunger, shizotim - that as a result of their activity to get a pleasant feeling of satiety (cyclotome eat because tasty shizotim - even when it is gourmet - to be satiated). Interestingly, the hunger for cyclothymia mood reflects much more than the mood shizotima: hungry shizotim can calmly wait longer than the cyclotron.

But in dealing with the subjects and objects is reversed. As a cyclotron can not act until it was seized by any sense, so shizotim can not communicate with the person until he does not feel to it some sense, until there was some kind of setting. Without such a facility or mature feelings, he can not buy even the simplest everyday objects. Occurs the same "swinging." Cyclothymia communication start without a "swing", ie without plants, with direct contacts, in which people and their quality are carefully studied. Only then will appear to install and feelings that define their relationship. Therefore, although the contact with people cyclotome ties quickly, they do not say anything about his feelings for him. How shizotim easy, "rational" behavior and is changing its form of manifestation of emotion, if they are not reasonable, because cyclotron "rational" changes people, with whom he communicates, if they do not match their qualities to their needs. The same applies to household items and other objects.