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    Default Ignoring Function

    .
    Last edited by Vois; 06-06-2014 at 06:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    Te: It would be most efficient for me to do A, then B.

    Ti: The rules dictates that you do B first.

    Te: So what? This way is more efficient, which is more important than following a flawed rule.


    Ti: Put all the working materials in their proper location when finished using them.

    Te: It would be more efficient to leave them out, so that you don't have to get them out again tomorrow.

    Ti: I don't care. They need to be put where they belong.
    Excellent example, although a bit Te-biased. This is going in my personal toolkit, which I will need shortly at work to fight newly established rules and procedures that imho accomplish exactly the opposite from what our company wants to accomplish (i.e. more customer satisfaction).

    ETA: I think this actually extends beyond the ignoring function, and is more a reflection of quadra values.
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    I love these!

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    It is VERY important for an Fi type to be a support in a friendship as with any relationship. Relationships are our close network and why we are social. These are excellent; thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    Se: The clothing from that store is of higher quality than that store over there.

    Si: So? They're both just as comfortable.

    Se: I don't care. Quality is more important than comfort.



    Si: I love this couch - it's so comfy.

    Se: That couch is horribly ugly and the fabric is falling apart.

    Si: So? The point of a couch is to be comfy, not look good!


    Ne: Let's build a new icon for teens to help with bad self image!

    Ni: That won't do any good - the current prevailing icon is too powerful.

    Ne: So what? That doesn't mean it's impossible!



    Ni: Political leaders have almost always been corrupt - that won't change.

    Ne: Why not? It's perfectly possible for that to change.

    Ni: Sure, but it's not going to happen.


    Feel free to edit, criticize, completely tear this apart, etc... (and yeah, these convos sound rather unnatural, but that's not really the point)
    I like everything else, but have a small issue with sensing and a bigger one with N. Si dominant may be very interested in the way things appear, as visual stimuli may have a strong affect on their physical state. I can see where you're coming from though, Si = internal comfort and Se may be more concerned with impressiveness or what have you.

    With N, Ne is the the function that is more concerned with the objective realization of ideas in the physical world given its external focus (given the addition of making justifiable connections between thoughts and ideas, which would not take place in the physical world and serves to give the stereotype of impracticality/unreality, but since that is not in the example given we will ignore this aspect), and would be more prone to point out the improbability of any course of action than Ni, since Ni is unconcerned with objective realization of ideas and the like (hence their internal worlds and symbolism). What you're drawing on here is something that is commonly associated with Ni, and perhaps justifiably so, best represented in this wikisocion quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion ILI page View Post
    Likewise, the ILI's sense of self doubt leads him to be very conservative in his general outlook; why unnecessarily subject oneself to the uncertainty of possible disappointment?
    Ultimately, in the N example, I would say you could justify the words said functionally for going both ways. Both Ns are equally likely to take either of those positions based on different functionally valued aspects. However, the aspects you are trying to communicate are no doubt probability of occurrence and possibility, and I mean to say that probability lies more in the realm of Ne, with possibility falling in both Ns.
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    Cool based on this, I'm totally on board with , absolutely despise the hell out of , pretty split on the Ns (I don't see as this pessimistic on average, and seems a bit more paranoid and messy to me on average than in the examples; both are pretty correct though), and pretty split on the Fs, with an edge towards ...

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    Si vs Se: I'd rather have carpet than marble floor. Sure, marble shows off how rich and successful you are, but at the end of the day you have to walk on it, and it's cold and hard and makes the living room look like a museum, not like where someone actually lives.

    Ti isn't exclusively rules-based to the detriment of efficiency, either. Ti will approach efficiency from the perspective of reason: what's the optimal strategy? I'll think it through ahead of time based on what I know.

    Also, in general, Je vs Ji determines how much information a person needs before they're comfortable reaching a conclusion. Credit to Jonathan for bringing this up.

    As such, Fe vs Fi:

    There might be some redeeming quality to Bob. I'm not comfortable writing him off as an asshole just yet. Also, while I may have frequent fights with Bill, that doesn't reflect what I think of him as a person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    It is VERY important for an Fi type to be a support in a friendship as with any relationship. Relationships are our close network and why we are social. These are excellent; thank you.
    Just what you say here makes it very clear to me that I ignore this function and find it irritating. You guys always sound so damn sweet and sugar coat everything, yuck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    It is VERY important for an Fi type to be a support in a friendship as with any relationship. Relationships are our close network and why we are social. These are excellent; thank you.
    Just what you say here makes it very clear to me that I ignore this function and find it irritating. You guys always sound so damn sweet and sugar coat everything, yuck.
    Hell yeah we do!

    seems messy, unimportant, and confusing for me much of the time; why should I pay so much attention to something that's just going to change in about an hour or so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post

    Just what you say here makes it very clear to me that I ignore this function and find it irritating. You guys always sound so damn sweet and sugar coat everything, yuck.
    Hell yeah we do!
    I don't!
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    Vois, you wouldn't happen to be a delta would you?

    It is apparent that you have a much better understanding of Fi/Te and Si/Ne than Ti/Fe and Ni/Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    I actually don't know my type. When I read the quadra descriptions, I always lean toward Beta (and sometimes alpha), am opposed to Gamma, and don't have a very strong opinion of Delta - but that could just be that the quadra descriptions aren't very good/realistic. The functions I understand the easiest are: Te, Fi, Si, and Fe, and I'm starting to grasp Ni now as well. I think that may just have to do having read good descriptions of those functions. Every time I read an Se description, it says something different from what I've read previously, so I never know what to think of that one... lol. I was actually kinda guessing with the Ne, but I'm glad my guess was convincing!
    Now that I think about it, my inclination to see you as delta had more to do with how favorably you depicted various functions than with how accurately you depicted functions. In your examples, I felt that the Si, Ne, Te, and Fi attitudes were depicted in a way that made them seem objectively more reasonable (irrespective of one's type) than the Se, Ni, Ti, and Fe attitudes. I'd expect this of from a Delta, but not a Beta. Assuming you're a beta, perhaps you were trying so hard not to let your functional preferences skew your examples that you unintentionally let reverse bias slip in.

    As far as accuracy goes, a measly six sentences juxtaposing the E and I variants of each judging and perception function will necessarily fail to comprehensively capture the essence of the functions. However, given the brevity of your examples, I think you've done a reasonably good job with Ti/Te and Fi/Fe but feel the P function examples leave something to be to desired. My gamma-centric bias may have much to do with my assessment of quality, so take take it with a grain of salt.

    Thanks for creating this thread. The concept was clever, and I enjoyed reading.

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    [quote=Vois;792836]
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    ??? I never claimed to be "comprehensively capturing the essence of the functions."
    I wasn't trying to imply that you had made any such claim. I was just soap-boxing. Pardon me and my love for tangents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    Te: It would be most efficient for me to do A, then B.

    Ti: The rules dictates that you do B first.

    Te: So what? This way is more efficient, which is more important than following a flawed rule.


    Ti: Put all the working materials in their proper location when finished using them.

    Te: It would be more efficient to leave them out, so that you don't have to get them out again tomorrow.

    Ti: I don't care. They need to be put where they belong.
    I protest.

    Now seriously, put a reason behind Ti too, they don't pull the rules out of their ass. In the second example, use something like:
    - "Ti: Let's place the materials inside, we finished."
    - "Te: Let's leave them here for efficiency, no one is gonna steal them."
    - "Ti: I don't care, we want to prevent that regardless." (security rule)

    "Where they belong" doesn't make any sense and has no logical premises, so it can't be Ti, it's rather Fi. Saying Ti follows rules for their sake is like saying Te works for the sake of working.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    Sorry (is this smiley supposed to be rolling its eyes or what? that's not what I'm using it for anyways)
    I know their rules usually (like, almost always, with the exception of the crazy ones) make sense, I just didn't try hard enough to think of one that did. This was just a rough draft though!
    Rejected! The law states that you'll suffer the consequences of your actions. I'm sorry, but I can't do anything for you...


    You may use my example, if you want. I thought about Ti-Ignoring like:
    - "Te: Let's leave the materials outside, in the morning we'll get to wok faster."
    - "Ti: We need to put them inside so they don't get stolen."
    - "Te: That's not required, no one is coming this way at night." (practical fact)

    BTW, very good idea with these exemplifications in order to understand the Ignoring function, I will look into the others, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    You may use my example, if you want. I thought about Ti-Ignoring like:
    - "Te: Let's leave the materials outside, in the morning we'll get to wok faster."
    - "Ti: We need to put them inside so they don't get stolen."
    - "Te: That's not required, no one is coming this way at night." (practical fact)
    I like this Te/Ti example, but it involves a bit of Ne/Ni as well and therefore suits alpha Ti vs. gamma Te better.
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    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    You may use my example, if you want. I thought about Ti-Ignoring like:
    - "Te: Let's leave the materials outside, in the morning we'll get to wok faster."
    - "Ti: We need to put them inside so they don't get stolen."
    - "Te: That's not required, no one is coming this way at night." (practical fact)
    I like this Te/Ti example, but it involves a bit of Ne/Ni as well and therefore suits alpha Ti vs. gamma Te better.
    I like them a lot too, and for obvious reasons, I didn't see anything off about them myself

    That's why I see as paranoid - who the hell is going to go around busting their ass to such extremes, just to steal a few tools? They're heavy! Was there even a track record of thefts leading up to now to justify the paranoia? There's better things to steal than tools... money, jewelry, precious metals inside of car parts... lots of things inside of cars, for that matter, including the car itself...

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    I like this Te/Ti example, but it involves a bit of Ne/Ni as well and therefore suits alpha Ti vs. gamma Te better.
    I see how it can be interpreted that way, thinking of some some isolated place or where criminality is practically non-existent so one just makes that possibility up based on what ifs. But you may change stealing for something else (eg raining), the idea is not that you actually *feel* someone will steal from you (or that it will rain), it's irrelevant if it's gonna happen tonight or not, but in principle it can happen anytime, and that principle must be respected. Not sure about SLEs, but I see a LSI very likely to do this. Zealous law enforcement (identification, checkpoints, body searching) sounds again more Beta ST than Alpha NT, IMO.
    ---

    @woofwoofl: you're wrong, that has nothing to do with Ne or anticipation. Stalin was neither Ne nor paranoid, he was simply getting rid of any possible political resistence, which in theory could ruin the system. You in fact project and guess way too much about people's motivation, which is rather Ne than Se. You don't even know what materials one is talking about and start making guesses about their value and weight. What if the material were gold?
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    Example 1

    : "Mr says 1+1=3, but obviously 1+1=2"
    : "Mr is THE MAN, you must be wrong"

    Example 2

    : "Why don't you go to the beach?"
    : "It's boring, dirty and uncomfortable"
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    Example 3

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    : "I haven't watched it, but I read the book"
    : ...
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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    @woofwoofl: you're wrong, that has nothing to do with Ne or anticipation. Stalin was neither Ne nor paranoid, he was simply getting rid of any possible political resistence, which in theory could ruin the system. You in fact project and guess way too much about people's motivation, which is rather Ne than Se. You don't even know what materials one is talking about and start making guesses about their value and weight. What if the material were gold?
    Golden tools! yeah - someone's really gonna use golden tools at a worksite!

    I'm gonna be as generous as humanly possible and say that a few things that are meant to conduct electricity might have an extremely thin coat of gold plating on them, but not enough to make the theft markedly more worthwhile than if they didn't have the gold plating... golden tools wouldn't be cost effective, or work effective, or any sort of effective - they would bend under light stress, they would be extremely heavy... there would be no golden tools at the worksite...

    How would my reasoning be devoid of /? Almost all of it's based on a disproportionate amount of force being used to steal the tools (going to the worksite and moving the tools away from the worksite), for the value of the tools themselves; it would be much easier to run off with something lighter and more valuable... you're the one that plopped in these perpetrators that I never thought of in the first place, much less analyzed their motives (that would be impossible)...

    Why did you drag Stalin into this? I said that I saw as paranoid, not that paranoia is a thing that happens due only to only and never to ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Golden tools! ... yeah - someone's really gonna use golden tools at a worksite!

    I'm gonna be as generous as humanly possible and say that a few things that are meant to conduct electricity might have an extremely thin coat of gold plating on them, but not enough to make the theft markedly more worthwhile than if they didn't have the gold plating... golden tools wouldn't be cost effective, or work effective, or any sort of effective - they would bend under light stress, they would be extremely heavy... there would be no golden tools at the worksite...

    How would my reasoning be devoid of /? Almost all of it's based on a disproportionate amount of force being used to steal the tools (going to the worksite and moving the tools away from the worksite), for the value of the tools themselves; it would be much easier to run off with something lighter and more valuable... you're the one that plopped in these perpetrators that I never thought of in the first place, much less analyzed their motives (that would be impossible)...
    Tools? Electricity? Gold plating? Disproportionate force? What the hell are you talking about? You built a whole story around something hilariously simple, señor de la Mancha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Golden tools! ... yeah - someone's really gonna use golden tools at a worksite!

    I'm gonna be as generous as humanly possible and say that a few things that are meant to conduct electricity might have an extremely thin coat of gold plating on them, but not enough to make the theft markedly more worthwhile than if they didn't have the gold plating... golden tools wouldn't be cost effective, or work effective, or any sort of effective - they would bend under light stress, they would be extremely heavy... there would be no golden tools at the worksite...

    How would my reasoning be devoid of /? Almost all of it's based on a disproportionate amount of force being used to steal the tools (going to the worksite and moving the tools away from the worksite), for the value of the tools themselves; it would be much easier to run off with something lighter and more valuable... you're the one that plopped in these perpetrators that I never thought of in the first place, much less analyzed their motives (that would be impossible)...
    Tools? Electricity? Gold plating? Disproportionate force? What the hell are you talking about? You built a whole story around something hilariously simple, señor de la Mancha.
    The tools would be the working materials Vois referred to.

    If there's a concern about someone going off and taking the working materials, then it's almost certainly an open worksite, like the construction of a building, or a road, etc.; this would mean the most effective materials to steal would be the tools; not the concrete, not the asphalt, not the steel girders, not the drywall, not any of these things which would be worth far less, pound by pound, and therefore be less worthwhile to steal, than the tools themselves.

    As for the gold, the odds are extremely low that a huge amount of gold would be a part of any of this, and if it was, then that conversation almost certainly wouldn't be happening; proper security measures should be in place. The most likely place for gold to be would probably be in the tools themselves, and it wouldn't be enough to matter anyways...

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    Nice novel, but it is unrelated to my point.
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    Regarding Te VS Ti ignoring, I recall a recent discussion I had with my gf. There were some scandals in the USA involving the TSA procedures, people got anal because of different ideas, such as allegedly children or oldies should not be checked. Rules are rules, they don't pick, no one gives a shit whether the kid actually carries explosives or not. There's no such thing as "fact" using Ti, there's only reason, reasons are virtual and when they exist (1), they need to be taken into consideration: you don't need to find one kid actually carrying explosives(2), he *can* actually carry them (3), therefore it's irrelevant whether that's based on facts or not.
    ---

    (1) - acknowledged and making logical sense;
    (2) - any kind of suspicion is not applicable, however the opponents of this reasoning (usually Fi Egos) are making this claim, such as "have I done anything wrong?", "why am I suspected of wrongdoing?". Then the answer comes: "You have absolutely nothing to be concerned of Madam, no one is suspecting you of anything, this is necessary a routine check." Which in fact is damn obvious, Miss TiPolr.
    (3) - technically valid justification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Nice novel, but it is unrelated to my point.
    Not unrelated at all - this entire exchange is a perfect example of Decisive vs. Judicious.

    The example was linked to the motivation of hypothetical people, and therefore ; it would have to be, because the working materials wouldn't wander off by themselves (unless a construction vehicle was left on the slope of a steep hill and the emergency brake failed).

    This is a lot of why I see , as well as the absence of , to be paranoid; the future isn't forecast as something locked into place to some degree, when looking at things from that perspective; everything's one big, mad free-for-all...

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    In terms of Ni ignoring, uhm, Ni-tinged information tends to come off as grammatically incomprehensible to me. Like there's supposed to be some sort of meaning to it, but I just can't parse it for the life of me. I have to consciously sit down and go through it word by word, then rearrange the words in a way that makes sense to me. I don't think this is so much characteristic of Ni ignoring as it is just unvalued Ni in general.
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