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Thread: CPT - 99 Failed experiment of typing

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    Default CPT - 99 Failed experiment of typing

    This is a bad news for all of you(I talking about English - language forum. For the rest's Russian-language socionists - it is not a news. It is a well known fact)
    The covergence of the results of independent group of the socionists on 1999 - about 30%. That is very bad for all of you and for socionic itself.
    And remember! You! All of you - must to do something that will improve the situation in socionics.
    Remember: no convergence - no science!
    So by the way: Here is an original article:
    http://www.socio.dp.ua/newspaper/1999/strez1/



    Translaion taken from google - Translator:

    Experiment showed that CPT-99

    Vladimir L. Pavlov, NL Low, IE Semencha,
    VI Gudramovich, SE Petsold (Dnepropetrovsk)

    Experiment showed that CPT-99

    From 24 to April 28, 1999 in Dnepropetrovsk experiment was conducted by comparing the results tipoopredeleniya (CPT) for various socionists. The experiment was conducted within the framework of international scientific-practical conference "Socionics and social technologies in the XXI Century", which became one of the biggest meetings socionic 90s {1}.

    The experiment involved 43 experts from Zaporozhye, Kiev, Kharkov, Donetsk, Moscow, Lviv, Kremenchug, Yekaterinburg, St. Petersburg, Feodosia, Dneprodzerzhinsk and Dnipropetrovsk. Five of the experts expressed their desire to speak to the results published under pseudonyms, and the rest - under their own names. It was recorded two indivisible team (the first of two, the second of five), whose members are involved only in the K-experiment, respectively, these groups always registered as a tipirovschik. Therefore, the totals are the results of 38 tipirovschikov. In addition, recorded another indivisible group, but its members have participated in the K, and in and experiments.

    The average age was 31 years tipirovschikov, the youngest age tipirovschik was 18 years old, while the maximum age was 64 years. Distribution by age groups is shown in Table 1.



    All members of CPT-99 had higher or incomplete higher education (see Table 2).



    The average experience of employment practice typing participants in the experiment was approximately 4.4 years (see Table 3).


    40% tipirovschikov had at the time of the experiment published in Socionics (see Table 4), 55% tipirovschikov (24 of 43) had the experience of typing on a commercial basis.



    It is interesting that one in five members of CPT-99, considered himself the ILE, and almost half (44%) - logical and intuitive (see Table 5).



    On average, each tipirovschik participated in 7 PPTI {4}. In all 13 participants only PPTI Gorbunov (Dnepropetrovsk), Ermakov (Kiev) and D. Mamrak (Dnepropetrovsk). In 12 PPTI attended Kate Semenova (pseudonym), Kiev-2 (indivisible group of five socionists of Zaporozhye), V. Garashchuk (Dnepropetrovsk). Others tipirovschiki participated in fewer PPTI.



    Comment for those who are not familiar with the methodology of the experiment.
    ... Methodology of CPT-99 was discussed in detail for almost a year before the actual experiment. The discussion was attended by a large number of socionists from Ukraine, Russia, Baltic countries, UK and USA. The most interesting proposals have been published in the pages of "socionic readings" - was published 29 articles by various authors, which discussed the upcoming event.
    In the end, it was decided to conduct an experiment on a series-parallel circuit in the form of so-called PPTI. In short, the idea was that each tipiruemogo during PPTI interviewed 4 groups tipirovschikov. These groups were combined into two pairs. With respect to each other, these couples have worked (interviewed) in succession, one after another, and within the group interviewed couples in parallel (at the same time, being in the same room
    {2}). Each group participated in the first interview, and after its completion were determined by individual experts socionists version, and then the group dispersed in different rooms, discussed and worked out a collective tipiruemogo version.
    Thus, for each of tipiruemyh recorded a number of individual versions and 4 collective (group).

    To control the correctness of the experiment and the observance of the claimed method was organized by the Supervisory Board, which, apart from some well-known socionists from different cities, went in and completely independent observers "to" {3}.

    Full text of the techniques of the experiment CPT-99 can be found in N 3-99 "socionic readings" or on the web page of our newspapers ...



    As an experiment performed on tipiruemyh university students of Dnepropetrovsk, aged 18 to 23 years. The median age was slightly more than 20 years. Of the 13 subjects were 6 male and 7 - female.

    Each subject participated in one PPTI, during which conducted two interviews. In an interview attended by 5 to 18 tipirovschikov, the average number socionists during the interview was 12.

    The experiment was carried out 13 (the number of subjects) and to the series-parallel typological identification (PPTI), during which the act was carried out 273 individual expert evaluation. In 266 cases the results of expert evaluation of individual tipirovschikami formulated version of Tim the subject, and in 7 cases received tipirovschikami information was insufficient to formulate conclusions about Tim test.

    During the experiment, only one of PPTI 13 was I-convergence of {5}, only 3 were PPTI K-convergence of {6}. Average convergence was 31% (see Table 6, due to the large size - 37 K - she moved to separate file), and the average number of versions of the test Thieme - 7.5.

    Here and below, the value of convergence is the ratio of experts "voted" for the most popular version, the total number of experts, typed the individual concerned. For example, if there is nobody on the X to be 2 versions of the ESE, a version of OR, 4 versions of the FEL, 5 versions of the ILE and a judge refrained from expressing versions, the convergence of the results for X to be 5 / (2 +1 +4 +5 +1) = 0.38 = 38%.

    Each of the 13 subjects during the experiment, participated in 2 different interviews that were conducted simultaneously by 2 different groups of experts (in total - four of the expert group on one of the interviewee). It is interesting to assess the convergence within groups of experts were based on the same information about tipiruemom, that is participating in an interview. These groups was 26, only 4 of them observed the I-convergence (more than half of the experts independently came at once to the same opinion.) Average convergence of these 26 groups was 38% tipirovschikov.

    Many are interested in the convergence of the scales. Relevant data {7} are shown in Table 8.




    Please note that the minimum possible convergence on the scale - 50% - this is when exactly half of the experts chose one pole of the scale, and the second - on the other. In fact, there is no convergence in this case. Therefore, tsifra60% is extremely low!

    It is interesting to see the convergence of the versions of the square. It turned out to be 41% and was only 2 and-match out of 13. That is, only 2 of 13 tipiruemyh more than half the experts socionists independently came to the same opinion about the quadra to which the examinee.

    In addition to the Blocks, you can look at the other four types. For example, clubs. Take socion (16 TIMov) and share it on the 4 groups of 4 TIM with the two scales: the logic of ethics and intuition-sensing. Then analyze the number of "votes" cast tipirovschikami for membership of the test to a particular club. Here the convergence of the better - 51%. Accordingly, 6 I-matches out of 13.

    Similarly, you can break into fours socion TIMov many different ways, and in each case, the convergence of view. The most interesting result of the analysis of convergence in groups, formation of the division socion scales extraversion-introversion and logic-ethics. For 12 out of 13 subjects more than half of them typed socionists immediately and independently came to similar conclusions about which of the groups described belongs to the subject. In other words, we can say that for 12 out of 13 subjects were recorded and versions of the subject's affiliation to one of the fours TIMov. Average convergence here is 60%.

    Can these data be interpreted so that "during the experiment, the convergence of the observed half - two of the 4 scales?" Perhaps, in some ways, yes. Why is "in some way?" Because just about remember the words that "if the sturgeon is the second freshness, it means that it is rotten!" ...



    During the break, the last day of the conference a meeting of the Supervisory Board of the experiment, which, in particular, has been drawn up and signed the act of summing up the CPT-99. The instrument recorded the main results of the experiment, as well as the fact that CPT-99 was conducted in full accordance with the claimed method, without any of its violations.

    In the ensuing discussion, and members of the Supervisory Board, and most nerazehavshihsya the last day of the conference were unanimous in several areas:

    1. In the coming years is to refrain from commercial use socionic methods (first of all - based on interviews by tipoopredelenii)
    and
    concentrate on research.
    2. Zafiksipovannaya in Quaternary ekspepimenta ~ 30% although convergence chpezvychaynomala, but it is not accidental - it is much higher than that of an arbitrary DURING Choice ekspeptnogo Industry solutions about Tim test. In particular, if we calculate the average probability that a given distribution on the number of experts, to define each type, does not differ from uniform (on criterion A2), this value is less than 0.005 (estimated AM El'yashevich). This gives reason to hope for "better future" Socionics.

    It should be noted that the increase in the number of participants in the experiment would have caused, most likely, only a decrease in the average convergence. To illustrate this idea enough to take the situation in Kiev, where very famous Socionics - A. Boukalov, V. Gulenko, Ermakov, I. Kaganets, A. Salnikov, G. Schulman - still can not come to one opinion, even on Timahoe EACH OTHER! And yet each of them by not only dozens of articles and books on Socionics!

    Many members of CPT-99 drew attention to the difficulties that occur at the collective agreement versions, when it was necessary to develop a consensus, the final version. Sometimes it came to a very heated debate. And this despite the fact that very often advertised as Socionics "science communication, understanding and agreement" ...

    The lack of a common language - the key problem of today's Socionics, a decision which can be produced only in a series of experiments similar to CPT. For new activities of this kind, of course, do not wait until the next conference in April 2002 N 5-99 "socionic readings" was published several articles on the idea of ​​creating obschesotsionicheskogo Information Center, designed for centralized collection, processing information hraneniyai of experiments compared the results of typing. Since issue commercial certification socionists understandably lost its relevance, then discussed the information center are only a research and coordination functions, which can take Edition "socionic readings." Accordingly, all matters relating to the holding of local CPT-field experiments, {8}, please refer directly to the editors.



    ... In January of 1999. VL Pavlov conducted a micro-experiment in a way similar to CPT-99. In connection with the loss of old scores, he walked in Dnepropetrovsk 7 private specialized firms {9}, and always asked him to make a diagnosis of and prescription. In several of the firms he had (of course, for an additional fee) diagnosis of the computer, allegedly 100% accurate and objective. As a result, there was not a single pair of firms, which would be discharged the same recipes. With that, the difference was not only in the strength of lenses {10}, but even in the distance between the pupils, which, according to some recipes, varied within a month to nearly half an inch ...

    Modern disease Socionics, in essence, a manifestation of the common diseases of our society, and it is hoped that as the stabilization and improvement of the situation in the former Soviet Union similar tendencies are observed in socionic movement.



    # It was attended by more than 80 socionists from 17 cities of the former Soviet Union (including from Dnepropetrovsk - about 40 people). [<<<]
    # The experiment was conducted in the classrooms of Dnepropetrovsk branch of the Ukrainian Academy of Public Administration under the President of Ukraine, which was one of the co-organizers of the project. [<<<]
    # For example, AA Zabludovsky - President of the Union of the Dnepropetrovsk managers, VK Eselsky - director of the House of Scientists, Dnepropetrovsk, and several others. In addition, the Supervisory Board consisting of members of the organizing committee of the experiment, carried out the executive functions.
    [<<<]
    # PPTI - parallel to serial typological identification. PPTI consisted of two consecutive 45-minute interview with the subject and then debate its TIM in the four groups. [<<<]
    # In other words, only one of the 13 subjects interviewed, more than half its socionists independently came to the same conclusion about it Tim. [<<<]
    # In other words, only three of 13 subjects at least three of the four groups socionists discussing the subject, independently came to similar conclusions about its collective Thieme. [<<<]
    # It is interesting to note that almost similar ranking scale for consistency of results was obtained by various tipirovschikov O. Nazarko (Dnepropetrovsk) by analysis of protocols ranking tournaments of the School of 2P-typing system. These results were reported by A. Nazarko in April 1998 on socionic conference held in Kiev by "meeting place" and magazine "Socion." [<<<]
    # Including, on receipt of the methodical, informational and organizational support. [<<<]
    # In general - the most publicized and expensive. [<<<]
    # This difference sometimes reaches one diopter in accuracy (the accuracy with which prescriptions) 0.25 diopters. [<<<]
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    if the point was that there is very little convergence among the typings of supposed socionics experts, this is old news on this forum too. it has been a topic of many discussions here already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    if the point was that there is very little convergence among the typings of supposed socionics experts, this is old news on this forum too. it has been a topic of many discussions here already.
    Really? So then you, all of you - must refresh your memory, because behaviour of lots of members of this forum - are the same if they could not knew about that.
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Blada, blada, blada. I have learned that there's no point in learning Russian socionics 'cause all they have is math and mumbo jumbo. Western socionics is the truth.

    All hail Western Socionics!

    ESTj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Overall convergence is too primitive a statistical tool. What they should be doing is looking for groupings of raters. Use something like factor analysis, multidimensional scaling, etc., to identify what schools exist.

    And everybody should be more explicit about their definitions, how they're typing, and why.

    They key question when using type ideas is What are you typing? What aspects of the person's behavior are you applying type ideas to? And what are your definitions?

    If what one person calls Fi, someone else calls Fe, well of course they're going to type people differently.

    They should be testing multiple assessment techniques to see which ones best predict intertype relationships. Probably some will do equally well but type people differently (e.g., in one system, everybody who's Alpha is Gamma in the other system).

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    Yaaroslav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Blada, blada, blada. I have learned that there's no point in learning Russian socionics 'cause all they have is math and mumbo jumbo. Western socionics is the truth.

    All hail Western Socionics!
    It was just your pathetic IMHO

    PS:
    You have very little Index of credibility, if all you can do with mathematics - it is knit.
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Blada, blada, blada. I have learned that there's no point in learning Russian socionics 'cause all they have is math and mumbo jumbo. Western socionics is the truth.

    All hail Western Socionics!
    It was just your pathetic IMHO

    PS:
    You have very little Index of credibility, if all you can do with mathematics - it is knit.
    I have a pathetic IMHO? I have a pathetic opinion? In your opinion I'm pathetic? How do you expect to experiment on the knowledge of English-speakers if you don't even know the language?

    That's not all I do with it. It's just what I use it the most for. You probably have no idea how much math is involved in making up one's own pattern as one knits and having the glove fit when it's done. You probably don't even know how to knit.

    ESTj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Yaaroslav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Overall convergence is too primitive a statistical tool. What they should be doing is looking for groupings of raters. Use something like factor analysis, multidimensional scaling, etc., to identify what schools exist.

    And everybody should be more explicit about their definitions, how they're typing, and why.

    They key question when using type ideas is What are you typing? What aspects of the person's behavior are you applying type ideas to? And what are your definitions?

    If what one person calls Fi, someone else calls Fe, well of course they're going to type people differently.

    They should be testing multiple assessment techniques to see which ones best predict intertype relationships. Probably some will do equally well but type people differently (e.g., in one system, everybody who's Alpha is Gamma in the other system).
    Very well! I see you motivated good - so now go on this page and http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...955#post790955
    Solve these tasks!
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post

    It was just your pathetic IMHO

    PS:
    You have very little Index of credibility, if all you can do with mathematics - it is knit.
    I have a pathetic IMHO? I have a pathetic opinion? In your opinion I'm pathetic? How do you expect to experiment on the knowledge of English-speakers if you don't even know the language?

    That's not all I do with it. It's just what I use it the most for. You probably have no idea how much math is involved in making up one's own pattern as one knits and having the glove fit when it's done. You probably don't even know how to knit.
    Okay. I just will do not listening you in this theme. Go to your knits - and do your own business...
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...955#post790955
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    30% convergence, in and of itself, doesn't alarm or worry me too much - do people get often typed as their Mirrors? Look-a-likes? Comparatives? Quasi-identicals? Duals? Do people get consistently placed in the same quadra? Which Reinins show the most consistency?

    Here's a table I found in the article:


    Anyways, as long as someone's getting something useful out of the system, I'm happy I don't mind inconsistencies; I expect them to be minor and predictable, despite their frequency...

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Here's a table I found in the article:
    Where's the raw data? The presentations and conclusions did not seem very informative.
    Greetings, ragnar
    ILI knowledge-seeker

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    Heh, seems like we have a future victim of forum hatred.

    I offer you "BOUNTY WAY"!!

    http://www.happylife.kiev.ua/bounty_en.html
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    I see the members of this forum behaviour themselves as they don't know about this problem of socionics. So It is time to refresh them their memory!!!
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    I can't read Russian, and the machine-translated text is difficult to read.

    It seems to me someone has done an experiment that demonstrates that the typing processes in use are inconsistent and unreliable, and also indicates that the types really exist.

    Can anyone provide a simple and concise summary of the experiment, along with the raw data?
    Last edited by ragnar; 07-14-2011 at 05:37 PM. Reason: make post more concise, add request
    Greetings, ragnar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
    I can't read Russian, and the machine-translated text is difficult to read.

    It seems to me someone has done an experiment that demonstrates that the typing processes in use are inconsistent and unreliable, and also indicates that the types really exist.

    Can anyone provide a simple and concise summary of the experiment, along with the raw data?
    I have find more informal article
    http://www.socionic.ru/index.php/-99/715-----99
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Experiment showed that CPT-99

    From 24 to April 28, 1999 in Dnepropetrovsk experiment was conducted by comparing the results tipoopredeleniya (CPT) for various socionists. The experiment was conducted within the framework of international scientific-practical conference "Socionics and social technologies in the XXI Century", which became one of the biggest meetings socionic 90s {1}.

    The experiment involved 43 experts from Zaporozhye, Kiev, Kharkov, Donetsk, Moscow, Lviv, Kremenchug, Yekaterinburg, St. Petersburg, Feodosia, Dneprodzerzhinsk and Dnipropetrovsk. Five of the experts expressed their desire to speak to the results published under pseudonyms, and the rest - under their own names. It was recorded two indivisible team (the first of two, the second of five), whose members are involved only in the K-experiment, respectively, these groups always registered as a tipirovschik. Therefore, the totals are the results of 38 tipirovschikov. In addition, recorded another indivisible group, but its members have participated in the K, and in and experiments.

    The average age was 31 years tipirovschikov, the youngest age tipirovschik was 18 years old, while the maximum age was 64 years. Distribution by age groups is shown in Table 1.


    On average, each tipirovschik participated in 7 PPTI {4}. In all 13 participants only PPTI Gorbunov (Dnepropetrovsk), Ermakov (Kiev) and D. Mamrak (Dnepropetrovsk). In 12 PPTI attended Kate Semenova (pseudonym), Kiev-2 (indivisible group of five socionists of Zaporozhye), V. Garashchuk (Dnepropetrovsk). Others tipirovschiki participated in fewer PPTI.



    Comment for those who are not familiar with the methodology of the experiment. ... Methodology of CPT-99 was discussed in detail for almost a year before the actual experiment. The discussion was attended by a large number of socionists from Ukraine, Russia, Baltic countries, UK and USA. The most interesting proposals have been published in the pages of "socionic readings" - was published 29 articles by various authors, which discussed the upcoming event. In the end, it was decided to conduct an experiment on a series-parallel circuit in the form of so-called PPTI. In short, the idea was that each tipiruemogo during PPTI interviewed 4 groups tipirovschikov. These groups were combined into two pairs. With respect to each other, these couples have worked (interviewed) in succession, one after another, and within the group interviewed couples in parallel (at the same time, being in the same room
    {2}). Each group participated in the first interview, and after its completion were determined by individual experts socionists version, and then the group dispersed in different rooms, discussed and worked out a collective tipiruemogo version. Thus, for each of tipiruemyh recorded a number of individual versions and 4 collective (group).

    To control the correctness of the experiment and the observance of the claimed method was organized by the Supervisory Board, which, apart from some well-known socionists from different cities, went in and completely independent observers "to" {3}.

    Full text of the techniques of the experiment CPT-99 can be found in N 3-99 "socionic readings" or on the web page of our newspapers ...

    As an experiment performed on tipiruemyh university students of Dnepropetrovsk, aged 18 to 23 years. The median age was slightly more than 20 years. Of the 13 subjects were 6 male and 7 - female.

    Each subject participated in one PPTI, during which conducted two interviews. In an interview attended by 5 to 18 tipirovschikov, the average number socionists during the interview was 12.

    The experiment was carried out 13 (the number of subjects) and to the series-parallel typological identification (PPTI), during which the act was carried out 273 individual expert evaluation. In 266 cases the results of expert evaluation of individual tipirovschikami formulated version of Tim the subject, and in 7 cases received tipirovschikami information was insufficient to formulate conclusions about Tim test.

    During the experiment, only one of PPTI 13 was I-convergence of {5}, only 3 were PPTI K-convergence of {6}. Average convergence was 31% (see Table 6, due to the large size - 37 K - she moved to separate file), and the average number of versions of the test Thieme - 7.5.

    Here and below, the value of convergence is the ratio of experts "voted" for the most popular version, the total number of experts, typed the individual concerned. For example, if there is nobody on the X to be 2 versions of the ESE, a version of OR, 4 versions of the FEL, 5 versions of the ILE and a judge refrained from expressing versions, the convergence of the results for X to be 5 / (2 +1 +4 +5 +1) = 0.38 = 38%.

    Each of the 13 subjects during the experiment, participated in 2 different interviews that were conducted simultaneously by 2 different groups of experts (in total - four of the expert group on one of the interviewee). It is interesting to assess the convergence within groups of experts were based on the same information about tipiruemom, that is participating in an interview. These groups was 26, only 4 of them observed the I-convergence (more than half of the experts independently came at once to the same opinion.) Average convergence of these 26 groups was 38% tipirovschikov.

    Many are interested in the convergence of the scales. Relevant data {7} are shown in Table 8.




    Please note that the minimum possible convergence on the scale - 50% - this is when exactly half of the experts chose one pole of the scale, and the second - on the other. In fact, there is no convergence in this case. Therefore, tsifra60% is extremely low!

    It is interesting to see the convergence of the versions of the square. It turned out to be 41% and was only 2 and-match out of 13. That is, only 2 of 13 tipiruemyh more than half the experts socionists independently came to the same opinion about the quadra to which the examinee.

    In addition to the Blocks, you can look at the other four types. For example, clubs. Take socion (16 TIMov) and share it on the 4 groups of 4 TIM with the two scales: the logic of ethics and intuition-sensing. Then analyze the number of "votes" cast tipirovschikami for membership of the test to a particular club. Here the convergence of the better - 51%. Accordingly, 6 I-matches out of 13.

    Similarly, you can break into fours socion TIMov many different ways, and in each case, the convergence of view. The most interesting result of the analysis of convergence in groups, formation of the division socion scales extraversion-introversion and logic-ethics. For 12 out of 13 subjects more than half of them typed socionists immediately and independently came to similar conclusions about which of the groups described belongs to the subject. In other words, we can say that for 12 out of 13 subjects were recorded and versions of the subject's affiliation to one of the fours TIMov. Average convergence here is 60%.

    Can these data be interpreted so that "during the experiment, the convergence of the observed half - two of the 4 scales?" Perhaps, in some ways, yes. Why is "in some way?" Because just about remember the words that "if the sturgeon is the second freshness, it means that it is rotten!" ...

    During the break, the last day of the conference a meeting of the Supervisory Board of the experiment, which, in particular, has been drawn up and signed the act of summing up the CPT-99. The instrument recorded the main results of the experiment, as well as the fact that CPT-99 was conducted in full accordance with the claimed method, without any of its violations.

    In the ensuing discussion, and members of the Supervisory Board, and most nerazehavshihsya the last day of the conference were unanimous in several areas:

    1. In the coming years is to refrain from commercial use socionic methods (first of all - based on interviews by tipoopredelenii)
    and
    concentrate on research.
    2. Zafiksipovannaya in Quaternary ekspepimenta ~ 30% although convergence chpezvychaynomala, but it is not accidental - it is much higher than that of an arbitrary DURING Choice ekspeptnogo Industry solutions about Tim test. In particular, if we calculate the average probability that a given distribution on the number of experts, to define each type, does not differ from uniform (on criterion A2), this value is less than 0.005 (estimated AM El'yashevich). This gives grounds to hope for a "better future" Socionics.

    It should be noted that the increase in the number of participants in the experiment would have caused, most likely, only a decrease in the average convergence. To illustrate this idea enough to take the situation in Kiev, where very famous Socionics - A. Boukalov, V. Gulenko, Ermakov, I. Kaganets, A. Salnikov, G. Schulman - still can not come to one opinion, even on Timahoe EACH OTHER! And yet each of them by not only dozens of articles and books on Socionics!

    Many members of CPT-99 drew attention to the difficulties that occur at the collective agreement versions, when it was necessary to develop a consensus, the final version. Sometimes it came to a very heated debate. And this despite the fact that very often advertised as Socionics "science communication, understanding and agreement" ...

    The lack of a common language - the key problem of today's Socionics, a decision which can be produced only in a series of experiments similar to CPT. For new activities of this kind, of course, do not wait until the next conference in April 2002 N 5-99 "socionic readings" was published several articles on the idea of ​​creating obschesotsionicheskogo Information Center, designed for centralized collection, processing information hraneniyai of experiments compared the results of typing. Since issue commercial certification socionists understandably lost its relevance, then discussed the information center are only a research and coordination functions, which can take Edition "socionic readings." Accordingly, all matters relating to the holding of local CPT-field experiments, {8}, please refer directly to the editors.



    ... In January of 1999. VL Pavlov conducted a micro-experiment in a way similar to CPT-99. In connection with the loss of old scores, he walked in Dnepropetrovsk 7 private specialized firms {9}, and always asked him to make a diagnosis of and prescription. In several of the firms he had (of course, for an additional fee) diagnosis of the computer, allegedly 100% accurate and objective. As a result, there was not a single pair of firms, which would be discharged the same recipes. With that, the difference was not only in the strength of lenses {10}, but even in the distance between the pupils, which, according to some recipes, varied within a month to nearly half an inch ...

    Modern disease Socionics, in essence, a manifestation of the common diseases of our society, and it is hoped that as the stabilization and improvement of the situation in the former Soviet Union similar tendencies are observed in socionic movement.

    1. It was attended by more than 80 socionists from 17 cities of the former Soviet Union (including from Dnepropetrovsk - about 40 people).
    2. The experiment was conducted in the classrooms of Dnepropetrovsk branch of the Ukrainian Academy of Public Administration under the President of Ukraine, which was one of the co-organizers of the project.
    3. For example, A. Zabludovsky - President of the Union of the Dnepropetrovsk managers, VK Eselsky - director of the House of Scientists, Dnepropetrovsk, and several others. In addition, the Supervisory Board consisting of members of the organizing committee of the experiment, carried out the executive functions.
    4. PPTI - parallel to serial typological identification. PPTI consisted of two consecutive 45-minute interview with the subject and then debate its TIM in the four groups.
    5. In other words, only one of the 13 subjects interviewed, more than half its socionists independently came to the same conclusion about it Tim.
    6. In other words, only three of 13 subjects at least three of the four groups socionists discussing the subject, independently came to similar conclusions about its collective Thieme.
    7. It is interesting to note that almost similar ranking scale for consistency of results was obtained by various tipirovschikov O. Nazarko (Dnepropetrovsk) by analysis of protocols ranking tournaments of the School of 2P-typing system. These results were reported by A. Nazarko in April 1998 on socionic conference held in Kiev by "meeting place" and magazine "Socion."
    8. Including, in order to receive methodical, informational and organizational support.
    9. Basically - the most publicized and expensive.
    10. This difference sometimes reaches one diopter in accuracy (the accuracy with which prescriptions) 0.25 diopters.
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    EffyCold The Ineffable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    This is a bad news for all of you(I talking about English - language forum. For the rest's Russian-language socionists - it is not a news. It is a well known fact)
    I know of CPT-99 for quite some time, it apparently created a lot of fuss there, since it was referenced on many sites. Am I understanding correctly that, in a way, it was the "Tower of Babel" of the Russian socionist community?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    And remember! You! All of you - must to do something that will improve the situation in socionics.
    Remember: no convergence - no science!
    But convergence does not imply science. You, seem to be interested in the social consistency, convergence with any price, that's more of a social movement, ideology, closer in nature to organized religion than scientific reasoning.

    And you're also mistyped, you're likely EIE, I'm fairly certain you're not LII. Your bombastic social initiatives paint all Hamlets dim . Solve that and then we may talk about agreeing.
    Last edited by The Ineffable; 07-15-2011 at 05:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    This is a bad news for all of you(I talking about English - language forum. For the rest's Russian-language socionists - it is not a news. It is a well known fact)
    I know of CPT-99 for quite some time, it apparently created a lot of fuss there, since it was referenced on many sites. Am I understanding correctly that, in a way, it was the "Tower of Babel" of the Russian socionist community?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    And remember! You! All of you - must to do something that will improve the situation in socionics.
    Remember: no convergence - no science!
    But convergence does not imply science. You, seem to be interested in the social consistency, convergence with any price, that's more of a social movement, ideology, closer in nature to organized religion than scientific reasoning.

    And you're also mistyped, you're likely EIE, I'm fairly certain you're not LII. Your bombastic social initiatives paint all Hamlets dim . Solve that and then we may talk about agreeing.
    You tell me that I am mistype? - Do you consider, that you can not mistake? - Remember: all socionists who were in experiment thought about themselves the same way. So - you cost them!
    I had opened this theme because most of the members behaviour the same as they don't know about the experiment. So that's why I need to refresh them their memory
    And your behaviour - the similar. You are telling me that you are know about this experiment - you wrong! You don't know nothing!
    I will send you to this theme again and again until you wouldn't understand it on the required level of quality!
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Serious post:

    I can identify 100% the type of the people I talk to in person.

    Every time I talk about Star Wars, gamma quadra members get uneasy! Alpha quadra members laugh, deltas ignore me and betas chase me!
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    EffyCold The Ineffable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Do you consider, that you can not mistake?
    I didn't say that, just your typing doesn't make sense. We can both see and talk about it, it's not just about me...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Remember: all socionists who were in experiment thought about themselves the same way. So - you cost them!
    IMO that's because most people have no idea what they're talking about. There are a lot of amateurs who call themselves "socionists", anyone in fact can do that. There's no official structure to select who's good at this, the expertise comes from understanding of Aushra's writings, IMO. There are a lot of so-called knowledgeable people who confuse the Socionics concepts with others.

    BTW, let me ask you something: do you think that Jung's Object/Subject is applicable to the Socionics Bodies/Fields (Extroverted/Introverted), in Information Elements? Do you also think that Jung's types and functions are the same as Sicionics'? (I would ask you more questions to test your knowledge, but with other occasion)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    You are telling me that you are know about this experiment - you wrong! You don't know nothing!
    I will send you to this theme again and again until you wouldn't understand it on the required level of quality!
    I'm serious, I knew about it from different sites. I don't remember all of them, but here's one example: http://psychotype.ru/article/categor...c-books/srt-99.
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    And you're also mistyped, you're likely EIE, I'm fairly certain you're not LII.
    You say the most funniest things not even realising you do, Hans. Priceless.

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    IMO the message the CPT experiment sends to the world is that we should not attempt to find confirmation in others' typings, but to make them ourselves. I told that to some people who are inclined to such reasoning, here's one example: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...696#post788696.

    There must be a consistency in understanding, not in the results: that comes naturally if the former is satisfied. I know for a fact that people use radically *different* understandings in Socionics, some mix it with MBTI, others with Jung, others with Enneagram and whatnot. And obviously, the question is "who is right?". No one can decide this, however, if someone comes with a proper revision and working methods, that one will naturally be considered reliable. But there are a lot of "magicians" who come out with all sorts of hard "solutions" (eg the shape of the head) which obviously can give indisputable results, but they are not the correct ones...
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Serious post:

    I can identify 100% the type of the people I talk to in person.

    Every time I talk about Star Wars, gamma quadra members get uneasy! Alpha quadra members laugh, deltas ignore me and betas chase me!
    Foolproof!
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Do you consider, that you can not mistake?
    I didn't say that, just your typing doesn't make sense. We can both see and talk about it, it's not just about me...
    You are behaviour yourself as you did!
    Talking about that doesn't make a sense until you won't ask yourself about approximate probability every time, every your logical step!
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    And you're also mistyped, you're likely EIE, I'm fairly certain you're not LII.
    hahah. i've been having half-serious thoughts along these lines. the !!! are flying all over the place.

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    And you're also mistyped, you're likely EIE, I'm fairly certain you're not LII.
    Mistyped by you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    You are behaviour yourself as you did!
    Talking about that doesn't make a sense until you won't ask yourself about approximate probability every time, every your logical step!
    I actually did. But since you can conclude that a bombastic, dramatic social guide figure like yours can be qualified as LII, we perhaps don't use the same logic :|.
    Quote Originally Posted by Analyst Trevor View Post
    Mistyped by you?
    Nitpicking but fair point in general, however in this context no typing I know of, other than than LII, was existing in our common space when I said that, my view came out in my next proposition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    You are behaviour yourself as you did!
    Talking about that doesn't make a sense until you won't ask yourself about approximate probability every time, every your logical step!
    I actually did. But since you can conclude that a bombastic, dramatic social guide figure like yours can be qualified as LII, we perhaps don't use the same logic :|.
    .
    That it. That because we don't use a similar database, methods to identify socionic type ets.
    But I have lots of proofs that my version of socionics is true.
    Also you may visit my channel and compare me with another EIE. You may ensured - that we are very different people:












    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    But I have lots of proofs that my version of socionics is true.
    That's a different manner of saying "trust me".
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Also you may visit my channel and compare me with another EIE. You may ensured - that we are very different people:
    I don't understand what they say.

    FTR, the lady in the last video *appears* to be LII, Robespierre (1): stiff posture with sharp gestures, rigid face expressions, even in the peak moments her eyebrows move very little, she appears resolute and she finishes her ideas abruptly (awkwardly) when she said what she had to say, that without any apparent expectations for a reaction, leaving no room for continuity or emotional exchange. No small talk. Flat attitude, she doesn't attempt to appear any manner, eg serious, mysterious, dependable, random, funny, wise, stupid, depressed, relaxed, concerned and whatnot... - nothing. Normally Hamlets have an attitude, take a role from the ground up.
    ---

    (1) - she also looks like an ex workmate of mine that I type LII:
    http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...3/misc/la1.jpg
    http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...3/misc/la2.jpg
    http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...3/misc/la3.jpg
    http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...3/misc/la4.jpg
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    Arete GuavaDrunk's Avatar
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    So you basically worship maths and your self-indoctrination. Gotcha.

    Your insights appear so pressing to you you're like a racehorse with blinkers on.
    Reason is a whore.

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    I just wrote this:

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    But I have lots of proofs that my version of socionics is true.
    That's a different manner of saying "trust me".
    In maths for example exists axioms - which we are not proving - just trusting. My words - are not axioms, but if wouldn't trust absolutely nothing - you will not achieve any knowledge. Just trust, verify(check), correct to take on arms, wrong - drop out...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Also you may visit my channel and compare me with another EIE. You may ensured - that we are very different people:
    So have you realised that we are very different people?


    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    I don't understand what they say.

    FTR, the lady in the last video *appears* to be LII, Robespierre (1): stiff posture with sharp gestures,
    = Judging pole, of the dichotomy Perceiving - Judging.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    rigid face expressions, even in the peak moments her eyebrows move very little,
    = Constructivism, Hamlets - are constructivists. In peak moments she looks bombastic, Dramatic, Exciting, Tragic, Comic etc. = Extraverted Feeling
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    she appears resolute and she finishes her ideas abruptly (awkwardly) when she said what she had to say,
    = Decisive. Hamlets are Decisive

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    that without any apparent expectations for a reaction, leaving no room for continuity or emotional exchange.
    No room for emotional exchange!? - that's wrong. Have you been seen how I was excited in the period of time: 2:16 till 3:37 - are you talking nonsense and that's all!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    No small talk. Flat attitude, she doesn't attempt to appear any manner, eg serious, mysterious, dependable, random, funny, wise, stupid, depressed, relaxed, concerned and whatnot... - nothing. Normally Hamlets have an attitude, take a role from the ground up.
    Totally wrong - Perhaps, you had didn't watched this video because even if you seen the all this video you understood that you are talking nonsense. Because all of these emotions were being on her during this video.


    ---
    photo does not mean anything. I gave you a video, and you give me pictures. I classify this material as "taken out of context"
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    I can't understand: What's happened? I had just flawlessly proved The version of the Alina's socionic type EIE "Hamlet"
    Two days passed - and... nothing!!!
    There is you thanks?!
    There is you applause?!!
    This is absolutely injustice!!!
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    I can't understand: What's happened? I had just flawlessly proved The version of the Alina's socionic type EIE "Hamlet"
    Two days passed - and... nothing!!!
    There is you thanks?!
    There is you applause?!!
    This is absolutely injustice!!!
    Thank you for your reply, Slavik! I still think the same thing as before, including that you're an Extroverted type (in fact I'm more convinced of this now).
    ---

    Regarding your answer:
    - you still consider trust/belief as a necessity to accomplish anything. I'm a fan of rigor, correctness, I'm not gonna jump into the unknown just like that, and I'm sure no Robespierre would try to convince me otherwise;
    - I know we are different people, it doesn't tell anything about who's right;
    - Fe-Base types (Hugo, Hamlet) are not stiff, on the contrary, they're the most expansive and expressive. BTW, do you have a video of yourself posted?
    - "Decisive" is not to be taken literally, I meant that's how Ti-Base types use to finish ideas, abruptly. You're making an equivocation, "resolute" is not a necessary personality trait of Resolute types - think of Yesenin or Balzac.
    - everyone can get excited, just her reactions are too inhibited;
    - I don't speak Russian so I can't say for sure whether she was exchanging emotional charge with the interviewer, but if that is true, it can IMO be only silent (more like Fe-Creative do - Yesenin, Dumas);
    - the example of my colleague was not a proof or evidence of any kind against what you say, she's just someone who looks similar and uses the same body language as Alina and who I type as Robespierre.
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav
    Do you possess the methodology which allows you to identify the socionic relationships and distinguish them from others?
    IMO, when I meet a person with whom I share a negative Socionics relationship (conflict, supervision, etc) I tend to feel uneasy, as well as egos seem to feel uneasy when I display or . What does uneasy mean? Perhaps it can be measured: blood pressure, heart rate, body temperature, etc.

    Can you prove that your socionic type is identified with a minimal mistake?
    Speaking on Statistics, some things are certain within a certain "confidence interval".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval

    In other words, think of: "What's your type? ILE 99% of confidence" instead of "What's your type? ILE, 100% sure. cento per cento, end of story"


    I can also recall fuzzy logic. Define the idea "being tall" and "being short". The former consists of "being above 1.80 m" and the latter as "being below 1.70 m".

    Being tall=1
    Being short=0

    A guy who's 1.90 is tall --> guy 1/tall=1/short=0
    A guy who's 1.65 is short-->guy2/tall=0/short=1

    What about a guy who is 1.78? He's not tall by this standards, but certainly he is not short. Let's assign these values to him: Guy 3/tall=0.8/short=0.2

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

    Etc,etc perhaps being a certain type resembles some of the concepts I drew up. BTW, humans learn by imitating others: our Socionics type can be shaped. For instance, an ILE who works with lots of gammas will probably end up thinking like them!
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Yaaroslav - The Innefable

    "When two worlds collide"

    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Yaaroslav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    I can't understand: What's happened? I had just flawlessly proved The version of the Alina's socionic type EIE "Hamlet"
    Two days passed - and... nothing!!!
    There is you thanks?!
    There is you applause?!!
    This is absolutely injustice!!!
    Thank you for your reply, Slavik! I still think the same thing as before, including that you're an Extroverted type (in fact I'm more convinced of this now).
    ---
    Regarding your answer:
    - you still consider trust/belief as a necessity to accomplish anything. I'm a fan of rigor, correctness, I'm not gonna jump into the unknown just like that, and I'm sure no Robespierre would try to convince me otherwise;
    This is a just a part of my life philosophy this is just part of my philosophy of life inspired by socionics, according to that: critical mistake in the any of 8 aspects may cause fatal results. So before you had made one: absolute distrust will create you the barrier to understand new. But that doesn't mean that I am strong in this functions. I just going to avoid the critical mistake and no more.
    Sometimes it makes me wonder that knowledge of socionics force me to take some unconventional solutions, using advices from the people who more strong in their functions than me, but as the result: to achieve better results than if wouldn't ask them about.
    - These are the real practical advantages of the alternative thought.
    Also: You seen me as a Bombastic, dramatic ets person, but you also seen me as a high logic development person for example in the themes for:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=36578

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=36576

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=36524

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=36541
    There are more logic than emotion in me.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    - I know we are different people, it doesn't tell anything about who's right;
    I told about that we are different people in my presented to you database video. Beetwen me and Other Hamlets. Perhaps, you didn't watched me attentively. So why should we speak about?
    "Гамлет ENFJ Яворовский" - I am there
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    - Fe-Base types (Hugo, Hamlet) are not stiff, on the contrary, they're the most expansive and expressive.
    Hamlets - are stiff. If you consider, that they are not stiff - that is the illusion, and one day she'll pinch you. - Just for lolls

    ignorant function doesn't allow to expand anywhere because it would
    violate the psychological distance. So that is normally that with just met man like me
    So that was naturally that you didn't seen it on Alina's video

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    BTW, do you have a video of yourself posted?
    I have already posted a video with "Яворовский" but I can give you more



    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    - "Decisive" is not to be taken literally, I meant that's how Ti-Base types use to finish ideas, abruptly. You're making an equivocation, "resolute" is not a necessary personality trait of Resolute types - think of Yesenin or Balzac.
    Of couse, I do not taking it literary, and I also know about:
    "resolute" is not a necessary personality trait of Resolute types - think of Yesenin or Balzac.""
    I talking about another one "Decisive" dichotomy which has another filling but in the same time based on values in model A Not in literal meanings.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    - everyone can get excited, just her reactions are too inhibited;
    Judging Pole.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    - I don't speak Russian so I can't say for sure whether she was exchanging emotional charge with the interviewer, but if that is true, it can IMO be only silent (more like Fe-Creative do - Yesenin, Dumas);
    Probably not you just do not speak Russian, but still, in addition you - inFEELetive
    Just watch for our intonations on this period of time again! 2:16 till 3:37

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    - the example of my colleague was not a proof or evidence of any kind against what you say, she's just someone who looks similar and uses the same body language as Alina and who I type as Robespierre.
    Bad example... Bad data format...
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav
    Do you possess the methodology which allows you to identify the socionic relationships and distinguish them from others?
    IMO, when I meet a person with whom I share a negative Socionics relationship (conflict, supervision, etc) I tend to feel uneasy, as well as egos seem to feel uneasy when I display or . What does uneasy mean? Perhaps it can be measured: blood pressure, heart rate, body temperature, etc.
    You may just met a person with a negative motivated against you. Certainly it also could be measured in the same way. You don't explained me the methodology that allows you to identify the socionic relationships and distinguish them from others. The task is in:
    distinguishing other kind of socionic relationships
    distinguishing other kind relationships at all.
    PS:
    I know some hypotheses that when a person getting too much information on the ignoring function - the blood pressure are increasing dramatically.
    That would be interesting to get an instruments which allow to measure it.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Can you prove that your socionic type is identified with a minimal mistake?
    Speaking on Statistics, some things are certain within a certain "confidence interval".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval

    In other words, think of: "What's your type? ILE 99% of confidence" instead of "What's your type? ILE, 100% sure. cento per cento, end of story"


    I can also recall fuzzy logic. Define the idea "being tall" and "being short". The former consists of "being above 1.80 m" and the latter as "being below 1.70 m".

    Being tall=1
    Being short=0

    A guy who's 1.90 is tall --> guy 1/tall=1/short=0
    A guy who's 1.65 is short-->guy2/tall=0/short=1

    What about a guy who is 1.78? He's not tall by this standards, but certainly he is not short. Let's assign these values to him: Guy 3/tall=0.8/short=0.2

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

    Etc,etc perhaps being a certain type resembles some of the concepts I drew up. BTW, humans learn by imitating others: our Socionics type can be shaped. For instance, an ILE who works with lots of gammas will probably end up thinking like them!
    So what? Where the proof is?
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    I told about that we are different people in my presented to you database video. Beetwen me and Other Hamlets. Perhaps, you didn't watched me attentively. So why should we speak about?
    "Гамлет ENFJ Яворовский" - I am there
    Lovely video! That guy you type Hamlet is almost identically my father-in-law, he's also performing a live serenade! But I don't think my father-in-law is Dumas, *I'm sure* he is Dumas - so naturally I incline to believe that one is Dumas, too, however any Fe type would do. You appear ambiguous there (one may say Yesenin, too), but in your next video you're clearly Hamlet, IMO.

    Check this, have you an opinion on the type of this conductor and composer (Shardad Rohani):
    http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/...4610781250.jpg
    http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/...i+bio_pic1.jpg
    http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/...dad+Rohani.jpg
    http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/...usic_photo.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Hamlets - are stiff. If you consider, that they are not stiff - that is the illusion, and one day she'll pinch you. - Just for lolls
    They're not stiff, but they have prestance, attitude. It's precisely the inversion of that lady. She is relaxed, doesn't assume an attitude or something, on the other hand she is stiff and blunt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    ignorant function doesn't allow to expand anywhere because it would
    violate the psychological distance. So that is normally that with just met man like me
    So that was naturally that you didn't seen it on Alina's video
    Don't confuse the stiffness I talk about with anything that comes from emotional inhibitions/awkwardness. She seems pretty relaxed and appears to be pretty much herself, IMO. The awkwardness I was talking about is potentially provoked in an interlocutor, when she cuts it out so abruptly and decisively (since there's no logical reasons to say anything else).

    I have a LII friend (now you have to trust me that I typed him correctly, although what I say makes sense), unlike any close other I know, when he was refusing me he was just saying "no". No "I'm sorry", not "I can't", no explanation, nothing but "no". That's because Ti-Base see no reason to say anything else since the final conclusion is anyway clear, they go the same way about anything: when a conclusion is taken, anything else is superfluous. EIEs are different, when they tell you something, they first prepare you, explain the background, blah-blah, in the end it has to come naturally to you, they don't finish their speech after they told you everything you needed to know, just like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Of couse, I do not taking it literary, and I also know about:

    I talking about another one "Decisive" dichotomy which has another filling but in the same time based on values in model A Not in literal meanings.
    Than your former argument is invalid, what in those traits implies Decisive type?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Just watch for our intonations on this period of time again! 2:16 till 3:37
    But I said it already, every person may get excited, including Fe-PoLRs. Just they don't do it the same way. Of course, a Hamlet would not go overboard with it, just they're much more expressive. Indeed such observations are probably not so easy to communicate, but the way I see her, your argument reduces to "everyone who laughs and gets worked-up is not a Ti-Base". From my experience, that limited extent is natural for a Ti-Base (and note I'm not actually sure she is Robespierre, just Hamlet sounds pretty off).
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

    The16types.info Scientific Model

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    Yaaroslav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    I told about that we are different people in my presented to you database video. Beetwen me and Other Hamlets. Perhaps, you didn't watched me attentively. So why should we speak about?
    "Гамлет ENFJ Яворовский" - I am there
    Lovely video! That guy you type Hamlet is almost identically my father-in-law, he's also performing a live serenade! But I don't think my father-in-law is Dumas, *I'm sure* he is Dumas - so naturally I incline to believe that one is Dumas, too, however any Fe type would do. You appear ambiguous there (one may say Yesenin, too), but in your next video you're clearly Hamlet, IMO.

    Check this, have you an opinion on the type of this conductor and composer (Shardad Rohani):


    According to your video I understood that we have a completely different ideas about of type ENFJ. But I know the socionic type of him (approximate 60% - the case of low level of analysing). I consider that he has a type INFP
    I have a dedicated to INFP video
    So, here is it. Her name is Sweety
    Just watch to the experiment: switch both videos in the same time and then(both videos must be visible on the screen): watch: what would be happened!
    I can also propose you another one video: go on this link:
    http://rutube.ru/tracks/360076.html?...74ab4e7c1299b4
    and watch since 8:36.
    He name is Shulman Grirory Aleksandrovich
    Also open them 3 in the same time, (link with Shulman - better to watch in anouther open window) - and then: watch: what would be happened!
    Shulman has been officially typed by Aushra and known as INFP "Esenin". I don't know about any of doubts from any of socionists, and I don't have a doubts also. Anyone from my database was typed with a high logical redundancy.
    So you must realise that you had made a mistake in your representation of INFP types, also in ENFJ.
    Also probably you had made in representation of other types, and in socionics whole.
    So it is time, for you to check up the another version of socionic types, and analysing my knowledge on high level detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaroslav View Post
    Just watch for our intonations on this period of time again! 2:16 till 3:37
    But I said it already, every person may get excited, including Fe-PoLRs. Just they don't do it the same way. Of course, a Hamlet would not go overboard with it, just they're much more expressive. Indeed such observations are probably not so easy to communicate, but the way I see her, your argument reduces to "everyone who laughs and gets worked-up is not a Ti-Base". From my experience, that limited extent is natural for a Ti-Base (and note I'm not actually sure she is Robespierre, just Hamlet sounds pretty off).
    This just proves the fact that the identifying the type - is not a simple task. Therefore, arguing exactly the same as denying someone's type - you should be prepared very thoroughly. Your attempt to expose my Appeal against type, then when you did it - was nonsense.
    DO YOU CONSIDER: YOU CAN NOT MISTAKE?
    (You words - doesn't matter. The matter is - your deeds)
    Anyone who would dare argue with me should be able to pass the test on the basis of Socionics. Otherwise, he will be recognized as a boor.
    Remember: NO CONVERGENCE - NO SCIENCE!

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