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Thread: Why Socionics Actually Matters

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    Default Why Socionics Actually Matters

    contra tcaud, it's not going to solve the world's problems, nor is it going to revolutionize we relate to one another. Even Freud didn't really do that, and his ideas were, frankly, better and defended with better rhetoric.

    contra most people on this forum (Ashton, with a degree of facetiousness I can never determine), it's not useless either.

    Socionics matters because people are different. Sometimes so different that they have trouble communicating. Have you ever been in an argument and you suddenly hit this point where it's like, "I'm confused. This doesn't even make sense. I know that what this other person is saying isn't totally wrong, but I just can't wrap my head around it, let alone agree with it"? That's socionics in action.

    Socionics is for those moments in which nobody is wrong and everybody is equally right. Socionics is for those moments when what works for me doesn't work for you, and I have to step aside gracefully, understanding that I don't understand. Socionics is for those moments when you feel that divide that you're never quite going to cross between someone else's perspective and your own.

    Now, does that mean that the "lesson" of socionics is, "stick to your own kind," except kind is a poorly defined grouping of poorly defined types with poorly defined information elements undergirding them? Not at all! Rather, socionics is a tool that you can use to navigate the ways in which you will inevitably have to deal with the fact that someone's perspective is irreconcilable with yours, despite the fact that neither of you are wrong. It's a tool to cope with life, not to run away with it.

    With socionics, you can recognize when you need to stop preaching and let it be. And with socionics, you can recognize that some people can't stop preaching and let it be, that they have to find their own way to make peace with others' differences. Socionics can help you find the allies who are going to share your vision, and also to tell the difference between an enemy and somebody who just doesn't, and can't, understand.

    Socionics is a great teacher of "not good, not bad, just different." Socionics helps us see the "just different," and even, sometimes, if you think hard enough, make some guesses as to what that "different" is like. And if you understand someone else's world, even a little bit, you can begin to slowly cross that gulf that separates your respective worldviews. And even if you can never touch (it's hard enough to touch with people whose worldview is perfectly complementary to yours), you might be able to get close enough that when you shout over the distance, the other person doesn't hear an unintelligible noise---they begin to hear language that they can translate back into their own, and begin to understand in their terms something like what you meant in yours. And then they can begin to communicate back to you in a sort of pidgin language of information. And eventually, it becomes easier to get productive work done with people with whom you have fundamental differences.

    And yet you also know where to come back and unwind, where to find like-minded individuals. You can learn what topics and ideas might be too hot to touch. You can learn what approaches will cause more harm than good. You can learn to accept difference, rather than trying to prove that you are right. And you can also accept that some people will never accept you, because your view is foreign, contrary to all their modes of understanding the world, like if you were working as an architect and all of a sudden someone told you to sight read some music. You'd say, "I know how to read a blueprint, but this doesn't make any sense to me." And the musician would say, "But this is a blueprint!" You could reply, "No, it's not," and get into a shouting match. Or you could reply, "well, that's not the kind of blueprint that I'm used to, but let me show it to some of my friends, and maybe they can show me how this relates to the kind of blueprint I do understand." The latter, while more wordy, is more productive.

    So, that's what the point of socionics is, in my opinion. And that's how we can begin to use socionics not just as a tool of intellectual masturbation (because lets be honest, this stuff is the softcore foot fetish flick of intellectual masturbation porn---works really well for some guys, but in general, not really gonna get you off), but as a tool for living in the real world, getting along with people, and understanding the world around us.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Bravo, Chris. We share the same perspective on the value of socionics. Also, I agree with the point ashton seems, more or less, to have attempted to make. Socionics theory shines as a mechanism for provoking observation and contemplation as regard the dynamics of relationships and our experiences thereof. As a hard, literal model of human cognition, socionics is about as barren as discojoe's sense of humor and pathetic as his "game."
    Last edited by Timmy; 07-13-2011 at 12:31 AM.

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    But, there are socionics reasons why people don't get along.


    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Bravo, Chris. We share the same perspective on the value of socionics. Also, I agree with the point ashton seems, more or less to have attempted to make. Socionics theory shines as a mechanism for provoking observation and contemplation as regard the dynamics of relationships and our experiences thereof. As a hard, literal model of human cognition, socionics is about as barren as discojoe's sense of humor and pathetic as his "game."
    LOL

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    there's value in intertype relations - in a very general sense, the connections outlined are really common sense - find a compatible opposite to balance you. I've seen people cultivate socionics in a way that has visibly improved their lives through this, so its usefulness is unquestionable to me.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    (Ashton, with a degree of facetiousness I can never determine)
    Lol, victory.

    Umm, in all seriousness I don't think Socionics is useless… per se. Just that one's understanding has to evolve beyond Socionics, before it can become useful.

    I know that probably doesn't make sense but I'm not sufficiently caffeinated to explain.
    Ashton is always too something or doesn't have time to explain. The truth is he just trolls and can't explain.

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    Some people on here, and I myself have done this, have 'broken the 4th wall too much.' Gilly chastised Ashton for doing it, but really he wasn't the only guilty culprit.

    It's like you want to sort of cut out all ego dreams and fantasies and 'ideals' about people and like 'shock people' by your ability to be sort of hardened, objective and rational. Or extremely artistic. Either way it's kinda pointless.

    Pointless because the entire world is actually run by the fantasies and ideals and not really cutting through them, so I think taking on the role of breaking the 4th wall is just self-defeating in the end. I mean, society values a 'hollywood movie' based on how interesting it is, above all else. Even though in all reality there is nothing real at all about it, it's all pretend yet it's what people want and it's what society is motivated by.

    I think if 'real reality' was actually recorded back to humans, you would be so disgusted that you'd kill yourself.

    If 'socionics' happens to be in your ego dream sphere, I don't think there's much we can do about it until your brain gets 'hijacked' by something else. Whatever obsession it is. Without these hijack-y things though, it's quite possible that our brains would just implode on ourselves.

    Now the gurus are saying that the way to correct all these imbalances is to look at everything as being one and holy and 'only oneness is true.' However it's not interesting and the drama and push-pull of human interpersonal relationships will always win out over something like that.

    It's okay to like socionics is what I'm saying. =p Don't be all insecure if you actually enjoy it that's just frustrating and infuriating.

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    Silverchris I'm really impressed. This was a master stroke of intuitive realization.

    I think we should put this somewhere very visible.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 07-10-2011 at 07:37 AM.

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    Silverchris well put. I see things similarly as well. Bravo indeed.
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    Yes. I like this a lot. Silverchris, are you sure you're IEI? lol, just kidding...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Yes. I like this a lot. Silverchris, are you sure you're IEI? lol, just kidding...
    he was raised by an IEE mother--i wonder if that factor plays into things...
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Yes. I like this a lot. Silverchris, are you sure you're IEI? lol, just kidding...
    he was raised by an IEE mother--i wonder if that factor plays into things...
    Nah... he always sounds too genuine, authentic and well-rounded.
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterX View Post
    We don't need socionics in order to accept that people are different and that they behave differently from us. Billions of people have not even heard of socionics. They merely do not explain away the differences between themselves and others in the lens of socionics.

    The value of socionics as helping to, "deal with the fact that someone's perspective is irreconcilable with yours, despite the fact that neither of you are wrong", isn't all that valuable to a relatively open-minded individual who already accepts that people are different.
    Quote Originally Posted by HunterX View Post
    As an aside, I find the lumping together of the various sets of complementary opposites and trying to attribute them to any one particular function and linking it to types, (as is the daily preoccupation of this forum) quite absurd as well as limiting. It's as if a study that has gone off into a completely wrong and dead direction through the understanding of a model, which though have sparked much by way of interest has failed to live up to its potential. One makes assumptions as to what a particular function is about, makes attribution to some abstract external statics object and farsighted merry dichotomy (and goodness knows what else), tries to gain consensus, and attempts to explain every real life behaviour through that lens. Cute.
    who are you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post

    he was raised by an IEE mother--i wonder if that factor plays into things...
    Nah... he always sounds too genuine, authentic and well-rounded.
    Meaning u dont think he's IEI? or meaning you dont think he has IEE influence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post

    Nah... he always sounds too genuine, authentic and well-rounded.
    Meaning u dont think he's IEI? or meaning you dont think he has IEE influence?
    What I mean to say, is that IEIs that have been socialized by Deltas into Delta-style behaviors (and I know a few) don't make sense like Silverchris does. And furthermore, I'm not saying IEIs don't make sense, but IEIs trying to behave like IEEs are often silly. Silverchris is not silly.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    [quote=HunterX;789799]
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    In what way though, have these people you say cultivated socionics to have visibly improved their lives? How certain are you that these same people would be unable to improve their lives without knowledge of socionics? If a person is bent on improving their lives, wouldn't they have come to a reconciliation one way or another, with or without socionics? Simply because they have the will to want to solve problems, and not because of how much help a general characterization framework have rendered to them. It's purpose is merely, as silverchris has pointed out, to have people realize that they need to accept people for their differences, to just accept and perhaps adapt, and not to force them to change to how you want them to be (though arguably this can be done). If the value of socionics is merely acceptance, this is a purpose which any personality theory with sufficient complexity can achieve, and as I have pointed out, any sufficiently open-minded individual can achieve.
    I don't have much to to expand on this as I like - but the most obvious example that comes to mind is knowing extroverts who had social circles and tastes in women that were radically different than complementary - which led to a sort of misanthropy and general distaste for humanity - socionics allowed them a new perspective on the world, their place in it, and others.

    Because of this, a couple of the ones I have known have gone on to date people they wouldn't have, and cultivate like-minded individuals(from their own quadra) as closer friends which has visibly improved almost every facet of their life (radical differences in emotional, mental, and physical health).

    Without socionics, their tendency was to be drawn to like minded individuals for the wrong reasons(mutual dislike of people, etc) and because of this would end up in strained and emotionally draining relationships. Over time, I highly doubt these individuals would have improved their lives in such a drastic way. Without the drastic shift that occurred through knowing socionics, these people would have most likely ended up in bad relationships, dangerous situations, and even after maturing and even perhaps changing their relationships and mentality - I highly doubt they would have gained the beneficial lifestyles that I've seen gained through socionics. At best, they would have settled for what they could live with, instead of what they truly wanted (as most people do).

    I'm going to throw myself in there, being raised by an LSE father, I'm not exactly the conventional IEI. Realizing my complement and who I get along with was something strange to me, as I always saw these people as radically different and actually actively tried to stay away from them. It still actually surprises me how much I enjoy their company, even though we are wired so differently. If it hadn't been for socionics, I doubt I would have figured out my preferences, and as such would have missed out on doing a lot of things that are good for me. Knowing socionics gave me a grasp of what I need from others, and let me know that - hey, you don't have to take this on yourself. The very mindset of allowing you to be yourself, and freeing you to be vulnerable towards others is something invaluable that it provides in a very clear cut - pattern observable way. I've read a ton of self help junk and while alot of it is good stuff that says things along the same lines, but it is highly generalized and doesn't cut down to the source as individualized as I believe this theory does.

    As an aside - all it takes is to go outside to see how disconnected people are in terms of what they want vs what they need. Some people never figure out the difference, and I believe I have met some who truly never well. You can change, and work for it all you want - but if your map is screwed up, you may not like where you end up. That's if you even realize it is.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Someday you will be a post-Socionics bodhisattva like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Yes. I like this a lot. Silverchris, are you sure you're IEI? lol, just kidding...
    I type him IEE, FTR. I find him somewhat similar to you or consentingadult - aka not neurotic IEE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Someday you will be a post-Socionics bodhisattva like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Yes. I like this a lot. Silverchris, are you sure you're IEI? lol, just kidding...
    I type him IEE, FTR. I find him somewhat similar to you or consentingadult - aka not neurotic IEE.
    You think I'm not neurotic? If I weren't, I wouldn't be here But thanks anyway!

    I really do not know what Silverchris's type is, I have never met him, or even seen a picture or video of him, so there is no way for me to tell. But going by his posts, I can not see him any other type then IEE. Or I must be IEI too.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    I think, with some common sense anyone can deal with those things silverchris mentioned. But, there's something that I was thinking about, that maybe socionics does help explain. My relationship with my parents is good. I respect both of them, and like them, and we usually get along, and can have a lot of fun together. However, when I spend any amount of time around either or both of them, or even talk much on the phone, I get paranoid and anxious and depressed. And it can take awhile for me to work out of that state. Too much time around them and I actually start shutting down, where my emotional range goes to zero, and I become machine-like in how I function. Granted, there are benefits to being a machine, but I can go into that state when needed on my own without the depression and anxiety and paranoia that I first have to go through and stays with me on a background level with them.

    How is it that something that seems fine on the surface has such a negative impact on me? I think this IS socionics related. I recently just spent an entire month with my dad, and I have all these various states of decompression to go through now just to get back to being myself again. The way we help, or harm each other isn't always in an overt, obvious way. Some of that is socionics related, and some is general mental health related. But, we do have an influence on the people around us, and they on us in ways of which we're not always aware.

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    One more off-topic, sry:
    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You think I'm not neurotic? If I weren't, I wouldn't be here But thanks anyway!
    Okay, then no more neurotic than the forum average . Apparently that surplus of neuroticism is inversely proportional to one's level of inquisitiveness, and it often correlates with a pack mentality.

    And I forgot about stanprollyright (not neurotic), there may be others I don't remember.
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    Variety of things:

    1) Of course you don't need socionics to understand that people have irreconcilable and fundamental differences. But, you can use socionics to help you determine when your difference is due to a lack of knowledge, different life circumstances, etc., and when it is due to something inherent in the way you and another person think.

    I think it's silly to chalk up all interpersonal differences to life circumstances. Surely we've all had the experience of meeting two siblings and finding one delightful and the other repugnant. Or surely we've all met a friend's parents and thought "oh my god, how did this wonderful person come out of this horrible monster," (or vice versa). But of course, this is a fundamental question about nature and nurture. In all such cases, I find the most probable answer is "a little bit of both."

    And so, as I said above, socionics is helpful because it helps you to tell which is at play, and, as is most often the case, when both are at play, it helps you to treat each cause of disagreement appropriately. Rather than yammering away with different analogies from your perspective (which might work with someone with a different life circumstance but a similar attitude towards life), it teaches you when you need to shift tactics altogether, or perhaps find an "interpreter" who speaks both your languages.

    So that's why I think that socionics can still account for many interpersonal differences, even once we recognize that much of our interpersonal differences do arise from life cirumstances. And perhaps a better division is conscious (easier to change) and unconscious (harder to change), as unconscious processing of early life circumstances is a huge part of what makes up type, in my opinion.

    2) A fair-minded person does not an IEE make. I think that retyping is a case of focusing a little too much on external behavior, and too little on internal thought pattern. While I certainly do believe what I've written, the fact that it is a rather stereotypically Delta NF proposition, that we should focus on our natural differences and using tools of knowledge to help alleviate those natural differences and bridge that gap is less important than the thought process I used to get there, and the language used to communicate it, both of which I believe are more indicative of Beta NF than Delta NF.

    Also, SLIs confuse the shit out of me.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    ... Also, SLIs confuse the shit out of me.
    Are you afraid of them as well? Do you feel like they make you walk on eggshells (in situations of close interaction)?
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Socionics is just a tool that helps you tolerate people a little more...

    Good job, silverchris9!
    N-EII ~~~ 6>1 sp/so ~~~ INFJ

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