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Thread: Subtypes: Do They Exist?

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    No they don't. I've never in my life seen or heard of an EII Fi or Ne subtype....they are made up to include such individuals as SEE but really going with EII Ne or SEI but I think EII Ne fits as close as I can get it...BS. There's no such thing as a subtype. There are a katrillion degrees and combination of functional development in all degrees for example EII with extreme Fi and a side of shake and fries to go with that...oh sorry, wth am I doing. I mean yes there can be Functional development with different life experiences but that does not change a person's type nor does it give them a subtype.
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  2. #42
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    I used to think that there have to be subtypes in order to account for the differences among people of the same type, but I am now inclined to believe that enneagram types make of many of these differences.

    That being said, I still believe that subtypes exist, but then everybody says I am Fi subtype while I believe I am Ne subtype, so what do I know?
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    The better question to me is not whether or not subtypes make sense(they make sense), but whether or not subtype changes. There's no real reason for a subtype to remain static.

    If there is somehow a static subtype based on preference mechanism than subtype will have more meaning than the empirical subtyping that occurs today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    by strong you mean demonstrated?

    According to your system it becomes almost impossible to make a difference between a Ne-LII and a Ti-ILE. A weaker HA is similar to the suggestive IE
    Funny you should mention that, my brother is a Ti-ILE while I am a Ne-LII. The most obvious difference is that he is an extrovert while I am an introvert. There is a reason those were the two most basic types identified by Jung.

    There are plenty of ways to tell mirror types apart. They would have different base functions, different temperaments, and would be different on 6 / 11 Reinin dichotomies (although the only one of these I've actually had success using is positivst / negativist).

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    You could be right that subtypes bring more harm(justifying misstypes) than help.



    by strong you mean demonstrated?

    According to your system it becomes almost impossible to make a difference between a Ne-LII and a Ti-ILE. A weaker HA is similar to the suggestive IE

    Edit: what doesn't mean it's unvaluable
    I think once someone really understand people they shouldn't mix up mirrors. They're actually very different in many ways.

    Mirrors have opposing temperaments which make this a fairly easy analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    Funny you should mention that, my brother is a Ti-ILE while I am a Ne-LII. The most obvious difference is that he is an extrovert while I am an introvert. There is a reason those were the two most basic types identified by Jung.

    There are plenty of ways to tell mirror types apart. They would have different base functions, different temperaments, and would be different on 6 / 11 Reinin dichotomies (although the only one of these I've actually had success using is positivst / negativist).
    why were these the two most basic types? tell me the story
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think once someone really understand people they shouldn't mix up mirrors. They're actually very different in many ways.

    Mirrors have opposing temperaments which make this a fairly easy analysis.
    Concerning other persons I don't have problems to tell mirrors appart but I lack somehow the introspection to decide my own temparament. Concerning temparaments I know this source http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...8-Temperaments has someone something better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I used to think that there have to be subtypes in order to account for the differences among people of the same type, but I am now inclined to believe that enneagram types make of many of these differences.

    That being said, I still believe that subtypes exist, but then everybody says I am Fi subtype while I believe I am Ne subtype, so what do I know?
    Subtypes are anyway a scale and maybe even not static like @hkkmr said so it also makes sense when you're in the middle of the scale and don't relate to a certain subtype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I used to think that there have to be subtypes in order to account for the differences among people of the same type, but I am now inclined to believe that enneagram types make of many of these differences.

    That being said, I still believe that subtypes exist, but then everybody says I am Fi subtype while I believe I am Ne subtype, so what do I know?
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    The better question to me is not whether or not subtypes make sense(they make sense), but whether or not subtype changes. There's no real reason for a subtype to remain static.

    If there is somehow a static subtype based on preference mechanism than subtype will have more meaning than the empirical subtyping that occurs today.
    I got Dave Grohl as a good example of a subtype shift happening over the duration of almost two decades. Ne-IEE in '95, Fi-IEE now. I got temperaments as positioning of the IE stuff, and raw valuation of them as specific to an individual, and it'll take a while for it to change if and when it does. The names and subtypes are a best-fit kinda thing to each individual, every one of which is gonna be different, and there's gonna be different shit going on even within these pools that likely has to do with these values. Focus as specifically or as widely as you find useful and/or doable.
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    I see subtypes making sense on a perceptual/experiential level. there are two things I've noticed. one is the natural emphasis placed on valued functions (and to a lesser extent, unvalued functions) that subtypes engender, the other is the way a given type applies 'maintenance' to its valued functions, understood in the context of subtype. an example would be how Ti-ILEs naturally emphasize Si more, but apply more conscious maintenance to Fe. I'll explain more.

    a common exhibit of subtypes is p-sub J's seeming more 'irrational,' reactive, more experiential, whatever. there are underlying functional patterns that make this apparent, as with Fe-IEIs being more pointed and direct in attitude and presentation.

    an Ni-IEI naturally focuses more on Ti, but an Ni-EIE naturally focuses more on Se. the explanation is to be found in temperaments. rationality is about perceptual linearity, applying a context of judgment to the environment, whereas with irrationals context evolves with the environment. focusing on Ni->Se is a way of ensuring optimal transitions, and a sense of completion; whereas for the IEI-Ni, focusing on Ti allows for greater perceptual continuity. the pattern is that with irrational subtypes, either two contact/inert functions are emphasized, with one accepting and one producing; in this way irrationals 'do opposite things in the same way'; the reverse is the case for rationals.

    the second portion has to do with applied maintenance, the way each temperament comports itself to its functional combination. a Ti-ILE applies maintenance to Fe, and Si is maintained through Ne; an Ne-LII applies maintenance to Fe, and Si is maintained via Ti. so, in terms of natural emphasis, rationals situate themselves on a functional axis; whereas irrationals situate themselves in a functional 'realm.' the reverse is true with applied maintenance, as irrationals need to 'hold down' the complementary function of their subtype; they situate themselves on a functional axis to maintain a relatively ordered mode of communication between functions; whereas rationals apply maintenance to the function in the same realm as their base subtype function, which gives broader context to an otherwise overly-linear mode of processing. the pattern here is that irrationals are either two producing/accepting, with one inert and one contact (applying the same method in differing ways b/c of variation) and rationals two inert/contact and one producing and accepting (applying differing methods in the same way to control variation).


    edit: one other thing I've noticed is that p-subs in general tend to process information in a more reactive way, whereas j-subs seem to exert a degree of control in this regard. This can help differentiate between the open-endedness irrationals will allow and how, say, a p-sub will 'wait' for additional info.
    Last edited by strrrng; 12-28-2013 at 11:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    I had a short PM conversation with a forum member I won't name because it was via PM. Obviously this person is invited to bring himself/herself in.

    The point was that subtypes (e.g. Ni-ILI,Ne-ILI) are not deducible from Model A. From a Model A point of view there's no reason for subtypes but I also don't see something that rules them out.

    From a Jungian POV they make IMO sense.
    Jung writes in his chapter x about archetypes who are rare in real life (e.g the extroverted thinking type, the introverted feeling type etc.). He also writes that normally an individual develops a second function who must be either perceiving if the individual is a rational type or judging if the individual is a irrational type but it's left out if it this second function has to be introverted or extroverted. IMO it makes sense that Augusta and Myers Briggs thought that the second function has to be introverted when the main is extroverted and extroverted when the main is introverted. But I think that there are exeptions. Anyway I am derailing. I interpret Jung in the way that the second function varies a lot from strenght and the weaker the second function is the closer is an individual to the Jungian archetype.

    Therefore subtypes make a lot of sense according to Jung. Even though they're not deductible from Model A they don't clash with it too and that makes them at least for me valuable in Socionics.

    I know it's kind of obvious what I wrote but I'd like to hear your opinions about subtypes.
    Yes for the simple reason that personalities are more diverse than the 16 types traditional socionics provides, study enough real people and that becomes evident

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    That being said, I still believe that subtypes exist, but then everybody says I am Fi subtype while I believe I am Ne subtype, so what do I know?
    This is the fallacious reasoning that is deeply rooted in socionics and other personality theories. One regards abstract thought constructs as things of substance and starts forming beliefs around them. The thought process of an individual fiddling with personality theories becomes very similar to that of a religious critic trying to prove or disprove the existence of a deity. That being said, Socionics subtypes exist as much as main Socionics types exist. They exist as abstract theoretically defined construct extensions deduced from abstract psychological models (Model A, etc) and as nothing else.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Yes for the simple reason that personalities are more diverse than the 16 types traditional socionics provides, study enough real people and that becomes evident
    Study enough real people and it becomes evident that personalities are more diverse than the 32 types non-traditional subtype-inclusive socionics provides.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    IEI-Ni's and IEI-Fe's are totally fucking different. One ponders the meaning of existence and doesn't get off their ass, the other is up and about partying, slutting about. Well, both are sluts actually. But one is more inclined to threesomes while the other is not. I read that in a book.
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    I don't see any reason that subtypes of the ego functions couldn't exist. It makes about as much sense as the rest of Socionics. Someone would have to be neurotic in some way to have a subtype outside of their ego block though, and I'd like to think that such a thing would be temporary. I also see no reason at all that subtypes couldn't change. I guess I'd rather call a non-ego block "subtype" a focus instead though.

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    subtypes only make sense if you can be a base subtype in the morning and a creative subtype in the evening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Study enough real people and it becomes evident that personalities are more diverse than the 32 types non-traditional subtype-inclusive socionics provides.
    DCNH has 64 personality types by the way, nevertheless, the point is true that people are more different than the theories can explain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    DCNH has 64 personality types by the way, nevertheless, the point is true that people are more different than the theories can explain
    Huh. I skimmed the wiki, and I would probably be a Se "subtype". And I know a probable EIE Ne subtype. Weird.

    I think differences in genetic make up, experience, and environment could explain other variations reasonably well. And perhaps Enneagram type.

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