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Thread: Subtypes: Do They Exist?

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    Default Subtypes: Do They Exist?

    I'm beginning to think that they don't exist anymore and that they're an over analysis of something that is too complex that will result in a gross miscalculation based on ideas that are created with misused evidence. In reality instead of subtypes existing, I have another idea. That people of all types go through "modes" where they happen to be using a specific function more than the other. For instance take an ILI that is going through mode will appear to be more structured and pragmatic at that "moment". An ILI going through mode will appear to be more laid back and strange.

    This is basically the type using the function that they feel at that moment is most suitable. That being in the wrong function mode would be inappropriate or make things difficult. Subtypes can clearly be interpreted then as someone having a preference to use a certain type of function mode more often than the other one. However, the problem I have with them is they give you a false impression that subtypes are a deeper way of separating individuals of the same time, when they are not.

    It is a highly superfluous way to separate people of the same type because the mode that an individual is more likely to engage in does not actually indicate what kind of person they are beyond their standard personality type. My main point isn't that subtypes don't exist. They may exist if you interpret them to exist in that form, you can interpret subtypes to be merely "modes" that a type is going through at a specific moment. This is simply because in the end, most people switch between both of their subtypes depending on who they are dealing with, what kind of situation they're in or the type of mood they are in. Also people may act like a specific subtype for one day and then act like the other subtype for another day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler
    However, the problem I have with them is they give you a false impression that subtypes are a deeper way of separating individuals of the same time, when they are not.
    Yeah see, this is exactly how I envision subtypes to be: subdivisions of each main type.

    From what I've observed, subtype is more than just a "mode" that people can phase through. Subtype seems like a pretty clearly static and conscious bent towards one IE over another. You seem to think of subtype as something that's more fluid than it probably really is. I've known ENTps who are regularly more Ne bent, and ENTps who are much more overtly Ti focused. If what people called "subtype" was something transient, then I'd also have a big issue with it since there'd be no way of really categorizing it. But if you keep subtype static, then it's much more easy to document it and keep track of what you're actually looking at.

    also lol @ INTp Ni coming off as "strange."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler
    However, the problem I have with them is they give you a false impression that subtypes are a deeper way of separating individuals of the same time, when they are not.
    Yeah see, this is exactly how I envision subtypes to be: subdivisions of each main type.

    From what I've observed, subtype is more than just a "mode" that people can phase through. Subtype seems like a pretty clearly static and conscious bent towards one IE over another. You seem to think of subtype as something that's more fluid than it probably really is. I've known ENTps who are regularly more Ne bent, and ENTps who are much more overtly Ti focused. If what people called "subtype" was something transient, then I'd also have a big issue with it since there'd be no way of really categorizing it. But if you keep subtype static, then it's much more easy to document it and keep track of what you're actually looking at.

    also lol @ INTp Ni coming off as "strange."
    Funny, since you claim Jungian roots, and the man himself said that ALL of the psychological type was "not static," verbatim.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    People have done crazier things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Funny, since you claim Jungian roots, and the man himself said that ALL of the psychological type was "not static," verbatim.
    Yeah, that was weird of him.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Of all the things that Carl Jung ever said, that, I think, is not in a higher percentile.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    I'm beginning to think that they don't exist anymore and that they're an over analysis of something that is too complex that will result in a gross miscalculation based on ideas that are created with misused evidence.
    This is such an IEE thing to say
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Default Subtypes ... Do they exist?

    Hey guys, I was wondering what everyone's opinions on subtypes were...does everyone agree that they exist? Are they accepted by mainstream socionics? Could it just be people's different social situations, upbringing, that make them act in a different way within type? Do you like pudding? etc. etc.

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    it is my own opinion that most people don't benefit from narrowing down typings further from 16 types. most people are even best off typing less narrowly than 16 types (for example, type people as ExFj).

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    Subtypes will become useful only in a community where everyone's regular type is agreed upon almost unanimously. Otherwise it's affects are negligible, and energy is much better spent diagnosing/GatheringEvidenceFor regular type.

    However there is much material in the Russian literature that mentions small hints about behaviors displayed by subtypes in the 2 subtype system. For someone who has an extensive list of many of the same type, attaching accepting/producing subtypes shouldn't be too difficult (when compared to DCNH etc.)
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Sure!

    Subtypes are either Accepting or Producing; all Accepting functions of a person will be either Perceiving or Judging, and all Producing functions of that particular person will be the remaining one out of the two, so I keep that in mind while weighing a person against the average of their specific type to get the subtype. Suggestive and Mobilizing functions are good to look at, in addition to the stuff in the Ego block...

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    it is my own opinion that most people don't benefit from narrowing down typings further from 16 types. most people are even best off typing less narrowly than 16 types (for example, type people as ExFj).
    Yes on this too

    I go on a case-by-case basis; some people will fall within a narrow bandwidth typewise, other people will cover more ground, and each specific person will do so in a different way, no matter how subtle. Some people are heavily dualized, some people have a strong access to their Role function, some people use what's in their Id block... hell, with the thing I did in the typing sheet thread with the math and all, I think I used my Polr without falling square on my ass somehow...

    On the issue of the typing sheet, you'll see cases in which it was easier for me to see subtype than to pinpoint a specific type itself, I've got a few "Se/Ni Jx-xxFp"s and stuff like that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    Do you like pudding? etc. etc.
    Troll alert!

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    "Troll Alert!" ...jeez are you like eight or something?

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    someone hit the trap button.

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    From my extensive observation and study of the subject, I am satisfactorily convinced that subtypes do in fact exist. From what I can tell, they're part of what Jung called the "Persona", the image of yourself that you project to the world.

    When one has accumulated enough experience identifying sociotypes, one begins to notice that there are differences in behaviour between various people of the same type. Upon close observation, the behavioural differences can be reliably divided into groups. Some people are satisfied to divide members of each type into two groups, others further divide those two in half to make four, and so on up to sixteen.

    Based on what I've seen, it's my opinion that subtype is a full second type which exists in the Persona. It develops in childhood when the person discovers that his normal mode of behaviour, springing from his unmodified base type, produces unfavourable results. An Alpha child with Delta parents, for example, may develop a Delta "mask" or persona that he wears in an effort to get a favourable response from them. When the child grows up, these behavioural patterns become ingrained, as the person's habitual method of interacting with the world.
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    Isn't the persona essentially b.s. thought?
    Also, do you think it's maybe possible that people's unique experiences and society around them are to blame for the differences in their behavior within a type?

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    well the 2 subtypes exist because they have clear distinct behaviour.

    simply put:

    producing subtypes talks to others.
    accepting subtypes talk to themselves and let others listen along.

    you'll understand what is meant with this once you notice it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    well the 2 subtypes exist because they have clear distinct behaviour.

    simply put:

    producing subtypes talks to others.
    accepting subtypes talk to themselves and let others listen along.

    you'll understand what is meant with this once you notice it.


    I know exactly what you mean, and if that's the case, I'll solidify myself even further as an Accepting subtype... I never thought to link the two...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyst Trevor View Post
    some people can clearly be subtyped

    others? ..shrug..

    i only use two subtypes system btw
    Yep. If they can't be easily subtyped...they're some kind of crossover.
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    All functions are subordinate to the dominant. I don't see how subtypes can be identified.
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    even if the subtypes existed (which they probably don't) it doesn't make a difference because you can't use them. 16 type typings are already too complex for anyone to handle, as demonstrated by the extreme amount of controversy arising from EVERY SINGLE typing debate.

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    nicely said labcoat. my thoughts exactly

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    even if the subtypes existed (which they probably don't) it doesn't make a difference because you can't use them. 16 type typings are already too complex for anyone to handle, as demonstrated by the extreme amount of controversy arising from EVERY SINGLE typing debate.
    But we are typing on an internet forum based on text and videos so controversy should be expected. This is far from the best environment for typing people.

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    All of you kids. All of you kids can just shut the fuck up. You don't know shit about psychology. You hear me? You don't know shit! Back in my day we didn't just log on to some fucking computer and write whatever garbage came to mind! No! - we fucking meditated on hard-ass fucking rocks in a field somewhere until the lipids in our muscles collected so densely they had to move into our brains because there was no fucking room! And then when they did, we had fucking hallucinations of Buddha and Jesus and fuckers like that! You hear me?? We talked to mother fucking Buddha! And here, you all think you can just read some bull shit on the internet and call yourselves geniuses! Well fuck you, and fuck your subtypes. And fuck Aushra for ruining my theory. That bitch has nothing on me. Your either a fucking extraverted Intuitive with a little God damned bit of introverterd thinking, or your not! Fucking simple as that. And if you think different then you can go fuck yourself, have a fucking conversation with Buddha, Socrates, and Aristotle and then get back to me you little fuckers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung View Post
    All of you kids. All of you kids can just shut the fuck up. You don't know shit about psychology. You hear me? You don't know shit! Back in my day we didn't just log on to some fucking computer and write whatever garbage came to mind! No! - we fucking meditated on hard-ass fucking rocks in a field somewhere until the lipids in our muscles collected so densely they had to move into our brains because there was no fucking room! And then when they did, we had fucking hallucinations of Buddha and Jesus and fuckers like that! You hear me?? We talked to mother fucking Buddha! And here, you all think you can just read some bull shit on the internet and call yourselves geniuses! Well fuck you, and fuck your subtypes. And fuck Aushra for ruining my theory. That bitch has nothing on me. Your either a fucking extraverted Intuitive with a little God damned bit of introverterd thinking, or your not! Fucking simple as that. And if you think different then you can go fuck yourself, have a fucking conversation with Buddha, Socrates, and Aristotle and then get back to me you little fuckers.
    Fuck yeah, that's what I'm talking about!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    "Troll Alert!" ...jeez are you like eight or something?
    "Do you like pudding?" do you take us for clowns or what?

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    I mean...look at your f*cking icon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    Isn't the random undefined word I'm using here meaningless?
    Also, do you think perhaps we can confuse this issue via the mind/body problem and push it aside?
    Well that's one strategy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    I am wrong. I don't know what I'm talking about.
    Enough ego can compensate for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by labocat View Post
    I don't know if they exist either way, but whimsically I want to say no since I didn't come up with the idea myself. The idea serves me no function at the moment. A more detailed analysis is not useful to me, or anyone. Most people don't understand subtypes anyway.
    Intriguing...
    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    nicely said labcoat. my thoughts exactly
    Yes, now we can put this to rest.

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    It makes more sense, as opposed to having 16 sharply defined and internally homogeneous typings, to have that which causes typings to exist to seamlessly meld into each other, and for typings to occupy a certain amount of space in that continuum. Crossing a boundary at the far ends of this territory should only be jarring in the same way that crossing a US state line is; the definitions and words to define the location changes abruptly, but the real and existing geography itself changes as gradually as it otherwise would:

    place - EP - - IP - - EJ - - IJ -
    .0000 - -ILE - -SEI - -ESE - -LII
    .0625 Ti-ILE Fe-SEI Fe-ESE Ti-LII
    .1250 Ti- LE Fe- EI Fe-E E Ti-L I
    .1875 Ti-SLE Fe-IEI Fe-EIE Ti-LSI
    .2500 - -SLE - -IEI - -EIE - -LSI
    .3125 Se-SLE Ni-IEI Ni-EIE Se-LSI
    .3750 Se-S E Ni-I I Ni- IE Se- SI
    .4375 Se-SEE Ni-ILI Ni-LIE Se-ESI
    .5000 - -SEE - -ILI - -LIE - -ESI
    .5625 Fi-SEE Te-ILI Te-LIE Fi-ESI
    .6250 Fi- EE Te- LI Te-L E Fi-E I
    .6875 Fi-IEE Te-SLI Te-LSE Fi-EII
    .7500 - -IEE - -SLI - -LSE - -EII
    .8125 Ne-IEE Si-SLI Si-LSE Ne-EII
    .8750 Ne-I E Si-S I Si- SE Ne- II
    .9375 Ne-ILE Si-SEI Si-ESE Ne-LII


    If/when I get a printer working, I should really do up a Mobius strip with these color values in gradients...

    P.S. this got me to thinking about how much space a person would occupy on this; their range of "place", its average position, etc., and that the size of these spaces will vary, as will the midpoint within each person-specific range; this could be extended to all sorts of dichotomies, and I'm thinking up how a physical model would be made of this... and yes, it's a lot less rigid looking and much more analog and loose when my mind kinda does these approximations without really going nuts over numbers and shit...

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    All models are invented. Their accuracy in their descriptiveness varies within the perceiver. People are easily fooled think that there is nothing outside them.

    There are no concepts I couldn't ever use to put the perceived reality in frames of a description.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labocat View Post
    it is my own opinion that most people don't benefit from narrowing down typings further from 16 types. most people are even best off typing less narrowly than 16 types (for example, type people as ExFj).
    But you would agree that to a psychologist, nothing less than the best possible accuracy suffices?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    well the 2 subtypes exist because they have clear distinct behaviour.

    simply put:

    producing subtypes talks to others.
    accepting subtypes talk to themselves and let others listen along.

    you'll understand what is meant with this once you notice it.
    Hmm... I'm definitely an Ne subtype, but I often talk to myself. Always have. Could be promise here, but needs more research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    From my extensive observation and study of the subject, I am satisfactorily convinced that subtypes do in fact exist. From what I can tell, they're part of what Jung called the "Persona", the image of yourself that you project to the world.

    When one has accumulated enough experience identifying sociotypes, one begins to notice that there are differences in behaviour between various people of the same type. Upon close observation, the behavioural differences can be reliably divided into groups. Some people are satisfied to divide members of each type into two groups, others further divide those two in half to make four, and so on up to sixteen.

    Based on what I've seen, it's my opinion that subtype is a full second type which exists in the Persona. It develops in childhood when the person discovers that his normal mode of behaviour, springing from his unmodified base type, produces unfavourable results. An Alpha child with Delta parents, for example, may develop a Delta "mask" or persona that he wears in an effort to get a favourable response from them. When the child grows up, these behavioural patterns become ingrained, as the person's habitual method of interacting with the world.
    Now people will be even more confused.

    I see it really simply. There are two types and a subtype. Each of these three systems is part of what makes you up. All three are created from a combination of social pressures and biological factors. Biological aptitude gives competitive results. No one wants to be a loser, so they adopt the behavioral patterns associated with their "type".

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    Default Do subtypes make sense?

    I had a short PM conversation with a forum member I won't name because it was via PM. Obviously this person is invited to bring himself/herself in.

    The point was that subtypes (e.g. Ni-ILI,Ne-ILI) are not deducible from Model A. From a Model A point of view there's no reason for subtypes but I also don't see something that rules them out.

    From a Jungian POV they make IMO sense.
    Jung writes in his chapter x about archetypes who are rare in real life (e.g the extroverted thinking type, the introverted feeling type etc.). He also writes that normally an individual develops a second function who must be either perceiving if the individual is a rational type or judging if the individual is a irrational type but it's left out if it this second function has to be introverted or extroverted. IMO it makes sense that Augusta and Myers Briggs thought that the second function has to be introverted when the main is extroverted and extroverted when the main is introverted. But I think that there are exeptions. Anyway I am derailing. I interpret Jung in the way that the second function varies a lot from strenght and the weaker the second function is the closer is an individual to the Jungian archetype.

    Therefore subtypes make a lot of sense according to Jung. Even though they're not deductible from Model A they don't clash with it too and that makes them at least for me valuable in Socionics.

    I know it's kind of obvious what I wrote but I'd like to hear your opinions about subtypes.

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    Experientially subtypes make sense, but I would agree that there doesn't seem to be anything within Model A that would explain how 'accentuation' of functions occurs, which is a prerequisite for existence of subtypes.

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    I can make almost anything make sense to me. Just strip out that which is contradictory.

    I cant fathom how a concept would be deductibly provable or why thats necassary.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I never use subtypes because they complicate everything, adding a byzantine dimension to what should be a simple theory. That, and I find people using subtypes to justify typings that don't make sense: "so and so isn't a typical LIE because of this or that subtype", etc.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    My typing system is premised on the notion that types are information processing mechanisms which interact with more basic - genetic and socially conditioned - personalities. Subtypes are an attempt to attach functions to things that are outside their scope.


    That said, subtyping systems like DCNH are useful as a way of filtering out non-type related factors, allowing for more rigorous typings. E.g. Extreme curiosity isn't necessarily an IxE trait (it's a C subtype trait) even if there's a slight correlation => look for other clues. Enneagram is also useful to the same end.
    Last edited by xerx; 12-15-2013 at 08:29 AM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    I interpret subtypes in terms of the balance between the creative and mobilizing functions.

    In Creative subtypes, the balance is heavily tilted towards the creative function. These types are totally unable to neglect their creative function, but they are less obviously influenced by the HA.

    Inert subtypes OTOH have creative and mobilizing functions that are about equally prominent. Si-SEIs for example are characteristically unemotional and reserved ( and about equally pronounced). Ne-ILEs are far more sociable and warm / friendly (strong ) than their creative-subtype identicals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I never use subtypes because they complicate everything, adding a byzantine dimension to what should be a simple theory. That, and I find people using subtypes to justify typings that don't make sense: "so and so isn't a typical LIE because of this or that subtype", etc.
    You could be right that subtypes bring more harm(justifying misstypes) than help.

    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    I interpret subtypes in terms of the balance between the creative and mobilizing functions.

    In Creative subtypes, the balance is heavily tilted towards the creative function. These types are totally unable to neglect their creative function, but they are less obviously influenced by the HA.

    Inert subtypes OTOH have creative and mobilizing functions that are about equally prominent. Si-SEIs for example are characteristically unemotional and reserved ( and about equally pronounced). Ne-ILEs are far more sociable and warm / friendly (strong ) than their creative-subtype identicals.
    by strong you mean demonstrated?

    According to your system it becomes almost impossible to make a difference between a Ne-LII and a Ti-ILE. A weaker HA is similar to the suggestive IE

    Edit: what doesn't mean it's unvaluable

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