Bad relations with your dual, good relations with your conflict

[Jonathan]

This thread is inspired by the notorious "I'm An ESE!" thread, but I don't dare post there. I tried a few times, but hadn't really read the thread carefully before posting, so my comments came out all wrong, plus I don't feel I belong in that thread anyway.

But here's the issue: So you have an EIE and an LSI fighting, and it seems very bad. But the EIE recognizes the duality.

So here's the question: Have you experienced what you feel is duality with someone you loathe? What's it like, and what about it did you recognize as duality?

And to expand on this, have you ever experienced a conflict relation that was totally awesome? What was that like, and what made it feel like conflict even though it was so great?

[ScarlettLux]

I'm sorry but one last thing -- either he's not an LSI or I'm SEE. That's it. I refuse to acknowledge his existence. Seriously, you should delete or rename this thread.

[Sumer1an]

I'm sorry but one last thing -- either he's not an LSI or I'm SEE. That's it. I refuse to acknowledge his existence. Seriously, you should delete or rename this thread.

That seems like an ignorant response. Your duals aren't always going to be friendly to you.... and you are acknowledging his existence just by posting that comment. just sayin.

[krieger]

top level traits are what really determines compatibility. socionics type is just about stylistic details and a minor sense of awkwardness in the case of conflict.

[silke]

So here's the question: Have you experienced what you feel is duality with someone you loathe? What's it like, and what about it did you recognize as duality?

Yes. I've met a girl years ago that I believe was Ti-SLE who was almost sociopathic in nature. She had the propensity to stir up shit just for the sake of it, had been caught lying multiple times but had no regrets over it or that her lies have really hurt several other individuals. I really disliked her though she was my dual. Another person who had an uncanny ability to get under my skin and make me infuriated was also a Ti-creative. I do believe that people who share functions in common can influence each other more strongly but this doesn't always lead to positive relations.

And to expand on this, have you ever experienced a conflict relation that was totally awesome?

Awesome no, but generally amiable yes.

What was that like, and what made it feel like conflict even though it was so great?

It did not feel like conflict, only that socionics prescribed these relations to be conflicting. We never actually sparred or insulted one another and managed to work side-by-side just fine, though we never had to collaborate very closely.

These experiences are the reason why I try to not rely on my sentiments toward a person when typing them. I do consider them to be one of factors helpful in determining socio-type, but by far not a defining one.

[woofwoofl]

I played Magic: the Gathering in local tournaments (Type 1 usually), and there were LIIs everywhere, and we got along great! We also did Dungeons & Dragons lots... aaahh I miss that thing of people... might do a thing somewhere again!

 

I usually played these black discard decks with cards that ripped someone's entire hand out, blew up the entire board at times - forceful, railroading, anti-intellectual-on-the-surface beast of a play strategy that got me a consistent 2nd place there (which meant booster packs, and therefore, money), as well as the ire, respect, and fanboyism of lots of people there... had a little posse of dudes (sometimes just me and the LSE) who went at it in my style, I made them really good deals so we could get each others' backs and take the whole place by force!

The LIIs weren't part of any of that, but we got on pretty good, and we held each other in high regard, though we confused each other lots - it was the ILEs, if I remember right as far as people go, who hated my methods

[DirectorAbbie]

[spoiler=NERRRRRDDDD]I usually played these black discard decks with cards that ripped someone's entire hand out, blew up the entire board at times - forceful, railroading, anti-intellectual-on-the-surface beast of a play strategy that got me a consistent 2nd place there (which meant booster packs, and therefore, money), as well as the ire, respect, and fanboyism of lots of people there... had a little posse of dudes (sometimes just me and the LSE) who went at it in my style, I made them really good deals so we could get each others' backs and take the whole place by force!

The LIIs weren't part of any of that, but we got on pretty good, and we held each other in high regard, though we confused each other lots - it was the ILEs, if I remember right as far as people go, who hated my methods

I never played that particular game, but I'm sure my style would be about as intellectual as yours.

[ScarlettLux]

I'm sorry but one last thing -- either he's not an LSI or I'm SEE. That's it. I refuse to acknowledge his existence. Seriously, you should delete or rename this thread.

That seems like an ignorant response. Your duals aren't always going to be friendly to you.... and you are acknowledging his existence just by posting that comment. just sayin.

i'm being facetious really.

i think it's merely a matter of him just not being a nice person. being nice and having empathy/sympathy -- that's a top level trait imo

[Aleksei]

So here's the question: Have you experienced what you feel is duality with someone you loathe?

A number of times, but the conflict was entirely ideological.

And to expand on this, have you ever experienced a conflict relation that was totally awesome?

Not really. SLIs are excruciatingly boring.

[Sumer1an]

That seems like an ignorant response. Your duals aren't always going to be friendly to you.... and you are acknowledging his existence just by posting that comment. just sayin.

i'm being facetious really.

i think it's merely a matter of him just not being a nice person. being nice and having empathy/sympathy -- that's a top level trait imo

Ah... ok I see. Its whatever really. Not a big deal.

[Suz]

I am currently in "enemy" status with a dual. I think we both recognized the duality, but just did things to hurt each other from a distance without really any way to reconcile things. Despite that I always think fondly of him, and I do love him--I wish we could be friends at this point, and i've mentioned this in an email to him, but i guess he didn't feel the same way because he never responded. Maybe he needs in person communication, but we live in different cities now so that's not practically feasible. Or maybe he hasn't forgiven me yet. The minute he shows me he wants to be friends again, I'm there.

Interrelating with the conflictors i know of hasn't been a BAD BAD interaction per se, but more like you're communicating in foreign languages to each other and bringing up topics the other is uncomfortable with, and just not being able to bring the psychological distance closer than acquaintance, really.

[The Ineffable]

@Jonathan: the OP makes the assumption that Discojoe is a Beta, but have you typed him before? He was never a LSI, read his posts then read the descriptions, it makes absolutely no sense.

He's dramatic, provocative, everything he says, he says on a whim, just to begin with. (first hint: Ethical Extrovert) He gets angry everytime someone attempts to demonstrate the logical impossibility or inconsistency of what he says, like here. (second hint: Ti-PoLR) He knows only one thing: he wants things his way, regardless of their logical impossibility. He's bitching all the time, often writes with CAPS, has no apparent constructive purpose in anything he says and rarely someone takes him seriously. Doesn't mess with logical people and never enters serious details in discussions, but he likes to stir drama and picks on emotionally reactive users who can be provoked (besides ScarlettLux, he also freaked out sarinana (1), another EIE - only from what I know). He enjoys posting controversial issues - racist, misogynistic, political - things he doesn't take seriously, but to obtain emotional reactions from others.
---

(1) - please note a twin locked thread of the ESE one, similar procedure, this is not an isolated case.

[chip]

I've had many bad relations with my duals. Simply put ESE tend to be sheepish and I do not have good PR (public relations) so I can easily be public enemy # 1 in their eyes. Frankly there is alot of people who I'm not on great terms with and that includes ESE. In all honesty, duality does not seem to matter much in the public domain. In private life I have very little connections with ESE and recently I contacted my ex ESE with the intent of getting back together. Its turned out for the worse. She was not genuinely interested. That is fairly standard.

Maybe its just me but ESE typically do not come to my rescue in the ethical domain. On the contrary they will smite and condemn me as much or even more than anyone or they simply have no effect, we are indifferent. I have a hard time understanding their communication style and vice versa. I've convinced myself so much that there will be one ESE who turn my world upside down and really be there for me when I need them.

I'm pleasantly surprised to have met alot of great SEE. I'm a bit skeptical of their real feelings towards me but generally I can get along with them even better than duals. I'm even attracted to some SEE and the attraction seems mutual.

[Suz]

I've had many bad relations with my duals. Simply put ESE tend to be sheepish and I do not have good PR (public relations) so I can easily be public enemy # 1 in their eyes. Frankly there is alot of people who I'm not on great terms with and that includes ESE. In all honesty, duality does not seem to matter much in the public domain. In private life I have very little connections with ESE and recently I contacted my ex ESE with the intent of getting back together. Its turned out for the worse. She was not genuinely interested. That is fairly standard.

Maybe its just me but ESE typically do not come to my rescue in the ethical domain. On the contrary they will smite and condemn me as much or even more than anyone or they simply have no effect, we are indifferent. I have a hard time understanding their communication style and vice versa. I've convinced myself so much that there will be one ESE who turn my world upside down and really be there for me when I need them.

I'm pleasantly surprised to have met alot of great SEE. I'm a bit skeptical of their real feelings towards me but generally I can get along with them even better than duals. I'm even attracted to some SEE and the attraction seems mutual.

Tbh the way you describe it, seems like ESEs are your conflictors. Maybe you are ILI, not LII?

[FDG]

I've had bad relationships with duals, the root of the problems wasn't socionics-related (whereas for example it's often socionics-related with LSEs), rather lifestyle, preferences, taste, politics, etc etc etc

[Suz]

I've had bad relationships with duals, the root of the problems wasn't socionics-related (whereas for example it's often socionics-related with LSEs), rather lifestyle, preferences, taste, politics, etc etc etc

I think this is key to the incompatibility between myself and that particular dual.

But on the other hand, duals are in different clubs and thus are probably going to have a lot of lifestyle differences, especially if they're undualized, no?

[discojoe]

I'm sorry but one last thing -- either he's not an LSI or I'm SEE. That's it. I refuse to acknowledge his existence. Seriously, you should delete or rename this thread.

I think you're overreacting.

[discojoe]

That seems like an ignorant response. Your duals aren't always going to be friendly to you.... and you are acknowledging his existence just by posting that comment. just sayin.

i'm being facetious really.

i think it's merely a matter of him just not being a nice person. being nice and having empathy/sympathy -- that's a top level trait imo

You're mean.

[FDG]

I've had bad relationships with duals, the root of the problems wasn't socionics-related (whereas for example it's often socionics-related with LSEs), rather lifestyle, preferences, taste, politics, etc etc etc

I think this is key to the incompatibility between myself and that particular dual.

But on the other hand, duals are in different clubs and thus are probably going to have a lot of lifestyle differences, especially if they're undualized, no?

Maybe, but that doesn't have to be a problem, since different does not mean always mean incompatible...sometimes it does though.

[The Ineffable]

DJ fights with all of his duals. Remember the long drawn out battles that he used to have with Gilly? Those were intense.

Indeed they're intense and fun, just that makes no sense regarding both the nature of Ti-Base types and their interactions with their Duals. That's not Duality, they can't get along for long IRL. Besides being exciting/tiresome for each other, it is the EIE - generally the Extrovert - who stirs/mobilizes the LSI.

Beyond anything, discojoe is not a LSI based on the model and theory, no speculation can change that.

[ScarlettLux]

I do agree with Ineffable's analysis. Or he could just be an asshat of a person, regardless of type. All I know is I have NEVER met an LSI that liked provoking anything. He will probably rationalize his behaviour as seeking some sort of but really, it's just making people hate him.

That is so true IME in real life with LSI friends, that I am ALWAYS the one to mobilize, activate, etc... they react to ME. LSIs are really quite proper and quite scared of offending people. I think it's role coming into play.

[stray]

That is so true IME in real life with LSI friends, that I am ALWAYS the one to mobilize, activate, etc... they react to ME. LSIs are really quite proper and quite scared of offending people. I think it's role coming into play.

I know a few like that too (females at least fwiw). There's one guy who is sort of like DiscoJoe at times... when he's drunk. lol. I'll just chalk it up to that for now.

[ScarlettLux]

DJ fights with all of his duals. Remember the long drawn out battles that he used to have with Gilly? Those were intense.

I would really hope that just because of DJ's asshattery and trolling... that the idea isn't spread about EIE/LSI duality being so tempestuous and ... hateful? Vindictive? No, that's definitely not what happens with my LSI friends and I.

Wow. ETA: I just read through Sarinana's thread and even though I now have DJ blocked, I could still see his posts mainly through reply quotes. All I have to say is... how is this guy even alive? Wow. Clearly her and I both hate him with a passion, simply because he's a douche. He is NOT LSI or we are NOT EIEs.

I know duality isn't always perfect, but duality is NOT that. Many people abhor DJ and yet there are still some odd defenders of him that I personally thought I liked but now am unsure.

He may just be typeless and operating at very low mental health level.

The main thing that stands out to me in this whole ordeal is his extreme preoccupation, obsession even, with winning, with domination. His whole spew to Sarinana about her feeling bad b/c he was dominating her? Her reply about "projection" was true beyond measure.

Is he often beaten down, or often was beaten down in life that now he must rely on online forums to win some form of power over others, mostly just perceived power? It's quite sad.

[Jonathan]

@Jonathan: the OP makes the assumption that Discojoe is a Beta, but have you typed him before? He was never a LSI, read his posts then read the descriptions, it makes absolutely no sense.

I've always regarded him as Beta ST. He doesn't exude Fi and is not like any Gamma SF I've ever met. However, there are other things going on that are not explained by Socionics. Perhaps he's using the forum to vent, or may be performing an experiment on forum members, or is trying to win a bet about how many people he can tick off within a certain time period. That makes him harder to type.

He's dramatic, provocative, everything he says, he says on a whim, just to begin with. (first hint: Ethical Extrovert)

He provokes others, but I'm not sure I'd call his posts dramatic.

He gets angry everytime someone attempts to demonstrate the logical impossibility or inconsistency of what he says, like here. (second hint: Ti-PoLR)

I don't think that's Ti-PoLR. There are a lot of misconceptions about what PoLR is. I've met a lot of IEEs and SEEs, and they don't get angry just because someone uses Ti, if indeed you were using Ti in that thread (at first glance, your argument there seemed more Te-oriented). Perhaps he responded to you the way he did because after a lengthy post, merely dismissing it altogether would be the maximal way to tick you off (possibly getting him closer to winning his bet?).

Doesn't mess with logical people and never enters serious details in discussions

I think it's consistent with Beta STs that they may not be into talking theory the way NTs are.

[The Ineffable]

LSIs are really quite proper and quite scared of offending people. I think it's role coming into play.

Yes, that's in fact that's a necessary consequence of the type descriptions themselves, let alone the model. Who doesn't acknowledge that fact is not even worth expressing an opinion on this type. One of the main thing that characterizes them, apart for tactful irony and well-placed remarks is sobriety.

If someone finds *anything* that over-the-top in any description of LSIs, please announce me.

[discojoe]

My main problem with EIEs is that I make them insecure about their knowledge/understanding of things, and they make me feel like some genetic mutation, which is probably a fair assessment.

[discojoe]

DJ fights with all of his duals. Remember the long drawn out battles that he used to have with Gilly? Those were intense.

I would really hope that just because of DJ's asshattery and trolling... that the idea isn't spread about EIE/LSI duality being so tempestuous and ... hateful? Vindictive? No, that's definitely not what happens with my LSI friends and I.

Wow. ETA: I just read through Sarinana's thread and even though I now have DJ blocked, I could still see his posts mainly through reply quotes. All I have to say is... how is this guy even alive? Wow. Clearly her and I both hate him with a passion, simply because he's a douche. He is NOT LSI or we are NOT EIEs.

I know duality isn't always perfect, but duality is NOT that. Many people abhor DJ and yet there are still some odd defenders of him that I personally thought I liked but now am unsure.

He may just be typeless and operating at very low mental health level.

The main thing that stands out to me in this whole ordeal is his extreme preoccupation, obsession even, with winning, with domination. His whole spew to Sarinana about her feeling bad b/c he was dominating her? Her reply about "projection" was true beyond measure.

Is he often beaten down, or often was beaten down in life that now he must rely on online forums to win some form of power over others, mostly just perceived power? It's quite sad.

Hey there.

The thing about LSIs being proper is true with me too, sassy lady. That's one of the main problems I've had at work. My ESE boss basically said to not worry about offending people. He actually said "Who cares, you're trying to help them. They're dumb if they don't listen."

Now I'm all cocky and good at it.

[discojoe]

And does anyone else see the tragic irony in SL's posts? In her unhinged ravings, she has committed every single offense of which she accused me. Hateful, hurtful, spiteful, nasty personal attacks and comments designed to cause genuine emotional harm. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Am I the only one that notices this?

[Jonathan]

If someone finds *anything* that over-the-top in any description of LSIs, please announce me.

It's possible...

He may assume that another’s simple disagreement, with his opinion, is an encroachment upon his status and immediately attack the position of the supposed aggressor.

....But there are also such moments when LSI suddenly flashes with fury – during these moments he finds it difficult to control himself.

Also, some of the famous people listed as possible LSI may be seen by others as "over the top."

I understand your points though....you make an interesting case for SEE. But again, there appear to be some non-type related things at play, and that may complicate the typing picture..

[The Ineffable]

I don't think that's Ti-PoLR. There are a lot of misconceptions about what PoLR is. I've met a lot of IEEs and SEEs, and they don't get angry just because someone uses Ti, if indeed you were using Ti in that thread (at first glance, your argument there seemed more Te-oriented). Perhaps he responded to you the way he did because after a lengthy post, merely dismissing it altogether would be the maximal way to tick you off (possibly getting him closer to winning his bet?).

It is not "that" which is Ti-PoLR, but his type, the whole, along with his. That was just an example. Also, that is no counter-argument that some Fi-Creative don't react angrily to Ti, for multiple reasons:
- it's not about XEEs, but LXI. It's Ti-Base that can't and won't react like that, on the other hand it's Fi-Creative that most likely can react like that;
- you ignore what's type-related involving what's not. There are a lot of factors why people in general would not react necessarily a certain manner, you can conclude nothing out of that, but out of what's actually a specific and type-related;
- you presume too much.

And yes, that was Ti. Everything regarding formal logic, logical correctness and implications, contradictions, deduction - these are not related to Te, but Ti. Premises->logical rules->conclusion. The only logic he ever used was factual or statistical, as seen in his economical and political theories. You put the problem as if I were talking about an isolated case; it's not, I'm talking about all his activity that I know of.

Besides, making silly bets for stirring people or whatever, pushing the EIEs out of Beta is anything but what a LSI would do. While you call the possible bet as such a reason, you don't ask yourself what's the reason to make such bets all the time in the first place... His temperament is typically Ep.
---

@your next posts: you throw all facts on NTR while nothing type-related supporting LSI stands, apart for the alleged "exceptions", which are not to be found in the descriptions. A type is based on the traits supporting that typing, when they are inexistent then it's not it, simple as that.

You misrepresented that quote of Filatova, that is not over-the-top and has nothing to do with DJ's consistently chaotic and provocative attitude.

[xerx]

top level traits are what really determines compatibility. socionics type is just about stylistic details and a minor sense of awkwardness in the case of conflict.

what are top-level traits?

[discojoe]

Yeah, Google ain't telling.

[Jonathan]

And yes, that was Ti. Everything regarding formal logic, logical correctness and implications, contradictions, deduction - these are not related to Te, but Ti. Premises->logical rules->conclusion.

Well that's a whole other discussion. Expat made a lot of logical points, but was generally understood as LIE. In some schools of Socionics, logic is by definition Ti, and Te is something else, having to do with raw facts, trivia, business, and productivity, or something like that. In other schools, logic isn't the domain of just Ti. But anyhow, my main point wasn't that your arguments weren't Ti (I'll take your word for it that they were, as I haven't followed that thread closely)....just that his reaction didn't prove Ti PoLR.

You put the problem as if I were talking about an isolated case; it's not, I'm talking about all his activity that I know of.

Well, my intention was merely to mention that certain arguments didn't disprove LSI. I'll admit that I haven't made a positive case for LSI, just a few observations. I'm not about to pore through all his posts. I don't see "consistently chaotic and provocative" as typical behavior for any type, including SEE.

You may make a good case for absence of demonstration of Ti strength; I think a similar one could be made for absence of demonstration of Fi strength. In an environment with more constructive interchanges between DJ and others, one might perceive his strengths better.

My main reason for this thread was too explore negative relations with duals and positive ones with conflict types in general, inspired more by Scarlettlux's comment in the other thread that she sensed the duality, even though it was a negative interchange, rather than by any specific typing of DJ on my part.

In any case, perhaps further discussion on DJ's type should be made in the DJ thread, since one exists for that topic.

[rat1]

Ineffible.. you are bolt aren't you?
I dont even see what's bad that DJ has done.

And does anyone else see the tragic irony in SL's posts? In her unhinged ravings, she has committed every single offense of which she accused me. Hateful, hurtful, spiteful, nasty personal attacks and comments designed to cause genuine emotional harm. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Am I the only one that notices this?

Yah, she acts obsessed with you. One minute she says "me and DJ are <3" next she's like "DJ is toilet scum", always feeling the need to announce this publicly.

[The Ineffable]

I dont even see what's bad that DJ has done.

I'm glad you asked, because I know it may sound that way: when I say chaotic, provocative or over-the-top, that does not mean I disagree with that. I'm over-the-top as well and some would argue I present the other traits, too, so...

[ScarlettLux]

Ineffible.. you are bolt aren't you?
I dont even see what's bad that DJ has done.

And does anyone else see the tragic irony in SL's posts? In her unhinged ravings, she has committed every single offense of which she accused me. Hateful, hurtful, spiteful, nasty personal attacks and comments designed to cause genuine emotional harm. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Am I the only one that notices this?

Yah, she acts obsessed with you. One minute she says "me and DJ are <3" next she's like "DJ is toilet scum", always feeling the need to announce this publicly.

You're such a fucking idiot seriously DJ. Fuck. TELL ME HOW THE FUCK DON'T YOU FUCKING THINK THAT YOUR ASIAN COMMENTS AREN'T FUCKING PERSONAL HURTFUL SPITEFUL NASTY

Genuine emotional harm? FUCK YOU I'M FUCKING REACTING TO YOUR FUCKING BULLSHIT. TELL ME HOW MY COMMENTS ABOUT YOUR PICTURES BEING IN FRONT OF A WEBCAM ARE WORSE THAN THE FUCKING COUNTLESS COMMENTS YOU'VE MADE ON HERE YOU UGLY BULLHEADED CANCER FREAK LOOKING LONER PIECE OF SHIT < -- THAT I DON'T EVEN CARE

GO ASK SUBTERRANEAN WHY HE FUCKING GAVE YOU AN INFRACTION AND NOT ME SERIOUSLY GO ASK HIM... THE LEVEL OF "NASTINESS" IS SO MUCH MORE OBVIOUS IN YOU THAN IN ME

YOUR WHOLE HISTORY ON THIS GODDAMN FORUM IS SPITEFUL AND HATEFUL.

YOU PISS OFF MANY PEOPLE AND MANY PEOPLE HATE YOU FOR IT.

I AM FRIENDLY TO PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE ON HERE AND I REALLY GENUINELY ENJOY THE PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM. I GAVE YOU A CHANCE YOU FUCKING SAY SHIT THAT PISSES ME THE FUCK OFF HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO REACT

DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

[ScarlettLux]

DO YOU NOT SEE CRAZEDRAT

HOW FUCKING DISGUSTING HIS COMMENTS ARE

AND HE PLAYS THEM OFF AS JOKES

AND AS BEING OK JUST BC THEY ARE ON A FUCKING FORUM

AND ONE TINY THING I SAY ON HIS FB WALL THAT HE HIMSELF AGREED WITH IS WORSE

SERIOUSLY FUCK MAN

YOU DON'T KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT HIS COMMENTS

THEY ARE RACIST AND SEXIST AND DISGUSTING.

like i seriously don't care anymore.. anyone with any sense who could meet him & i IRL and truly compare both of us would realize that i truly have a good fucking heart and that he ... i don't even know what he has.

[ScarlettLux]

you know what -- this whole thing might be ok and really 'a joke' if he actually didn't care what i said in response

but he totally expects me to not react AT ALL to his nasty comments and just accept them

and the moment i fight back and say something that DOES HIT A NERVE DONT FUCKING LIE I KNOW IT DOES... he whines and says i'm the "truly" bad one and hes just joking

i really think that he has some issues with women. i'm being completely honest.. not wanting to be dominated by one, fearful of them...

anyone who can make these kinds of comments with no remorse and shit online .. i dunno i really think that he might truly be racist/sexist.

[Timmy]

DJ, irrespective of whether you were joking or not, you have obviously crossed personal boundaries you should have stayed miles away from. Be a gentleman. Learn your lesson, apologize, and back the fuck off.

[Absurd]

I played Magic: the Gathering in local tournaments

Tinychat the Gathering.

YOU UGLY BULLHEADED CANCER FREAK LOOKING LONER PIECE OF SHIT

Haha!

YOU PISS OFF MANY PEOPLE AND MANY PEOPLE HATE YOU FOR IT.

Hate is great, believe me.

DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

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