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Thread: Archetypal Quadra Transitions

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Default Archetypal Quadra Transitions

    There are a number of real kinds of events that I believe to be characteristic "markers" in quadra transitions; I am tempted to categorize and dissect and systematize them (as is my obsessive-compulsive habit), but in truth I think the events themselves reveal more about the nature of the types, the quadras, and human psychic growth and development in general than anything that could be extracted from them. I think these transitions say more about the real human psyche than Socionics theory, to be frank, although I think they provide a kind of archetypal insight into the mentalities of the quadras, as well as their "natural" stances on members of other quadras.



    Delta to Alpha: Spiritual Awakening

    Fi to Fe

    This transition is the source of Alpha's "openness." In Delta, anything is possible, so long as it falls within certain socially restricted confines; in Alpha, anything goes. Expression is unrestricted, internal states are represented in earnest and without restraint or hesitation. Passion is fueled by the perceived need to break free from tradition. A new life has begun.


    Te to Ti

    While anything is now possible from an extra-contextual standpoint, certain rules must apply in order to allow for this "extra privelage." Now that ethics are "open," the rationale for their sustenance must be strict and rigorous, for if this "openness" is practiced without proper conscience, it is both aimless and dangerous. An emphasis on individual responsibility, as opposed to that of the collective is taken on: individuals take fate into their own hands, seeing what difference they can make in the world, rather than simply "knowing their place."



    Alpha to Beta: Spiritual Trauma

    Si to Se

    The transition from Si to Se is generally characterized by a physical hardening of sorts, along with increased awareness/wariness. Types of the Beta quadra demonstrate more physical independence, not uncommonly displaying feelings of hostility or suspicion in the event that another attempts to look after them or provide for their needs. They also often require greater stimulation to produce positive feelings, to feel satiated or "complete," and are generally resigned to a lack of inner peace; a disproportionate number, in comparison to other quadras, probably experience a kind of perpetual agitation.


    Ne to Ni

    An archetypal loss of innocence. No longer is everything possible; circumstances and events have winnowed the possible courses of one's future, seemingly to an "all or nothing" choice; one can either confront the object of trauma, or retreat from it entirely. Either path necessitates a kind of subconscious "ideological" devotion, which is rarely explicit but more likely demonstrated in the consistency of decisions with long-term implications. This transition also facilitates Aristocracy by negating the "open" philosophical approach of Alpha and creating a more cohesive one, deemed a necessary compromise by individuals having experienced "spiritual trauma" and seeing the need for more rigorous cooperation and, by proxy, alignment of values and "paths."



    Beta to Gamma: Spiritual Winnowing

    Fe to Fi

    This transition reverses the initial "opening" phase of Alpha, driven by caution, diluting the optimistic fuel of the Beta phase, and resigning one's scope for social change to a smaller one. Once again we see an intitiative in the individual scope, resigned to the futility of Beta's very natural-seeming pack approach and enduring the rigors of negating the collective response in order to distill one's own personal insight. The perceived scope is still global, as in Beta, but actions are delegated to individual responsibility.


    Ti to Te

    Gamma attempts to redefine the methods of change being implemented hitherto, having seen the futility of both ignoring history and attempting to gain momentum by following its tracks. Instead of distilling a coherent methodology or attempting a "grand plan," the Gamma phase is marked by a kind of patience, maintaining sight of an ultimate goal without assuming that everything should follow a particular path, and being willing to use unorthodox methods to get there. Ideologies fall by the wayside as a more sober worldview takes precedence, using it no longer as a tool for motivation but rather a measuring stick for progress.



    Gamma to Delta: Spiritual Homecoming

    Se to Si

    This transition represents a kind of collective sigh; the Gamma phase, having done the dirty work of humanity, so to speak, finds its rest here. As we age, our physical vigor declines, and even the tricks we have learned to push ourselves through hard times cease to have their same potency. Accordingly, here the vigilance of Gamma wanes, and more relaxed mentality emerges, one where physical exertion is seen as a chore rather than a rewarding challenge. Work is undertaken for the sake of responsibility rather than urgency, and careful diligence is exercised in place of expedience.

    Ni to Ne

    The scope of Delta Aristocracy narrows from Beta and Gamma, no longer focusing on the breadth of consequence of individual actions, but taking rather a more generalized view of the merit of actions. The emergent scope is local, with the assumption that other "locales" have their own methods of operation that share the same general alignment. A kind of spiritual relaxation comes, contrasted to the more xenophobic or fanatical views of Se/Ni quadras; Delta is more open to "outsiders," to experience their customs, to evaluate them without bias or apprehension. With the final extant obstacles to peace confronted in the Gamma stage, differences are seen as learning opportunities rather than potential threats.



    DISCLAIMER

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep in mind that these transitions are ARCHETYPAL in nature, and are not intended to denote specific characteristics that would be applicable to every member of the aforementioned quadras. I DO believe these traits can be observed in an unconscious sense from most members of the respective quadras, but it is not an appropriate way to type people, and no trait mentioned should be taken to indicate, by any means, a 1-to-1 correlation with any type, function, or quadra.
    Last edited by Gilly; 07-04-2011 at 05:55 PM.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    I like the progression descriptions but it seems to have somewhat of an alpha bias. Also, would you say that progression occurs only one way? alpha->beta->gamma->delta->alpha -> etc? Or can the progression also reverse in certain cases? Also, do you see the progression as more natural ie: relatively peaceful with the exception of the gamma transition, or more disruptive with transitions being seemingly violent/fearful events in history?

    A kind of spiritual relaxation comes, contrasted to the more xenophobic or fanatical views of Se/Ni quadras
    Judging from some of the members on this board, this is the truest statement I've read here so far.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Well I tend to think that when descriptions are written objectively, we can sense a "bias" for our own quadra, simply because it represents what we value/see as intrinsically good, at least on some level. Personally I thought I wrote it with a bit of a Beta/Gamma bias.

    I observed what I think of as a full quadra "cycle," a full progression followed by a full regression, in the full storyline of The Matrix. I talk about it more in depth here:

    Brief summary: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...17&postcount=7

    Analysis of The Matrix: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=30861

    More on quadra progression:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=28649
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Also, do you see the progression as more natural ie: relatively peaceful with the exception of the gamma transition, or more disruptive with transitions being seemingly violent/fearful events in history?
    I think any stage can be violent; certainly any transition has the same, probably greater, potential. I'm not sure what you see as particularly violent about the Gamma stage. If anything, Beta is the most violent overall; by contrast, Gamma is only outwardly violent in reaction to Beta, I think, although a latent aggressive energy is still there.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    These seem quite nice.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    This is highly interesting! Thanks Gilly.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    This is highly interesting! Thanks Gilly.
    No problem I feel pretty strongly at this point that any real spiritual merit that is to be had from Socionics comes from the standpoint of quadra dynamics, rather than "typings," so this feels like the only thing worth putting any energy into any more. I feel like these characterizations actually provide some depth of personal insight, some material for reflection and understanding, because they actually characterize a kind of archetypal path that everyone experiences (in different shades, of course), as opposed to the process of actually typing people which seems to be no good for anything but wanking and debating in circles. I feel like the quadra cycle describes a very, very intrinsic pattern in terms of energy levels, exertion, etc., and looking into the types themselves, as well as representatives, has helped me to glean something of what I believe to be the "human" element of this process, the actual underlying experience that gives rise to the energetic exhanges and processes that we actually observe.

    It's really fascinating just to think about; I feel like I honestly come up with new insights every time I sit down to really think about it.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    The spiritual journey inherent in quadra progression is a pretty universal one. Alpha represents innocence, which is lost in Beta, leading to a kind of carte-blanche rebellion against all of the terms under which alpha resides (aka Delta), which gives way to Gamma when the consequences of unbridled energy release (usually violent in external nature) have been experienced, leading to Gamma's "protective" mentality, that of the jaded watcher, who, having done enough "good deeds" to be at peace with himself, finds peace and resolution with the compromises made in Delta.

    The only problem with this is that there is no real spiritual resolution; the urges felt in Alpha and Beta are never fully realized from a spiritual perspective, even if their goals are acheived; they just sort of burn out into Gamma. This is why I am beginning to think that regression is possibly even an integral part of the entire process.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Has anyone else really thought on this stuff or am I really the only one?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Has anyone else really thought on this stuff or am I really the only one?
    Nope, but it's very interesting. I look at what you're saying as how types of a certain quadra perceive society rather than necessarily being actively trying to make those beliefs real, which could reconcile the concerns you mention in bold and using those descriptions for typing. I think it would be pretty cool to see how those progressions play out on a global scale of human history, and perhaps observe the predominance of one stage over the others in these recurring cycles in some cultures as opposed to others.

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Has anyone else really thought on this stuff or am I really the only one?
    You're not the only one, good stuff by the way

    I've had a lot of thoughts like these rattling around upstairs, and upon reading the post, it kinda lit a fire under my ass and I went on to attach Socionics to the Thoth tarot (the connections might work for Rider-Waite, I'll have to check when all is done), I've got the Knights, Queens, Princes, and Princesses of all the suits done with all the types, it will lead somewhere good in one way or another...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I think any stage can be violent; certainly any transition has the same, probably greater, potential. I'm not sure what you see as particularly violent about the Gamma stage. If anything, Beta is the most violent overall; by contrast, Gamma is only outwardly violent in reaction to Beta, I think, although a latent aggressive energy is still there.
    Well the statement that Gamma does the "dirty work" infers violence which is why I was asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Has anyone else really thought on this stuff or am I really the only one?
    Yes! I think quadra progression manifests itself in almost every aspect of progress and has pretty significant implications. You hadn't mentioned quadra regression which is why I asked. It should be pretty apparent that regression would occur if the transition happens prematurely. At any rate, great stuff and thanks for the read!

    IEE Ne Creative Type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Has anyone else really thought on this stuff or am I really the only one?
    I'd have to digest it, thinking with Democratic/Aristocratic & Process/Result in mind, I'm inclined to believe the transitions are as follows:
    Ne/Si → Fe/Ti → Se/Ni → Te/Fi (Left)
    Fe/Ti ← Se/Ni ← Te/Fi ← Ne/Si (Right)

    I haven't extrapolated yet as to how this would develop in a situation, so... meh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Has anyone else really thought on this stuff or am I really the only one?
    You're not the only one, good stuff by the way

    I've had a lot of thoughts like these rattling around upstairs, and upon reading the post, it kinda lit a fire under my ass and I went on to attach Socionics to the Thoth tarot (the connections might work for Rider-Waite, I'll have to check when all is done), I've got the Knights, Queens, Princes, and Princesses of all the suits done with all the types, it will lead somewhere good in one way or another...
    I underestimated you.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post

    You're not the only one, good stuff by the way

    I've had a lot of thoughts like these rattling around upstairs, and upon reading the post, it kinda lit a fire under my ass and I went on to attach Socionics to the Thoth tarot (the connections might work for Rider-Waite, I'll have to check when all is done), I've got the Knights, Queens, Princes, and Princesses of all the suits done with all the types, it will lead somewhere good in one way or another...
    I underestimated you.
    It's supposed to happen to some extent

    Anyways, I first thought it would be correct to assign Air to Alpha, Fire to Beta, Earth to Gamma, and Water to Delta. That was incomplete - the Six of Swords is purely , and the entire Swords suit has to be, at the very least, heavily related to , all of which should be available to Beta quadra as well as Alpha quadra. Also, due to quadra values, the Ten of Disks must belong to Delta as well as Gamma (I can easily pick up and themes in the Ten of Disks), same with much of the rest of the Disks suit...


    Air and Earth must be diametrically opposed to each other, same with Fire and Water. Air and Fire will be a more clean and obvious fit than Earth and Water; / and / don't separate as fully in Earth and Water as / and / do in Air and Fire. The Merry/Serious dichotomy in Socionics would be the Air/Earth dichotomy in the Thoth tarot, and the Judicious/Decisive dichotomy in Socionics would be the Water/Earth dichotomy in the Thoth tarot...


    Fire, due to its nature, would be more outwardly oriented than Water; Air, due to its nature, would be more outwardly oriented than Earth. If DCNH subtypes were assigned to each element, then it should go as follows in the chart below, which also implies the following temperaments:


    As far as the themes of the suits are concerned, I'm very happy with this. Taking "away" from Air/Swords was a necessary move in this particular case, as was taking "away" from Fire/Wands. I'll take these correlations with less weight than the ones in the previous tables though...

    Onto the Court Cards - I started with the Knight of Wands first, which embodies a Fire approach to Fire; therefore, an Leading type with a Dominant subtype - C-ESxp. I went on to do this with all of the elements; correlates to Water the most, so H-ISxp got assigned to the Queen of Cups, and as Wands and Cups fell on the Merry/Serious dividing line, so did Swords and Disks on the Judicious/Decisive dividing line. After going onward to completion in that way, I assigned every type's Dual to that typing too; that way, all types are included in the most sensible manner I could find.

    I worked backward from there to consolidate everything into a two-type system, changing each type to its Dual whenever its DCNH type didn't smoothly carry over; I then went on to reduce things to one type only with no subtype, paying close attention to the descriptions of the cards for this step, as well as the order of each type's functions, while trying to keep a certain symmetry to things. I then had to butcher much of that symmetry due to the Swords suit, of all things, not matching up quite correctly. The results are as follows:


    Everything came together incredibly well; there's a use for all of the systems, there has to be, though I haven't tried them all out yet. I'm a bit surprised to see ILE outside of the Swords suit, but it is an Intuitive type first and foremost after all, and it fits the Prince of Cups about perfectly...

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    Even if this is just an archetypical progression, which should not applied to a single type, I still see a lot those things in myself.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Has anyone else really thought on this stuff or am I really the only one?
    Well sure, but what else is there to say about it? I think I once tried to attach quadra progression to some book or something, but I don't know what to say about it past that. I can try to dredge up that post but I doubt that it will contribute significantly to the discussion.

    Maybe you could explain a little more why you think that the transition into the beta quadra is a traumatic event. You think it's a defensive movement? But at the same time it's an aspirational movement, isn't it? So how beta a movement both in defense against some sort of unspoken trauma (very E4, lol), and also in aspiration to move into something "higher"? You sort of touched on it with the "all or nothing" bit. I dunno, maybe you can elaborate more on what you think happens in the transition from alpha to beta. I don't necessarily see beta as a reaction to trauma, or at the very least, I would emphasize the "all" aspect of your all-or-nothing dichotomy---beta as interested in confronting the trauma and learning the secret of it. The options of post-traumatic stress or post-traumatic growth, maybe.

    So, um, there are my thoughts on the OP. Shrug.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    My basic thoughts on Tarot was Wands for Alpha, Sworda for Beta, Pentacles for Gamma and Cups for Delta.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    aren't disks/pentacles actually coins, or known as coins too. if so, def gamma. no one could have a doubt.

    personally when it comes to elements I'd associate gamma with water, beta with fire, alpha with air and delta with earth. fire/water represent violent and gradual change respectively (Se/Ni duo), while air and earth seem to match Si/Ne quadras more than anything gamma.

    I think I've posted, or at least meant to post and written, a lot about quadra progression archetypes, but since there's a thread for this know, I'll repeat it.

    alpha ideas lead to beta revolution lead to gamma giving a new direction to things lead to delta following through but no longer sticking to the goal. each quadra does something the way they know - alpha and beta operate under the known limits, beta and gamma break through towards known goals, gamma and delta act in known ways, delta and alpha follow known paths, to reach something they know not - alpha and beta act in previously unknown ways, beta and gamma find unknown paths, gamma and delta set unknown limits, delta and alpha reach unknown goals.

    the cycle is able to go either way, I think. I could see the reverse (result) direction as gamma attempts at redirection spiraling into a beta crisis leading to a final alpha aftermath returning to a delta point.

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    Very interesting.

    How does this all fit into intertype relations? Can unilateral quadra progression cause one to evolve away from a duality relationship?
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
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