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Thread: Time estimation and planning

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    Default Time estimation and planning

    I'm interested in views about time estimation and planning.

    In Socionics, it is generally assumed that Ni is the function for providing realistic estimates of time for planning purposes. However, this has some problems.

    First of all, the key to doing this is to have a good grasp of reality and not assume that you'll be able to make any intuitive "leaps" to speed things up. For example, if you want to know how many days it will take you to read a very densely written book, the way to do it would be to see how far you get in one day, and then realistically consider how many days per week you'd actually read that much. Suppose the book is 1500 pages. You find that you read to page 30 without feeling too overwhelmed. So if you take a break for weekends and no holidays, it's going to take you 10 weeks.

    Anybody can do this. But what types, by habit, would do it that way? I would suspect that it is the sensing types who will most likely judge time "concretely" and not rely on having some sort of "intuitive revelation" to find a "shortcut." Hence, the sensing types (perhaps both Se and Si) will be more realistic in terms of time.

    The alternative view, of course, is that Ni is what does this...but in that case, Ni is no intuition at all; it would be a sensing function, because its role would then be to see things as concretely and realistically as possible. (As per the "introverted version of Ne" thread, some people think this...that Ni is a sensing function and Si an intuitive function.)

    This is not to say that Ni-Ego types can't plan properly, but I think they must use some degree of dualization to do it; that, is they must think a little bit with Se to perceive how things really are, rather than their idea of how they are. It is only through using the part of ones mind that makes assumptions based on concrete, sensory experience that one will be realistic about the fact that if you can only get through 30 pages, you're not going to be able to read 300 on another day.

    Even LIEs, while considered efficient, aren't always realistic in my experience. I've seen cases where LIE leaders have promised something to a client that was on a completely unrealistic timeline. They do this because they're not aware of all the sensory details that are involved in the realization. Similarly, I think Ni types in general, if Ni is really a form of intuition, would be expected to rely on their intuitive ability (e.g., "I know I can make it, because I'll come up with something"), which while it may work (because they actually do come up with a way to the meet the deadline), is not based on the more sensing, concrete, realistic approach of just assuming that no special revelation will happen and that you simply have to multiply what you can do in a unit time by the amount of time to get how long it will take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Studies suggest that humans generally fare poorly at time estimation.

    Chalk up another failure for Stupidonics.
    Very good study to know about. Makes me feel less alone. I have a different theory though on why it is that people overestimate the time they will have: I think it's because people map their goals/desires into the future; that is, if they were to assume that they will only have as much time tomorrow as they had today, then they will have to admit that they won't achieve some of their desires, or that they will lose some things that they have now, because there just isn't enough time.

    I suspect that if the research cited is accurate, then developing the skill to go against that grain would be a rather unique ability, not related to type.

    Nevertheless, assuming that everybody has this problem to some degree, the question is, are there some times that are better or worse in this area?

    For myself, I've tended to be pretty bad, mainly because I'm aware that sometimes I am able to make more time. That is, there are days when, perhaps under pressure, I accomplish what to me is an amazing amount, well beyond what I was able to do before. Therefore, sometimes I assume I can do that again, forgetting how painful it was to even get to that point.

    In any case, aren't some types naturally at least a little more realistic than others?

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    People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.
    Well, there are different levels of goals, certainly. What I'm talking about is that people want to get their project done before they're scheduled to go out of town, and they want to get the deal complete before they run out of money, and stuff like that. So they schedule things based on these external realities, whereas maybe the right thing to do is to just plan on these unrealistic things not happening, so that the reality is less crushing when it happens.

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    My Ni-Based husband is one of the WORST people I know for time estimation. He is chronically late for everything, or would be if I didn't have the opposite habit of trying to be early for everything-- as a result, put us together and we're usually right on time.
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    I'm awesome at time estimation, good at scheduling action; my dual is better at planning and keeping me committed to these plans and not letting me divert or get distracted. My mom, an Ni base, gets locked into images that might happen or go wrong if I don't take care of certain things, acting like a prophet in the way she pushes me to do certain things, telling me what events might unfold if I don't take care of the things I need to NOW for the sake of the future.

    I'm also darn great at calming fears associated with not making certain things by time, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    My mom, an Ni base, ... telling me ... take care of the things I need to NOW ...
    Sounds like a parent (no matter the type).

    ....By the way, getting back to the study that Ashton mentioned, that gives me an idea. If it's true that Socionics temperament affects the degree to which ones energy level is stable and predictable, this could be a reason for why some rational types of all quadras (especially Ij types) may be better at time estimation.

    If Ij means a person is "even keel" in the sense that one day is pretty much like any other day (at least in terms of energy), and if the study is correct that the reason we incorrectly estimate time is that "because every day's a little different," then that would suggest that Ij types would be less prone to the kind of time underestimation mentioned in the study...whereas types that have bigger "swings" would be more prone.

    Of course that leaves open the question which types have the wilder swings and which are more "stable." For example, Ip types are irrational but also static. ESEs tend to be known for being a bit unpredictable, so maybe that would also intensify the effect...
    Last edited by Jonathan; 06-30-2011 at 04:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    My mom, an Ni base, ... telling me ... take care of the things I need to NOW ...
    Sounds like a parent (no matter the type).
    My SLI dad never does those things; he's too into his relaxing world to take what I do seriously, like my mom.

    I also wanted to add to my post that my LSE bf is like my mom in that when there's something he wants me to do, he'll remind me, several times. No wonder why I'm also attracted to by benefit ILI, because they act in a lot of ways like my dual.

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    Various people and time:

    Dad is EIE and is always really early, but he has OCD and it makes him feel a need to get places like an hour early or something. It was awful when I was a kid because he'd take me to my orthodontist appointments an hour early and I always felt like a fool.

    Mom is LIE and seems to have a good sense of timing, but it's hard to think of her on her own and not associate with my dad so I'm not sure.

    Sister is EII and is always very early but I think she got that habit from my dad.

    Brother is ESI and is either really bad with estimating time and getting places on time, or is passive aggressive and uses being late as a way to get what he wants. I haven't decided. Once we were going to meet him for dinner. He wanted to meet at 7, and I said I have a 2-year-old and cant' do dinner that late, so maybe 5:30. He agreed, but didn't come until 7 anyway. Did he misjudge time or was he being an ass?

    Husband is SLI and is really good at estimating how long it takes to get from here to any given place, and I'll often ask him about that. But he is really bad about estimating how long it will take him to complete tasks, so I don't pay attention to his estimates and just judge for myself how long it's likely to take. Also, if he tells me he'll be home by 6, he will not be home until like 7:30. I don't think that's not being able to estimate as much as not being worried about what time he gets home though, as if he needs to pick up our daughter at 6, he is always there on time.

    I am generally good but I'm a bit flakey and forget what time I have to be someplace, or I get distracted and set back a bit and end up leaving late. But I know if my husband says his job is going to take 2 hours if it's really going to take a whole day or maybe a bit of a second day, even though I don't do that kind of work. I'm very good at estimating how long it takes to do stuff even if I don't do it. Not good at estimating how long it takes to drive from one place to another.

    Maybe this is just random.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.
    Moments like this make me feel understood, despite all the haters who say I dream too big or am unrealistic.

    Jonathan, regarding the topic, you're thinking too literally for time calculation. Ni is not a matter of estimating how many days to read a book, nor pianosinger is it always an indication of chronic lateness/punctuality, although sometimes it manifests itself as such.

    The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time. If Ne is the external realization of potential in people, potential ideas, the realization of possibilities, Ni is the internalized anchor of those ideas, an intrinsic understanding of the relevance of possibilities.

    Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

    Or I'll go out of my way to feed the dogs, make sure I'm dressed and looking sharp, brush my teeth, even floss, when it might make me late for something. Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

    Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

    Again, lateness and estimation of how long something will take are not necessarily related to Ni. Ni is truly an understanding of the relevance of potential external ideas and an anchor in seeing what will be important long-term.

    The stereotypical ESFj profile on socionics.com describes ESFjs rushing around from one thing to another. I'm guilty of this! Weak Ni is not understanding which things are important and trying to do them all! ESTjs with Te base focus on correcting every inefficiency, doing every little thing organizationally, without much understanding for which potential organizational/external categories are important.

    INFps and INTps with strong Ni have a good understanding of relevance. They can intuitively understand people very well, because they can see what the person is doing now and how they will change over time. They tend to ignore Ne and the potential for that person to change, but rather focus on the momentum/path a person is on currently, and where they will be in the future based upon their actions.

    So again, time estimation + planning DOES NOT = Ni. As I alluded to, sometimes ESEs with weak Ni tend to be chronically late, because we want to do every little thing before leaving. It's not that I don't understand how LONG something will take... I'm quite good at estimating time. Rather it's a weakness/avoidance/reluctance for me to want to prioritize my tasks, figure out which ideas are most important, because it's very hard for me, which results in a strong preference for me to just want to do everything. Accomplish everything. ETC. ETC.

    But strong Ni types can be late and weak Ni types can be on time. Certainly a bit against the norm, but not that uncommon.

    Hope that helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post

    The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.
    Nice.
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    Rushing around from one thing to another would be more

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Rushing around from one thing to another would be more
    Rushing specifies that someone actually gets involved in "the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.". MD never included that, so I take it as observing it all but staying uninvolved. As time progresses, the most "important" processes start to unfold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Rushing around from one thing to another would be more
    Rushing specifies that someone actually gets involved in "the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.". MD never included that, so I take it as observing it all but staying uninvolved. As time progresses, the most "important" processes start to unfold.
    I've never seen an with an Rush at anything. You know!!! that conserves energy, relaxes, doesn't rush, observes and internalizes sensory information!!!
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 06-30-2011 at 05:50 AM.

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    Yeah, it's complicated. I don't agree with the interpretation of as a small-scale timing function, either. Partially this type of attitude seems to be related to parenting i.e. if your parents trained you to be a timely person, then you're likely going to pick up this trait. Although the least timely person I know is an ESFp, whose ENFj-ISTj parents are extremely punctual. So perhaps my theory is bollocks, who knows.
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    This might be going off topic, but project management teaches a very rigorous method to estimating how long something will take. I think most people can follow it and get a good estimate based on the information available. It is my opinion that blind guesses are usually too optimistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post

    Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.
    Just like me. But I doubt I'm an ESE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

    Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?
    A lot of people have said that on the forum. But it doesn't make any logical sense. If Ne were coming up with ideas and Ni were filtering them or determining which of those ideas are important or valid, then the following would hold:
    1) Ni and Ne would typically be used together, because if you come up with a lot of ideas, naturally the next thing you have to do is determine which of them to follow.
    2) Ni would be a judging function, because it would be used to make a judgment about different ideas.
    3) Ni would not be a form of intuition.
    4) People strong in Ne would either use it together with Ni, or value people with strong Ni to help them decide between their ideas.

    Now if you want to say that Ni is somehow a more "focused" kind of intuition than Ne, then maybe. However, I would ascribe any narrowing down of ideas in Ni types to their judging function....i.e., Fe or Te combined with Ni to direct it. But Ni as a judging function? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

    @Ozz:
    Even if it's technically off-topic, maybe it relates.....What resources or books do you recommend for project management?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post

    The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.
    Nice.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post

    Rushing specifies that someone actually gets involved in "the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.". MD never included that, so I take it as observing it all but staying uninvolved. As time progresses, the most "important" processes start to unfold.
    I've never seen an with an Rush at anything. You know!!! that conserves energy, relaxes, doesn't rush, observes and internalizes sensory information!!!
    You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post

    Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.
    Just like me. But I doubt I'm an ESE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

    Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?
    A lot of people have said that on the forum. But it doesn't make any logical sense. If Ne were coming up with ideas and Ni were filtering them or determining which of those ideas are important or valid, then the following would hold:
    1) Ni and Ne would typically be used together, because if you come up with a lot of ideas, naturally the next thing you have to do is determine which of them to follow.
    2) Ni would be a judging function, because it would be used to make a judgment about different ideas.
    3) Ni would not be a form of intuition.
    4) People strong in Ne would either use it together with Ni, or value people with strong Ni to help them decide between their ideas.

    Now if you want to say that Ni is somehow a more "focused" kind of intuition than Ne, then maybe. However, I would ascribe any narrowing down of ideas in Ni types to their judging function....i.e., Fe or Te combined with Ni to direct it. But Ni as a judging function? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

    @Ozz:
    Even if it's technically off-topic, maybe it relates.....What resources or books do you recommend for project management?
    Some of your assumptions are off, because people don't use Ne and Ni together. While some types are strong at both, they generally ignore one in favor of another.

    Intuitively, you could argue/say that Ti helps direct Fe best. And Fi helps direct Te. An INTj complements my leading Fe with his leading Ti, not using Ni directly to compensate for my POLR. In that sense, you're not crossing "perceiving" functions with "judging" functions in terms of being complementary.

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    I suck at time estimation pretty much, that's why I'm always über-punctual since I totally hate it to be too late. Even if I know that my way to school takes about 20 minutes, I'm typically 15 or 20 minutes too soon. I never remember how much time I needed to do something if someone asked me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Some of your assumptions are off, because people don't use Ne and Ni together. While some types are strong at both, they generally ignore one in favor of another.
    No, I'm not making any such assumptions. We all know that people don't typically use Ne and Ni together; the way the letters combine is actually the only thing that pretty much all socionists agree on.

    What I'm saying is that the way that you're defining Ni and Ne (and others too...you're not the only one) makes it obvious that they would be used together. It's obvious if you think about it that it's so...that if Ni were equivalent to skill in picking the best idea, and Ne were equivalent to coming up with the ideas in the first place, then they would be complementary; they would go hand in hand.

    In other words, this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    While some types are strong at both, they generally ignore one in favor of another
    ....which I agree with, contradicts your earlier statement. It wouldn't make sense that people who come up with ideas ignore the need to be able to judge between them. Their ideas would have no coherence and they would get nothing done, if that were the case. And if there weren't any people who are good at judging between ideas (Ni in your system) but who also had ideas to judge in the first place, then we wouldn't have anyone to evaluate ideas, which would of course be a great loss.

    ...now of course, there are people who focus more on the judging side of things...but typically we call such types rational types, rather than Ni.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Intuitively, you could argue/say that Ti helps direct Fe best. And Fi helps direct Te.
    very true...Ti complements Fe, and Fi complements Te. That's just standard Socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    In that sense, you're not crossing "perceiving" functions with "judging" functions in terms of being complementary.
    But if you define X as judging which of a series of ideas is the best one, or the most relevant, according to some criteria, is that not a judging function? So if X = Ni, then Ni is a judging function (not in reality...just according to how you've defined it).
    Last edited by Jonathan; 06-30-2011 at 07:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    What I'm saying is that the way that you're defining Ni and Ne (and others too...you're not the only one) makes it obvious that they would be used together. It's obvious if you think about it that it's so...that if Ni were equivalent to skill in picking the best idea, and Ne were equivalent to coming up with the ideas in the first place, then they would be complementary; they would go hand in hand.
    I originally contrasted Ni with Ne, so people would better understand Ni in relation to time and relevance of ideas. I didn't mean to imply that they were complementary, sorry.

    Some people are good at brainstorming ideas, more Ne, while others are better at understanding the potential ideas and possibilities over time, more Ni. However, theoretically if a person could use both Ne and Ni in their ego block, there wouldn't be any sustainability of process. Yes, both are perceiving functions, and need the work of a Thinking or Feeling judging function to be manipulated appropriately.

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    Skipping all these arguments and back to your OP, Jonathan, I will just explain what I think Ni in myself is like. Maybe this will be relevant to the conversation, maybe not so much.

    I see Ni in myself metaphorically as something like an inner warehouse of films, an archive, and these films are constructed both from experience and from numinous sources such as dreams or visions, and from secondhand information. In the moment, I can cut and splice those images together in a variety of ways, with a tendency is to seek out patterns.

    The way I see Ni in myself as actually relating to time is that I can construct internally a sense of historical periods--just have a good feeling for them, project myself into them--and also rise above time, by experiencing the timelessness of a place, a geographical feature, a human being, an artwork, and so on.

    Now, I am in fact an extremely punctual person and hate lateness in myself and others. I also work in a field that is per-project in structure and deadline-driven. In estimating how long it will take to do something or get somewhere, I do project mentally the amount of time it will take--that's an estimate. It arises instantly and is often pretty accurate. I also build in a buffer. If the time of arrival or completion is not vitally important, I might go with the estimate only and "wing it" with the details. If it is vital, though, I will hold that estimate in mind and construct a path toward that time destination using a more step-by-step approach; this is like double-checking. It might be, for me, more Se/Ti in nature, this second, follow-up step--not sure, but you were wondering about that.

    If I lose time in one part of a project, day, whatever, I tend to make it up later automatically; things are not absolutely thrown off. So my management of time could look effortless to someone else, because of these automatic recalculations. It is not necessarily all that effortless, though--just depends on how complex the scenario and how much conscious attention I have paid to it.

    This, er, process works on a micro level (a short trip, a project) and on a macro level (projecting a vision of the future several years out and then determining what is needed to make that vision real).

    Living with an Ni-PoLR partner for many years was ... interesting. I can only say how it looks from my pov--he might put things differently. He is also normally (not always) punctual. It's something he works very, very hard at. Being on time with him is a matter of pride, where for me it's more of a given.

    Without plans, he feels there is no stability. If his plans are not well-laid, he will in fact be late or things will go awry. There doesn't seem to be that instant ability to adjust to or absorb changes. Time is not fluid or flexible, has no plasticity, for him. And if you ask him about long-term future plans, he really cannot seem to see far ahead, and he can even find demands for him to do that threatening. I also have seen him make major decisions that fail to account for all of the variables that will come into play in the future.

    He doesn't seem to respond to the same cues I do--such as, oh, months ago a person having mentioned a potential problem with funding of a project. I zero in on that sort of thing and work it into my calculations, whereas for him, if it hasn't happened yet, it's more "I'll deal with that IF it happens" and doesn't really seem to take root in his thinking. If it doesn't fit with the plan, it gets discarded.

    Despite that, he seems himself as a very future-oriented person. What IEs he is relying on to deal with the future, though ... I'm not sure of that. It could be Si/Te: concrete operational details of the day-to-day world, and plans concerning those details that give rise to internal homeostasis. To me, he is good at handling things as they arise only by figuring out where they fit into a structure he has created, and he excels at making concrete plans and schedules, and organizing things concerning how to get from point A-Z. But his mastery will be more or less of point A only, then point B only, and so on. And I'm rather the opposite, as my above description may show. I look at the overview, I fill in the skeleton, and there are bits and pieces for things all along the way, with no absolutely stepwise pattern in terms of what gets filled in, when.
    Last edited by golden; 07-01-2011 at 04:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post

    I originally contrasted Ni with Ne, so people would better understand Ni in relation to time and relevance of ideas. I didn't mean to imply that they were complementary, sorry.
    Thanks, and sorry I gave you a hard time with that...It sounded as if you were making Ni out to be judging function, so I may have misunderstood you. However, the following is a reasonable definition, at least within some of the mainstream schools of Socionics:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    ...while others are better at understanding the potential ideas and possibilities over time, more Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.
    This is called volitional pressure ahem...Se....

    This is why I can't defend my interests against types like yours who use Se on me and why I need my dual right now. But, I shouldn't waste my time and argue with you on any of the above points as you would probably need to see (visually ) more information to be convinced of something than I care to fetch for you.

    You hit my polr in the various ways:

    1. You are saying to everyone that I don't have credibility to speak therefore I don't have a right, my opinions are very unimportant.
    2. You are saying that no matter how much knowledge I have, any defense against your quote, by me, is and should be discarded.
    3. You're inviting me to push back harder and if I didn't have my dual next to me I would have tried and gloriously failed, but I don't care. My duals will defend me and my boyfriend is enough pressure gage for me to feel ok and not hurt by what you're writing here about my "credibility"
    4. Your statement is inviting me to overreact. I feel defenseless and unprotected.


    It's like you choking someone who doesn't like to argue and still wants to have a voice but can't because once you determine you want to have this playing field, you won't let anyone else win...it's a strategic sport and the objective of Se is to WIN.

    NO OFFENSE TO YOU BUT YOU NEED TO GET A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE THAN MYSELF TO PROCLAIM YOURSELF AS ANY "AUTHORITY" IN SOCIONICS.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 07-01-2011 at 04:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by werlkjlakjeraoiaeswroiaer View Post
    Maybe this will be relevant to the conversation, maybe not so much.
    Very relevant...thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by werlkjlakjeraoiaeswroiaer View Post
    inner warehouse of films, an archive
    That sounds like another name for memory. It sounds as if you have a good memory...or that you store memory or access it differently from some other people (e.g., the LSE person you were mentioning).

    So do you think Ni, or a large part of it, is simply a matter of remembering events from the past and then being able to use them by being able to recall that (for example) some relevant detail from a few months ago may impact future places?
    [/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    That sounds like another name for memory. It sounds as if you have a good memory...or that you store memory or access it differently from some other people (e.g., the LSE person you were mentioning).

    So do you think Ni, or a large part of it, is simply a matter of remembering events from the past and then being able to use them by being able to recall that (for example) some relevant detail from a few months ago may impact future places?
    I have a good memory for some things, and not for others. I tend to remember concepts and feelings, and these are probably best driven in if there's a touch or listening component. I remember gestalts, and if I need to remember details, I have to work at it. I'm in the habit of disremembering things that seem extraneous. Because of the nature of my work, a tremendous amount of information flows into my life most days, and to get a fresh outlook, and/or think more efficiently, I have to let most of it go.

    So I don't think it's as simple as remembering past events specifically. If I have to guess, I'm going to say that it's more that I abstract something from events and information. There's some meta-organization to the whole thing, maybe.

    I will remember a detail (like someone mentioning a potential funding problem, from my earlier) if it pings for me as important, or in response to something a detail like that might suddenly flash back into my mind. Or if it happens to fit into a set of concerns that already occupy my mind, something I'm weighing.

    Sigh. Not sure this is clear, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.
    This is called volitional pressure ahem...Se....

    This is why I can't defend my interests against types like yours who use Se on me and why I need my dual right now. But, I shouldn't waste my time and argue with you on any of the above points as you would probably need to see (visually ) more information to be convinced of something than I care to fetch for you.

    You hit my polr in the various ways:

    1. You are saying to everyone that I don't have credibility to speak therefore I don't have a right, my opinions are very unimportant.
    2. You are saying that no matter how much knowledge I have, any defense against your quote, by me, is and should be discarded.
    3. You're inviting me to push back harder and if I didn't have my dual next to me I would have tried and gloriously failed, but I don't care. My duals will defend me and my boyfriend is enough pressure gage for me to feel ok and not hurt by what you're writing here about my "credibility"
    4. Your statement is inviting me to overreact. I feel defenseless and unprotected.


    It's like you choking someone who doesn't like to argue and still wants to have a voice but can't because once you determine you want to have this playing field, you won't let anyone else win...it's a strategic sport and the objective of Se is to WIN.

    NO OFFENSE TO YOU BUT YOU NEED TO GET A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE THAN MYSELF TO PROCLAIM YOURSELF AS ANY "AUTHORITY" IN SOCIONICS.
    I find this post hilarious. Explaining how I hit your POLR, instead of acknowledging my points. Wasn't it you who once said people need to be themselves more on this forum, so they could be more easily typed, rather than worrying about socionics theory?

    And hey... don't put words in my mouth, Maritsa. I never claimed to be an "authority". I just said you're not an authority, ESPECIALLY when it comes to ESEs. You said 1) ESEs don't rush around, ever 2) ESEs are anti-social and 3) ESEs don't like strategy games. Yes, you don't know ESEs very well, are way out of touch with reality, caught up in your theory, modeling and following the advice of an old lady in socionics, alone and unhappy, which is what you will become if you don't change anything.

    I would go on more, but you have proven not to listen to anyone. Anyone but the blessed Russians. And yet you tote around your 6 years of studying socionics from the Russians, like it means something, like it justifies your off-base conclusions. And you think this makes you better than everyone else! And yet you actually accuse ME of claiming to be an authority? C'mon, get off your high horse, Maritsa.

    You understand the theory, yes, but not people. You have incorporated socionics soooo much into your normal, everyday thinking, that you've become delusional. I'm really sorry for you. And yet I don't mind ripping into you now, for how much you throw other people off. I would've found my true type ESE sooner if I hadn't listened to you. Or was nice to you, or considered what you had to say. Or stuck up for you, looking foolish , when everyone else who had been here longer already knew the damage you cause, and had even warned me. Maybe you don't understand the theory well either. Not nearly as well as you claim.

    I'm not LSI, Maritsa. You're not EII, Maritsa. The sooner you can get these things into your brain, and actually consider the viewpoints of other people, the better. Until then, I unfortunately believe you will continue to be a balloon floating up in the clouds, further and further away from the world, and from people, thinking you're the best and most beautiful balloon to ever float the skies, that you're so great because of how long you've been gone, or how much theory you know, until you slowly lose your air, and you wither away, depressed and unhappy, and come crashing back down to earth, maybe into a tree, unable to be found, unable to be used for anything, unable to be of any purpose, ever since you floated away.

    COME back down to reality, Maritsa. Tell your socionics mentors, the old ladies, whoever it was who originally typed you as EII, that they're wrong. DO IT. Make the change. The people here on 16types have seen your posts, your behavior, your emotions, your attitude, for YEARS NOW. There's no way we all can be wrong about your type. So many different perspectives, and we all agree. YOU'RE NOT EII. Believing that, listening to others, is the first and most important step in saving yourself.

    Please listen.
    Sincerely,
    Greg, aka Mountain Dew

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    Beautiful analogy with the balloon and all that. But how is it that Socionics gets so personal or that we can be sure of other people's types just from their posts? Everyone has a slightly different version of the definitions anyhow.

    People seem to think that type is some absolute fixed thing, and if you don't know your type, you're going to fail in some way.

    I think we need to come away from that. Yes, it can be a great revelation to learn something about yourself, which can be done under the rubric of Socionics. But we have to remember that Socionics concepts are just a sort of theory used to organize actual insights about people. It's the actual insights that matter, not the letters we use.

    If a person recognizes some way that he/she shares values with someone else, or solves a real-life relationship problem, and assigns this understanding some Socionics letters, then the important thing was that the insight was valuable.

    Nobody is going to get ruined by having their type letters "wrong," as long as they refrain from certain Socionics abuses, such as:
    * Refraining from learning or doing something because one thinks it's not in one's type (e.g., "I don't do math because I'm an ethical type.")
    * Ending a perfectly good relationship because of type theory when there's no real indication of problems in the relationship.
    * Acting in a way that's unwanted around someone because your theory tells you that it's wanted (e.g., acting like an LSE when around an IEI because you mis-typed the person EII).

    If a person stays away from such abuses, then it doesn't really matter what the person types him/herself as. If the person is "wrong," probably that person is equally wrong about everybody else's type, so the intertype relationships will still come out mostly the same anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.
    Moments like this make me feel understood, despite all the haters who say I dream too big or am unrealistic.

    Jonathan, regarding the topic, you're thinking too literally for time calculation. Ni is not a matter of estimating how many days to read a book, nor pianosinger is it always an indication of chronic lateness/punctuality, although sometimes it manifests itself as such.

    The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time. If Ne is the external realization of potential in people, potential ideas, the realization of possibilities, Ni is the internalized anchor of those ideas, an intrinsic understanding of the relevance of possibilities.

    Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

    Or I'll go out of my way to feed the dogs, make sure I'm dressed and looking sharp, brush my teeth, even floss, when it might make me late for something. Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

    Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

    Again, lateness and estimation of how long something will take are not necessarily related to Ni. Ni is truly an understanding of the relevance of potential external ideas and an anchor in seeing what will be important long-term.

    The stereotypical ESFj profile on socionics.com describes ESFjs rushing around from one thing to another. I'm guilty of this! Weak Ni is not understanding which things are important and trying to do them all! ESTjs with Te base focus on correcting every inefficiency, doing every little thing organizationally, without much understanding for which potential organizational/external categories are important.

    INFps and INTps with strong Ni have a good understanding of relevance. They can intuitively understand people very well, because they can see what the person is doing now and how they will change over time. They tend to ignore Ne and the potential for that person to change, but rather focus on the momentum/path a person is on currently, and where they will be in the future based upon their actions.

    So again, time estimation + planning DOES NOT = Ni. As I alluded to, sometimes ESEs with weak Ni tend to be chronically late, because we want to do every little thing before leaving. It's not that I don't understand how LONG something will take... I'm quite good at estimating time. Rather it's a weakness/avoidance/reluctance for me to want to prioritize my tasks, figure out which ideas are most important, because it's very hard for me, which results in a strong preference for me to just want to do everything. Accomplish everything. ETC. ETC.

    But strong Ni types can be late and weak Ni types can be on time. Certainly a bit against the norm, but not that uncommon.

    Hope that helps.
    Fair description of weak Ni, I relate. And I think you may be my Mirror. The way you describe yourself, I'm not sure if I can see you as my Supervisor. You do appear a bit over-the-top and exaggeratedly positive or happy-go-lucky sometimes, but never actually controlling of the emotional atmosphere or showing emotionally manipulative tendencies... more like freely expressive or something, which I also tend to be to a certain degree. Just an observation.
    Last edited by Park; 07-03-2011 at 08:23 PM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

  30. #30
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    My take on the issue is very similar to what Golden has written, so perhaps there is a real connection between that kind of time-management and .
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    This isn't type-related, but I actually know an EIE who can guess what the time is to within 5 minutes, it's spooky. He's still always fucking late though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    I would just like to say I may be wrong.

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    I dont think precise time estimation by a standard measurement like minutes is whats meant by Nis supposed association with time. Ni is aware of how things unfold & one event leads to the next. Thats a relative point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.
    This is called volitional pressure ahem...Se....

    This is why I can't defend my interests against types like yours who use Se on me and why I need my dual right now. But, I shouldn't waste my time and argue with you on any of the above points as you would probably need to see (visually ) more information to be convinced of something than I care to fetch for you.

    You hit my polr in the various ways:

    1. You are saying to everyone that I don't have credibility to speak therefore I don't have a right, my opinions are very unimportant.
    2. You are saying that no matter how much knowledge I have, any defense against your quote, by me, is and should be discarded.
    3. You're inviting me to push back harder and if I didn't have my dual next to me I would have tried and gloriously failed, but I don't care. My duals will defend me and my boyfriend is enough pressure gage for me to feel ok and not hurt by what you're writing here about my "credibility"
    4. Your statement is inviting me to overreact. I feel defenseless and unprotected.


    It's like you choking someone who doesn't like to argue and still wants to have a voice but can't because once you determine you want to have this playing field, you won't let anyone else win...it's a strategic sport and the objective of Se is to WIN.

    NO OFFENSE TO YOU BUT YOU NEED TO GET A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE THAN MYSELF TO PROCLAIM YOURSELF AS ANY "AUTHORITY" IN SOCIONICS.
    Maritsa stop blaming all your fuckin problems on your polr

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