Those insular, insular little IEIs-INFps

[ScarlettLux]

Goddamnit. You all annoy me to no end. How anyone could ever think I'm an IEI is beyond me, considering I am really getting to know how they "work" ... we clash so often.

One thing in particular is their insularity. Maybe this is just an sp first thing, or even an introverted thing but with some IEIs... omg I could wring their necks because they're so hidden, yet they complain and whine about feeling alone and "misunderstood".

Damn... like you know you could maybe exercise some and get out there & stop bashing "OTHER" people as the crazies of this world, when really it's just your own pretentiousness?

I hate when IEIs get all negative and depressed about the supposed injustices and superficiality of the world. Musicians like Thom Yorke, Morrissey... kill me now. I would slap some sense to them if I ever met them. Their allegedly "brilliant" music may be so but God, is it EVER melancholy and inert! JESUS!

I try and draw you out, you just retreat more. Do you even WANT friends? ...

Too much IEI in my life.

[noid]

I hate when IEIs get all negative and depressed about the supposed injustices and superficiality of the world. Musicians like Thom Yorke, Morrissey... kill me now. I would slap some sense to them if I ever met them. Their allegedly "brilliant" music may be so but God, is it EVER melancholy and inert! JESUS!

thom yorke EII
random defensive selfish projection EII

[Cat King Cole]

ScarlettLux is the new Maritsa.

[silverchris9]

simple solution. People aren't trustworthy. Dur.

People aren't trustworthy = IEIs are insular. Prove yourself trustworthy and we'll open up. Haven't you heard of the Victim-Aggressor thing?

Some people have more issues with this than others, obviously.

Just think, if you're seeing the avoidant side, then you're already past the fake persona, at least partially. Keep going, you're like halfway there!

And then of course, there's the fact that people have to decide to change. Ya know.

[noid]

Dur.

you french ? what the meaning of this if not ?

[ScarlettLux]

You're IEI.

You're retarded.

[ScarlettLux]

Shush, now. You love us, I know you do.

Isn't your bf IEI?

Yep and him I can stand... maybe its just the Fe subtypes but yeah he's pretty near ILI
<3 you though

[ScarlettLux]

ScarlettLux is the new Maritsa.

Go away.

[redbaron]

ScarlettLux, I you!

I am sp-first and probably Ni-sub so I've had a tendency to be insular at times. But as I've gotten older, I've learned how to at least throw some Fe out there and join the rest of the world. There's probably nothing worse than an unhealthy IEI (oh. unless it's an unhealthy SLE).

[DividedsGhost]

This sounds exactly like a LTR I had with an SEE. She would always fucking complain and I would get pissed about being invalidated and then not talk to her for a couple days and then everything would be fine again and then she would become a bitch again, on and on, and we would accuse each other of being the one at fault because we were both wanting totally opposite things. Is this about right?

Sounds like you both demotivate one another with your expectations. This is how I understand the HA in duality is that if you were with an ILI, he would provide Te and that would produce your Fi, but instead you're getting Fe which doesn't validate and motivate you. And he's getting Fi, which doesn't validate and motivate him.

...I guess...whatever.

I still have a point if you want it.

[ScarlettLux]

This sounds exactly like a LTR I had with an SEE. She would always fucking complain and I would get pissed about being invalidated and then not talk to her for a couple days and then everything would be fine again and then she would become a bitch again, on and on, and we would accuse each other of being the one at fault because we were both wanting totally opposite things. Is this about right?

Sounds like you both demotivate one another with your expectations. This is how I understand the HA in duality is that if you were with an ILI, he would provide Te and that would produce your Fi, but instead you're getting Fe which doesn't validate and motivate you. And he's getting Fi, which doesn't validate and motivate him.

...I guess...whatever.

I still have a point if you want it.

Ermmm, what's an LTR?

Ya think I'm SEE?

[ScarlettLux]

ScarlettLux, I you!

I am sp-first and probably Ni-sub so I've had a tendency to be insular at times. But as I've gotten older, I've learned how to at least throw some Fe out there and join the rest of the world. There's probably nothing worse than an unhealthy IEI (oh. unless it's an unhealthy SLE).

I you!

[eunice]

Goddamnit. You all annoy me to no end. How anyone could ever think I'm an IEI is beyond me, considering I am really getting to know how they "work" ... we clash so often.

One thing in particular is their insularity. Maybe this is just an sp first thing, or even an introverted thing but with some IEIs... omg I could wring their necks because they're so hidden, yet they complain and whine about feeling alone and "misunderstood".

Damn... like you know you could maybe exercise some and get out there & stop bashing "OTHER" people as the crazies of this world, when really it's just your own pretentiousness?

I hate when IEIs get all negative and depressed about the supposed injustices and superficiality of the world. Musicians like Thom Yorke, Morrissey... kill me now. I would slap some sense to them if I ever met them. Their allegedly "brilliant" music may be so but God, is it EVER melancholy and inert! JESUS!

I try and draw you out, you just retreat more. Do you even WANT friends? ...

Too much IEI in my life.

The type of INFp whom you are describing reminds me of the Ni-INFps I have known irl......

[Lobo]

I think I "get" IEIs for the most part. They can't help but entertain thoughts in their head about the darker side of life, the negative progress of events. It's not that they enjoy doing so because no one does (even though they claim they do as a coping strategy), but it's something their minds seem to be wired to do. You can't just show them a potentially life threatening scenario, and not have them imagine someone dying, scene by scene in their heads... Noticing how predictable things can be is a depressing experience as well. They can (and probably will) go to great depths to explore a dark side of the human experience in their mind. The problem is that they probably don't have an escape plan, and end up going deeper and deeper, which will undoubtedly change their general mood to one that requires isolation to breathe.

They are more inclined towards observation, rather than active participation of the events around them too. Combined with how sensitive they can be, there's a reason for being insular. If they externalize and become active, truly accept that they aren't guru know-it-alls of humanity (which is what makes them world weary), and in some cases just get over themselves, then they probably could lead happier and more social lives as I've seen many do.

If they complain about being alone and misunderstood, they probably are, regardless of you seeing otherwise. The fact is, most people are like this as well, but don't dwell on it. You can accept it as truth and not be depressed about it without having to live in a fairy tale world. The goal to get through to an insular IEI if you care about them enough, imo, is to help them remove unrealistic-idealistic expectations. They have to suffer a mental death of those expectations in order to be reborn into a happier person. It's like flipping a switch. Encouraging the development, or at least non-avoidance, of non-quadra functions can help a lot too (would recommend Fi and Ne in particular, since it's easier for beta NFs, don't just shut them off because they are not naturally beta). Seeing how other types deal with similar situations and adapting them to your own style is helpful too.

[Cat King Cole]

Go away.

Stop polluting the forum.

See what I did there?

[Creepy-male]

Sometimes its you, sometimes its everyone else, but its never absolutely one or the other.

Have fun

[silke]

I try and draw you out, you just retreat more. Do you even WANT friends? ...

Too much IEI in my life.

stop going after these IEIs then and go after people who are more open and receptive - why do extraverts keep going after introverts and then get frustrated and complain how they are, well, introverted?

these IEIs will sort out their problems, which may take years of empty philosophizing, pointless intellectual masturbation, a couple of existential crises and may be some drugs, and then when they are ready they'll come out

[rat1]

It's one thing to insult our laziness, it's a whole nother thing to insult our music.

I think I "get" IEIs for the most part. They can't help but entertain thoughts in their head about the darker side of life, the negative progress of events. It's not that they enjoy doing so because no one does (even though they claim they do as a coping strategy), but it's something their minds seem to be wired to do. You can't just show them a potentially life threatening scenario, and not have them imagine someone dying, scene by scene in their heads... Noticing how predictable things can be is a depressing experience as well. They can (and probably will) go to great depths to explore a dark side of the human experience in their mind. The problem is that they probably don't have an escape plan, and end up going deeper and deeper, which will undoubtedly change their general mood to one that requires isolation to breathe.

They are more inclined towards observation, rather than active participation of the events around them too. Combined with how sensitive they can be, there's a reason for being insular. If they externalize and become active, truly accept that they aren't guru know-it-alls of humanity (which is what makes them world weary), and in some cases just get over themselves, then they probably could lead happier and more social lives as I've seen many do.

If they complain about being alone and misunderstood, they probably are, regardless of you seeing otherwise. The fact is, most people are like this as well, but don't dwell on it. You can accept it as truth and not be depressed about it without having to live in a fairy tale world. The goal to get through to an insular IEI if you care about them enough, imo, is to help them remove unrealistic-idealistic expectations. They have to suffer a mental death of those expectations in order to be reborn into a happier person. It's like flipping a switch. Encouraging the development, or at least non-avoidance, of non-quadra functions can help a lot too (would recommend Fi and Ne in particular, since it's easier for beta NFs, don't just shut them off because they are not naturally beta). Seeing how other types deal with similar situations and adapting them to your own style is helpful too.

for real lobo. I feel you dog.

This sounds exactly like a LTR I had with an SEE. She would always fucking complain and I would get pissed about being invalidated and then not talk to her for a couple days and then everything would be fine again and then she would become a bitch again, on and on, and we would accuse each other of being the one at fault because we were both wanting totally opposite things. Is this about right?

Sounds like you both demotivate one another with your expectations. This is how I understand the HA in duality is that if you were with an ILI, he would provide Te and that would produce your Fi, but instead you're getting Fe which doesn't validate and motivate you. And he's getting Fi, which doesn't validate and motivate him.

...I guess...whatever.

I still have a point if you want it.

The main appeal of semi duality is free sex and excitement. Or is that because SEE is my semi dual...

[ScarlettLux]

Go away.

Stop polluting the forum.

See what I did there?

Seriously who the fuck are you. Get the fuck out of my thread if you don't like it. Seriously. Are you that obsessed with me you have to continually reply to threads that you feel are "polluting" the forum? And no I didn't "see what you did there" ugh.

Get over yourself, this is a goddamn forum for a pseudo-scientific personality theory.

[ScarlettLux]

I try and draw you out, you just retreat more. Do you even WANT friends? ...

Too much IEI in my life.

stop going after these IEIs then and go after people who are more open and receptive - why do extraverts keep going after introverts and then get frustrated and complain how they are, well, introverted?

these IEIs will sort out their problems, which may take years of empty philosophizing, pointless intellectual masturbation, a couple of existential crises and may be some drugs, and then when they are ready they'll come out

Ha. I guess that's true. But on a surface level I just am attracted to introverts.. extraverts just annoy me because I feel like they're taking my spotlight with their incessant chatter and activity... Yeah I guess you're right, can't ever win!

[silverchris9]

Dur.

you french ? what the meaning of this if not ?

...no? In the US it's like a synonym for "Duh," which roughly means, "I am surprised you were not aware of the information I just supplied." What does it mean in French?

[silverchris9]

I think I "get" IEIs for the most part. They can't help but entertain thoughts in their head about the darker side of life, the negative progress of events. It's not that they enjoy doing so because no one does (even though they claim they do as a coping strategy), but it's something their minds seem to be wired to do. You can't just show them a potentially life threatening scenario, and not have them imagine someone dying, scene by scene in their heads... Noticing how predictable things can be is a depressing experience as well. They can (and probably will) go to great depths to explore a dark side of the human experience in their mind. The problem is that they probably don't have an escape plan, and end up going deeper and deeper, which will undoubtedly change their general mood to one that requires isolation to breathe.

They are more inclined towards observation, rather than active participation of the events around them too. Combined with how sensitive they can be, there's a reason for being insular. If they externalize and become active, truly accept that they aren't guru know-it-alls of humanity (which is what makes them world weary), and in some cases just get over themselves, then they probably could lead happier and more social lives as I've seen many do.

If they complain about being alone and misunderstood, they probably are, regardless of you seeing otherwise. The fact is, most people are like this as well, but don't dwell on it. You can accept it as truth and not be depressed about it without having to live in a fairy tale world. The goal to get through to an insular IEI if you care about them enough, imo, is to help them remove unrealistic-idealistic expectations. They have to suffer a mental death of those expectations in order to be reborn into a happier person. It's like flipping a switch. Encouraging the development, or at least non-avoidance, of non-quadra functions can help a lot too (would recommend Fi and Ne in particular, since it's easier for beta NFs, don't just shut them off because they are not naturally beta). Seeing how other types deal with similar situations and adapting them to your own style is helpful too.

...I disagree. I mean, I get all of your points, and I think they're accurate, but I disagree with your solutions. I mean, it's all well and good to say, "abandon your dreams and fantasies since they're unrealistic, and just live life." But that's a shallow way to live. IEIs are about experience just as much as SLEs---we're just more about removing the internal barriers to experience. You can experience the world in a teacup if you take off your blinders, that sort of thing. So the reason that we---or at least I---don't try to turn off the negative side of life is because unless you're extraordinarily careful and have a very strong memory, it's almost impossible to sort of selectively decide what you want to block out. Blocking out one piece of life leads to blocking out more and more and more until you're lying to yourself about 90% of life. And who wants to live off of 10%?

So no, I don't want to give up my grandiose fantasies so I can get along better "in the real world." There are more important things than getting along well in the real world. And maybe you can achieve acceptance, acceptance of the fact that you're going to be lonely or isolated to some degree ("I perceive I have not really understood any thing, not a single
object, and that no man ever can"), that no one's going to come along and be the other you (unless you get lucky and that someone comes along), except maybe for a few good minutes on a Sunday in the park with a Campagna. But you have to achieve that acceptance, you have to work on it and work through it, rather than simply patching a not-very-thorough lie on top of it like, "that's just the way it is."

And besides, we shouldn't have to accept life the way it is. Even if we never see the change in the flesh, I refuse to accept the idea that tragedy is the end-result of life. And maybe I'm not a guru know-it-all, but at least I'm striving for something high rather than settling for something comfortable. It is better to die a knight of the absurd ("to reach the unreachable star") than live an old man in a cabin feeding off the specters in books. Better a life-in-death than a death-in-life.

Don't give up your fantasies and dreams. (Editorial) You need them and the world needs them. Other people need them. Life and flesh will overcome you soon enough without your complicity in your own murder.


Now, all that said, you don't have to be a fairy in the clouds all the time. You can get work done and be realistic about work that you need to get done; that's the other part of opening yourself to truth and experience and knowledge. But if you have to lose either the pragmatism or the idealism, lose the pragmatism. There are enough pragmatists in the world anyway. But if you can sustain the balance, and be both, and know both, and do both, do that. Because you're strong enough to do it, know it, and be it, even if it hurts.

[mundaneday]

stop going after these IEIs then and go after people who are more open and receptive - why do extraverts keep going after introverts and then get frustrated and complain how they are, well, introverted?

these IEIs will sort out their problems, which may take years of empty philosophizing, pointless intellectual masturbation, a couple of existential crises and may be some drugs, and then when they are ready they'll come out

Ha. I guess that's true. But on a surface level I just am attracted to introverts.. extraverts just annoy me because I feel like they're taking my spotlight with their incessant chatter and activity... Yeah I guess you're right, can't ever win!

Just because we introverts don't like the spotlight doesn't mean we want to be the audience. Surrounding yourself with introverts won't make you the centre of attention. It just makes you the loudest.

If you're as transparent to them as you are on this forum it is no wonder IEI's don't open up to you. They won't let in someone they think want them on a superficial level.

[Aleksei]

Goddamnit. You all annoy me to no end. How anyone could ever think I'm an IEI is beyond me, considering I am really getting to know how they "work" ... we clash so often.

One thing in particular is their insularity. Maybe this is just an sp first thing, or even an introverted thing but with some IEIs... omg I could wring their necks because they're so hidden, yet they complain and whine about feeling alone and "misunderstood".

Damn... like you know you could maybe exercise some and get out there & stop bashing "OTHER" people as the crazies of this world, when really it's just your own pretentiousness?

I hate when IEIs get all negative and depressed about the supposed injustices and superficiality of the world. Musicians like Thom Yorke, Morrissey... kill me now. I would slap some sense to them if I ever met them. Their allegedly "brilliant" music may be so but God, is it EVER melancholy and inert! JESUS!

I try and draw you out, you just retreat more. Do you even WANT friends? ...

Too much IEI in my life.

Lulz @ the pissed-off ESE.

[golden]

Hm. I generally really like introverts and feel instantly protective toward them. I find their so-called insularity really intriguing. What's going on in that person's world? Will they let me in? If they do, I feel really privileged. There's something beautiful and steady about that rich inner space.

I type my best friend IEI, and although at times she has been a bit ... lost in realms that I don't experience--I believe she'd agree with that assessment--I am so grateful that she shares her reality with me and, increasingly (through art) with the world at large.

Go, little IEI poets, go!!!!!!!

[Lobo]

...I disagree. I mean, I get all of your points, and I think they're accurate, but I disagree with your solutions. I mean, it's all well and good to say, "abandon your dreams and fantasies since they're unrealistic, and just live life." But that's a shallow way to live. IEIs are about experience just as much as SLEs---we're just more about removing the internal barriers to experience. You can experience the world in a teacup if you take off your blinders, that sort of thing. So the reason that we---or at least I---don't try to turn off the negative side of life is because unless you're extraordinarily careful and have a very strong memory, it's almost impossible to sort of selectively decide what you want to block out. Blocking out one piece of life leads to blocking out more and more and more until you're lying to yourself about 90% of life. And who wants to live off of 10%?

Hmm, I think there's some misunderstanding issue here. My point is to not block out those thoughts, and definitely not just make the negative side of life just "disappear" by blocking, but to not let them get to your emotional state. This is why I mentioned unrealistic expectations, in that people often get depressed by things because of an expectation that doesn't have to be "there." For example, ok, you realize you're alone and misunderstood. Instead of letting get you down, focus on why that would make you depressed. It's about changing your outlook on life. It doesn't mean you have to settle and not have goals.

So no, I don't want to give up my grandiose fantasies so I can get along better "in the real world." There are more important things than getting along well in the real world. And maybe you can achieve acceptance, acceptance of the fact that you're going to be lonely or isolated to some degree ("I perceive I have not really understood any thing, not a single
object, and that no man ever can"), that no one's going to come along and be the other you (unless you get lucky and that someone comes along), except maybe for a few good minutes on a Sunday in the park with a Campagna. But you have to achieve that acceptance, you have to work on it and work through it, rather than simply patching a not-very-thorough lie on top of it like, "that's just the way it is."

And besides, we shouldn't have to accept life the way it is. Even if we never see the change in the flesh, I refuse to accept the idea that tragedy is the end-result of life. And maybe I'm not a guru know-it-all, but at least I'm striving for something high rather than settling for something comfortable. It is better to die a knight of the absurd ("to reach the unreachable star") than live an old man in a cabin feeding off the specters in books. Better a life-in-death than a death-in-life.

Don't give up your fantasies and dreams. (Editorial) You need them and the world needs them. Other people need them. Life and flesh will overcome you soon enough without your complicity in your own murder.

Now, all that said, you don't have to be a fairy in the clouds all the time. You can get work done and be realistic about work that you need to get done; that's the other part of opening yourself to truth and experience and knowledge. But if you have to lose either the pragmatism or the idealism, lose the pragmatism. There are enough pragmatists in the world anyway. But if you can sustain the balance, and be both, and know both, and do both, do that. Because you're strong enough to do it, know it, and be it, even if it hurts.

All of this is part of a belief system. Doesn't it sound reasonable to modify your belief system in order to adapt to life, make it easier? That's also my point. Why force an unrealistic and idealistic expectation "just because"? That's just being unnecessarily stubborn and believing you know everything, imo.

[CloudCuckooLander]

All of this is part of a belief system. Doesn't it sound reasonable to modify your belief system in order to adapt to life, make it easier? That's also my point. Why force an unrealistic and idealistic expectation "just because"? That's just being unnecessarily stubborn and believing you know everything, imo.

My apologies for butting in like this, but to put it simply: why force a realistic and non-ideal expectation "just because"? Why sacrifice one's ideals, what keeps one going in life, for sheer ease? To live in the absence of meaning, or in the presence of malleable meaning, is fundamentally empty and purposeless - unless that purpose is ease in and of itself, of course, but this is inherently self-defeating as the easiest way to deal with life is to not deal with it at all. Moreover, one would only consider that argument valid if ease were already one's prime goal - if ease is placed secondary to something else, one would simply not accept ease as of primary importance. Rather, they would say (and I would agree) that one should hold steadfast to their ideals, hold steadfast to what gives oneself purpose and drive to push forward in life - rather than negating those same ideals, negating one's own desires and goals, for something one does not seek.

[JWC3]

External traits and behavioral characteristics a type do not make.

What distinguishes one type from another is their motivations for doing any given thing, but any type can do any given thing be that ignoring the outside world or what have you.

[rat1]

So no, I don't want to give up my grandiose fantasies so I can get along better "in the real world." There are more important things than getting along well in the real world. And maybe you can achieve acceptance, acceptance of the fact that you're going to be lonely or isolated to some degree ("I perceive I have not really understood any thing, not a single
object, and that no man ever can"), that no one's going to come along and be the other you (unless you get lucky and that someone comes along), except maybe for a few good minutes on a Sunday in the park with a Campagna. But you have to achieve that acceptance, you have to work on it and work through it, rather than simply patching a not-very-thorough lie on top of it like, "that's just the way it is."

And besides, we shouldn't have to accept life the way it is. Even if we never see the change in the flesh, I refuse to accept the idea that tragedy is the end-result of life. And maybe I'm not a guru know-it-all, but at least I'm striving for something high rather than settling for something comfortable. It is better to die a knight of the absurd ("to reach the unreachable star") than live an old man in a cabin feeding off the specters in books. Better a life-in-death than a death-in-life.

Don't give up your fantasies and dreams. (Editorial) You need them and the world needs them. Other people need them. Life and flesh will overcome you soon enough without your complicity in your own murder.

Now, all that said, you don't have to be a fairy in the clouds all the time. You can get work done and be realistic about work that you need to get done; that's the other part of opening yourself to truth and experience and knowledge. But if you have to lose either the pragmatism or the idealism, lose the pragmatism. There are enough pragmatists in the world anyway. But if you can sustain the balance, and be both, and know both, and do both, do that. Because you're strong enough to do it, know it, and be it, even if it hurts.

All of this is part of a belief system. Doesn't it sound reasonable to modify your belief system in order to adapt to life, make it easier? That's also my point. Why force an unrealistic and idealistic expectation "just because"? That's just being unnecessarily stubborn and believing you know everything, imo.

Because some people have standards. And think for themselves.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

All this neurotic ranting about IEIs being too idealistic or too 'fairytale land' is a moot point.

The creator of Xena: Warrior Princess was playing complete make-believe, and they still were successful in life and raked in the dough. Right?

A jewish actor playing somebody else on tv is completely in make-believe lala land, but they still are most likely way more richer and successful than you. And it's all a joke. It's all nothing. There is nothing 'real' about what they're doing!!! A narcissist CEO writer of a hit hollywood show is most likely an IEI type.

And this is objective. You can't deny that.

An IEI just needs to be in a situation where our more ideal natures will shine.

Being logical and rational is overrated. You can still succeed in life being an emotional IEI. LoL. It's all about finding the right sort of thing that suits you.

Middle-class jobs do not really suit an IEI usually, so we rant against them.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I just took a huge shit. But the piece of shit is real. Because it's real in REALITY I have to be a real man and smear it all over my face or I'm being too much of a fuzzy-clouded idealist. We can't have that...

I have to face reality. I have to smear this turd all over my face or I'm not being a practical worthy human being. Because after all, this piece of shit is real but my ideals that humankind can love each other and get along is just misty faggy nothingness. Why bother to do anything at all. I might as well just realistically smear feces on my faces because it's REAL.

You see how silly that is?

If you're a daydreamer than you're a daydreamer. You have to just accept your nature and work with it. If other people don't like it. Guess what?

It's called laughing at them all the way to the bank!!!

[Creepy-Snaps]

I hate when IEIs get all negative and depressed about the supposed injustices and superficiality of the world. Musicians like Thom Yorke, Morrissey... kill me now. I would slap some sense to them if I ever met them. Their allegedly "brilliant" music may be so but God, is it EVER melancholy and inert! JESUS!

I try and draw you out, you just retreat more. Do you even WANT friends? ...

A lot of people like complaining. It's easy. Few people like doing, and taking action to solve their problems.

[silverchris9]

[quote=Lobo;786705]
Hmm, I think there's some misunderstanding issue here. My point is to not block out those thoughts, and definitely not just make the negative side of life just "disappear" by blocking, but to not let them get to your emotional state. This is why I mentioned unrealistic expectations, in that people often get depressed by things because of an expectation that doesn't have to be "there." For example, ok, you realize you're alone and misunderstood. Instead of letting get you down, focus on why that would make you depressed. It's about changing your outlook on life. It doesn't mean you have to settle and not have goals.[QUOTE]

No, there's no misunderstanding. I just think what I said is a natural consequence of what you said, and you disagree. To me, focusing on the positive by changing your outlook IS blocking out the negative side, by definition.

It all goes back to what you said about idealistic and unrealistic goals/expectations. I have the idealistic and unrealistic goal of having a complete perspective, a perspective that sees and---this is important---experiences the good and the bad, all the time. Fundamentally, it's about understanding the that world is good and evil, and understanding the radical extent to which it is good (dedicating ones live to humble service of others), the radical extent to which it is evil (Nazis, baby-killers), and the radical extent to which it is both (Shakespeare's villains, most major historical figures).

Now, is it unrealistic and idealistic to try to do that and walk around every day with your head up, doing your daily work effectively, getting your daily bread, tending to your kids, watering the plants, keeping up your house, going on family vacations, keeping your spouse happy, pleasing your boss so you can climb the ladder, making more money so your kid can go to college, blah blah blah blah blah? Yes, totally. Is that the goal anyway? Yes, totally.

All of this is part of a belief system. Doesn't it sound reasonable to modify your belief system in order to adapt to life, make it easier? That's also my point. Why force an unrealistic and idealistic expectation "just because"? That's just being unnecessarily stubborn and believing you know everything, imo.

It's not believing you know everything, not at all. It's believing you know something that's more important than how you get along on a day to day basis. If there's nothing more important than day-to-day existence, then fine. But that's a world I don't have a whole lot of interest in being in. Even if it's chimerical, I personally would rather live in an illusion of meaning than face the "hard truth" of meaninglessness, especially when there is no way to know for sure whether there are values and causes and forces that are more important than everyday life, and when, yes, my heart tells me that there are important things in life.

I do understand why that comes off as arrogance (see: esoteric vs. exoteric knowledge). But arrogant =/= wrong. And sometimes you have to take a chance on what you believe in. Regardless, I'm willing to bet the farm on it, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I suffer the discomfort of living a life based on transcendent values that turned out not to be there. If nothing else, I made myself feel something, I made my life more exciting.

Summary: I would rather modify the world to my belief system than modify my belief system to the world. Of course, that's a dangerous attitude and one that can get you and others in a LOT of trouble---if your belief system is wrong. And it can get you and others in LOT of good things---if your belief system is right. That's why we need more conservative people to say, "I'm going to live according to what makes the most sense and make myself think in whatever way will best help me get along." And we need more adventurous people to say, "I'm going to try to live my beliefs, whether it hurts me or not." Balance, man, yin and yang, that shit.

And that said, I don't really mean what I said. Because I don't believe that I'm modifying the world to my beliefs. I believe that I'm modifying my beliefs to the real world, the idea of the world, the essence of the world, rather than the daily accidents I'm surrounded by.

This is very illustrative of quadra differences btw. I just have to wonder to what degree our knowledge of socionics is shaping our discussion, whether or not we're falling into obvious quadra roles because we believe they exist, etc.

[Lobo]

My apologies for butting in like this, but to put it simply: why force a realistic and non-ideal expectation "just because"? Why sacrifice one's ideals, what keeps one going in life, for sheer ease? To live in the absence of meaning, or in the presence of malleable meaning, is fundamentally empty and purposeless - unless that purpose is ease in and of itself, of course, but this is inherently self-defeating as the easiest way to deal with life is to not deal with it at all. Moreover, one would only consider that argument valid if ease were already one's prime goal - if ease is placed secondary to something else, one would simply not accept ease as of primary importance. Rather, they would say (and I would agree) that one should hold steadfast to their ideals, hold steadfast to what gives oneself purpose and drive to push forward in life - rather than negating those same ideals, negating one's own desires and goals, for something one does not seek.

You can achieve things in life, have goals, and that provides you with meaning. I'm not arguing against that at all. My issue is in those goals being unrealistic and thus making life unnecessarily complicated, and being able to evaluate your expectations in an objective way so as to remove them when this is the case. Many times people hold on to expectations that are either instilled in them by their upbringing or by their own human fears, which don't have to be there and will lessen your quality of life (psychologically). An example of this is being world weary, which is definitely not a happy experience. I was also going to say "unproductive" but then people might just start saying it's a Te valuer type of thing to say.

Because some people have standards. And think for themselves.

Sure, if you want to have standards that make you depressed often, no one will stop you. I see it as a sign of a flawed belief system when things get to you emotionally in a negative way often, making you stagnate as well.

No, there's no misunderstanding. I just think what I said is a natural consequence of what you said, and you disagree. To me, focusing on the positive by changing your outlook IS blocking out the negative side, by definition.

See, that's where I see a misunderstanding, because I've never said anything about focusing on the positive or negative. I'm talking about letting things get to you and make you depressed enough to affect other areas of your life that will undoubtedly lessen your happiness. Thoughts depress you when you expect something different than what is. I'm not saying to not have goals to change things, but to not expect or hope for them to happen because you really don't know if they will, and instead, be open to understanding the actual process of things and modifying your emotional attachments towards them. That's why I mention that not letting go of the expectations and getting depressed when things happen is a sign of believing that you know more than you actually do.

It all goes back to what you said about idealistic and unrealistic goals/expectations. I have the idealistic and unrealistic goal of having a complete perspective, a perspective that sees and---this is important---experiences the good and the bad, all the time. Fundamentally, it's about understanding the that world is good and evil, and understanding the radical extent to which it is good (dedicating ones live to humble service of others), the radical extent to which it is evil (Nazis, baby-killers), and the radical extent to which it is both (Shakespeare's villains, most major historical figures).

Now, is it unrealistic and idealistic to try to do that and walk around every day with your head up, doing your daily work effectively, getting your daily bread, tending to your kids, watering the plants, keeping up your house, going on family vacations, keeping your spouse happy, pleasing your boss so you can climb the ladder, making more money so your kid can go to college, blah blah blah blah blah? Yes, totally. Is that the goal anyway? Yes, totally.

All those are choices you make, and it seems like you're glorifying the struggle. That attitude of balancing things without evaluating how they are affecting you negatively affects your quality of life. What I'm advocating is to look at things with a more detached perspective and questioning them. When I read that second paragraph, I think to myself "but you don't have to have kids, have plants, have a house, have a spouse." All of those are choices.

I do understand why that comes off as arrogance (see: esoteric vs. exoteric knowledge). But arrogant =/= wrong. And sometimes you have to take a chance on what you believe in. Regardless, I'm willing to bet the farm on it, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I suffer the discomfort of living a life based on transcendent values that turned out not to be there. If nothing else, I made myself feel something, I made my life more exciting.

That to me is glorifying unnecessary suffering. You can have an exciting life pursuing things that are attainable yet far out of your reach (but you know you can reach them), and still have an emotional rollercoaster if you're into that.

This is very illustrative of quadra differences btw. I just have to wonder to what degree our knowledge of socionics is shaping our discussion, whether or not we're falling into obvious quadra roles because we believe they exist, etc.

I'm not letting it affect me at all. In fact, I'll probably disagree with a lot of deltas on this.

[silverchris9]

See, that's where I see a misunderstanding, because I've never said anything about focusing on the positive or negative. I'm talking about letting things get to you and make you depressed enough to affect other areas of your life that will undoubtedly lessen your happiness. Thoughts depress you when you expect something different than what is. I'm not saying to not have goals to change things, but to not expect or hope for them to happen because you really don't know if they will, and instead, be open to understanding the actual process of things and modifying your emotional attachments towards them. That's why I mention that not letting go of the expectations and getting depressed when things happen is a sign of believing that you know more than you actually do.

...okay, I guess there is a misunderstanding here.

When you say "letting things get to you and make you depressed..." I'm saying that not "letting things get to you" is blocking them out. Same thing. It's like... having the capacity to block out certain stimuli.

Here's a good analogy: when you have a certain decibel level of sound, your ears naturally block out certain parts of the sound in order to maintain your hearing. You're saying, yes, go ahead, listen to the whole sound, but don't let it hurt your ears. I'm saying, if you don't let it hurt your ears, you're not listening to the whole sound. Make sense?

Also, I wasn't talking about expecting things either. I was talking about continuing to want things, and allowing yourself to experience the pain of not having them.

All those are choices you make, and it seems like you're glorifying the struggle. That attitude of balancing things without evaluating how they are affecting you negatively affects your quality of life. What I'm advocating is to look at things with a more detached perspective and questioning them. When I read that second paragraph, I think to myself "but you don't have to have kids, have plants, have a house, have a spouse." All of those are choices.

1. Who said glorifying a struggle is a bad thing? How do you gain muscle mass? By tiring out your muscles. How do you get stronger? By struggling. If you're not doing anything that's making you sweat (metaphorically), you're not growing.

2. I guess you didn't get the point of my list of responsibilities. I wasn't trying to say that you have to do all of those things at all. I was just providing some hypothetical forces that would make it difficult to achieve the goal of having a balanced perspective on life. The point is that there are always practical responsibilities people have that make it difficult for people to experience all of their emotional pain AND all of the joy of life AND take care of practicalities, to "hear the whole sound" in the metaphor above.

3. As far as detachment and objectivity and all, that's all well and good for some people, but the world needs people that hold to their beliefs too, and who try to do very difficult or impossible things, too. Trying to be great is worth it, even if you fail.

That to me is glorifying unnecessary suffering. You can have an exciting life pursuing things that are attainable yet far out of your reach (but you know you can reach them), and still have an emotional rollercoaster if you're into that.

Sure, you can have an exciting life, but... you can't have the best life. I mean, the absolute best life is the life that makes the unattainable attainable. But the second best is trying and failing to reach the unreachable star. Because the most important things are the most difficult ones.

This is very illustrative of quadra differences btw. I just have to wonder to what degree our knowledge of socionics is shaping our discussion, whether or not we're falling into obvious quadra roles because we believe they exist, etc.

I'm not letting it affect me at all. In fact, I'll probably disagree with a lot of deltas on this.

We're following the exact dynamic I talked about here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=32713

Often, the Beta NF will see the celerity with which the Delta NF recovers and say, "Oh, you must be unhealthy! You repressed all that shit that happened to you! You didn't wallow in your emotions long enough to figure out what exactly happened! It must not have really hurt you at all, if you recovered like that." And often, the Delta NF will see the Beta NF's wallowing and say, "Oh, you must be unhealthy! You're damaging your close relationships by staying stuck in this fog of focusing on your own emotions! You refuse to look at the bigger picture of how your attitudes are affecting your life! Instead, you just focus on you and how you feel. That's a selfish attitude." And yes, both perspectives are logical. But the fact is that the Delta NF can be quite healthy focusing on the positive and recovering, and the Beta NF can be quite healthy focusing on the negative and pursuing some kind of discovery of the self.

Beta NF: Focus on the negative aspects so you can discover the Truth! Don't focus on negative things if you don't have to, but do whatever you have to do to discover the Truth, even if it interferes with your life!
Delta NF: Don't focus on the negative aspects so you can get along in life! Focus on negative things if you have to, but don't let it interfere with your life!

[redbaron]

When you say "letting things get to you and make you depressed..." I'm saying that not "letting things get to you" is blocking them out. Same thing. It's like... having the capacity to block out certain stimuli.

yes. Take it from someone who's spent much of my life "not letting things get to me" and is now paying for it, dearly.

Beta NF: Focus on the negative aspects so you can discover the Truth! Don't focus on negative things if you don't have to, but do whatever you have to do to discover the Truth, even if it interferes with your life!

[tcaudilllg]

You know I increasingly realize that you IEIs are "doctors of the soul". You strive to make us rethink our choices and our ideals. And it doesn't seem that you do judge, necessarily; rather, you try to make people make the choices and seek the ideals that bring them inner peace. Some of you... others it seems like you are most about condemning as a way of safeguarding what you see as your own peace.

[tcaudilllg]

It's one thing to insult our laziness, it's a whole nother thing to insult our music.

I think I "get" IEIs for the most part. They can't help but entertain thoughts in their head about the darker side of life, the negative progress of events. It's not that they enjoy doing so because no one does (even though they claim they do as a coping strategy), but it's something their minds seem to be wired to do. You can't just show them a potentially life threatening scenario, and not have them imagine someone dying, scene by scene in their heads... Noticing how predictable things can be is a depressing experience as well. They can (and probably will) go to great depths to explore a dark side of the human experience in their mind. The problem is that they probably don't have an escape plan, and end up going deeper and deeper, which will undoubtedly change their general mood to one that requires isolation to breathe.

They are more inclined towards observation, rather than active participation of the events around them too. Combined with how sensitive they can be, there's a reason for being insular. If they externalize and become active, truly accept that they aren't guru know-it-alls of humanity (which is what makes them world weary), and in some cases just get over themselves, then they probably could lead happier and more social lives as I've seen many do.

If they complain about being alone and misunderstood, they probably are, regardless of you seeing otherwise. The fact is, most people are like this as well, but don't dwell on it. You can accept it as truth and not be depressed about it without having to live in a fairy tale world. The goal to get through to an insular IEI if you care about them enough, imo, is to help them remove unrealistic-idealistic expectations. They have to suffer a mental death of those expectations in order to be reborn into a happier person. It's like flipping a switch. Encouraging the development, or at least non-avoidance, of non-quadra functions can help a lot too (would recommend Fi and Ne in particular, since it's easier for beta NFs, don't just shut them off because they are not naturally beta). Seeing how other types deal with similar situations and adapting them to your own style is helpful too.

for real lobo. I feel you dog.

This sounds exactly like a LTR I had with an SEE. She would always fucking complain and I would get pissed about being invalidated and then not talk to her for a couple days and then everything would be fine again and then she would become a bitch again, on and on, and we would accuse each other of being the one at fault because we were both wanting totally opposite things. Is this about right?

Sounds like you both demotivate one another with your expectations. This is how I understand the HA in duality is that if you were with an ILI, he would provide Te and that would produce your Fi, but instead you're getting Fe which doesn't validate and motivate you. And he's getting Fi, which doesn't validate and motivate him.

...I guess...whatever.

I still have a point if you want it.

The main appeal of semi duality is free sex and excitement. Or is that because SEE is my semi dual...

Actually I'd say that's probably correct... although after 2 years of sex with my semi-dual I'm not sure I could ever stand another night or not. >_<

[ragnar]

Yep and him I can stand... maybe its just the Fe subtypes

IEIs are a motley crew, diverse. Some good, some bad, some pretty, some ugly. Those that bug me the most are the social engineering masters that have a way of getting into positions where they do real harm, f.i. in gov't, business and media.

[ScarlettLux]

Look.

I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining -- I have a lot of IEI friends and I've taken "action" if you want to call it that. Yes, yes. I'm a bit (maybe more than a bit) blunt & pushy, but how else are things supposed to get done?

The thing that I'm getting at I guess... is how much they want people to be a certain way, or actually, being "selective" about people, yet at the same time whining about how they feel alone. You know what, that's your own choice -- if you are going to be selective and disdainful of the vast majority of allegedly 'normal' people, then so be it, and DON'T COMPLAIN!

But if you're going to sit there and say that you don't make a lot of friends and you want more friends... then why push someone away, aka me, who is trying to get to know you? I'm thinking about one girl in particular, and I definitely don't want to generalize (well I suppose I already have) ... but this has happened with other IEIs too. I mean, we are friends, etc, but it's just like... they keep too much to themselves that it feels like a barrier to me.

I guess I don't have the patience to sift through the 'layers' of an IEI. I expect them to "explode" out of their shells with prodding... but they just retreat more. I open myself up so much to people, and I want the same of others. That's how I feel true friendships develop. The slow burn method of IEI friendships wears me out... the flakiness, the not knowing what they really want.

All I'm saying is that there shouldn't be any moaning and groaning, as long as you own up to your fate -- if you want to live in this fantastical, idealized world where no one is as amazing as you are or can understand your Guru know-it-all ways... then do it. Just don't expect anyone to keep giving you chances and trying to open you up when you close yourself off.