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Thread: Is this description in line with socionics ESI-ISFj?

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    Default Is this description in line with socionics ESI-ISFj?

    Portrait of an HE - Introverted Sensing Feeling Perceiving
    (Introverted Feeling with Extraverted Sensing)
    The Artist

    As an HE, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit into your value system. Your secondary mode is external, where you take things in via your five sense in a literal, concrete fashion.

    They live in the world of sensation possibilities. They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell. They have a strong aesthetic appreciation for art, and are likely to be artists in some form, because they are unusually gifted at creating and composing things which will strongly affect the senses. They have a strong set of values, which they strive to consistently meet in their lives. They need to feel as if they're living their lives in accordance with what they feel is right, and will rebel against anything which conflicts with that goal. They're likely to choose jobs and careers which allow them the freedom of working towards the realization of their value-oriented personal goals.

    They tend to be quiet and reserved, and difficult to get to know well. They hold back their ideas and opinions except from those who they are closest to. They are likely to be kind, gentle and sensitive in their dealings with others. They are interested in contributing to people's sense of well-being and happiness, and will put a great deal of effort and energy into tasks which they believe in.

    They have a strong affinity for aesthetics and beauty. They're likely to be animal lovers, and to have a true appreciation for the beauties of nature. They're original and independent, and need to have personal space. They value people who take the time to understand the HE, and who support the HE in pursuing their goals in their own, unique way. People who don't know them well may see their unique way of life as a sign of carefree light-heartedness, but the HE actually takes life very seriously, constantly gathering specific information and shifting it through their value systems, in search for clarification and underlying meaning.

    They are action-oriented individuals. They are "doers", and are usually uncomfortable with theorizing concepts and ideas, unless they see a practical application. They learn best in a "hands-on" environment, and consequently may become easily bored with the traditional teaching methods, which emphasize abstract thinking. They do not like impersonal analysis, and are uncomfortable with the idea of making decisions based strictly on logic. Their strong value systems demand that decisions are evaluated against their subjective beliefs, rather than against some objective rules or laws.

    They are extremely perceptive and aware of others. They constantly gather specific information about people, and seek to discover what it means. They are usually penetratingly accurate in their perceptions of others.

    They are warm and sympathetic. They genuinely care about people, and are strongly service-oriented in their desire to please. They have an unusually deep well of caring for those who are close to them, and are likely to show their love through actions, rather than words.

    They have no desire to lead or control others, just as they have no desire to be led or controlled by others. They need space and time alone to evaluate the circumstances of their life against their value system, and are likely to respect other people's needs for the same.

    The HE is likely to not give themself enough credit for the things which they do extremely well. Their strong value systems can lead them to be intensely perfectionist, and cause them to judge themselves with unneccesary harshness.

    The HE has many special gifts for the world, especially in the areas of creating artistic sensation, and selflessly serving others. Life is not likely to be extremely easy for the HE, because they take life so seriously, but they have the tools to make their lives and the lives of those close to them richly rewarding experiences.

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    Pretty indistinct, but I detect smatters of Te super id and Se>Ne.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    That looks like an MBTI ISFP description.. which I'd say is only half true for ESI, despite the function similarity. There's a little of ESI and SEI in those MBTI descriptions, imo.

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    Yes it is MBTI ISFP. I have read enough of this Forum to understand that there is no j-p switching rule but this sounds very like ESI to me. Still I had to ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudiaM View Post
    I have read enough of this Forum to understand that there is no j-p switching rule but this sounds very like ESI to me.
    And if you read a little more, you'll find others say it is true. Along with dozens of other opinions and theories that have little to do with either viewpoint.

    I suggest just getting away entirely and not being any type. You only have 5 posts. It's not too late!

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    This clearly MBTI-based description bears little to no resemblance to ESI. It's very close to SEI. There are some similarities between ESI and SEI, as with all quasi identicals. But the only things similar to typical Socionics descriptions for ESI would be the first paragraph (that simply spells out in words an interpretation of introverted feeling with extroverted sensing) a few things here and there about taking life seriously and having a strong value system, and various generalities that could apply to many different types.

    Generally, Socionics sees the functions and their manifestations differently from MBTI, which is what causes the confusion. A Socionist would see someone who fits SEI as demonstrating Si and Fe, but if the person has learned MBTI, she'll likely see Fi and Se in herself.

    How is that possible? Well, first, following Jung, MBTI's Se is all about enjoying sensations from external sources. But Socionics calls this Si. Socionics has a notion that Se is related to power, which is foreign to both Jung and MBTI. An ISFP or INFP who has learned about MBTI will feel that she has introverted feeling because she feels that her feelings are very genuine and personal. Socionics will look at the same thing and call it Fe.

    ...except that Socionists often don't agree with each other because there is no equivalent of CAPT to set the rules...but that's the general idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudiaM View Post
    I have read enough of this Forum to understand that there is no j-p switching rule but this sounds very like ESI to me.
    And if you read a little more, you'll find others say it is true. Along with dozens of other opinions and theories that have little to do with either viewpoint.

    I suggest just getting away entirely and not being any type. You only have 5 posts. It's not too late!
    But no. The great cosmic evil had already grasped one yet sane and innocent sheelping into its grasp. There was no hope for Claudia. No hope at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudiaM View Post
    Yes it is MBTI ISFP. I have read enough of this Forum to understand that there is no j-p switching rule but this sounds very like ESI to me. Still I had to ask.
    It may pertain to an ESI you happen to know. Still, there are enough socionics authors and commentators for you to sift through their work until you find the exact profile you like, or cherry-pick bits and pieces from several to create a made-to-order Franken-type. In fact many of our most esteemed fellows favor those practices, so there's no reason to deny yourself the satisfaction to be found in doing the very same.

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    hm i don't care that much about defending ESIs up here anymore since i am prolly EII right.
    Last edited by kalinoche; 07-03-2011 at 12:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timewu View Post
    i see how most people will think that it's SEI>>>...>>ESI .yeah sure, it is not dark enough.Tbh,I believe that this describes almost perfectly the bright side of ESI.
    FWIW, I've been curious to learn more about ESI, and how close it actually is to MBTI ISFP. I thought I might have been either ISFP or INFP in mbti, but in socionics, things change. SEI sounds a little more like the Swedish Chef from the Muppets. And ESI sounds like the Spanish Inquisition. It's like one extreme of the cheerful hedonist to another of the vengeful moralizer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    SEI sounds a little more like the Swedish Chef from the Muppets. And ESI sounds like the Spanish Inquisition
    Nooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!


    ESIs in my experience are not like the Spanish Inquisition, but if they encounter what they regard as a serious wrong or inconsiderate person, they can be quite tough. On the surface, they may seem a lot like SEIs....quiet, sweet, compassionate, interested in pets, children, and pleasant surroundings. But certain qualities set them apart, such as their strong sense responsibility, firmness, tendency towards hard work and sacrifices, tendency to suggest Te in their speech, and "SEE moments."

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    The MBTI - Socionics function switch is not that bad. It gains a bit more quality for Socionics when you look at Lenore Thomson: http://books.google.com/books?id=sLv...page&q&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    The MBTI - Socionics function switch is not that bad. It gains a bit more quality for Socionics when you look at Lenore Thomson: http://books.google.com/books?id=sLv...page&q&f=false
    This is not what's called "j/p switch" but the opposite: ABCD = ABCd. So yeah, you reverse the functions for introverts, and then the general type descriptions are pretty similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    The MBTI - Socionics function switch is not that bad. It gains a bit more quality for Socionics when you look at Lenore Thomson: http://books.google.com/books?id=sLv...page&q&f=false
    This is not what's called "j/p switch" but the opposite: ABCD = ABCd. So yeah, you reverse the functions for introverts, and then the general type descriptions are pretty similar.
    Mmm, no. These descriptions are primarily based on Jung's Psychological Types, so ISFP or FiSe ~ ISFj.

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    MBTI is also a departure from Jung's types though. Myers said you barely see their Fi.. that the first thing that's apparent about them is their percieving function. It's in the first chapter of her book.

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    I don't really think Thomson cares. She does a good job describing each function dominantly separate from mainstream MBTI. The material is good, though her famous type examples aren't thorough. You usually don't get good material that uses perfectly thorough examples, just situational ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    I don't really think Thomson cares. She does a very good job describing each function dominantly.
    And it doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with Socionics Fi either. I've read the book and glanced at the IFP descriptions many times. Her concentration in the IFP chapter is on ethics, but she gives it an "archetypal imagery" bent, mutable rather than static, and personal values drawn upon ideal perceptions and myths.. secondly, she gives Fi choice making an aesthetic angle.. down to choosing how to "test" the taste of something like spaghetti, for example. Like weighing the present conditions of an object against an ideal aesthetic in the mind, without a recipe. A lot of this could easily fall under the SEI category in Socionics (and a lot of archetype stuff could fall under Ni). It goes without mentioning that a lot of problems she points about these IFP types sounds like Te polr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post

    This is not what's called "j/p switch" but the opposite: ABCD = ABCd. So yeah, you reverse the functions for introverts, and then the general type descriptions are pretty similar.
    Mmm, no. These descriptions are primarily based on Jung's Psychological Types, so ISFP or FiSe ~ ISFj.
    Well, this stuff has been beaten to death around here, but as new people come to the forum, it may not be apparent. Socionics is different. MBTI, Keirsey, Thomson all cluster in a certain direction. Yes, they're all based on Jung. All of them, including MBTI, focus analytically on the functions and talk about them in depth. But the Western ones go in one direction, and Socionics goes the opposite way. Socionics is based on Augusta, not directly on Jung.

    Look at any of the type descriptions by Filatova, Weisband, Stratievskaya, and you'll see that the j/p switch you're using just doesn't work:

    SEI:
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...atievskaya_SEI
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e=Filatova_SEI
    http://www.socioniko.net/fr/1.1.types/se.html

    ESI:
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e=Filatova_ESI
    etc.

    It's because the functions are defined differently, and the view of what behaviors are associated with the functions is different. It's always a surprise to people who are relatively new to Socionics.

    Of course with the Thomson link, there are very few concrete examples, so it's not clear what it's talking about except introverted feeling and extraverted sensing, but there are enough indications that it's referring to how these are viewed in the other typologies to make exceedingly clear that it has little to nothing to do with Socionics, and that these are entirely different from Socionics Fi and Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post

    And it doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with Socionics Fi either. I've read the book and glanced at the IFP descriptions many times. Her concentration in the IFP chapter is on ethics, but she gives it an "archetypal imagery" bent, mutable rather than static, and personal values drawn upon ideal perceptions and myths.. secondly, she gives Fi choice making an aesthetic angle.. down to choosing how to "test" the taste of something like spaghetti, for example. Like weighing the present conditions of an object against an ideal aesthetic in the mind, without a recipe. A lot of this could easily fall under the SEI category in Socionics (and a lot of archetype stuff could fall under Ni). It goes without mentioning that a lot of problems she points about these IFP types sounds like Te polr.
    I tend to see this description as Se creative, Ne-PoLR/Ni, and Te-DS. Not all her examples are perfectly chosen illustrations, ie. if there's a convention from MBTI she finds useful to describe her and Jung's perception of the type, she will develop it, but in the case of her referencing a dichotomal P/J aspect, I find these not all too different from the creative subtype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    That looks like an MBTI ISFP description.. which I'd say is only half true for ESI, despite the function similarity. There's a little of ESI and SEI in those MBTI descriptions, imo.
    Yep. It's a mixture. Much of what it says can be applied to ESIs in specific circumstances, yet it does not convey the right picture of their overall character, IMHO. Basically a particularly artistic and very healthy ESI might look like that, if everything else lines up (i.e. harmonizing subtype, enneagram type 9). But there will be a very large number of ESIs who are very different.
    Anyhow, LIEs and ILEs can be equally similar "from a distance" if everything else lines up - that's why they're quasi-identicals...
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    My opinion

    ESI N --> no artistic abilities, cold-harsh personality
    ESI C --> no artistic abilities, harsh personality
    ESI D --> some artistic abilities, kind personality
    ESI H --> good artistic abilities, kind personality

    And most SEIs have artistic abilities
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    And most SEIs have artistic abilities
    Like in Se art aesthetic ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    My opinion

    ESI N --> no artistic abilities, cold-harsh personality
    ESI C --> no artistic abilities, harsh personality
    ESI D --> some artistic abilities, kind personality
    ESI H --> good artistic abilities, kind personality

    And most SEIs have artistic abilities
    I must have missed something...What are N, C, D, and H?

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    Question -- How shall I recognize my dual, the LIE?

    Or will he be the one to find me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    ← he's over here
    So. Hello Ashton. How ya doin?

    Haha, no but really.

    I have scoured this forum and seen time and time again where LIEs have explictly said that they prefer to be the ones to approach or seek out women.

    So, what's an Se creative lady to do while you clueless extravert men bumble around unaware of your introverted dual?

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    [quote=ClaudiaM;784640]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    So, what's an Se creative lady to do while you clueless extravert men bumble around unaware of your introverted dual?
    Why do you assume they are clueless? They're often not, might just be waiting. So yes as Ashton says, approaching them can work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudiaM View Post
    Yes it is MBTI ISFP. I have read enough of this Forum to understand that there is no j-p switching rule but this sounds very like ESI to me. Still I had to ask.
    Yes, it is more ESI than SEI overall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    My opinion

    ESI N --> no artistic abilities, cold-harsh personality
    ESI C --> no artistic abilities, harsh personality
    ESI D --> some artistic abilities, kind personality
    ESI H --> good artistic abilities, kind personality

    And most SEIs have artistic abilities
    I must have missed something...What are N, C, D, and H?
    The DCNH system of subtypes

    D=Dominant
    C=Creative
    N=Normalizing
    H=Harmonizing

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Dcnh
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post

    I must have missed something...What are N, C, D, and H?
    The DCNH system of subtypes

    D=Dominant
    C=Creative
    N=Normalizing
    H=Harmonizing

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Dcnh
    Gulenko has a lot of interesting ideas, but I don't think this is very mainstream. So what he seems to be saying is that someone may emphasize a function that's not even in his/her ego block. Now what you seem to be saying is that those ESIs who focus on their super-id block (Te and Ni) are the nicer, more artistic ones. Or are you suggesting that an ESI might focus on the Id block (Fe and Si)? It's not clear from the article which non-ego block may be focused on, as there are no examples. What does this say though about quadras if someone's emphasis might be in the opposite quadra of his presumed type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Yes, it is more ESI than SEI overall.
    Just to make sure we're on the same page here and to get some semblance of sanity, I've highlighted the part that I think is clearly SEI. I do this with some reservation, because I believe these descriptions incorrectly confuse level of artistic talent, such as drawing skill or being able to sing in tune or play an instrument well, with type, which I believe is a mistake. Nevertheless, the idea of the carefree, bubbly artist-personality intensely focused on experiencing the senses doesn't fit my view of classical Socionics ESI. Does it fit yours?


    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudiaM View Post
    Portrait of an HE - Introverted Sensing Feeling Perceiving
    The Artist

    They live in the world of sensation possibilities. They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell. They have a strong aesthetic appreciation for art, and are likely to be artists in some form, because they are unusually gifted at creating and composing things which will strongly affect the senses.

    They're independent, and need to have personal space. People who don't know them well may see their unique way of life as a sign of carefree light-heartedness.

    They learn best in a "hands-on" environment, and consequently may become easily bored with the traditional teaching methods.

    They have no desire to lead or control others, just as they have no desire to be led or controlled by others. They need space and time alone to evaluate the circumstances of their life.

    The HE has many special gifts for the world, especially in the areas of creating artistic sensation.

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    After having it read, it seems more like ESI to me, at least some parts. Stick to socionics wanting to get a "read" or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Nevertheless, the idea of the carefree, bubbly artist-personality intensely focused on experiencing the senses doesn't fit my view of classical Socionics ESI. Does it fit yours?


    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudiaM View Post
    Portrait of an HE - Introverted Sensing Feeling Perceiving
    The Artist

    They live in the world of sensation possibilities. They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell. They have a strong aesthetic appreciation for art, and are likely to be artists in some form, because they are unusually gifted at creating and composing things which will strongly affect the senses.

    They're independent, and need to have personal space. People who don't know them well may see their unique way of life as a sign of carefree light-heartedness.

    They learn best in a "hands-on" environment, and consequently may become easily bored with the traditional teaching methods.

    They have no desire to lead or control others, just as they have no desire to be led or controlled by others. They need space and time alone to evaluate the circumstances of their life.

    The HE has many special gifts for the world, especially in the areas of creating artistic sensation.
    That doesn't fit mine either, I agree. In the quote, I cut out what I find to be irrelevant, bolding what's rather SEI. Note that I interpret "personal space" differently in the context of each paragraph, ESIs are the kind of people who try to be always present "where it matters", where "important things" are going on, this is why they often are sacrificing personal space for something SEIs don't give a shit about, though they need their space too. The bold is especially (SEI ∧ ¬ESI), here's a quote which is very true, IMO:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion SEI
    SEIs can be skeptical of beliefs, arguments, and actions that are based on external sources of information or oppose the SEI's values system. Therefore, an SEI could come off as stubborn or rigidly set in their ways. They put more trust in the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates having read many books on the same subject.
    Note that their duals behave in opposite manners: the knowledgeable LIE boasts how many things he knows, read, how many facts and figures he possesses; the knowlegeable ILE boasts the things he came out with, his personal insights and revelations, often defying what's universally believed (in academics or companies they sometimes turn things upside down).
    Last edited by The Ineffable; 06-24-2011 at 03:47 PM. Reason: logic symbols instead of programming operators
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post

    I think the profile is predominantly ESI > SEI;
    Wait, the profile at the top, or the edited one where I cut out most of it and the one that Ineffable further refined?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    an ESI of a more artistic bent would fit it rather well. Georgia O'Keeffe is a good example:
    I don't know much about her. Her paintings seem to suggest some sort of Ni vision, although that could come through in the subconscious of a Gamma-SF. Anyhow, your site is the only place that suggests a type for her, apparently. It might be worthwhile to open a separate thread for her.

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    part of it sounds more like SEI but several parts in the last half sound very ESI. So I guess I see both sides of this.
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    it's pretty much unequivocally an ISFp description. there are just a few isolated lines that could be mistaken for ISFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    part of it sounds more like SEI but several parts in the last half sound very ESI. So I guess I see both sides of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    it's pretty much unequivocally an ISFp description. there are just a few isolated lines that could be mistaken for ISFj.
    Yes, those lines make it sound confusing, I think ClaudiaM focused solely on them, hey you get what you see or want to

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    it's pretty much unequivocally an ISFp description.
    You're pretty much unequivocally ISTj.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    You're pretty much unequivocally ISTj.
    Gotta hand it him, he's damn good at it, subtypes being one's forte can explain that, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Here's a video of her, but she's like 92. There's some younger footage of her around 4:15:

    Georgia O'Keeffe in New Mexico
    ESI is quite possible for her. She doesn't come off as SEI. Here paintings have a sort of bold static quality that might suggest Se, as well as a hint of Ni. She conveys an aura of strength, not the "carefree light-heartedness" mentioned in the description. One person I know whom I think is ESI really likes her work and used to be influenced by her in her own paintings. Another ESI I know is very big on nature and seeing all these beautiful scenic places. But I can't imagine either of them going off to nature by themselves without their families. That's something I can more easily imagine an ILI or SLI doing.

    Probably ILI and SLI would be the alternative typings for her that we might consider, although I don't necessarily disagree with ESI.

    Probably this is a good example of the fallacy of thinking that any type is really the artistic type. It's like picking one of the types and saying that type is good at crossword puzzles or can whistle or is the type that can wiggle his/her ears.

    Maybe an example of some who's both SEI and an artist might be good for comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Probably this is a good example of the fallacy of thinking that any type is really the artistic type.
    Yeah, I wouldn't go that far either. One of the only successful (monetary wise) painters I know is probably ILE. And my brother isn't bad either (although he moved into web design).. he's LSE or SLI.

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