ENTps and empathy

[Beautiful sky]

Would you consider ILE to be empathetic? In what way are they or not?

[Mediator Kam]

I sure hope so :3

[Neverend]

I'm empathetic, but not in your typical F way. Others emotions get to me, like someone crying tears of happiness, but if I sense the presence is too close, like someone I know and their problems being expressed to me, I kind of back off and treat the situation rationally, and as not being that talkative I'm lucky I don't offend anyone . So it comes natural when it feels natural and not forced upon me, iow not something I actually have to deal with but can just experience from the sidelines. Also emotions feel stronger when they're flowing sort of like a peak of a performance. Ie. today someone came at me crying about something, and I was caught by surprise, I just have to look at my own experiences and tell them what they'd expect, and sometimes I feel sad for them after the fact, unless I think it's kind of an old recurrent situation, they should know better than to get worked up about it.

[Beautiful sky]

Ok, let me ask this question another way.

If ****** is ILE (and please don't dispute his type, it's not my objective in this thread), then what about him is considered empathetic, if he is a normal ILE?

[Galen]

Most of the healthy ENTps I've known are easily capable of empathy, and I've seen it from them several times throughout my time of knowing them. The fact that this question even has to be asked is frustrating as hell.

If ****** is ILE (and please don't dispute his type, it's not my objective in this thread), then what about him is considered empathetic, if he is a normal ILE?

This would be a relevant question if he was actually ENTp.

[Bluenoir]

A person who can't feel empathy is usaually considered to be very sick if not psychopathic. Type has nothing to do whith this basic human emotion.

[Bluenoir]

Neotropic, you have Fi role and Galen, you have Fi creative; what are you guys thinking?

It means I struggle with understanding social distance, nothing to do with this "empathy" you keep eluding to.

[Beautiful sky]

Neotropic, you have Fi role and Galen, you have Fi creative; what are you guys thinking?

It means I struggle with understanding social distance, nothing to do with this "empathy" you keep eluding to.

Does that mean you don't know who to initiate with socially? Like ask to be your friend, etc?

Social distance, where people and relations fall in, for me is all based on tests and interaction; it's easy for me to see the hierarchy or the order of where people fall in in proximity to me, and each other.

[Bluenoir]

It means I struggle with understanding social distance, nothing to do with this "empathy" you keep eluding to.

Does that mean you don't know who to initiate with socially? Like ask to be your friend, etc?

Yes, I do have trouble initiating social communication. That's not to say I can't feel empathy for someone who is suffering (same goes with Fi polr). I will grant strong Fi may be able to better show it, but to not feel empathy is by definition a psychopath.

[Beautiful sky]

Does that mean you don't know who to initiate with socially? Like ask to be your friend, etc?

Yes, I do have trouble initiating social communication. That's not to say I can't feel empathy for someone who is suffering (same goes with Fi polr). I will grant strong Fi may be able to better show it, but to not feel empathy is by definition a psychopath.

How about if I explained it like this:

"With sympathy you feel for the person; you’re sorry for them or pity them, but you don’t specifically understand what they’re feeling. It takes imagination, work, or possibly a similar experience to get to empathy. Empathy can best be described as feeling with the person. Notice the distinction between for and with. To an extent you are placing yourself in that person’s place, have a good sense of what they feel, and understand their feelings to a degree. Instead of feeling sorry for, you’re sorry with and have clothed yourself in the mantle of someone else’s emotional reactions. Sympathy, in my world, is when you tell someone you have hardly any money and they say, 'Oh, that's too bad' and don't do anything else. Empathy, again where I come from, is when someone else puts themselves in your shoes, and not only shows sympathy, but also emphatically offers to give you some money. I think that sympathy is more just that you feel bad for someone or their predicament, where empathy is where you actually feel what they feel. "

How can ******, being ILE (in my book) express empathy with the above definition?

[Korpsy Knievel]

Explain why you think ****** is ILE and your question will become easier to answer.

[golden]

[Beautiful sky]

****** is ENTp

Alpha because he had an idea of a society which was unrealistic and extraverted because he could control, talk others, manipulate a machine and drive the other quadras to back him up in the drive for a perfect society (or a perfect idea). He took ideas of the "aryan" race, mixed it with a bunch of BS and sold it to Beta, for military and idea backing...everyone else were soldiers. Took ideas and know how they fit into a system, got Beta to support that system with POWER.

I honestly haven't known a single Alpha extravert who hasn't been judgmental about their "idea" of the perfect society and how they would love to get "rid" of people to formulate that society.

[golden]

[Korpsy Knievel]

****** is ENTp

Alpha because he had an idea of a society which was unrealistic and extraverted because he could control, talk others, manipulate a machine and drive the other quadras to back him up in the drive for a perfect society (or a perfect idea). He took ideas of the "aryan" race, mixed it with a bunch of BS and sold it to Beta, for military and idea backing...everyone else were soldiers. Took ideas and know how they fit into a system, got Beta to support that system with POWER.

Empathy and sympathy are noble traits, so we'd better look to the positive side to find these characteristics. What qualities of ******'s do you like or admire the most?

[Beautiful sky]

****** is ENTp

Alpha because he had an idea of a society which was unrealistic and extraverted because he could control, talk others, manipulate a machine and drive the other quadras to back him up in the drive for a perfect society (or a perfect idea). He took ideas of the "aryan" race, mixed it with a bunch of BS and sold it to Beta, for military and idea backing...everyone else were soldiers. Took ideas and know how they fit into a system, got Beta to support that system with POWER.

Empathy and sympathy are noble traits, so we'd better look to the positive side to find these characteristics. What qualities of ******'s do you like or admire the most?

Like:
He was brave and ignoring of other's opinions about what he should do and why and just does it.
He tries ideas that have never been thought of. These ideas, however, kill people.
A brilliant orator, but they were all used to amass and fire an engine of death.
He was fond of kids, but he was only fond of little white kids.
He liked dogs and music (Wagner).


Dislike:
That he had crazy ideas; like suggesting to his mom's doctor to poison her with all sorts of drugs in a private search to find a cure for her cancer. He has no consideration for the fact that these drugs were poison.

But, those are all matters of FACT.

[lemontrees]

This is ridiculous.

Certainly everyone processes the world differently, and perhaps an ILE's empathy might be different from an EII's, but capacity for both sympathy and empathy (as distinct but related states) is not directed related to type.

As for ******...why the fascination?

PS--How do we even know that he wasn't empathetic? (he killed people, yes yes, but it's possible to compartmentalize one's humane emotions when dealing with those that one feels to be less than human...he was certainly crazy, and awful, but was he unempathetic in his personal life? how do you judge when someone has so many other problems?)

[Beautiful sky]

This is ridiculous.

Certainly everyone processes the world differently, and perhaps an ILE's empathy might be different from an EII's, but capacity for both sympathy and empathy (as distinct but related states) is not directed related to type.

As for ******...why the fascination?

PS--How do we even know that he wasn't empathetic? (he killed people, yes yes, but it's possible to compartmentalize one's humane emotions when dealing with those that one feels to be less than human...he was certainly crazy, and awful, but was he unempathetic in his personal life? how do you judge when someone has so many other problems?)

Good point. He may have been:

Fi PoLR

He felt some people were less than human and not corresponded with his requirements so he victimized them. "...irreconcilable in his requirements, he does not pardon those that do not correspond. He is easily emotionally carried away by something. Is sometimes capable of victimizing others."

[golden]

 

[Galen]

How can ******, being ILE (in my book) express empathy with the above definition?

You tell us, it's your book.

[woofwoofl]

I've been letting ILE for ****** rattle around in my brain some, and it'll still have to do some rattling...

I've been thinking about Fred Durst again - he could certainly command the hell out of a crowd, even people who dislike the guy (there are many - I'm not one, by the way) admit that much...



At 1:32 it happens - his intention is to fire up the crowd in an manner, and it apparently works, but the forcefulness and grandeur comes from the setting, not the speaker himself... "release all of that negative energy" strikes me as / valuing, as do his bodily movements and stage presence (alternating between lumbering around like a gorilla and flapping his arms like a bird, not a lot of attention to forcefulness; ESE Alex Lifeson and ILE Geddy Lee from Alpha quadra band Rush have a maneuver where they stand side to side and start bending back and forth in unison which starts at 2:53 and really gets moving at 3:05 - definitely over , and valuing from the looks of Alex Lifeson at least)...



Nice job breaking it, hero

At 1:48, what looks a lot like -Polr happens from Fred Durst, and... ughhh... just, ughhh...

All of that, combined with the incredibly -oriented liner notes I've read in Limp Bizkit albums in the "Fred Durst" section, lead me to declare with almost certainty that Fred Durst is an ILE - here's the deal sealer:



And this ILE was capable of getting people so fired up that they started deadly riots - and at Woodstock '99, no less!

[Korpsy Knievel]

How can ******, being ILE (in my book) express empathy with the above definition?

You tell us, it's your book.

[Slacker]

Nobody but you thinks ****** is ILE. Don't ask questions that assume your typings are accurate and you might get responses.

[stanprollyright]

Everybody feels empathy.

Even if ****** was unable to do so, it is not type related.

Logical types may have a poorer understanding of empathy, a poorer ability to effectively act on it, and maybe even feel it less often because of their poor understanding of emotions and emotional cues. However, they are still perfectly capable of feeling empathy. To say they aren't is preposterous.

[JWC3]

Everybody feels empathy.

Even if ****** was unable to do so, it is not type related.

Logical types may have a poorer understanding of empathy, a poorer ability to effectively act on it, and maybe even feel it less often because of their poor understanding of emotions and emotional cues. However, they are still perfectly capable of feeling empathy. To say they aren't is preposterous.

I think a better way to put this is that evey one has a hippocampus and amygalda. Or whatever part of the brain is relevant. And if they don't they most likely have bigger problems than empathy.

[Blaze]

i would not say ILE is incapable of empathy but i would say that ethical types are much more capable than ILE is.

how other people feel is not the first thing that ILE thinks of. ILE empathy is greater under the following conditions: if the other person expresses a lot of emotional content that can be received by ILE 6th function, if ILE has been in a similar situation themselves, or if someone close to an ILE has been in similar situation. ILE has to have either emotional activation or experience to feel a higher degree of empathy...if either of these are lacking, it takes more effort for ILE to put themselves in another's shoes, since their mind is on ideas more than people.

[mu4]

I never think capable or incapable of empathy matters too much to ILE. I think sociotype doesn't deal with the ability to be empathetic or not. You will see variation of the levels of empathy within a sociotype. However how a ILE communicate and deal with others can often lack empathy. This doesn't deal with whether they feel it or not, but rather they simply choose a different route to deal with such a situation.

I can be empathetic, but ultimately it's not a method I choose to interact with others, I rather interact with other using ideas, reasoning, a massive beat down, emotional and physical abuse, strangulation. Ultimately, I find these to be better means of dealing with others and more comfortable. Actually what am I saying, I don't actually want to interact with others!!!



all, don't take it too seriously.

[stanprollyright]

I think a better way to put this is that evey one has a hippocampus and amygalda. Or whatever part of the brain is relevant. And if they don't they most likely have bigger problems than empathy.

Well, if you want to get technical, sociopathy et. al. usually stem from chemical imbalances and psychological stuff rather than brain damage/deformity...

[golden]

Well, if you want to get technical, sociopathy et. al. usually stem from chemical imbalances and psychological stuff rather than brain damage/deformity...

An article on damaged brains and psychopathy:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2..._fact_seabrook

[JWC3]

I think a better way to put this is that evey one has a hippocampus and amygalda. Or whatever part of the brain is relevant. And if they don't they most likely have bigger problems than empathy.

Well, if you want to get technical, sociopathy et. al. usually stem from chemical imbalances and psychological stuff rather than brain damage/deformity...

Either way, decidedly not type related.

[stanprollyright]

ESE Alex Lifeson and ILE Geddy Lee from Alpha quadra band Rush have a maneuver where they stand side to side and start bending back and forth in unison which starts at 2:53 and really gets moving at 3:05 - definitely over , and valuing from the looks of Alex Lifeson at least)...

Ooh! Rush is my favorite band! I wouldn't call them an alpha band, because I'm pretty sure Neil Peart, who writes most of their lyrics, is ILI. I would say SEI for Lifeson, I could see ILE for Lee (I'll have to think about it).

Nice job breaking it, hero

It made shoes for orphans...

Either way, decidedly not type related.

Like I keep saying, we need an NTR emoticon.

[Aleksei]

They can be, but in a pretty weird way. xLEs have trouble understanding implicit sensibilities (which means they can easily steamroll over them unintentionally), but are easily able to understand expressed emotions. xLIs by contrast have serious trouble with expression; they just think it's pointless histrionics.

Ok, let me ask this question another way.

If ****** is ILE (and please don't dispute his type, it's not my objective in this thread), then what about him is considered empathetic, if he is a normal ILE?

Fe. And no, he wasn't ILE, that's dumb.

[redbaron]

LOL

[redbaron]

i would not say ILE is incapable of empathy but i would say that ethical types are much more capable than ILE is.

how other people feel is not the first thing that ILE thinks of. ILE empathy is greater under the following conditions: if the other person expresses a lot of emotional content that can be received by ILE 6th function, if ILE has been in a similar situation themselves, or if someone close to an ILE has been in similar situation. ILE has to have either emotional activation or experience to feel a higher degree of empathy...if either of these are lacking, it takes more effort for ILE to put themselves in another's shoes, since their mind is on ideas more than people.

perfect. yes.

[Aleksei]

Oh, and lulz @ ****** lacking empathy. ****** was actually widely acknowledged by people who met him personally for his ability to deeply connect with them, or appear to.

[Beautiful sky]

They can be, but in a pretty weird way. xLEs have trouble understanding implicit sensibilities (which means they can easily steamroll over them unintentionally), but are easily able to understand expressed emotions. xLIs by contrast have serious trouble with expression; they just think it's pointless histrionics.

Ok, let me ask this question another way.

If ****** is ILE (and please don't dispute his type, it's not my objective in this thread), then what about him is considered empathetic, if he is a normal ILE?

Fe. And no, he wasn't ILE, that's dumb.

You are so limited in the scope of ideas and possibilities that you can perceive, it makes me wonder if you are EIE; ******, being ILE in my book, would have Fe activation and making him very animate and expressive speaker, sometimes much more so than Fe types because of how the activation/suggestive function works.

[Korpsy Knievel]

You are so limited in the scope of ideas and possibilities that you can perceive, it makes me wonder if you are EIE; ******, being ILE in my book, would have Fe activation and making him very animate and expressive speaker, sometimes much more so than Fe types because of how the activation/suggestive function works.

How do those functions work in your book?

[Beautiful sky]

You are so limited in the scope of ideas and possibilities that you can perceive, it makes me wonder if you are EIE; ******, being ILE in my book, would have Fe activation and making him very animate and expressive speaker, sometimes much more so than Fe types because of how the activation/suggestive function works.

How do those functions work in your book?

Every seen an SLI sit around and commend people to do things? That's how they work. They suggest to their Extraverted dual to do the things in the way that they come up with. The best example of this is a quote Minde posted in Socionics quote thread. It makes sense because in submersing themselves in the world of the impressions of Sensory information, SLI slow down and take time to inwards and don't or may not have the time or the drive to do external activities, which their dual, IEE, do because the extravert is used to the level of energy output.

[Creepy-male]

This topic suffers from retardation.

And no I'm not on the hate maritsa bandwagon... it just is. ****** didn't lack empathy, ****** was not a psychopath, just a human being with maybe some hateful ideas.

Really I feel the main driver for the nazi thing was that ****** had an insane amount of power and influence. I think racism, genocide, or murder isn't really all that shocking if your looking at the whole of humanity. Its possible if you gave most people that amount of power/influence you'd see problems equal in magnitude to the supposed "evil" ****** displayed.

The fact is you don't see it because people are limited in their influence and power. Someone may desire to kill someone else, but they know at a certain unconscious level, its beaten into them that they can't because a cop will stop them etc... so they learn this is the way things are and eventually they become comfortable with the idea of restraint of their passions. That's entirely different from not killing a person out of empathy for them as a human.

Also ILEs lacking empathy seems to be squeezing a little too much out of the Fi-PoLR if you know what I mean

[MisterNi]

This thread is in serious need of some sensibility. Good thing I'm here.

So here's the Merriam Webster's definition of empathy:

1: the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it
2: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this

Definition 1 is a wtf definition so lets ignore that. Definition 2 is what we're after and by that definition, I am most definitely capable of empathy and have been so in the past.