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Thread: What's the reasoning here?

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    Default What's the reasoning here?

    So, I go over to dinner at my mom's last night and my SEE cousin is there. She's very picky about her food and my mom naturally cooks what she likes; they are duals; it must be a dual thing. I start telling them about me possibly trying out raw milk that has not been pasteurized and my SEE cousin goes into a panic attack. My mom's very silent about it and uses Te, thank goodness, to explain that farmers used to drink it all the time and nothing happened to them and the hype about non pasteurized milk may be a bit over exaggerated. Anyway. My cousin goes on about me trying goat milk...goat milk...goat milk...I'll stop saying that in a while. I must not be all that thrilled about going from raw milk to goat milk and I wonder if someone would explain to me how my mom goes from not being okay with raw milk and going out (I should say RUSHING out) and buying me goat milk. Is this an introverted rational?

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    Goat milk is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Just tell them: "I'm not a freakin' goat to be drinking goat's milk." That's like a typical XLI thing to say, imo.

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    I get raw milk. It's pricey but good.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I'd like to drink milk straight from the cow. But store-bought cow milk is store-bought cow milk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    I get mine from a local farmer I know. But I own a share of the cow. You can only get milk from cows you own here, so you have to purchase a share of the herd and then you get some of the milk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    The google gave me some reasoning, but it was mostly green-y, organic-y, raw-food-y, I'm-better-than-you-'cause-I'm-different-y stuff.
    The google provided exactly what I thought it would. Goooooood google.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Goat milk is good.
    And cheese.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I must not be all that thrilled about going from raw milk to goat milk and I wonder if someone would explain to me how my mom goes from not being okay with raw milk and going out (I should say RUSHING out) and buying me goat milk. Is this an introverted rational?
    Not sure whether it's TR but she interpreted that since the name doesn't contain "raw" it's fine - she associates "raw" with that possible danger to get sick. I would say it's a bit specific to ISFx, out of my experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Goat milk is good.
    And cheese.
    Oh yes, cheese is good, too. Primarily cheddar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    I love all sorts of dairy stuffs.

    And, I want to get a goat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    And, I want to get a goat.
    Don't we all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I get raw milk. It's pricey but good.
    Really? What do you know about it? Is it tested and safe?


    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I must not be all that thrilled about going from raw milk to goat milk and I wonder if someone would explain to me how my mom goes from not being okay with raw milk and going out (I should say RUSHING out) and buying me goat milk. Is this an introverted rational?
    Not sure whether it's TR but she interpreted that since the name doesn't contain "raw" it's fine - she associates "raw" with that possible danger to get sick. I would say it's a bit specific to ISFx, out of my experience.

    Yeah, she can play up her Si role well, but my mom's usually not this proactive about doing these kinds of things for me. I wonder if it's because she senses something in me she doesn't like...IDK...she might think I'm not going very well and want's to take care of me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Really? What do you know about it? Is it tested and safe?
    As a kid I was not usually allowed to drink milk before boiling it, though I drank it raw from time to time and nothing happened, no diarrhea or anything. It's just the rule, AFAIK it may happen to get sick if the animal eats some whatever bacteria, so adults don't want to risk.
    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    And, I want to get a goat.
    Goats are really cool but they require a lot of time, though I'm not sure how different breeds behave. They IME don't eat grass and don't feed in one place like cows and sheep, additionally they're sometimes very stubborn and may get lost. Chasing a goat can be a thorny experience .
    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Don't we all?
    Only Irrationals truly want goats, Rationals think they want goats but they want them be sheep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Don't we all?
    Only Irrationals truly want goats, Rationals think they want goats but they want them be sheep.
    Nice...nice..

    By the way, so you're saying Irrationals = Chupacabras?
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    This is why you collude with a dog to mind the goats, and to track them down if they stray.
    Wrong, as usual.

    1. There's no such thing as dog for goats AFAIK. You can't control goats with the help of dogs, they don't go the other direction but randomly. They also get into dense vegetation or climb abrupt terrain where dogs can't surround them. I took care of goats at my grandma when I was little and I can tell that your metaphor is ignorant.
    2. A guard dog does the opposite job than a shpeherd dog. Another misplaced figure of speech.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    By the way, so you're saying Irrationals = Chupacabras?
    No, I think Irrationals actually exist .
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    2. A guard dog does the opposite job than a shpeherd dog. Another misplaced figure of speech.
    You actually use guardian dogs for that. Herding dogs have a habit of chasing goats, in other words, you don't leave herding dogs with goats unattended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You actually use guardian dogs for that. Herding dogs have a habit of chasing goats, in other words, you don't leave herding dogs with goats unattended.
    In other words I use forest dolphins to dig oranges out of the ground, yeah.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    In other words I use forest dolphins to dig oranges out of the ground, yeah.
    Trained forest guardian dolphins with protective instincts:



    Looks like a forest dolphin to me.

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    pic related
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Looks like a forest dolphin to me.
    I figured that out already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    1. There's no such thing as dog for goats AFAIK. You can't control goats with the help of dogs, they don't go the other direction but randomly. They also get into dense vegetation or climb abrupt terrain where dogs can't surround them.
    AFAIK being the important part, as we'll now demonstrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Friends I lived with kept a very talkative pair of pygmy goats on a rustic property occasionally visited by raccoons, bears, coyotes, and fishers. The goats would always make commentary when those predators appeared. When they were let out of their pen to mow the lawn my dog would also busy herself by noisily chasing them over woodpiles and through brambles, so I'm quite accustomed to hearing the full range of their bleatings.
    My shepherd/lab mutt stayed on the goats' tails whenever they were loose and had no difficulty following them anywhere in the forest. She's quite agile and loves to walk the length of fallen trees like a balance beam, or scramble pell-mell over irregular, brush-strewn terrain (I watch with concern for eye or facial injury whenever she unhesitatingly throws herself into dense undergrowth in pursuit of varmints or for the pure joy of crashing through brambles; the dog's reckless disregard for this sort of personal danger is why her nicknames include Crash Bandicoot and Smash'n'Crash). She never allowed the goats to wander very far, obstructing their movements and barking to force them back to where they belonged (and it was quite funny to watch her evade their attempted headbutts when they felt she was being too bossy; she seemed perplexed that they'd try such an alien-to-canines maneuver). Even if the goats had split up and escaped it'd have been nothing for the dog to track either of them down. Her olfactory powers are amazingly sensitive. For instance, I can throw a random stick into a thicket and she'll return with the correct piece of wood, presumably sniffing it out by identifying the odor left on it from the sweat or oils on my hand. In any event, the dog is quite obviously hardwired to herd beasts like those two goats because she takes to the task unbidden and with great enthusiasm. Though we've yet to see her reaction to sheep she has tried similar tactics with horses and cattle, albeit with less success; her behavior toward cats, squirrels, rabbits, etc. is decidedly predatory and not at all disposed toward herding or benevolent supervision.

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    I took care of goats at my grandma when I was little and I can tell that your metaphor is ignorant.
    I can tell that you're prone to chronic self deceit via overconfidence in your presumptions. You're correct, however, in asserting that goats aren't the best lawnmowers.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    2. A guard dog does the opposite job than a shpeherd dog. Another misplaced figure of speech.
    Show me where I said guard dog. If you'd actually read my statement instead of impressionistically reacting to it, or asked me the basis for making it, you wouldn't be showing your ass like this again. Ne base, ho ho.

    Anyhow, yes, the main concerns that people have with raw milk are that it might be contaminated, and also that some of its proponents are making fantastically new-agey claims about its wondrous health effects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I get raw milk. It's pricey but good.
    Really? What do you know about it? Is it tested and safe?
    The animals are tested regularly for the diseases that get passed into milk. I don't know if they test every batch of milk or not.

    The thing about food is you can get food poisoning from so many sources. We got it from broccoli once. It has been in spinach, tomatoes, and i can't think of what all else. I'm not going to stop eating broccoli, spinach, tomatoes, and every other food that can potentially harbor bacteria. (And these weren't issues where it could be washed off.) You can't eliminate all potential for illness from food, and I feel like the milk we get isn't particularly less safe than anything else. The cows are pasture raised, and the worst illnesses come from cows fed grain in a factory farm setting. Grain is not a cow's natural food and it makes them get sick with the form of e. coli that has caused so much trouble in recent years. And in most farms, animals get each other sick due to how many of them are crammed into a small space. I think what we get is reasonably safe compared to what else is available.

    I've met the farmer and I've seen the farm, and it seems very clean and he appears to be really careful with cleanliness.

    Milk pasteurization is absolutely necessary for most milk because of how the animals are raised, how filthy the farms are, and how the milk is processed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Show me where I said guard dog. If you'd actually read my statement instead of impressionistically reacting to it, or asked me the basis for making it, you wouldn't be showing your ass like this again. Ne base, ho ho.
    Why show you where you said guard dog? You didn't said that, I said. You didn't get it anyway, so forget about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Why show you where you said guard dog? You didn't said that, I said.
    Gold star for you, you're correct. But one wonders why you'd produce objections to points that nobody made.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    You didn't get it anyway, so forget about it.
    Prove it.

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    As far as fantastic claims, yeah I have friends like that, who think it will cure cancer or whatever, and they also think pasteurized milk is poison. Odd. I d believe that pasteurization kills probiotics that could be useful, but I'm more about the grass-fed local thing than anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I d believe that pasteurization kills probiotics that could be useful
    Nutritional changes wrought by cooking are much more sensible and likely-seeming to me, too, since that tends to be the general case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    but I'm more about the grass-fed local thing than anything else.
    While living in the boonies where said dog herded said goats, I bought milk and ice cream from a local dairy when possible, though they did pasteurize. It is quite nice to know the people and the methods that produce one's food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Prove it.
    I don't want to. I think any intelligent person can understand what I meant and why your comparison of my means to a shepherd dog instead of a guard dog is inept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    I don't want to. I think any intelligent person can understand what I meant and why your comparison of my means to a shepherd dog instead of a guard dog is inept.
    my dog = lab + shep

    Courtesy of wikipedia:
    • The Labrador Retriever is one of several kinds of retriever, a type of gun dog. A breed characteristic is webbed paws for swimming, useful for the breed's original purpose of retrieving fishing nets.
    • As part of the Herding Group, the German Shepherd is a working dog developed originally for herding and guarding sheep.

    Oh, so there's where the guard dog comes in. And look, shepherds are capable of both herding and guarding. Imagine how much more fun my dog would have had herding those goats if they'd have ventured into the lake (she loves chasing ducks, beavers, and muskrats in the water, too).

    Here's another source, STARTING GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS HERDING OTHER LIVESTOCK:
    Debbie Burnette, who has Cardigan Welsh Corgis, highly recommends goats for starting dogs. When I questioned this because their groups break apart very easily. She responded that yes they break apart, but they don’t take off. So, the dog can easily put them back together again. A good alternative when there are no appropriate sheep available. Also, although sheep are known for grouping much better than goats, so many sheep we see today, actually group worse than goats. In some areas, it seems like there are not heavy wooly sheep available to work. No one wants to sheer. Therefore, only light haired sheep which are bad for starting GSDs on are available. However, haired goats can be heavy and therefore are a much better choice for GSDs than haired sheep. If all you have is light sheep in your area, seek out goats.

    Cow dog folks often start dogs on goats and then progress to cattle. They find this produces a much better on dog then starting on sheep. Goats behave much more like cattle than they do sheep and aren’t as intimidating for a starting dog as are cattle. After they have a handle on the dog and it has gained in confidence, then they move on to cows.
    Hmmm...



    About a month ago my oldest dog Ginger and I went to a four hour training and herding instinct class that was put on by the local sheep herding group. Can I just tell you right now? Sheep herding is HARD. Even when the sheep are goats. I literally didn't understand anything in the 2 hours of inside class time, other than our instructor loved border collies, regular collies, even Corgis, but not German shepherds. Which was kind of dumb because half of their class consisted of German shepherds and their people. This woman literally told us the many different ways German shepherds were unsuitable herding dogs. Also? I don't think she spoke english. I've never been more confused about a lesson in my entire life. I had to keep asking people who had done this before "what the heck does that mean?" I'm sure that didn't get old. It really made no sense to me.

    We practiced with a titled border collie and I was totally "Yay"ed by the instructor. But I was just walking back and forth, because that much I understood of the "12 and 6". It seems, though, that regardless of what the instructor lady said earlier, German shepherds are pretty good herders as evidenced by my dog's appearance on their mass email about the class. Ginger was one of three dogs on the cover. Isn't she pretty? (and having SO much fun!!!)
    One more:


    So, Effie, what didn't I get and why should I forget it?

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    she was dualized in the setting, Maritsa, so her Ni inertia was less in effect than usual. She was more 'alive' and proactive. She was openmindedly objective in the conversation, pointing out her alleged knowledge of some cases in which non-pasteurization didn't kill people. And she heard the Fi call of your cousin trying to protect you from drinking milk which hasn't been pasteurized (pasteurizing's goal is stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization), and she started analyzing your desire for the potentially dangerous thing. And, thinking it might be health and a desire for change from something you found negative about milk from cows, she decided to GIVE YOU THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of a potentially less-risky alternative.


    * disclaimer:
    I don't know enough about the science of goat milk (nor the risks of any of the pasteurize/unpasteurized stuff) to give advice. Don't kill yourselves.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

  34. #34
    EffyCold The Ineffable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    So, Effie, what didn't I get and why should I forget it?
    Man, take it easy, we were talking about the metaphors. I acknowledged for two times already that it is possible to exist cases when goats can be driven by dogs. Ok I get it, alright? There are dogs of shepherd breeds and dogs of guarding breeds that can't do either, that's not the point, when we make metaphors we're assuming the general case. You can't compare me - or whoever you think I conspire with - to a shepherd dog simply because that's not applicable, but you can compare us to guard dogs, that was the point you missed.
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

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  35. #35
    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Man, take it easy, we were talking about the metaphors.
    I'm feeling quite easy with this bit of sport, old sport. And I was talking about real dogs really herding real goats. To wit:

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    This is why you collude with a dog to mind the goats, and to track them down if they stray.
    Real dogs, real goats. No metaphor, though I could have said "train" or "work with a dog" rather than the more sinister "collude" (though the goats might see this herding as an infringement on their freedom).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    1. There's no such thing as dog for goats AFAIK. You can't control goats with the help of dogs, they don't go the other direction but randomly. They also get into dense vegetation or climb abrupt terrain where dogs can't surround them. I took care of goats at my grandma when I was little and I can tell that your metaphor is ignorant.
    2. A guard dog does the opposite job than a shpeherd dog. Another misplaced figure of speech.
    Real opinions on real dogs and real goats in real terrain with real vegetation. Your real experience with your real grandma's goats. Real rebuttal to a point I never made about guard dogs. Said real opinions have since been shown to be substantially false. No metaphor, unless this is your way of claiming you fabricated your experience with your granny's goats, supposing that she and/or they exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    My shepherd/lab mutt etc. etc.
    Real description of my dog tending to two real goats. No metaphor.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Why show you where you said guard dog? You didn't said that, I said. You didn't get it anyway, so forget about it.
    Real admission to a real non sequitur, followed by a real bluff. No metaphor.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    I don't want to. I think any intelligent person can understand what I meant and why your comparison of my means to a shepherd dog instead of a guard dog is inept.
    Real ad hom, real ad hoc ("No true Scotsman"), and real attempt at obfuscation. No metaphor.

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    citations on German shepherds, breeder/trainer tips on GSD as goat herders, testimonials and videos of same
    Real info on real German shepherds (and other dogs) herding goats. No metaphor.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    I acknowledged for two times already that it is possible to exist cases when goats can be driven by dogs.
    Show me. I see no such thing in this thread, unless forest dolphins are dogs and digging up oranges is herding goats.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Ok I get it, alright? There are dogs of shepherd breeds and dogs of guarding breeds that can't do either, that's not the point, when we make metaphors we're assuming the general case.
    I made no metaphors and wondered why the hell you were bringing them up out of nowhere, just as you dragged guard dogs into the picture. And whether a dog guards or shepherds is more a matter of training than birth, though breeding can obviously be undertaken to produce an animal best suited to a given job or range of jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    You can't compare me - or whoever you think I conspire with - to a shepherd dog simply because that's not applicable, but you can compare us to guard dogs, that was the point you missed.
    I don't think you're in cahoots with anyone, nor did I ever compare you or your non-existent shadow army with any sort of dog. It's amazing that you'd earnestly think this way, and if this is all a ruse it's even more astounding that you'd think it would be plausible. And don't try playing the "Oh, I misunderstood what you meant by collude" tack either since you haughtily put up your personal anecdotes as a fallacious antithesis to my assertion that dogs could shepherd goats. Since you've been proven factually wrong and are now suspect of compounding that with the moral contagion of pridefully refusing to own up the former, it can metaphorically be said that you've screwed the pooch.

  36. #36
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    she was dualized in the setting, Maritsa, so her Ni inertia was less in effect than usual. She was more 'alive' and proactive. She was openmindedly objective in the conversation, pointing out her alleged knowledge of some cases in which non-pasteurization didn't kill people. And she heard the Fi call of your cousin trying to protect you from drinking milk which hasn't been pasteurized (pasteurizing's goal is stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization), and she started analyzing your desire for the potentially dangerous thing. And, thinking it might be health and a desire for change from something you found negative about milk from cows, she decided to GIVE YOU THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of a potentially less-risky alternative.


    * disclaimer:
    I don't know enough about the science of goat milk (nor the risks of any of the pasteurize/unpasteurized stuff) to give advice. Don't kill yourselves.
    + a million. Thanks Sounds like my mom!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post

    Really? What do you know about it? Is it tested and safe?
    The animals are tested regularly for the diseases that get passed into milk. I don't know if they test every batch of milk or not.

    The thing about food is you can get food poisoning from so many sources. We got it from broccoli once. It has been in spinach, tomatoes, and i can't think of what all else. I'm not going to stop eating broccoli, spinach, tomatoes, and every other food that can potentially harbor bacteria. (And these weren't issues where it could be washed off.) You can't eliminate all potential for illness from food, and I feel like the milk we get isn't particularly less safe than anything else. The cows are pasture raised, and the worst illnesses come from cows fed grain in a factory farm setting. Grain is not a cow's natural food and it makes them get sick with the form of e. coli that has caused so much trouble in recent years. And in most farms, animals get each other sick due to how many of them are crammed into a small space. I think what we get is reasonably safe compared to what else is available.

    I've met the farmer and I've seen the farm, and it seems very clean and he appears to be really careful with cleanliness.

    Milk pasteurization is absolutely necessary for most milk because of how the animals are raised, how filthy the farms are, and how the milk is processed.
    She did say they test all the time for bacteria and pathogens. I think it should be safe to try sometimes.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 06-16-2011 at 05:56 AM.

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