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Thread: Democracy in America?

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    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    Default Democracy in America?

    I came across some quotes on democracy and specifically democracy in America:

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
    -Alexis de Tocqueville (Democracy in America)

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years."
    -Alexis de Tocqueville

    ‎"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -Benjamin Franklin

    In light of these quotes do you think a democracy (republic) is the ideal political system for America?

    And... how do you combat the corruption and bribery that takes place in our political system?

    Please don't turn this into a republican vs democrat thread. It has nothing to do with parties. Both parties are equally corrupt no doubt.
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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert regarding the US-American way of democracy, but I always thought it sucked pretty much. It's basically the same as it is in Germany, but at least we have some more parties to choose from. I mean, it's pretty much the same no matter what party you vote for, but it's more colourful in the statistics... and yeah, it's also possible that a no-name party rises to power, as it happened to the Left party (their leaders are populist dumbasses, though). I don't think this could happen in the US that easily.

    I think democracy itself is a must for a good society. But it can be applied in various different ways. Unfortunately, democracy is often used in such a way that it only appears to reflect the opinion of the people, but instead it just continues the status quo ad infinitum. Mostly because economical interest come before the will of the people, or they just get manipulated.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Crispy's Avatar
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    I think this has already been posted somewhere around here.
    Skip to 4:26 if you wanna hear the democracy part.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    And... how do you combat the corruption and bribery that takes place in our political system?
    The easiest way to combat corruption and bribery is to make the government less powerful. If your bribe isn't going to buy you very much, then why bribe? If the government doesn't have the ability to give you massive advantages over your competitors, then you have no reason to try and acquire them.

    So then, essentially, the only thing left to do is *gasp* actually try and compete!


    Please don't turn this into a republican vs democrat thread. It has nothing to do with parties. Both parties are equally corrupt no doubt.
    Eh... I'd say this would fall under the domain of Hanlon's Razor.
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    Idealistic systems do not work. Democracy, and especially American democracy, has been, from the very beginning, idealistic. The Enlightenment was a time of idealism, of course, so it isn't much of a surprise that ideas coming out of the Enlightenment were also idealistic. But democracy was more or less doomed to fail from its roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    But democracy was more or less doomed to fail from its roots.
    What alternative should be used then?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    But democracy was more or less doomed to fail from its roots.
    What alternative should be used then?
    Republicanism. As we have now. It should be pointed out that we are some thirty years past de Tocqueville's deadline for civilizations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    What alternative should be used then?
    That assumes that there is a government system (or even the lack of a government system) which will not, with sufficient time, inevitably decline into something reminiscent of despotism or fascism.

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    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    That assumes that there is a government system (or even the lack of a government system) which will not, with sufficient time, inevitably decline into something reminiscent of despotism or fascism.
    History indicates that it will. Civilizations are hardly permanent, let alone flimsier contrivances like nations and states.

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    I'm a Ti-Te! Skeptic's Avatar
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    History is short, counting on it to predict the future is bogus. So is democracy; it's a stupid system, even if applied properly. Government doesn't have to steadily degrade into fascism, that's the mental limitation self imposed on a cynic's mind. The past has nothing on the applied and widespread use of technology. Now is a time for great, good change to our species; if we can open our minds beyond these poorly fashioned models of the past.

    As for America, we should probably unseat all politicians, liquidate all national and corporate assets (+the stupid institutions like public schools, the military, etc.) and replace them with disinterested machines and scientists, and begin automating the country in a way in equilibrium with the environment to provide the population with their necessities and access to desires (recyclable) items within reason, and in doing so create a wider range of possibilities and freedoms. Educate the new generation in philosophy and in different schools of thought; allow them to pursue an educative path unique to their interests.

    It's actually quite easy to do, provided that the people come to forget their degrees in patriotism and corporate slavery and wrap their minds around the idea that there is such an abundance of re-usable resources/energy/everything that they can manage an entirely new model of society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    What alternative should be used then?
    Hypothetically, I'd choose a technocracy or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    That assumes that there is a government system (or even the lack of a government system) which will not, with sufficient time, inevitably decline into something reminiscent of despotism or fascism.
    And what could be such a system which is stable enough, in your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Hypothetically, I'd choose a technocracy or something.
    I'm actually writing a book (or brochure - depending on the length) in which I combine ideas of socialism with some of technocracy. Wait for it.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    This guy has an interesting view.




    I don't necessariy agree with him, but it's a viewpoint that should be considered.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

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    I was really tired when I first read the title of this thread. You can imagine my dismay when I quickly realized that it was not, in fact, "Necromancy in America".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    And what could be such a system which is stable enough, in your opinion?
    k0rpsey already answered that question. To my knowledge, there currently is no such system. Stability is a concept which is oft-discussed, but rarely ever seen.

    Stable enough, however, is an entirely different matter. Given the more-or-less inevitability that a government cannot remain stable for an infinite period of time, the question becomes which government will remain stable the longest? And that question, I cannot answer, given my limited knowledge of the topic (nor am I sure if it could ever be answered objectively, due to the circumstances surrounding each individual government and the possibility of any number of governments in the future, even those which have currently never been dreamed of).

    Meh, that's my answer.

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