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Thread: Akira Kurosawa

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    Default Akira Kurosawa

    Akira Kurosawa (黒澤 明 or 黒沢 明, Kurosawa Akira?, March 23, 1910 – September 6, 1998) was a Japanese film director, producer, screenwriter and editor. Regarded as one of the most important and influential filmmakers in the history of cinema, Kurosawa directed 30 films in a career spanning 57 years.



    Trivia

    His films are frequently copied and remade by American and European filmmakers.

    In December 1971, after a period of suffering from mental fatigue and frustrated with a run of unsatisfying and sub par directing work, Kurosawa attempted suicide by slashing his wrist thirty times with a razor. Fortunately, the wounds were not fatal and he made a full recovery.

    Because he could not get film financing for a period of time in his career, he directed and even appeared in Japanese television commercials.

    Although the Japanese press tried to paint him as a tyrant, almost all of his casts and crews agreed he was a much more cool and detached presence on sets. Many also described him as "intense".

    He was voted the 6th greatest director of all time by Entertainment Weekly, making him the only Asian on a list of 50 directors and the highest ranking non-American.

    Kurosawa worshipped legendary American director John Ford, his primary influence as a filmmaker. When the two met, Ford was uncommonly pleasant to the younger Japanese filmmaker and afterwards Kurosawa dressed in a similar fashion to Ford when on film sets.

    Unbeknownst to many people, Kurosawa had always wanted to make a Godzilla film of his own, but the executives at Toho Co., Ltd. (the Japanese studio that produces all the Godzilla films) wouldn't let him because they feared it would cost too much.

    According to his family, he rarely thought about anything other than films. Even when at home, he would sit around silently, apparently composing shots in his head.

    His two favorite actors to work with were apparently Takashi Shimura and, more famously, Toshirô Mifune. Kurosawa made 16 films with Mifune (almost always in a leading role) and 21 films with Shimura (in either a leading or supporting role).

    He worked with most of his cast and crew members repeatedly, similarly to the way his idol John Ford used the same people again and again. When Kurosawa was at his working peak, it was widely thought that if he didn't work with an actor or crew member again, the implication was that he did not like them.

    Several of his films have been remade in America as westerns. Seven Samurai (1954) ("The Seven Samurai") was remade as The Magnificent Seven (1960), and Yojimbo (1961) ("The Bodyguard") was remade as A Fistful of Dollars (1964). In addition, The Hidden Fortress (1958) ("The Hidden Fortress") was a major inspiration for the "Star Wars" saga, which takes many inspirations from westerns and is often referred to as a space western. Common story elements include Gen. Makabe, who became Obi-Wan Kenobi; Princess Yuki, who became Princess Leia and whose trick of disguising herself as a handmaiden would later be used by Queen Amidala; and the farmers from whose viewpoint the film is told, Matashichi and Tahei, whose constant bickering inspired C-3PO and R2-D2.

    He was infamous for his perfectionism. Among the related tales are his insisting a stream be made to run in the opposite direction in order to get a better visual effect, and having the roof of a house removed, later to be replaced, because he felt the roof's presence to be unattractive in a short sequence filmed from a train. He also required that all the actors in his period films had to wear their costumes for several weeks, daily, before filming so that they would look lived in.

    Although his "samurai" films are considered the archetypal samurai films over the rest of the world, they were actually considered atypical in Japan. Most Japanese samurai films had been set in the 18th & 19th centuries, when a peaceful Japan was at the peak of its nationalism, with the largest number of bushido code-adhering samurai. Kurosawa's films typically feature individualistic "ronin" (masterless samurai) rather than true "samurai" and a majority are set in the far more chaotic feudal periods (16th-17th centuries) when the Japanese were engaged in civil war.

    He was a fan of the work of Sergei M. Eisenstein, who, like Kurosawa, edited his own films.

    He believed his years as an assistant director were invaluable. In Japanese cinema at that time, assistant directors dabbled in virtually every aspect of film production and Kurosawa, among other things, learned all about editing, set-decorating, costume-design and working with actors. Almost all of the assistant directors in Kurosawa's day were aspiring to become full-fledged directors. He felt that it was a shame that, in more modern Japanese cinema and in America, the assistant director doesn't accrue as much experience and usually permanently stays as an assistant director throughout his career and that there would be a great number of excellent directors had they had his training.

    Many of the characters in his period films were loosely based on historical figures.

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    Personal Quotes

    For me, film-making combines everything. That's the reason I've made cinema my life's work. In films painting and literature, theatre and music come together. But a film is still a film.

    Human beings share the same common problems. A film can only be understood if it depicts these properly.

    The characters in my films try to live honestly and make the most of the lives they've been given. I believe you must live honestly and develop your abilities to the full. People who do this are the real heros.

    With a good script, a good director can produce a masterpiece. With the same script, a mediocre director can produce a passable film. But with a bad script even a good director can't possibly make a good film. For truly cinematic expression, the camera and the microphone must be able to cross both fire and water. The script must be something that has the power to do this.

    In all my films, there's three or maybe four minutes of real cinema.

    So long as my pictures are hits I can afford to be unreasonable. Of course, if they start losing money then I've made some enemies.

    It is quite enough if a human being has but one field where he is strong. If a human being were strong in every field it wouldn't be nice for other people, would it?

    Good Westerns are liked by everyone. Since humans are weak, they want to see good people and great heroes. Westerns have been done over and over again, and in the process a kind of grammar has evolved. I have learned much from this grammar of the Western.

    I like unformed characters. This may be because, no matter how old I get, I am still unformed myself.

    When I start on a film I always have a number of ideas about my project. Then one of them begins to germinate, to sprout, and it is this which I take and work with. My films come from my need to say a particular thing at a particular time. The beginning of any film for me is this need to express something. It is to make it nurture and grow that I write my script- it is directing it that makes my tree blossom and bear fruit.

    Human beings are unable to be honest with themselves about themselves. They cannot talk about themselves without embellishing.

    To have not seen the films of Ray is to have lived in the world without ever having seen the moon and the sun.

    Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.

    [On Mikio Naruse] Naruse's Method consists of staging one very brief shot after another; but when we look at them placed end-to-end in the finished film, they give the impression of one long single take. The fluidity is so perfect that the cuts are invisible . . . A flow of shots that looks calm and ordinary at first glance reveals itself to be like a deep river with a quiet surface disguising a fast-raging current.

    I believe that what pertains only to myself is not interesting enough to record and leave behind me. More important is my conviction that if I were to write anything at all, it would turn out to be nothing but talk about movies. In other words, take 'myself', subtract 'movies', and the result is zero.

    {on witnessing the aftermath of the 1923 Tokyo earthquake, and the ensuing riots] Amid the expanse of nauseating redness lay every kind of corpse imaginable. I saw corpses charred black, half-burned corpses, corpses in gutters, corpses floating in rivers, corpses piled up on bridges, corpses blocking off a whole street at an intersection, and every manner of death possible to human beings displayed by corpses. When I involuntarily looked away, my brother scolded me, "Akira, look carefully now". Looking back on that excursion now, I realize that it must have been horrifying for my brother, too. It had been an expedition to conquer fear.

    [on Toshirô Mifune] Mifune had a kind of talent I had never encountered before in the Japanese film world. It was, above all, the speed with which he expressed himself that was astounding. The ordinary Japanese actor might need ten feet of film to get across an impression; Mifune needed only three. The speed of his movements was such that he said in a single action what took ordinary actors three separate movements to express. He put forth everything directly and boldly, and his sense of timing was the keenest I had ever seen in a Japanese actor. And yet with all his quickness, he also had surprisingly fine sensibilities.

    [on his discovery of Toshirô Mifune during casting of Drunken Angel (1948)] I am a person who is rarely impressed by actors, but in the case of Mifune, I was completely overwhelmed.

    [on Kenji Mizoguchi] Of all Japanese directors I have the greatest respect for him. . . . With the death of Mizoguchi, Japanese film lost its truest creator.

    I begin rehearsals in the actors' dressing room. First I have them repeat their lines, and gradually proceed to the movements. But this is done with costumes and makeup on from the beginning; then we repeat everything on the set. The thoroughness of the rehearsals makes the actual shooting every time very short. We don't rehearse just the actors, but every part of every scene - the camera movements, the lightning, everything.

    The role of a director encompasses the coaching of the actors, the cinematography, the sound recording, the art direction, the music, the editing and the dubbing and sound-mixing. Altough these can be thought of as separate occupations, I do not regard them as independent. I see them all melting together under the heading of direction

    Unless you know every aspect and phase of the film-production process, you can't be a movie director. A movie director is like a front-line commanding officer. He needs a thorough knowledge of every branch of the service, and if he doesn't command each division, he cannot command the whole.

    A film director has to convince a great number of people to follow him and work with him. I often say, although I am certainly not a militarist, that if you compare the production unit to an army, the script is the battle flag and the director is the commander of the front line. From the moment production begins to the moment it ends, there is no telling what will happen. The director must be able to respond to any situation, and he must have the leadership ability to make the whole unit go along with his responses.

    Movie directors, or should I say people who create things, are very greedy and they can never be satisfied... That's why they can keep on working. I've been able to work for so long because I think next time, I'll make something good.

    A film is never really good unless the camera is an eye in the head of a poet.

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    SEI perhaps.
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    I didn't read the thread yet, but I'm gonna say that I'm fairly sure he's Ni-Base. Considering his films abound in Beta values, I'd say IEI.
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    I love this guy, even if he's dead. Some of his movies are so...breathtaking...

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    I remember his movie where he tried to put some of his dreams into film. Perhaps this movie was called Dreams. Actually it was. Anyway I found this interesting and I really wish I could put some of my dreams into film. Oh well.

    Anyway I don't know what type he is. But I wouldn't be surprised if he were some IP type.

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    I am actually considering of Delta introvert, most likely an Ne/Si subtype. His works seem Fi-driven imo, and appears to be focused strongly on personal ethics and moral values. His movies also lack a form of dramatism and emotional affect which I identify closely with Alpha and Beta.

    When I had watched Rashomon, Kurosawa had focused a lot on the personal experiences and perspective of each character, which were influenced by their own sentiments towards the same situation which they had gone through. In his other movies as well, he had focused heavily on every individual rather than the group as a whole.

    Considering that he tends to choose his actors or crew members based mainly on his personal likes and dislikes for that individual and is prone to re-use that person for every other movie of his, this belief has reminded me of Delta aristocracy to a certain extent.

    In addition, Toshirô Mifune, his favorite actor who appeared in nearly all his movies, is probably an Te-ISTp (or some other Delta ST type) imo. He was the bandit in Rashomon, btw. I'm not sure about the type of his other favorite actor, Takashi Shimura, though.

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    When I looked at the pic of him initially I thought ISTp but didn't want to say anything. Not a typing by far, just a sensation. Would need better photos anyway to get a good VI so not even sure why I'm posting. And I don't want to just read about some guy, I don't speak japanese, ask Galen.


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    Kurosawa himself hasn't much piqued my interest but his movies kick ass. I loved his treatment of Shakespeare in Throne of Blood and Ran. Kagemusha was also great and surprised with its unexpected turn into phantasmagoria. Sanjuro and Seven Samurai are just benchmarks for excellence. Rashomon is the only one so far I've rejected, and that's because of its repetitive and increasingly histrionic nature. But for the rest, bomb (as in kaboomshisly awesome) flicks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Kurosawa himself hasn't much piqued my interest but his movies kick ass. I loved his treatment of Shakespeare in Throne of Blood and Ran. Kagemusha was also great and surprised with its unexpected turn into phantasmagoria. Sanjuro and Seven Samurai are just benchmarks for excellence. Rashomon is the only one so far I've rejected, and that's because of its repetitive and increasingly histrionic nature. But for the rest, bomb (as in kaboomshisly awesome) flicks.
    Don't forget High and Low, if you haven't seen it. =) I think that one is underrated (maybe because of the lack of historical theme or grandeur his films usually have).

    I don't know much about him personally either though..

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    Ikiru!

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    When I looked at the pic of him initially I thought ISTp but didn't want to say anything. Not a typing by far, just a sensation. Would need better photos anyway to get a good VI so not even sure why I'm posting. And I don't want to just read about some guy, I don't speak japanese, ask Galen.

    Most of the photos on the Net are of him wearing sunglasses. Here are the few better photos I could locate:


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    Dialogue between Takeshi Kitano and Akira Kurosawa. You need to turn on the annotations to read the English subtitle.


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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    I thought he was LII, his perfectionism and I think the idea of his movies being unemotional is quite wrong, his movies are driven by emotion although often subdued and hidden.

    Take a character like Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai who I type as SLE. He was a character specifically added to make the movie not boring. He is brash and ambitious and a wild card through out the film, but he is the emotional heart of the film as well.

    Also I type Toshiro Mifune as SLE. The man is a extrovert, not introvert as some suggested in his thread.

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    From VI and interview Kurosawa appears EIE rather.
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Take a character like Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai who I type as SLE. He was a character specifically added to make the movie not boring. He is brash and ambitious and a wild card through out the film, but he is the emotional heart of the film as well.

    Also I type Toshiro Mifune as SLE. The man is a extrovert, not introvert as some suggested in his thread.
    Mifune may be SLE, but Kikuchiyo and the thief in Rashomon are IEI, IMO. They do everything randomly, they don't have a clear goal, have no winning strategy, just a big vague long-term aim for something great... Apart for wanting to identify with some noble purposes and few other little Beta Irrational details, I don't see anything SLE about him. It is hard to point to SLE characters in the movies who are not bosses (basically "accompished"), however I think you can still compare that one with more typical SLEs, like Nobunaga in Kagemusha, Katsumoto in The Last Samurai or Howard Saint in The Punisher. When such character says or does something, you know that is intended for a certain purpose, it's pretty clear. If I recall unaccomplished SLE characters I'll come back to this.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    From VI and interview Kurosawa appears EIE rather.
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Take a character like Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai who I type as SLE. He was a character specifically added to make the movie not boring. He is brash and ambitious and a wild card through out the film, but he is the emotional heart of the film as well.

    Also I type Toshiro Mifune as SLE. The man is a extrovert, not introvert as some suggested in his thread.
    Mifune may be SLE, but Kikuchiyo and the thief in Rashomon are IEI, IMO. They do everything randomly, they don't have a clear goal, have no winning strategy, just a big vague long-term aim for something great... Apart for wanting to identify with some noble purposes and few other little Beta Irrational details, I don't see anything SLE about him. It is hard to point to SLE characters in the movies who are not bosses (basically "accompished"), however I think you can still compare that one with more typical SLEs, like Nobunaga in Kagemusha, Katsumoto in The Last Samurai or Howard Saint in The Punisher. When such character says or does something, you know that is intended for a certain purpose, it's pretty clear. If I recall unaccomplished SLE characters I'll come back to this.
    IEI do everything randomly and don't have a clear goal? I would hardly say that, IEI's are very careful and detailed in how they deal with people. They are very adept at being thoughtful and friendly with everyone around them and able to get themselves ingratiated with the right people. They may not have the same kind of tangible ambition that some people have, but they definitely want to be in with the right crowd and know the right people and this is how they keep themselves secure.

    Kikuchiyo is ambitious, he fakes his credentials and goes for glory, such as when he has to show off and grab a musket after Kyuzo grabbed one earlier trying to one up his actions. He doesn't really think about long term potential of anything, he just want to show off and prove himself.

    SLE's aren't all powerful commanding people, before they were powerful commanding people, they were brash reckless upstart punks. Kikuchiyo is also a extravert, he has to be the star of the show, the hero, the leader, he peacocks the whole entire movie. However there is a sense of personal inferiority because of his birth, a resentment but also sympathy with the farmers and peasants from where he came from and wishes to escape.

    The defining images of Kikuchiyo is him swaggering around, with his oversized sword and his oversized personality trying to bravado his way to respect, and in the end he does.

    Also one of the most poignant lines said by Kikuchiyo is as as any line in the film without any appearances, a frank personal view of the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo
    What do you think of farmers? You think they’re saints? Hah! They’re foxy beasts! They say, “We’ve got no rice, we’ve no wheat. We’ve got nothing!” But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You’ll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, cake! Look in the valleys, they’ve got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They’re nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labor! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do?
    Not every SLE's a leader, in fact, they're far more likely to be followers, fighting for someone else, living their dreams, loyal to the death, ruthless in their execution.

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    Dellamorte in Cemetery Man, Vincent in Collateral, Stapleton in The Hound of the Baskervilles (2002). Characters who although adventurous, encompass the (closest to) SLE rational approach, instead of the emotional IEI one.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Dellamorte in Cemetery Man, Vincent in Collateral, Stapleton in The Hound of the Baskervilles (2002). Characters who although adventurous, encompass the (closest to) SLE rational approach, instead of the emotional IEI one.
    SLE's don't follow a rational approach. They follow a perceptive one. As does IEI. They are emotional and expressive people, especially the Se subtype.

    Vincent and Stapleton are rationals, but rational leading types and probably Te leading types from the way they conduct their affairs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    IEI do everything randomly and don't have a clear goal? I would hardly say that, IEI's are very careful and detailed in how they deal with people. They are very adept at being thoughtful and friendly with everyone around them and able to get themselves ingratiated with the right people. They may not have the same kind of tangible ambition that some people have, but they definitely want to be in with the right crowd and know the right people and this is how they keep themselves secure.
    They are not always like that, IEIs - especially men - are often eccentric, crazy, savage, lonely, etc. (Nietzsche)
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Kikuchiyo is ambitious, he fakes his credentials and goes for glory, such as when he has to show off and grab a musket after Kyuzo grabbed one earlier trying to one up his actions. He doesn't really think about long term potential of anything, he just want to show off and prove himself.
    But I was talking about a vague ideal, not long term practical goal, as SLEs are better than IEIs at this too. Don't mix ideals with feasible goals, in SLE the latter has priority.
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    SLE's aren't all powerful commanding people, before they were powerful commanding people, they were brash reckless upstart punks. Kikuchiyo is also a extravert, he has to be the star of the show, the hero, the leader, he peacocks the whole entire movie. However there is a sense of personal inferiority because of his birth, a resentment but also sympathy with the farmers and peasants from where he came from and wishes to escape.

    ...

    Not every SLE's a leader, in fact, they're far more likely to be followers, fighting for someone else, living their dreams, loyal to the death, ruthless in their execution.
    I told you that I just haven't found examples. Indeed, the average SLE is anything but a character to make a movie about.
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    The defining images of Kikuchiyo is him swaggering around, with his oversized sword and his oversized personality trying to bravado his way to respect, and in the end he does.
    And goofy, I'd add. Purely emotionally motivated and lacking real control over his actions. Yes, that's IEI >>>>> SLE. Eg IMO if someone for instance, among the two types, thinks Bas Rutten is SLE, then he/she has to take Socionics from scratch.
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Also one of the most poignant lines said by Kikuchiyo is as as any line in the film without any appearances, a frank personal view of the truth.
    LOL! If you didn't see such allegations already from so many IEIs, I don't know what to say. Think of users on this forum, B&D, crazedrat. That is Ni, but with Ti-Valuing type of inference. That is a "piece of wisdom" with no necessarily real base behind it, that's not something for a judge to use for instance, or to precisely decide someone's fate. That may be true or may not be true, it won't oblige anyone, and in the film it was not the reason why they were there. If that doesn't tell Beta NF, the most it can point at is Beta as a whole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    SLE's don't follow a rational approach. They follow a perceptive one. As does IEI. They are emotional and expressive people, especially the Se subtype.
    All I can tell from this is that I doubt you identified an SLE in real life. I was using "rational" in the general sense, like thoughtful, tactical, logical. I don't deny they can be crazy, but I was talking about being essential in them.
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Vincent and Stapleton are rationals, but rational leading types and probably Te leading types from the way they conduct their affairs.
    Cetainly not. Stapleton designed all that complex strategy for revenge and for a big/genius deed that will be remembered. Zero usefulness. Also, Vincent was fascinated by what he was doing, he was adventurous and had an entire romantic philosophy about that (assasinating people). Still, his approach was logical, calculated, controlled, not emotionally-driven.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    LOL! If you didn't see such allegations already from so many IEIs, I don't know what to say. Think of users on this forum, B&D, crazedrat. That is Ni, but with Ti-Valuing type of inference. That is a "piece of wisdom" with no necessarily real base behind it, that's not something for a judge to use for instance, or to precisely decide someone's fate. That may be true or may not be true, it won't oblige anyone, and in the film it was not the reason why they were there. If that doesn't tell Beta NF, the most it can point at is Beta as a whole.
    Yea, but he is willing to take action, he is willing to risk himself and his life bravely if recklessly. He is physical and persistent, also take a look at what is being said, it's totally external to himself and to the people he talks about.

    It's about material things and material criticism, he doesn't talk about how the farmers or samurai feels. It's about robbing and stealing, raping and plundering, ownership and slavery.

    He doesn't even complain about it, he's not a complainer but a man of action. He cheats, lies, fakes his way to success, but he succeeds none the less. He doesn't go out with a sigh. Kikuchiyo is very smart and cunning and very capable person, throughout the story he is a fish out of water, but present as capable and intelligent despite his upbringing and lack of refinement. He is rejected initially from the group because of his poor manners and tact but his persistence and ability is what got him in. This is not a IEI.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    But I was talking about a vague ideal, not long term practical goal, as SLEs are better than IEIs at this too. Don't mix ideals with feasible goals, in SLE the latter has priority.

    I told you that I just haven't found examples. Indeed, the average SLE is anything but a character to make a movie about.
    Long term practical goals? I don't really see SLE as good at that, this is why they're so successful. They don't really care about that. They might say they do, or they might act like they do, but what they really want to do is show off and get attention. They're talented, able, pragmatic, but they don't really want to care about that. They want fame, power, glory attention, and love. This is why their hidden agenda is to be loved. They want to be #1, and there's nothing practical about that. SLE's succeed because they're often capable, take risks, and don't give a damn what other people think. Their persistence and ability to undergo hardship make them very resilient to the competitive stress of such a undertaking, but just as often the squander their success on excess, love, drugs, bad risks later on, bad friends who leech off of them, or are betrayed by people they thought were loyal.

    I think Nobunaga is SLE, and he was very capable and able person, but unifying Japan isn't exactly a practical goal. It take someone with boundless ambition to seriously enter into such a act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Long term practical goals? I don't really see SLE as good at that, this is why they're so successful. They don't really care about that. They might say they do, or they might act like they do, but what they really want to do is show off and get attention. They're talented, able, pragmatic, but they don't really want to care about that. They want fame, power, glory attention, and love. This is why their hidden agenda is to be loved. They want to be #1, and there's nothing practical about that. SLE's succeed because they're often capable, take risks, and don't give a damn what other people think. Their persistence and ability to undergo hardship make them very resilient to the competitive stress of such a undertaking, but just as often the squander their success on excess, love, drugs, bad risks later on, bad friends who leech off of them, or are betrayed by people they thought were loyal.
    You're using "practical" differently than me. And I'd say narrow and limited. Wealth, money and to some extent fame are practical. Practical doesn't necessarily mean cooking, cleaning, fixing, building, working the field, etc. LIEs are also pursuing great deeds and wealth. They (practical matters) are something you envisage, go get and obtain, literally. The SLE may dream about retreating in the Tibetan mountains but will never do it, unless he/she got material security (enough wealth, power, influence, that can sustain them on Earth). The SLE doesn't do anything without a *real*, obvious income, even if they secondarily aim at spiritual fulfillment. Heaven can wait. You forgot how Aristocratics work, the spiritual is literally spiritual, because of that for STs it will stay spiritual, our of their way . Sounds at least surprising you claim an ST does everything ramdomly driven by purely emotional and spiritual purposes... You confuse looking for emotional satisfaction with acting based on emotions, the latter was never my point.

    The hidden agenda is a distant ideal, it's something you can't provide yourself. The HA is more properly called Mobilizing in Model A and claiming it is more used than the Ego functions is merely an excuse or an erroneous interpretation of the model. As you probably know, Ti-Creatives are relatively abstaining from expressing much Fe information, they have troubles expressing feelings and are naturally mildly stiff regarding self-expression.
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think Nobunaga is SLE, and he was very capable and able person, but unifying Japan isn't exactly a practical goal. It take someone with boundless ambition to seriously enter into such a act.
    First you may consider that a practical aim, in the middle ages - esp Japan - that means security too. Otherwise, like I said above, that was a pratical, tangible accomplishment. Spiritual warriors are interested only in the big idea of the battles themselves and eventually to die like heroes if that's "their destiny", much less to actually win. Maybe you heard some saying "eh well, the act/intention is what matters". Well, I'm sure you won't hear an SLE saying that, what's important for them is the actual income, obtaining something out of that struggle, heroic or whatever. They would sacrifice distant ideals for something tangible, that they can *see* in front of them and say "this is mine" objectively, not some relative spiritual/feels good/fun mumbo-jumbo like IEIs.

    Heiachi, the funny "woodcutter" samurai, could be typed as SLE. All Kikuchiyo is dealing with are people and their emotions, motivations, honesty, identity, courage and so on. He was getting pissed any time the situation became emotionally charged and was running away in anger/sadness. He was accepted because although impredictable, he proved to have the potential to raise the morale and unity of the people. Remember the scene when (and how) he raised the flag, that was nothing "thought-out", it was pure anger and frustration, the imperative desire to pull himself and the others out of that affective shit.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    You're using "practical" differently than me. And I'd say narrow and limited. Wealth, money and to some extent fame are practical. Practical doesn't necessarily mean cooking, cleaning, fixing, building, working the field, etc. LIEs are also pursuing great deeds and wealth. They (practical matters) are something you envisage, go get and obtain, literally. The SLE may dream about retreating in the Tibetan mountains but will never do it, unless he/she got material security (enough wealth, power, influence, that can sustain them on Earth). The SLE doesn't do anything without a *real*, obvious income, even if they secondarily aim at spiritual fulfillment. Heaven can wait. You forgot how Aristocratics work, the spiritual is literally spiritual, because of that for STs it will stay spiritual, our of their way . Sounds at least surprising you claim an ST does everything ramdomly driven by purely emotional and spiritual purposes... You confuse looking for emotional satisfaction with acting based on emotions, the latter was never my point.
    Did I mention spiritual purposes at all? I never did. They can talk about spiritual purpose and follow a spiritual purpose, but their actions and tendencies tend to be more concrete, this doesn't mean they are practical, they can do something risky, they can achieve "real" outcomes which are bad for them and bad for others. This doesn't have anything to do with practical. Doing drugs, being excessive in their life, keep around bad friends so they can have someone to impress. These are all concrete things, nothing spiritual about it at all. Just because you do *real* things doesn't mean you're being practical. What I said was that they wanted fame, glory, attention, love. These are all tangible material things.

    In the whole movie, nobody really listen to a thing Kikuchiyo, he has very little social skills and is totally unrefined and without tact. What he does do is succeed by taking risks, fighting and doing practical things to get real results. He doesn't charm anyone, he acts and by his actions forces others to act. This is how a SLE gets results, by acting decisively and then getting a reaction from others. He does this when he sounds the alarm to get the villagers to come out and beg the Samurai for help. His scolding of the samurai wasn't about emotional manipulation, it was about the rejection of a moral stand taken by the samurai once they learned the farmers have been killing fleeing samurai. He talks about how they farmers have been abused at the hand of the samurai and they have become this way. This is more a way of rationalizing the farmer's actions and eliminating the moral problem of helping these farmers who had killed samurai in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Heiachi, the funny "woodcutter" samurai, could be typed as SLE. All Kikuchiyo is dealing with are people and their emotions, motivations, honesty, identity, courage and so on. He was getting pissed any time the situation became emotionally charged and was running away in anger/sadness. He was accepted because although impredictable, he proved to have the potential to raise the morale and unity of the people. Remember the scene when (and how) he raised the flag, that was nothing "thought-out", it was pure anger and frustration, the imperative desire to pull himself and the others out of that affective shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESTP Uncovered
    http://www.socionics.com/prof/estp2.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by ESTP Uncovered
    A female ESTp comes home...

    - Hey, darling, I'm home!
    - Cool!
    - Don't you want to come and give me a kiss?
    - Yeah, in a minute!
    - Is something wrong?
    - No, nothing's wrong!
    - Are you not happy to see me?
    - Of course I am happy to see you!
    - So why don't you want to come then?
    - I do, let me just finish something first!
    - Is it more important to you than me?
    - Oh, please, don't start!
    - You don't love me, I know!
    - Of course I do, don't be silly!
    - If you loved me, you wouldn't do this to me!
    - Do what?
    - This!
    - Just because I can't drop everything right this second, I don't love you?
    - Not this!
    - Then what?
    - You don't want me anymore!
    - What? Where does this come from?
    - You should know better!
    - Give me at least a hint!
    - See? Now you are mad at me too! You hate me!
    - I am not mad at you and I don't hate you! Now stop it!
    - And you don't love me either!
    - I love you, I love you, I love you! How many more times I have to say this?
    - You don't mean it!
    - I love you and I mean it! Now stop this nonsense, I have had enough of it!
    - Maybe you have had enough of me too?
    - Maybe...

    Female ESTp breaks down in tears...
    ESTp's are full of drama. They get pissy, angry, jealous, whiny. They are motivators, and they compel others to action. If you ever watch the huddle of a pro-sports team, you will see SLE's in there doing their motivational speech.



    Here's Ray Lewis(A pro-american football player) in the huddle motivating the troops. I think he is SLE as well. He even swaggers like Kikuchiyo.

    One of the things that the ego function does that is different then the id function is that it's a more social function and it is there to communicate with others. One of the ways Se communicates with others is to compel them to action. It's not the kind of motivation that brings, but it is still a act of getting others to do stuff with you, except without really requiring their emotional engagement, although this is desirable for SLE's. They're asking for others to "Do this, do it 110%, don't stop until we win." There's nothing really all that surprising with a SLE doing things because they're pissed off and frustrated. Rage is one of the low level emotions that we share with other animals, as is lust. These are people that although they may appear unemphatic and unemotional at times, are driven by emotions. That is why is the mobilizing functions.

    Anyways, as far as the typing, I don't think I see the typing of IEI at all, it simply doesn't work. Male IEI are often self-effacing nice guys, and althrough some IEI can be caustic and mean or say some outlandish things. In face to face interaction, they're these soft, nice guys who are pretty shy but have occasional outbursts.

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    lol, that estp uncovered cracks me up. i'm not sure how true it is.. i've been on both sides of the fence. i don't see it as drama though so much as needing visible assurances and feedback, and questioning/ignoring the Fi relational context. in estp's case, this could lead to using methods that cause them to rage or get dramatic, but not necessarily.

    also, ray lewis is awesome, but i'm not sure he's representative of all SLEs. he's intense on a level few are - plus, he's in his game when he's acting like that. i really doubt he's that way with his kids, for example.

    on a sidenote, i like this quote from marlon brando. if you read biographies, you'll see more thoughts like this. he's usually typed SLE, but he was not at all hyper-aggressive or dramatic.

    "Kowalski was always right, and never afraid. He never wondered, he never doubted. His ego was very secure. And he had the kind of brutal agressiveness that I hate. I'm afraid of it. I detest the character."
    (his feelings about one of his most famous characters, Stanley Kowalski from 'A Streetcar Named Desire')”

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    Ahh Dreams. There was a nuclear facility disaster dream! And I think an earthquake caused it! It was strange that he saw it coming, it must have been a fear ingrained into their society...especially given the atomic bombs dropped on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Ahh Dreams. There was a nuclear facility disaster dream! And I think an earthquake caused it! It was strange that he saw it coming, it must have been a fear ingrained into their society...especially given the atomic bombs dropped on them.
    Ah yeah..

    I love that sequence right after it too. I kind of want to live in a town like that.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    lol, that estp uncovered cracks me up. i'm not sure how true it is.. i've been on both sides of the fence. i don't see it as drama though so much as needing visible assurances and feedback, and questioning/ignoring the Fi relational context. in estp's case, this could lead to using methods that cause them to rage or get dramatic, but not necessarily.
    SLE don't really show a wide range of emotions, anger is one of the more regular ones. I wouldn't say anger at anything in particular since it's just a sort of latent aggression that I think is there but it doesn't necessarily mean they're angry at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    also, ray lewis is awesome, but i'm not sure he's representative of all SLEs. he's intense on a level few are - plus, he's in his game when he's acting like that. i really doubt he's that way with his kids, for example.
    I agree, but it's a way they can act and will act. The movie in question is also a section of scenes about a character, defining moments rather then day to day moments.

    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    on a sidenote, i like this quote from marlon brando. if you read biographies, you'll see more thoughts like this. he's usually typed SLE, but he was not at all hyper-aggressive or dramatic.

    "Kowalski was always right, and never afraid. He never wondered, he never doubted. His ego was very secure. And he had the kind of brutal agressiveness that I hate. I'm afraid of it. I detest the character."
    (his feelings about one of his most famous characters, Stanley Kowalski from 'A Streetcar Named Desire')”
    I don't think anyone see themselves in the same way that other see them. You may not like yourself when you're at your worst, and Kowalski was a pretty bad acting version of a Se-ego type. If you ever look up summaries Marlon Brando's biographies and his relationships, you will see that these were temperamental and mercurial affairs full of all the aggressions but also full of tender moments. The jealous fits, the possessiveness. Marlon Brando may not have thought of himself as the kind of brute that he was some of the time, but this doesn't mean he didn't act like a brute some of the time. A person doesn't have to like themselves all the time.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/People/Br...020335156.html
    Last edited by mu4; 06-15-2011 at 04:54 PM.

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    Bump.

    After some consideration, I'm settled with Kurosawa as Ne-INFj. His movies are very focused in human existence and concentrated a lot on character study. In addition, they dealt with "the concept of the makeup of human character, self sacrifice, and the reasons for and consequences of our actions". There is always an unwavering belief in his movies that human kindness will overcome all advertisities in life. These values seem Fi/Te and are reminiscent of Delta values imo.

    In addition, as a form of demonstration of Caregiver/Infantile relationship, his movies tend to show the interaction between "student" and "teacher", where a mature, wise figure will impart his knowledge to his pupil in order to develop a potential of the pupil.

    He also had the practice of working constantly with people drawn from the same group of crew members, to the extent that there is a term coined for his group - "Kurosawa-gumi" (Kurosawa group). Probably Aristocratic>Democratic to a certain extent? In addition, it had been said that he did not like a certain person, he would not choose him/her to work with again, even if that person is highly competent in his/her field. Maybe it's sounds a bit stereotypical, but I realised that Gamma/Delta types tend to have a strong opinion on whether they like/dislike someone, as compared to the other quadras. If they dislike someone, they tend to write that person off (At least that was what I have noticed from Gamma/Delta types I have known irl).

    His favorite actors and the ones whom he regularly chooses as his leads all happened to be Delta:

    Takashi Shimura: ENFp



    Toshiro Mifune: Te-ISTp



    Tatsuya Nakadai: Te-ESTj



    Setsuko Hara: Ne-ENFp



    As such, I do not really agree that he is some Beta type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    In addition, as a form of demonstration of Caregiver/Infantile relationship, his movies tend to show the interaction between "student" and "teacher", where a mature, wise figure will impart his knowledge to his pupil in order to develop a potential of the pupil.
    This is Beta all the way. There's no connection between this and Ne/Si. This is a leitmotif of Beta, especially Rationals - IRL. Also, EIE is also called "The Mentor", because of the type traits. That has nothing to do with Si and I see no strong elements in Kurosawa's movies that can be qualified as such.
    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    Maybe it's sounds a bit stereotypical, but I realised that Gamma/Delta types tend to have a strong opinion on whether they like/dislike someone, as compared to the other quadras. If they dislike someone, they tend to write that person off (At least that was what I have noticed from Gamma/Delta types I have known irl).
    It doesn't sound stereotypical, because that is stereotypical for Fe valuers. Fi valuers, even when they dislike someone, they need a justification to dismiss him/her, and not in order to justify in front of others, but for themselves. There must be something bad, improper, unethical, wrong.

    And BTW, Deltas are the least exclusivist types, the diametral opposite of what you describe. They're believing in the potential of everyone and avoid favoritism as much as possible.
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    The message Kurosawa sends in the business, like Tarantino, Jobs, is "this is real value" - we're not working with every shit, we use the best handpicked stuff. Like the expensive restaurants pur les connoiseurs only and the huge fashion shop windows presenting only one perfume. He's also pretty extravagant and expresses his tastes too strongly. That's anything *but* Delta, I'm sorry...
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    And BTW, Deltas are the least exclusivist types, the diametral opposite of what you describe. They're believing in the potential of everyone and avoid favoritism as much as possible.
    This sounds more like Alpha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    The message Kurosawa sends in the business, like Tarantino, Jobs, is "this is real value" - we're not working with every shit, we use the best handpicked stuff. Like the expensive restaurants pur les connoiseurs only and the huge fashion shop windows presenting only one perfume. He's also pretty extravagant and expresses his tastes too strongly. That's anything *but* Delta, I'm sorry...
    I think this is applicable to all quadras. I don't think Deltas would settle for anything less and the introverted Delta types tend to be rather perfectionistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    In addition, as a form of demonstration of Caregiver/Infantile relationship, his movies tend to show the interaction between "student" and "teacher", where a mature, wise figure will impart his knowledge to his pupil in order to develop a potential of the pupil.
    This is Beta all the way. There's no connection between this and Ne/Si. This is a leitmotif of Beta, especially Rationals - IRL. Also, EIE is also called "The Mentor", because of the type traits. That has nothing to do with Si and I see no strong elements in Kurosawa's movies that can be qualified as such.
    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    Maybe it's sounds a bit stereotypical, but I realised that Gamma/Delta types tend to have a strong opinion on whether they like/dislike someone, as compared to the other quadras. If they dislike someone, they tend to write that person off (At least that was what I have noticed from Gamma/Delta types I have known irl).
    It doesn't sound stereotypical, because that is stereotypical for Fe valuers. Fi valuers, even when they dislike someone, they need a justification to dismiss him/her, and not in order to justify in front of others, but for themselves. There must be something bad, improper, unethical, wrong.

    And BTW, Deltas are the least exclusivist types, the diametral opposite of what you describe. They're believing in the potential of everyone and avoid favoritism as much as possible.
    In terms of the less exclusivist type, I would consider Alpha/Gamma to be less exclusive as compared to Beta/Delta. I think this has more to do with the area of Aristocracy/Democracy:

    Quote Originally Posted by www.wikisocion.org

    Aristocrats

    -Inclined to perceive and define themselves, and others, through groups they belong to; however, such groups are perceived and defined by the Aristocrats themselves, not necessarily accepting those groupings as defined by others or by social conventions.

    -Their initial attitude to another person is influenced by their attitude to the group they see the person as belonging to.

    -Tend to attribute common qualities to members of their circles of contacts, and define such circles by those same qualities.

    -Inclined to use expressions that generalize group features.
    Example: feeling energized by identification with a group, as in a team within a company, sports team, and the like; and seeing others foremost through the prism of the other teams they belong to.

    Democrats
    - Perceive and define themselves, and others, primarily through individual/personal qualities: interesting, pleasant, unpleasant, good-looking, etc, not in connection to any group they may belong to.

    -Form their relationships/attitudes toward other persons based on the latter's own individual characteristics, not with base on their relationships to groups of any kind, nor on their relationships to representatives of such groups.

    -Not inclined to perceive their acquaintances as representatives of a certain "circle of contacts" that supposedly possesses qualities inherent to people of that circle.

    -Not inclined to use expressions that generalize group features.
    Example: an individual building up his circle of personal connections, within an organization, that totally bypassses or ignores the organization's formal structure, but not with that circle being perceived as any kind of group or unit by any of the persons involved.
    Based on my personal experience, I have noticed that even though Delta types are quite inclined to form groups, they also acknowledge that their "group members" are also part of other groups elsewhere. As such, they are open to them been in and out of the group every now and now whenever the need arises.

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    i know there is much disagreement, but from what ive read and seen about him in documentaries he was a very stereotypically EJ person, so much so that he would sacrifice his health in the stereotypical way that an Ni creative would, just to complete a perfect scene in a film or make something perfect. he wasnt above making others sacrifice their health either to do this. to me he's the equivalent of a modern Shakespeare.

    it also seems that from accounts of people that knew him, mentioned in documentaries, that he had a high personal sentiment with how he interacted with people, dealt with his work as a director, and in how his films were conveyed.

    now i don't know very much about mifune, but from what little i do know his relationship with mifune is really interesting because there are accounts of conflicts between the two that sound like standard duality problems, as well as each having a profound appreciation for the talents and abilities of the other. i think mifune might have been an LSI or SLE. thinking about it now, his characters that he played in Yojimbo and High and Low were an ego combination of Se and Ti. i think the characters in those films were likely LSI over SLE.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    I think for sure Kurosawa is a intuitive and probably Fe valuing and somewhat Si valuing. I don't think he's Mifune's dual, they had clashes based on Se vs Si values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa/Mifune
    "Yes, on Yojimbo," he admits. "One day Kurosawa said, 'I won't mention names, but the actors are late.' I said. 'What are you talking about? I'm the actor.' Every day after that, when Kurosawa arrived, I would be there already, in costume and makeup from 6 a.m. I showed him."
    A quarter century later, Mifune still smarts from this insult to his dignity. "No matter how much I drank the night before," Mifune says, "I never once was late on his films. But with Kurosawa, sometimes people are waiting, and he never shows up. The people go to his house, and he says, 'I'm sorry. I don't feel well today.'"
    His sense of perfectionism is something that many IJ share. But I think LII is a better typing then EII , because when Kurosawa met Mifune, he was immediately entranced by this person, which is very common in super vision relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa
    They asked me the same dumb questions," Mifune says, "so I let it all out at them, every foul word. 'Goddamn SOBs!'" The judges were more put off, but Kurosawa was transfixed. As he said in his autobiography, " A young man was reeling around the room in a violent frenzy.... I found this young man strangely attractive."

    Also there is no problem in mentor/prodigal ideas with any quadra, as all quadras have some form of mentor/prodigal tendencies but with different expressions. Caregiver/infantile relationships can very commonly be expressed as a mentor/prodigal relationship for Alpha and Delta.

    All of Kurosawa mentor figures are somewhat father figures, in a paternal caregiver role then a harsh instructor role who put you thru hell and back in order to make you the best.

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