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Thread: Deltas, do you care about how you fit into society?

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    Default Deltas, do you care about how you fit into society?

    Aleksei doesn't think you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    i'm not entirely sure what you mean and i think aleksei's typings are silly but...i don't think so. i prefer to get by without causing unwarranted stress on myself and that includes compromising to society in some ways, but i think i care less about things like status than a lot of people. and when i meet other people who dont seem to care about the game its a nice relief.

    maybe you could clarify?

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    Um, hmm, no I don't. Like a social hierarchy? I don't like that kind of thing, if that's what you mean. Social climbers. Ick.

    But maybe you're talking about something else entirely.
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    Just knowing how you fit in...what is expected of you, how you contribute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Hmm I still don't understand what you mean. What's expected of me? By whom? I don't like the idea of having to fit someone else's expectation.

    I've even read the thread that explained this now, and I still don't understand specifically what you are talking about, but it's possible you and Alexksi or however he spells his name are talking about different things.
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    I don't think Deltas care about where they fit in a top-down hierarchy, as that's a defined Beta theme. What this means is that Deltas 1) chafe under a top-down authority, and 2) dislike or don't care for such an authority being arranged under them. In a broader sense this means that Deltas don't much care to rigidly adhere to roles ascribed to them by an external authority -- they are individualistic.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

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    I will always be a mother. I will always (I hope) be a wife. I will always be a daughter. I will always be a sister, niece, granddaughter...

    As for the rest of it, I choose my own roles in the larger society, and those roles may change as time goes by. I do what I enjoy, and if it happens to benefit someone along the way, so much the better.

    If I have to be a leader to accomplish what I want, then I'll be a leader. If I can achieve more by following or going along with others for a while, I'll do that. I played the part of a good student in high school, so I could qualify to attend college and study what I wanted to study.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Just knowing how you fit in...what is expected of you, how you contribute.
    "how you contribute" - sure. i mean its nice to know how my strengths are being applied and to have them appreciated.

    "what is expected of you" - umm. only within a certain context. for example, i like knowing precisely what is expected for a project at work or something. but in life overall? i know i have obligations, and some of them i even enjoy, but i dont revel in them *because* they're my obligations. honestly, the word "expectation" makes me feel itchy.

    "how you fit in" - this sort of implies hierarchy in my mind, the idea that some people are higher or lower than me in some way. which is something i kind of take for granted as part of life (like i'm not the poorest or the richest or whatever). i guess i'm aware of it insofar as i know i'm not rich because i see rich people, i know i'm not an asshole because i know assholes, etc. but i dont really think i see things through that framework in any significant way.

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    I feel safer when I know what I'm supposed to do and I feel better when I know I'm useful. It would be better to be assured that I am a bum than to have no idea what I'm supposed to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    "how you fit in" - this sort of implies hierarchy in my mind, the idea that some people are higher or lower than me in some way. which is something i kind of take for granted as part of life (like i'm not the poorest or the richest or whatever). i guess i'm aware of it insofar as i know i'm not rich because i see rich people, i know i'm not an asshole because i know assholes, etc. but i dont really think i see things through that framework in any significant way.
    Like a jigsaw puzzle, not like a tower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    I guess I'm not that into expectations and obligations being placed upon me, no matter how it's structured. I just don't like being told what to do.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    I will say that I do like feeling useful, but I guess I don't connect that with a social structure in my head.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I will say that I do like feeling useful, but I guess I don't connect that with a social structure in my head.
    yeah, this

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    As long I like it, it shares my views, I have no problem with teamwork. I never did fit in though, bummer.

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    First of all, I don't interact with "society", I interact with individuals. Those individuals, in turn, have been influenced in some way (learning, experiences, etc) by other individuals. Combine all this together and you get a "society", but it's still individuals that I'm interacting with.

    Life is filled with many activities, roles, etc. "fitting in" suggests, to me, that I'm being relegated to a mere handful of roles from which I'm not allowed to stray from, nor be flexible in...lest it destroy the tower or puzzle. "Fitting in" also suggests, to me, the idea of "status quo"...which leads me to the idea of "stagnation"....which leads me to feeling icky.

    However, I do like when what I do helps someone, or is appreciated by someone. But my focus isn't particularly on helping them, or being appreciated by them. It's on doing whatever it is I do. The rest is often an unintended bonus. This doesn't mean that I don't help people. But the focus isn't 'to be helpful'...it's most often to get something done that they can't do, but I can. Or, to get something that *I* need, and if the result helps them, yay!. (win-win)

    As for expectations, I can't stress enough that I don't respond well to them. I've even been known to rebel against an expectation, just on principle.

    Given all this, I do still withdraw if I can't seem to find a way to connect with someone I'm interacting with. SOMEthing, ANYthing that we might have in common or complimentary helps create the connection. But then, this desire for this kind of connection is a basic human need. Even when people go off to be away from other humans, they'll connect with animals in their area, and/or with themselves.

    If I were to say that I'm concerned about not fitting in with something, then the previous paragraph would be what I'd be referring to...the lack of commonality or complimentariness. Though sometimes it might refer to my being aware that I can't/won't meet someone's expectations, and I'm concerned that it might damage our relationship because of it. (The concern will only influence my behavior short term. If long term change is required, then it's not a friendship based on strong enough connections. Better to end it now than drag it on.)
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    nah

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    I care about how I fit into various socially constructed decentred groups that make up and contribute to a broader society. I'm not interested in fitting in within a homogeneous societal ideal with riged vertical power structures.
    IEE-Ne

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I feel safer when I know what I'm supposed to do and I feel better when I know I'm useful. It would be better to be assured that I am a bum than to have no idea what I'm supposed to do.
    This. I feel more comfortable when I know what I have to do and I know that I have the capabilities to do it. I wouldn't say this is a particularly societally-charge part of me though, and I'd much rather have the whole notion of 'society' be thrown out of the public consciousness entirely.
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    Soma is back!

    Well, I do care about fitting in. I don't like how it feels like to be different and have people you hold in good esteem think less of you. It doesn't mean I make a lot of an effort though, I can't be bothered too much. I don't feel any need to be useful to other people, and it doesn't make me feel bad (doesn't mean I'm not useful). I don't see my, or other people's, value as something based on what i/they can do. I'm on my phone so I might have missed more explanation about the OP. I like being part of something bigger than myself and have a certain "place" where I can make use and develop my talents.

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    I know how I contribute and I know how I want to contribute.

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    I like knowing my role within a specific context, but I don't usually extend that context to the whole of society. Because I can and do have more than one particular role within society, some more permanent than others. For example, like pianosinger's list, I'm a daughter, sister, friend... Those are permanent and somewhat society-as-a-whole-related, but they also would be meaningless without a very personal context.

    Within society as a whole, my "role" is rather nebulous and changeable depending on circumstance. I'd like to think of myself as contributing to the greater good, even if just in small, subtle ways. So that's a "role," I guess. You could also apply the labels of "worker/employee/contractor," "Christian," "taxpayer," "voter," etc. But I really don't tend to think in those terms. I tend to simply think about what I'm doing in my own situations, without even thinking about trying to fit it into a box.

    It makes sense to me that of all the Deltas, ESTjs would be the most likely to desire a specific "role" within society, though I'd still say they'll probably consider it from a personal perspective. They'd probably consider the opinions of people they care about as being highly relevant to their place and purpose.

    Does that help at all, DA?


    (Also, does it bother you when people shorten your name to DA? Would you prefer it fully spelled? If shortening is acceptable, but you don't like DA, would Abbey be ok?)
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    It's probably more rational/irrational-related than quadra-related.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    (Also, does it bother you when people shorten your name to DA? Would you prefer it fully spelled? If shortening is acceptable, but you don't like DA, would Abbey be ok?)
    DA is fine. So is Abbie. NEVER call me Abbey or Abby; I won't respond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    DA is fine. So is Abbie. NEVER call me Abbey or Abby; I won't respond.
    Right. Sorry.

    *is terribly embarrassed because I knew that*
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    Looks like i'm going to be echoing a lot of similar sentiments already expressed in this thread, but basically how I can be useful/helpful to society and doing so in a meaningful way is the only thing I really care about as far as fitting in.
    Last edited by Suz; 06-08-2011 at 11:25 PM.
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    *feels vindicated*
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Just knowing how you fit in...what is expected of you, how you contribute.
    By that definition, I probably don't. I don't care for any expectations beside those that I have selectively acknowledged and do my best to meet, and how I "contribute" depends on how "I" decide and choose to contribute.

    If we talk about how I treat and interact with my fellow human beings, I do care. Probably much more than those who "appear to" care. Or if not more, then on a different, usually deeper, more profound level.
    Last edited by Park; 06-08-2011 at 10:54 PM.

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    I don't care at all. I wish I did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    It makes sense to me that of all the Deltas, ESTjs would be the most likely to desire a specific "role" within society, though I'd still say they'll probably consider it from a personal perspective. They'd probably consider the opinions of people they care about as being highly relevant to their place and purpose.
    I think that is very true, as a general take on LSEs

    Socionically I'd say LSEs are that way 'a lot' because of Fe HA and EJ temperment and being a caregiver; it creates this "I want to help other people fulfill their needs" sort of thing....

    It's awkward because, some LSEs have a very difficult time balancing 'effectiveness', 'helping', 'directing society / using their EJ-energy', and however you want to explain Fe HA


    I also noted, recently in the delta lounge, how I've feel like I've been hampered by Fe-HA, and how I find trying to be too appealing to some people problematic (or conversely not at all caring).

    I think LSEs like "knowing their role" not at core because they are made to be tools or made to be the administrators of someone else's vision or plan, or made for only 'middle management', but because, psychologically, having some sort of a "role" would give them the comfort of "here, if i take care of this myself (Si focus), I'll be 'ok', or, things will be 'good'". It helps orient the innate desire to "do something", and gives them a nice (albeit, subjective and imaginary) sort of niche or "boundary" to operate within, so as long as they reach specified objectives, they can be at peace.

    I would say without hesitation that all the types do this sort of thing, it's just that different strong/valued functions and rationality and (everything that goes into type...) would influence what mechanisms they will create to 'rationalize their own existence'...

    Personally speaking, I've struggled immensely with wanting to have some sort of 'community' that had ideals or standards or that could provide me with a role that I would find acceptable / enjoyable, and being essentially consistently disjointedness with those options I've turned up. And it's very hard, I'd say, for an LSE or even SLI (perhaps all caregivers) to be truly solely innovative in regard to creatingtheir own society or take on social norms / values /. etc. As much as I've personally attempted to do such, it wasn't until I ran into others who 'shared' or 'had views' similar to my own that I could 'express' what I was feeling or wanted to be more freely. In this way I think it's easy for LSEs to be products of their environment, and to be more intent on maintaining a particular system or environment because they want the desired social gratification (and sense of security) from it.

    However, I think ultimately it would come down to a take of subjectiveness in terms of 'who's input to be important', and that's even a matter of what people they subjectively allow into their lives to that regard. Delta NFs are great at expanding LSE's perspectives, but even then, some NFs will be more appealing than others because they would be more subjectively appealing based on where their inputs and visions are coming from.

    It's a peculiar thing in that there is, in spite of the individuality and independence of delta, a sort of 'cohesiveness' about wanting that independence... but then beyond that, there is strong individuality about what to do with that independence. I'd say that is an area where deltas are particularly against 'societal norms' that would dictate or impose or limit choices about actions.


    PS
    I'm reminded of a recent survey about banning smoking in certain areas, and seeing why people were for or against it. A stereotypical delta response might be "Well, I don't like this, but, I don't think we should create a situation where people can't do what they want'.... and yet, maybe not. There are also remarks like "smoking is wrong / bad / 'ineffective', etc, and advocations for actually interfering in others decision making process. Perhaps more about that or a poll on such here later... but, on the whole it seems like deltas care just as much about influencing society as much as any other quadra, they just have their preferred methods of doing it, that appeal to their psyches; like everyone else, they will have their views, and they will have their drivers in terms of what is significant enough for them to take action.

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    What a blabbering LSE you are, UDP. You probably express your thoughts better than I do, but I never figured where you get the nerves and patience to write so much. Are you a very talkative person IRL?
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    If I'm interested enough in something. It's nice in that the forum, when I feel like fully expressing 'something', I can just write here. In person it's harder, because I'm a lot more sensitive to how people are receiving things and able to understand them. Sometimes on here, I don't try to tailor what I say to a specific person but write generally, or do the opposite, both of which seems to 'displease' at least someone.

    Most people IRL don't care to get into as much detail or level of interest as I do, save for academics or people who are 'very interested' in something (many of which are blowhards and Bill O'Rielly types, still, which is also off putting). Even then, a lot of it is still mood-based in terms of what is discussed (which isn't unusual for humans).

    I find it gaudy to go on and on about things even if I'm interested in them - but the other person doesn't care or isn't 'in the mood'. I tend to only do that if I am "nagging" / 'lecturing' someone on purpose or if I 'really need to say something'.


    So I suppose to be 'concise' - I always have a lot to say about whatever situation. But I don't always say it, depending on my understanding of relations, interest, and whether or not it would be worth the effort.

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    Marie84's Avatar
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    Not particularly; stability is important to me but I don't need to have, or especially be placed, in a defined position or role
    For me, the most important thing in my life is too feel comfortable with myself even if that means not "fitting in" to a particular social standard or expectation, because if I can't do that I won't be able to respect myself and if I lack self-respect I'll loose myself into the world, rather than being a part of it
    EII INFj
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    Woah major case study exploded IN MY FACE about this topic today.

    More later maybe. WE're on the run, fleeing from an oppressive society.

    Delta Individualism Will LIVE ON!!!!!

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    Everyone cares about "fitting in" because that's a social/human need.

    The way we fit in, is influenced by our quadra values.

    So yes, Deltas have our own way to judge each other's ability to jive with us (and we all DO care how we fit in w/ others, since we are social animals).

    And in a way, not caring about hierarchy makes us "fit in" with others who also don't care about strict rules for who you should obey, etc. (such as other Deltas, or people from other quadras who feel that way too).

    Yes, I'm all for the individual, etc, and I work for myself because I don't like strict rules and hierarchy. But look, I've AVOIDED those corporate hierarchy jobs because I CARE about fitting in. Otherwise, I'd just show up and not care that I wasn't "fitting in" or I would need to pretend to fit in -- both of which make me feel uncomfortable/stressed (long term anyway, I will pretend to go w/ the flow for short periods of time to be respectful).

    I don't mind standing out or being different from the crowd, but being socially appropriate, tactful, polite, and connecting w/ people is also important to me, so I do try to respect other people's approaches (which means "fitting in" enough to connect w/ people) -- I believe "When in Rome" and try to show respect for others this way.

    I've fit in w/ all kinds of groups, including many that I didn't really "belong in" or wasn't a "member of", but I could still respect their values, so there wasn't an issue.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    Everyone cares about "fitting in" because that's a social/human need.

    The way we fit in, is influenced by our quadra values.

    So yes, Deltas have our own way to judge each other's ability to jive with us (and we all DO care how we fit in w/ others, since we are social animals).

    And in a way, not caring about hierarchy makes us "fit in" with others who also don't care about strict rules for who you should obey, etc. (such as other Deltas, or people from other quadras who feel that way too).

    Yes, I'm all for the individual, etc, and I work for myself because I don't like strict rules and hierarchy. But look, I've AVOIDED those corporate hierarchy jobs because I CARE about fitting in. Otherwise, I'd just show up and not care that I wasn't "fitting in" or I would need to pretend to fit in -- both of which make me feel uncomfortable/stressed (long term anyway, I will pretend to go w/ the flow for short periods of time to be respectful).

    I don't mind standing out or being different from the crowd, but being socially appropriate, tactful, polite, and connecting w/ people is also important to me, so I do try to respect other people's approaches (which means "fitting in" enough to connect w/ people) -- I believe "When in Rome" and try to show respect for others this way.

    I've fit in w/ all kinds of groups, including many that I didn't really "belong in" or wasn't a "member of", but I could still respect their values, so there wasn't an issue.
    yeah ur right actually Jewels. After I posted, I was thinking about exactly what you said. I think many of us uniformly saying "i dont care about fitting in other than being helpful" etc, reflects our individualism more than a real disregard to fitting in, and ultimately you're right, we do take actions to fit in so as to preserve our values and ultimate goals.

    btw I relate to exactly what you described.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    edit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Aleksei doesn't think you do.
    In a general sense I do; it's important to be a productive member in contributing something positive to your society, be it political, financial, cultural, scientific, etc.

    What my specific, personal role is, however, is not a driving force to my goals.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    From this stems distinctions in one's attitudes towards people in close or distant circles. In the life of Evolutionary types, reputation plays a much greater role. Opinions of others in external society tend to be more important to them than opinions of friends or relatives. Involutionary types depend less on social appraisal. They are more accommodating towards people of their inner circle, whose opinions they hold in higher esteem than those of public approval or disapproval.

    Evolutionary - ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII. (Democratic Irrational / Aristocratic Rationals)
    Involutionary - ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE, SLI. (Democratic Rationals / Aristocratic Irrationals)
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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