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Thread: What is temperament?

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    Default What is temperament?

    Well hell, since we're all having such a jolly time taking about IEs, why don't we talk about temperaments?

    What is your temperament? How do you feel about/experience your temperament? What would you say its like to be a person of your temperament? Is there any great boons/major suckages to being of your temperament? Other such prodding questions about temperament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    1. EJ – Extroverted rational (linear-vigorous temperament)

    Energy exchange. Clearly noticeably expends energy. Usually gives all that he has. Works swiftly and intensively. As long as he has strength he recklessly wastes it. He uses up all of his energy and then collapses with exhaustion. There is no middle ground: either maximum usage of energy (sometimes close to maximum) or total inactivity.

    Recommended sports. Team sports, long-distance racing, skiing, skating, bicycle riding, auto-sport, etc.

    Emotions and behavior. Straightforward, clear, rough/rigorous, no maneuvering. Not likely to have inner doubts or hesitation. They are sharp and implacable, and their actions are totally predictable. They often end up being the victims of the surroundings – non-dutiful other people, unstable situations and chaotic occurrences.


    2. EP – Extroverted irrational (flexible-laid back temperament)

    Energy exchange. Highly dependant on external information. They are calm when there is no need to use energy, but they switch on with full power when they need to be active. It’s very difficult for them to keep energy expansion at a high level for a longer period of time. In order to have flexible-laid back temperament, people have to be able to do many activities at the same time. (For example J.Caesar, who was able to read, write and talk at the same time)

    Recommended sports. Body building, wrestling, weightlifting and boxing, shot-putting, hammer throwing, etc.

    Emotions and behavior. The main trait of this temperament is the rapid changes in mood and status. This is how they differ from EJ. They can’t stand routine and predictability. Emotions seem as unexpected flashes in their generally relaxed mood. In a moment rage can turn into indifference. Note that their emotions depend on the external changes, not on the inner psychological reasons. Their behavior is very hard to analyze because it doesn’t follow any linear rules. Instead their behavior resembles a broken curve, because they try to get everything done at the same time. They give an impulse to one activity, continue doing the next activity, etc. (they keep switching between various activities). This is the only way they can get things done and it enables them to achieve a lot more than any other method.


    3. IJ – Introverted rational (balanced-stable temperament)

    Energy Exchange. They always try to conserve energy and keep it for activities that are objectively necessary. They are afraid of excess activity and non-productive exhaustion of their strength. These are the most energy-saving and sensible people. They look restrained and calm and they distance themselves from the meaningless things that happen around them. They are meticulous, and they dislike doing anything differently from the usual pattern. They are very static and inert, but also very steady and they always finish what they started. They can not adapt in rapidly changing and extreme situations. They quickly lose their working capacity and they get ill very often.

    Recommended sports. Yoga and similar healing slow sports, running marathons, etc.

    Emotions and behavior. At first glance, they seem to have no emotions at all because they are just so good at controlling their emotions. Actually they are just waiting for the right moment to let the emotions out to the right people. They can hold on to emotions for a very long time, which is what makes them the most likely to have accumulated stress. This means that they can get stress because they have been gathering emotions, but haven’t been expressing them. They might have random emotional outbursts. The rage of an IJ type is very scary, because he can collect insults for months or even for years. Their behavior is very consistent and predictable. Their actions don’t depend on the changes in the environment, they have their own rigid firm moral and practical norms. When there are conflicts between their norms and the reality, they get nervous and they start bottling up bad emotions. They need activities that amuse/entertain them and give them emotional and physical relaxation.


    4. IP – Introverted irrational (perception-adapting temperament)

    Energy exchange. Energy level is very unstable. They react to discomfort very strongly, which is why they use their energy to avoid unacceptable conditions or to create comfort. On their rare moments of activity, they become similar to the representatives of the EP temperament, but on their moments of inactivity, they seem similar to the representatives of the IJ temperament. They tend to hide from the world and cope with their personal resources, which are bigger than they might seem to others. They are not able to constantly manage with energy exchange rhythm. Their working capacity is smaller than it is for the other temperaments. They only work effectively when they are perceiving the need for it or when there are important circumstances which they can’t ignore. There is no point in pushing those people, because they will seemingly agree with the aggressor, but will find ways to evade their duties. They either can’t or won’t overwork and they don’t share other people’s enthusiasm in principle.

    Recommended sports. Gracefully rhythmic sports (swimming, riding the bicycle) or sprinting (short distance), jumping, etc.

    Emotions and behavior. Highly sensitive to the emotions of others. They can’t stand unstable moods or stormy emotions, which is why they avoid conflict and they try to solve misunderstandings. They don’t try to change the situation, they adapt to it by showing extraordinary ingenuity and flexibility. In relaxing, comfortable and safe situations they bloom, become good and social people. They try to be good towards their surroundings and act in a kind and caring way. They are pleasant and easygoing people in close relations and cold and distant towards all others. It’s necessary to treat them in a caring and attentive way to preserve their vulnerable emotionality and fragile nervous system.


    How to determine a person’s temperament

    The temperament in socionics is a dynamic quantity because it describes the energy consumption process and it shows the volume and speed of the changes in energy expenditure. This is why the temperament can be determined by monitoring the movements and activities of the person. We must observe how that person walks, works and does sports.

    EJ – walks very fast in a determined way, doesn’t look on the sides. Other people must step out of his way and make him room. Works rhythmically with a certain cyclic manner, sometimes works too rapidly. In sports, gives all he can give.

    EP – walks fast, goes around obstacles, keeps changing his walking trajectory. Often stops and looks back and also keeps looking on his sides. Works in a chaotic pattern that only he understands, sometimes works eagerly, sometimes slugs. In sports, he likes to rest and gather his strength between the exercises.

    IJ – walks rhythmically, doesn’t deviate from his trajectory, indifferent to his surroundings. Works slowly, finishes his task before he starts with the next one. In sports, tries to spend as little energy as possible. Does sports slowly without any real enthusiasm or briskness.

    IP – walks in a somewhat limp and gutless way. Walks around obstacles. He’s careful and tries to notice all the obstacles. Tries to finish all the necessary tasks very quickly so he could go back to relaxing. He gets tired very quickly. Moves fluently and tries to relax very often. He enjoys slow rhythmic activities, avoids any kind of heavy load.

    If we are able to successfully determine the persons temperament, we will narrow possible types down to only 4 types. It is obvious why temperament is so important in socionics type diagnosis. It is also a very simple method: you just have to be observant and you have to have theoretical socionics knowledge.


    Smilingeyes's comments

    The IJ emotion description doesn't seem to be very good. I don't see anything in it that doesn't apply to IPs as well. To me it seems that the following is true, but I'd love to get feed-back on this...

    The IJ is better able to control his feelings, the outside events have less of an impact on him and he is able to directly effect what goes on in his head, concentrate on what he perceives to be important and ignore everything else. This self-limiting of his informational input means that when something occurs, that might be upsetting to others, it's quite possible that the IJ doesn't even register it happened. He wards the events completely from his world. But sometimes something has a direct effect to those factors that the IJ has chosen to be important and this can not be ignored. Things that affect these select few things, will get an enormous reaction unlike anything others are capable of creating.

    The IP on the other hand does not control his feelings as much as his reaction to them. When something emotionally upsetting happens, the IP does not ward it away like the IJ, he notices it, and he soaks it, like a sponge. He acts as if there was no amount of weight that he was unable to bear and he will continue through any adversity. Yet sometimes his self-control slips, either because he's been surprised or he's tired or drunk or whatever and then he starts leaking pathos. He generally actively controls the amount of stress he gets to avoid crossing this border.

    Yet the previous was based on thinking style IJs and IPs respectively and I expect needs revision for the feelers.

    The IP seems to care about everything related to the task he is interested in. He is engrossed like as if he were a part of the task himself. This is when he likes what he is doing.

    The IJ on the other hand doesn't seem to care, or allow himself to care about the "frivolous" parts of a task. He cares only about "the important parts" of the task. Yet over those he needs greater control than the IP. He is not absorbed by the task but rather he is single-minded in his pursuit of the task. While the IP "is one with the task" to the IJ the important things seem to appear as an abstraction, a simplification, rather than as the thing an sich. This capability gives the IJ greater command over his understanding of the matter.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Another good resource if you want a basic introduction to the four temperaments:

    http://www.fighunter.com/?page=temperaments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    The Four Temperaments can be loosely correlated along the same lines as the Four Humors:

    EJ = Choleric
    IJ = Phlegmatic
    EP = Sanguine
    IP = Melancholic
    It's very loose though. I think you'd get further combining classic temperament + Socionics temperament. SubT, Neotropic, HLD, myself, and possibly labcoat all basically appear to be Melancholics based on behaviour + soliloquies on the forum, but we span three Socionics temperaments between the three of us (and funnily enough three of those five are IJs).

    OTOH if you compare a peacemaking Phlegmatic LII to a critical "you're an idiot" Melancholic LII, you get something interesting and useful, rather than running around in circles trying to relate apples to grapefruit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Temperament: A Psychological Perspective

    The Four Temperaments can be loosely correlated along the same lines as the Four Humors:

    EJ = Choleric
    IJ = Phlegmatic
    EP = Sanguine
    IP = Melancholic
    I think I did a thread before and the correlation wasnt as high as I expected, at least from people responses on here. Either way I still use it for my first guess on temperament, but to me it works usually only with EJ = Choleric. IP/EP is a bit muddled and IP/IJ also.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    EJ = Choleric
    IJ = Phlegmatic
    EP = Sanguine
    IP = Melancholic
    On this site I found an that article which supports this claim with one exception for every group. From a test including 322 persons they got this results:

    Choleric - ENFj, ENTj, ESFp, ESFj
    Phlegmatic - INTj, ISFj, ISTj, ISTp
    Sanguine - ENFp, ENTp, ESTj, ESTp
    Melancholic - INFj, INFp, INTp, ISFp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Well hell, since we're all having such a jolly time taking about IEs, why don't we talk about temperaments?
    Note it's fallacious to talk about temperaments in the context of the Information Elements. Ji & al are used for categories of IEs which are not the temperaments themselves (Ji simply means Fi and Ti), only when they're used to refer to types are temperaments (Ji = Fi or Ti Base function).
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Note it's fallacious to talk about temperaments in the context of the Information Elements. Ji & al are used for categories of IEs which are not the temperaments themselves (Ji simply means Fi and Ti), only when they're used to refer to types are temperaments (Ji = Fi or Ti Base function).
    I appear to have made myself misunderstood. I meant that since everyone has been making "What is this IE like" threads that I would make one for people to explain how they felt about their temperaments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    I appear to have made myself misunderstood. I meant that since everyone has been making "What is this IE like" threads that I would make one for people to explain how they felt about their temperaments.
    You are partially right, or I was partially wrong... If I have the time, I think I will propose some rules for posting, for instance "what is Ni" means more that one thing - IA, IE, Ego, Base - all being separate cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    You are partially right, or I was partially wrong... If I have the time, I think I will propose some rules for posting, for instance "what is Ni" means more that one thing - IA, IE, Ego, Base - all being separate cases.
    You are being very silly right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    You are being very silly right now.
    Why? Do you know in the first place why I was partially wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    You are being very silly right now.
    This is incredibly silly!


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Why? Do you know in the first place why I was partially wrong?
    You are stating things that are good and well-known and obvious. Anyone who has spent any degree of time with Socionics knows that Base Ni is different from Creative Ni is different from Ni as an IA/IE, etc. Hence, you are fully wrong in assuming that I or anyone else here does not recognize and understand the distinction.
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    The concept of "temperament" has been one of the toughest ones for me to get my head around

    I feel things in common with IEEs the most - ILEs and SLEs are tied for second, and for very different reasons - I can't think of much all three of them have in common with each other, or how much any member of a temperament pool has in common with an averaged idea of the whole thing... I don't see enough commonly shared values, ideas, behaviors, patterns, etc., for that matter, to take the concept of temperaments with much weight (as of yet, at least), at least when compared to quadras or cognitive style Supervision rings...

    When I look at it on paper, the only dichotomy universally shared within a temperament, outside of the two that are explicitly stated in the temperament itself, is Static/Dynamic (and it's just as well as stated there ), and I expect even more looseness in Irrational temperaments due to around half of the people in them having a type of F as a Creative function...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    You are stating things that are good and well-known and obvious. Anyone who has spent any degree of time with Socionics knows that Base Ni is different from Creative Ni is different from Ni as an IA/IE, etc. Hence, you are fully wrong in assuming that I or anyone else here does not recognize and understand the distinction.
    Then you misunderstood my whole point:
    - 1. I was making no assumption about you, you didn't ask about Ni, Ti, Te, etc (Ni was just an example);
    - 2. when I corrected you the first time, I had Information Aspects in mind; yes, temperaments actually deal with IEs, although they're a specific case;
    - 3. the problem is questions like "what is Ni/Ne/Fi/Fe" are nonsensical, regardless of whether you can differentiate between IAs, IEs, as Ego, as Base and so on.

    When someone asks "what is Ti", you don't have to assume he/she can't make the difference, it is a consequence of his question. If he knows about the multiple meaning then he knows there's no answer, only a noob can ask such thing. Such question is a semantic one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Then you misunderstood my whole point:
    - 1. I was making no assumption about you, you didn't ask about Ni, Ti, Te, etc (Ni was just an example);
    - 2. when I corrected you the first time, I had Information Aspects in mind; yes, temperaments actually deal with IEs, although they're a specific case;
    - 3. the problem is questions like "what is Ni/Ne/Fi/Fe" are nonsensical, regardless of whether you can differentiate between IAs, IEs, as Ego, as Base and so on.

    When someone asks "what is Ti", you don't have to assume he/she can't make the difference, it is a consequence of his question. If he knows about the multiple meaning then he knows there's no answer, only a noob can ask such thing. Such question is a semantic one.
    If you feel the need to make rules to prevent people from mistaking these differences, then the underlying assumption would be that you don't think they understand them in the first place. If you assumed people understood h distinction, there would be no need for rules safeguarding it, now would there?

    And of course there's an answer. Just because a word may have multiple definitions in the dictionary does not mean that it is wrong for a person to ask what the word means. In this context, to ask, "What is Ni?" or "What is temperament?" is to ask for all of these definitions. That is the context of this thread and others of its ilk which I seem to have not made plain enough for you: this isn't to hammer down a concrete, singular, broadly applicable definition of what X or Y is, but rather to find out how people experience X or Y, how it colors their thinking, how they feel about it, what it means to be X or Y, etc.
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    anyway. i wonder if this post will just get lost in the other stuff.

    IJ. idk. my leading function is Ji, i'm introverted and rational...my energy levels are pretty steady i guess. i haven't given a lot of thought to my temperament and i don't see myself as especially stiff or w/e IJs are supposed to be...maybe i am, comparatively. i wonder how much subtype plays a role (being a Pe subtype and H in dcnh).

    i dont have anything remarkably fascinating to say about this topic but i'm curious how much other people identify with their temperaments. rerail attempt!

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    5. Recapitulation of Extraverted Rational Types

    I term the two preceding types rational or judging types because they are characterized by the supremacy of the reasoning and the judging functions. It is a general distinguishing mark of both types that their life is, to a [p. 453] large extent, subordinated to reasoning judgment. But we must not overlook the point, whether by 'reasoning' we are referring to the standpoint of the individual's subjective psychology, or to the standpoint of the observer, who perceives and judges from without. For such an observer could easily arrive at an opposite judgment, especially if he has a merely intuitive apprehension of the behaviour of the observed, and judges accordingly. In its totality, the life of this type is never dependent upon reasoning judgment alone; it is influenced in almost equal degree by unconscious irrationality. If observation is restricted to behaviour, without any concern for the domestic interior of the individual's consciousness, one may get an even stronger impression of the irrational and accidental character of certain unconscious manifestations in the individual's behaviour than of the reasonableness of his conscious purposes and motivations. I, therefore, base my judgment upon what the individual feels to be his conscious psychology. But I am prepared to grant that we may equally well entertain a precisely opposite conception of such a psychology, and present it accordingly. I am also convinced that, had I myself chanced to possess a different individual psychology, I should have described the rational types in the reversed way, from the standpoint of the unconscious-as irrational, therefore. This circumstance aggravates the difficulty of a lucid presentation of psychological matters to a degree not to be underestimated, and immeasurably increases the possibility of misunderstandings. The discussions which develop from these misunderstandings are, as a rule, quite hopeless, since the real issue is never joined, each side speaking, as it were, in a different tongue. Such experience is merely one reason the more for basing my presentation upon the subjective conscious psychology of the individual, since there, at least, one has a definite objective footing, which completely [p. 454] drops away the moment we try to ground psychological principles upon the unconscious. For the observed, in this case, could undertake no kind of co-operation, because there is nothing of which he is not more informed than his own unconscious. The judgment would entirely devolve upon the observer -- a certain guarantee that its basis would be his own individual psychology, which would infallibly be imposed upon the observed. To my mind, this is the case in the psychologies both of Freud and of Adler. The individual is completely at the mercy of the arbitrary discretion of his observing critic -- which can never be the case when the conscious psychology of the observed is accepted as the basis. After all, he is the only competent judge, since he alone knows his own motives.

    The reasonableness that characterizes the conscious management of life in both these types, involves a conscious exclusion of the accidental and non-rational. Reasoning judgment, in such a psychology, represents a power that coerces the untidy and accidental things of life into definite forms; such at least is its aim. Thus, on the one hand, a definite choice is made among the possibilities of life, since only the rational choice is consciously accepted; but, on the other hand, the independence and influence of those psychic functions which perceive life's happenings are essentially restricted. This limitation of sensation and intuition is, of course, not absolute. These functions exist, for they are universal; but their products are subject to the choice of the reasoning judgment. It is not the absolute strength of sensation, for instance, which turns the scales in the motivation of action, but judgment, Thus, in a certain sense, the perceiving-functions share the same fate as feeling in the case of the first type, or thinking in that of the second. They are relatively repressed, and therefore in an inferior state of differentiation. This circumstance gives a particular stamp to the unconscious [p. 455] of both our types; what such men do consciously and intentionally accords with reason (their reason of course), but what happens to them corresponds either with infantile, primitive sensations, or with similarly archaic intuitions. I will try to make clear what I mean by these latter concepts in the sections that follow. At all events, that which happens to this type is irrational (from their own standpoint of course). Now, since there are vast numbers of men whose lives consist in what happens to them more than in actions resulting from reasoned intention, it might conceivably happen, that such a man, after careful analysis, would describe both our types as irrational. We must grant him, however, that only too often a man's unconscious makes a far stronger impression upon one than his conscious, and that his actions often have considerably more weight and meaning than his reasoned motivations.

    The rationality of both types is orientated objectively, and depends upon objective data. Their reasonableness corresponds with what passes as reasonable from the collective standpoint. Subjectively they consider nothing rational save what is generally considered as such. But reason is also very largely subjective and individual. In our case this share is repressed -- increasingly so, in fact, the more the significance of the object is exalted, Both the subject and subjective reason, therefore, are always threatened with repression and, when it descends, they fall under the tyranny of the unconscious, which in this case possesses most unpleasant qualities. We have already spoken of its thinking. But, in addition, there are primitive sensations, which reveal themselves in compulsive forms, as, for instance, an abnormal compulsive pleasure seeking in every conceivable direction ; there are also primitive intuitions, which can become a positive torture to the individuals concerned, not to mention their entourage. Everything disagreeable and painful, everything disgusting, [p. 456] ugly, and evil is scented out or suspected, and these as a rule only correspond with half-truths, than which nothing is more calculated to create misunderstandings of the most poisonous kind. The powerful influence of the opposing unconscious contents necessarily brings about a frequent interruption of the rational conscious government, namely, a striking subservience to the element of chance, so that, either by virtue of their sensational value or unconscious significance, accidental happenings acquire a compelling influence.


    10. Recapitulation of Extraverted Irrational Types

    I call the two preceding types irrational for reasons already referred to; namely, because their commissions and omissions are based not upon reasoned judgment but upon the absolute intensity of perception. Their perception is concerned with simple happenings, where no selection has been exercised by the judgment. In this respect both the latter types have a considerable superiority over the two judging types. The objective occurrence is both law-determined and accidental. In so far as it is law-determined, it is accessible to reason; in so far as it is accidental, it is not. One might reverse it and say that we apply the term law-determined to the occurrence appearing so to our reason, and where its regularity escapes us we call it accidental. The postulate of a universal lawfulness remains a postulate of reason only; in no sense is it a postulate of our functions of perception. Since these are in no way grounded upon the principle of reason and its postulates, they are, of their very nature, irrational. Hence my term 'irrational' corresponds with the nature of the perception-types. But merely because they subordinate judgment to perception, it would be quite incorrect to regard these types as unreasonable. They are merely in a high degree empirical; they are grounded exclusively upon experience, so exclusively, in fact, that as a rule, their judgment cannot keep pace with their experience. But the functions of judgment are none the less present, although they eke out a largely unconscious existence. But, since the unconscious, in spite of its separation from the conscious subject, is always reappearing on the scene, the actual life of the irrational types exhibits striking judgments and acts of choice, which take the form of apparent sophistries, cold-hearted criticisms, and an apparently purposeful [p. 469] selection of persons and situations. These traits have a rather infantile, or even primitive, stamp; at times they are astonishingly naive, but at times also inconsiderate, crude, or outrageous. To the rationally orientated mind, the real character of such people might well appear rationalistic and purposeful in the bad sense. But this judgment would be valid only for their unconscious, and, therefore, quite incorrect for their conscious psychology, which is entirely orientated by perception, and because of its irrational nature is quite unintelligible to the rational judgment. Finally, it may even appear to a rationally orientated mind that such an assemblage of accidentals, hardly deserves the name 'psychology.' The irrational type balances this contemptuous judgment with an equally poor impression of the rational; for he sees him as something only half alive, whose only aim in life consists in fastening the fetters of reason upon everything living, and wringing his own neck with criticisms. Naturally, these are gross extremes; but they occur.

    From the standpoint of the rational type, the irrational might easily be represented as a rational of inferior quality; namely, when he is apprehended in the light of what happens to him. For what happens to him is not the accidental-in that he is master-but, in its stead, he is overtaken by rational judgment and rational aims. This fact is hardly comprehensible to the rational mind, but its unthinkableness merely equals the astonishment of the irrational, when he discovers someone who can set the ideas of reason above the living and actual event. Such a thing seems scarcely credible to him. It is, as a rule, quite hopeless to look to him for any recognition of principles in this direction, since a rational understanding is just as unknown and, in fact, tiresome to him as the idea of making a contract, without mutual discussion and obligations, appears unthinkable to the rational type. [p. 470]

    This point brings me to the problem of the psychic relation between the representatives of the different types. Following the terminology of the French school of hypnotists, the psychic relation among the more modern psychiatrists is termed I 'rapport'. Rapport chiefly consists in a feeling of actual accord, in spite of recognised differences. In fact, the recognition of existing differences, in so far as they are common to both, is already a rapport, a feeling of accord. If we make this feeling conscious to a rather high degree in an actual case, we discover that it has not merely the quality of a feeling that cannot be analysed further, but it also has the nature of an insight or cognitional content, representing the point of agreement in a conceptual form. This rational presentation is exclusively valid for the rational types; it by no means applies to the irrational, whose rapport is based not at all upon judgment but upon the parallelism of actual living events. His feeling of accord is the common perception of a sensation or intuition. The rational would say that rapport with the irrational depends purely upon chance. If, by some accident, the objective situations are exactly in tune, something like a human relationship takes place, but nobody can tell what will be either its validity or its duration. To the rational type it is often a very bitter thought that the relationship will last only just so long as external circumstances accidentally produce a mutual interest. This does not occur to him as being especially human, whereas it is precisely in this situation that the irrational sees a humanity of quite singular beauty. Accordingly each regards the other as a man destitute of relationships, upon whom no reliance can be placed, and with whom one can never get on decent terms. Such a result, however, is reached only when one consciously tries to make some estimate of the nature of one's relationships with one's fellow-men. Although a psychological conscientiousness of [p. 471] this kind is by no means usual, yet it frequently happens that, notwithstanding an absolute difference of standpoint, a kind of rapport does take place, and in the following way. The one assumes with unspoken projection that the other is, in all essential points, of the same opinion as himself, while the other divines or senses an objective community of interest, of which, however, the former has no conscious inkling and whose existence he would at once dispute, just as it would never occur to the latter that his relationship must rest upon a common point-of-view. A rapport of this kind is by far the most frequent; it rests upon projection, which is the source of many subsequent misunderstandings.

    Psychic relationship, in the extraverted attitude, is always regulated by objective factors and outer determinants. What a man is within has never any decisive significance. For our present-day culture the extraverted attitude is the governing principle in the problem of human relationship; naturally, the introverted principle occurs, but it is still the exception, and has to appeal to the tolerance of the age.



    5. Recapitulation of Introverted Rational Types

    Both the foregoing types are rational, since they are founded upon reasoning, judging functions. Reasoning [p. 496] judgment is based not merely upon objective, but also upon subjective, data. But the predominance of one or other factor, conditioned by a psychic disposition often existing from early youth, deflects the reasoning function. For a judgment to be really reasonable it should have equal reference to both the objective and the subjective factors, and be able to do justice to both. This, however, would be an ideal case, and would presuppose a uniform development of both extraversion and introversion. But either movement excludes the other, and, so long as this dilemma persists, they cannot possibly exist side by, side, but at the most successively. Under ordinary circumstances, therefore, an ideal reason is impossible. A rational type has always a typical reasonal variation. Thus, the introverted rational types unquestionably have a reasoning judgment, only it is a judgment whose leading note is subjective. The laws of logic are not necessarily deflected, since its onesidedness lies in the premise. The premise is the predominance of the subjective factor existing beneath every conclusion and colouring every judgment. Its superior value as compared with the objective factor is self-evident from the beginning. As already stated, it is not just a question of value bestowed, but of a natural disposition existing before all rational valuation. Hence, to the introvert rational judgment necessarily appears to have many nuances which differentiate it from that of the extravert. Thus, to the introvert, to mention the most general instance, that chain of reasoning which leads to the subjective factor appears rather more reasonable than that which leads to the object. This difference, which in the individual case is practically insignificant, indeed almost unnoticeable, effects unbridgeable oppositions in the gross; these are the more irritating, the less we are aware of the minimal standpoint displacement produced by the psychological premise in the individual case. A [p. 497] capital error regularly creeps in here, for one labours to prove a fallacy in the conclusion, instead of realizing the difference of the psychological premise. Such a realization is a difficult matter for every rational type, since it undermines the apparent, absolute validity of his own principle, and delivers him over to its antithesis, which certainly amounts to a catastrophe.

    Almost more even than the extraverted is the introverted type subject to misunderstanding: not so much because the extravert is a more merciless or critical adversary, than he himself can easily be, but because the style of the epoch in which he himself participates is against him. Not in relation to the extraverted type, but as against our general accidental world-philosophy, he finds himself in the minority, not of course numerically, but from the evidence of his own feeling. In so far as he is a convinced participator in the general style, he undermines his own foundations, since the present style, with its almost exclusive acknowledgment of the visible and the tangible, is opposed to his principle. Because of its invisibility, he is obliged to depreciate the subjective factor, and to force himself to join in the extraverted overvaluation of the object. He himself sets the subjective factor at too low a value, and his feelings of inferiority are his chastisement for this sin. Little wonder, therefore, that it is precisely our epoch, and particularly those movements which are somewhat ahead of the time, that reveal the subjective factor in every kind of exaggerated, crude and grotesque form of expression. I refer to the art of the present day.

    The undervaluation of his own principle makes the introvert egotistical, and forces upon him the psychology of the oppressed. The more egotistical he becomes, the stronger his impression grows that these others, who are apparently able, without qualms, to conform with the present style, are the oppressors against whom he must guard and [p. 498] protect himself. He does not usually perceive that he commits his capital mistake in not depending upon the subjective factor with that same loyalty and devotion with which the extravert follows the object By the undervaluation of his own principle, his penchant towards egoism becomes unavoidable, which, of course, richly deserves the prejudice of the extravert. Were he only to remain true to his own principle, the judment of 'egoist' would be radically false; for the justification of his attitude would be established by its general efficacy, and all misunderstandings dissipated.


    10. Recapitulation of Introverted Irrational Types

    The two types just depicted are almost inaccessible to external judgment. Because they are introverted and have in consequence a somewhat meagre capacity or willingness for expression, they offer but a frail handle for a telling criticism. Since their main activity is directed within, nothing is outwardly visible but reserve, secretiveness, lack of sympathy, or uncertainty, and an apparently groundless perplexity. When anything does come to the surface, it usually consists in indirect manifestations of inferior and relatively unconscious functions. Manifestations of such a nature naturally excite a certain environmental prejudice against these types. Accordingly they are mostly underestimated, or at least misunderstood. To the same degree as they fail to understand themselves -- because they very largely lack judgment -- they are also powerless to understand why they are so constantly undervalued by public opinion. They cannot see that their outward-going expression is, as a matter of fact, also of an inferior character. Their vision is enchanted by the abundance of subjective events. What happens there is so captivating, and of such inexhaustible attraction, that they do not appreciate the fact that their habitual communications to their circle express very, little of that real experience in which they themselves are, as it were, caught up. The fragmentary and, as a rule, quite episodic character of their communications make too great a demand upon the understanding and good will of their circle; furthermore, their mode of expression lacks that flowing warmth to the object which alone can have convincing force. On the contrary, these types show very often a brusque, repelling demeanour towards the outer world, although of this they are quite unaware, and have not the least intention of showing it. We shall form a [p. 512] fairer judgment of such men and grant them a greater indulgence, when we begin to realize how hard it is to translate into intelligible language what is perceived within. Yet this indulgence must not be so liberal as to exempt them altogether from the necessity of such expression. This could be only detrimental for such types. Fate itself prepares for them, perhaps even more than for other men, overwhelming external difficulties, which have a very sobering effect upon the intoxication of the inner vision. But frequently only an intense personal need can wring from them a human expression.

    From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, such types are indeed the most fruitless of men. But, viewed from a higher standpoint, such men are living evidence of the fact that this rich and varied world with its overflowing and intoxicating life is not purely external, but also exists within. These types are admittedly one sided demonstrations of Nature, but they are an educational experience for the man who refuses to be blinded by the intellectual mode of the day. In their own way, men with such an attitude are educators and promoters of culture. Their life teaches more than their words. From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest fault, viz. their incommunicability, we may understand one of the greatest errors of our civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate overprizing of instruction by means of word and method. A child certainly allows himself to be impressed by the grand talk of its parents. But is it really imagined that the child is thereby educated? Actually it is the parents' lives that educate the child -- what they add thereto by word and gesture at best serves only to confuse him. The same holds good for the teacher. But we have such a belief in method that, if only the method be good, the practice of it seems to hallow the teacher. An inferior [p. 513] man is never. a good teacher. But he can conceal his injurious inferiority, which secretly poisons the pupil, behind an excellent method or, an equally brilliant intellectual capacity. Naturally the pupil of riper years desires nothing better than the knowledge of useful methods, because he is already defeated by the general attitude, which believes in the victorious method. He has already learnt that the emptiest head, correctly echoing a method, is the best pupil. His whole environment not only urges but exemplifies the doctrine that all success and happiness are external, and that only the right method is needed to attain the haven of one's desires. Or is the life of his religious instructor likely to demonstrate that happiness which radiates from the treasure of the inner vision? The irrational introverted types are certainly no instructors of a more complete humanity. They lack reason and the ethics of reason, but their lives teach the other possibility, in which our civilization is so deplorably wanting.

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    Tries to finish all the necessary tasks very quickly so he could go back to relaxing. He gets tired very quickly. Moves fluently and tries to relax very often. He enjoys slow rhythmic activities, avoids any kind of heavy load.
    The story of my life right here.

    I love temperaments, they're so easy and so accurate, what socionics should be.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Everyone here pretty much ignored the OP lol. T16T
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    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    haha I guess I could answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    What is your temperament?
    IP

    How do you feel about/experience your temperament? What would you say its like to be a person of your temperament?
    um...relaxing?

    Is there any great boons/major suckages to being of your temperament?
    Having to rely on spurts of energy basically sucks. Building up the required energy sucks.

    lol was I helpful???

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Well hell, since we're all having such a jolly time taking about IEs, why don't we talk about temperaments?

    What is your temperament? How do you feel about/experience your temperament? What would you say its like to be a person of your temperament? Is there any great boons/major suckages to being of your temperament? Other such prodding questions about temperament.
    IP temperament.

    I experience it as being unable to generate my own/enough (physical and mental) energy for large tasks which leads to a micromanagement-style approach to life. I ignore the larger prospects, carve out a niche, and work with what I have. In terms of fitting in with society, as a working force, it sucks because the enthusiasm for the world and "being all I can be" is just not there. Motivation has to come from within, which doesn't come by very often. Though I think with the right kind of effort, and some luck ,an IP would have the best lifestyle out of the other temperaments(only IP because this is my perspective).
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    My experience of the IP temperament:

    My gait and general movements are relaxed and unhurried. Short of a full tackle it is nearly impossible to knock me off my feet. Slips and slides on winter ice almost never result in a fall, though when they do I always land perfectly on my back without injury. Though my feet are large my step is fairly light and I usually notice when small items or toes are being stepped on before damage is done. I'm given to slouching in chairs.

    I'm given to staying up late, sleeping little, and laying in the weeds in the morning before dashing out the door. While working I maintain a steady pace and remain on task all day. Strenuous exertion is frequently required but I appreciate the exercise. Once the workday has ended I quickly de-mobilize and become far less businesslike, and usually have no desire to socialize with coworkers.

    I prefer individual sport activities like biking or hiking to the team variety, though I can often be talked into playing a little basketball or broomball. Working out is a good idea but rather boring and can easily slip my mind, so it's easier to stay on a regimen with a more motivated exercise partner.

    The leisure activities that take up the bulk of my free time are largely mental, though they usually involve instruments or tools of some kind as well. Given a space where I can read or tinker without interruption and listen to what I like, I'm quite content.

    Socially is where my energy levels are most variable. I can abruptly transition between gregarious raconteur, living ghost, and dour misanthrope. If I'm musing about something it can be irritating when when others demand my attention, though usually a quick sigh of resignation realigns my mindset to deal with their problem. Once they've been tended to then I might strike up a convo with someone or sink back into my head while observing the goings-on. Large social gatherings are generally curiosities to be examined from the periphery, though I might also wade into the main throng. Should my mood wane or sour I simply depart without fanfare.

    It's nearly impossible for people to surprise me, even if they manage to sneak up and jab me in the ribs or shout unexpectedly. Dogs that suddenly lunge from nowhere are usually answered with a laugh, and likewise threats to beat my ass (if you didn't notice by now, I'm a bit sassy sometimes, so I receive the occasional offer of a fat lip). Established patterns in people, musical forms, news events, etc. are boring. I'm more likely to become irritated by things that don't change. New events and information are generally taken in stride, and calamities are met with a rather philosophical disposition.

    In a crisis situation I remain level headed while taking immediate action to address the situation. I've extinguished a few fires and halted a number of fights, talked police into releasing my miscreant friends, separated fighting dogs, and calmly dealt with my own broken bones and bad cuts, or those of others. Despite or perhaps because of my penchant for combativeness, I usually make a good mediator during others' disputes, or referee if the participants decide to actually fight.

    When there are no strong pressures to act I'm often given over to inertia and sometimes need or want an external push to get motivated. Occasionally I may even arrange for others to hold me accountable for meeting deadlines, with penalties included, so that the consequences for failure become more "real".

    Naturally there's some functional coloration here but this is fairly pared down.

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    Here's what I see in myself as an (Ji) EP temperament:

    Even if I'm not paying attention to it, I'm always doing something. My mind is generally very receptive to the world around me, and I'm always fiddling around with stuff, figuring out the properties of things without even having to think about it. I was very prone to breaking stuff when I was a lot younger because I would try to bend and shape and futz around with anything I could get my hand on. I've also always had a fascination with building stuff. I have distinct memories of me as a child playing with enormous bins of Legos, throwing together haphazard designs and sharing them with my parents. When I was older I wanted to become a roller coaster engineer and build a whole bunch of crazy crap.

    This part may be influenced by the Ji subtype (or being a 6), but all of what I just explained is treated as much more like a background process or an auto-pilot mode. I consider my reflective and contemplative states to be of more value than building crazy lego worlds on a whim. When I get into those modes where I sink into myself, I can't be shaken out of them. It's like my brain refuses to be jerked out of those trance-like states without some sort of gradual coaxing, but even then it can be kind of uncomfortable. Depending on how intense such a state is I can stay in it for several days at a time if not longer. I find this creates a sort of inner conflict, because my pre-programmed disposition towards external objects doesn't serve those times of contemplation justice. There's a sort of double-negative version of "still water runs deep," where say the surface of a river is bubbling and splashing while the bottom is motionless.

    My moods are prone to wild vacillations depending on how stimulated I am. When there isn't much going on I revert to a sort of cruise control, and unless I'm dog-tired or I'm totally preoccupied by my inner Ji bullshit, my brain is open to new information. Then once something captures my interest and I see it fit to engage myself with the thing I'll go all out on it. This is particularly apparent when I'm around a group of friends: one moment I could be chatting up a storm, shooting my mouth off at a hundred miles a second, then once the conversation dies down I get really languid and unengaging until my energy picks up again. I can totally immerse myself in the thing I'm excited about, but at the same time I still won't lose a sense of who I actually am. I wouldn't really call myself spastic in that way, because my energy surges can seem a bit more calculated than it would be for some Pe-EPs. Or maybe I've just cultivated enough self-awareness to understand how my mind works and how something will probably end up if I go for it.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    The story of my life right here.

    I love temperaments, they're so easy and so accurate, what socionics should be.
    This describes all harmonising subtypes really

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    What is your temperament? How do you feel about/experience your temperament? What would you say its like to be a person of your temperament? Is there any great boons/major suckages to being of your temperament? Other such prodding questions about temperament.
    I'm supposed to be Ij.. I like my persistence with going on steady never giving up and being totally single-mindedly focused on my stuff and finishing the stuff while keeping energy reserves, idk why, just in case or something. I'm not as extremely conservative with energy as the description makes it out to be though. See below on that. I also like the emotionally stable default state of mine but "like" is a strong word for that because that state is just so natural that I take it for granted and only notice the sore lack of it when it's gone missing, that happens only rarely tho' so I'm all good heh. Interestingly enough, anger states don't feel like my balance is upset much, I guess that's because I still keep a logical core.

    Otoh what doesn't really fit under any standard temperament is that from time to time I feel like I need to shake up things with the default steadiness so I'll make some "unexpected moves" and stuff then, just for the fun of that, definitely not going overboard with this though and I'm still controlled about those moves underneath. And that's what makes it real fun somehow, the control behind it all. I can also sometimes change the pattern/parts of the order in which I do a task, out of the same motivation.. In terms of energy expenditure much of this definitely takes more energy too -in bursts- but I actually like that, hell why not. I don't relate to the idea that I'd be always always reserving possible maximal amount of energy. Whenever I make some move -I don't just mean the "unexpected stuff" here- that's not part of a longer process, I always put in more energy than the minimum required. If part of a longer process then I instantly go to energy conservation mode, that's true.

    Ew, yoga and "healing slow" stuff is the recommended sports? That's not for me, no, that'd be boring me to death. Marathon running is ok but only at a decent pace, not the slow shit. I like faster shit than that, I'm just not interested in reserving all of my energy when doing sports because I'm focused on the competition instead, though I do reserve some whenever I can. That's just how I am.. so yes I like the marathon running stuff and I can also like going slow while feeling like I can go on forever because that gives me a certain feeling of power but I also like sports with strong bursts of energy with rests between, that just gives another kind of feeling of a different kind of power. Hard to say which type of sport I like more, honestly. And I disagree that I can't have enthusiasm and briskness or whatever in sports.

    Also... I know half of the forum types me SLE and the other half LSI but I don't relate to the Ep temperament as described in the posts here, that's too much randomness and too much multitasking for me. I am just not that flexible and loose either, I'm much more tight than loose. Though I know the stuff I said above about releasing bursts of energy sounds Ep-ish but I doubt Ep's keep that control underneath all of it. And with the multitasking, sometimes when I feel like challenging myself, I do try to play with that too in a similar controlled fashion meaning I still keep threads together in one single focus. Aand, that's again so good, heh, I mean, the focus thingie. And the challenge.

    Something where I don't know if I'm more Ij or more Ep: I'm not sure about stress tolerance in those rapidly changing situations. I like the idea of responding quickly, that actually sounds enjoyable, but I haven't been in such situations for an extended period of time so idk what it is like then.

    OK, what I don't like about Ij is that sometimes I would like to be able to put in more energy for some stuff. Though it's not like I can't go on with stuff even when I'm tired if I need to go on or if I will myself to go on because, simply, being tired shouldn't get in the way


    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    The Smilingeyes's comments seem spot on for Ij, in my case anyway...


    The temperament in socionics is a dynamic quantity because it describes the energy consumption process and it shows the volume and speed of the changes in energy expenditure. This is why the temperament can be determined by monitoring the movements and activities of the person. We must observe how that person walks, works and does sports.
    Uh my "energy consumption process" doesn't fit strictly under any temperament as seen above in my description. As I said.. steady controlled with some reserving of energies is the default but sometimes I "burst out" of that to a higher level. That's how I can really sum it up.

    The way I walk, yeah, it's pretty much J as fuck in terms of not deviating and not looking around much but sometimes I can for fun run over/above obstacles or around them, when I'm in those "burst modes". And usually I walk fast, I love walking very very fast, otoh I actually do it in a way that doesn't waste energy, lol, if you look at me it looks like I hardly move my arms around and legs either but I walk much faster than many people who flail around with their arms and pick up their legs like crazy. As for working, sure, I don't multitask much, I finish something first before doing anything else and before finishing I focus on that task single-mindedly. Sometimes, especially when I have to do several physical things -meaning it requires me go/move around a lot and handle several objects-, I like to emulate the multitasking for fun as described earlier. And I like to do anything really fast that's of the sort of job that requires either physical input and/or a quick mind esp with very good mental control over organizing the task. I really enjoy working fast then. Otherwise, if the task is not like that, I just work at that steady slower pace. Uh also if I procrastinated until a deadline then I do the whole thing in one go at higher intensity, for this type of stress I have pretty good tolerance but I can burn out temporarily if I do this pattern of working too often... As for sports, I already described above... I've got a steady Ij and a work-in-bursts Ep mode for sports depending on what type of sport it is and I enjoy both.
    Last edited by Myst; 07-13-2015 at 05:23 AM.

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    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    whatever my temperment all these words overwhelm me.

    i like coffee, and doing stuff sometimes, and not doing anything other times.

    when i'm not busy i don't look "busy" like some people seem to. and i react better with some stress. and get unfocused and irresponsible in idle situations.

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    IMO the articles available on 16types about temparements are pretty weak. Recomending sports by temparament, seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan View Post
    whatever my temperment all these words overwhelm me.

    i like coffee, and doing stuff sometimes, and not doing anything other times.

    when i'm not busy i don't look "busy" like some people seem to. and i react better with some stress. and get unfocused and irresponsible in idle situations.
    sounds like Ep just fine


    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    IMO the articles available on 16types about temparements are pretty weak. Recomending sports by temparament, seriously?
    got better articles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    sounds like Ep just fine




    got better articles?
    No. I was recently looking for others but didn't find any in english language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    No. I was recently looking for others but didn't find any in english language.
    ok too bad

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    Default History of 4 Temperaments and Spiritual Direction for Temperaments

    The long answer on what is temperament can be found in the link below. Various history of temperaments, including:

    - beginning with Hippocrates (b. ca. 460 B.C.), furthered by Polybus and Galan (not our Galan) - all about BILES! and is a basis of modern medicine

    - the 11th c. Regimen Sanitatis Salernitanum, attributed to John of Milano, give the basic run-down as to the effects of too much of one humor or another

    - a discussion on the seasons, and how they play a role in balancing or unbalancing the humors, by
    St. John Damascene (b. ca. 676)

    - The eight musical notes are affected by the temperaments - two notes in each.

    - An explanation of the four temperaments: Sanguine, Choleric, Melancholic, Phlegmatic

    All of the above is here: https://www.fisheaters.com/fourtemperaments.html

    ____________________

    Also, here is Spiritual Direction tailored to the four temperaments. (This can also be considered the remedy for those awful effects of "too much humor" as described by John of Milano, above): http://www.academia.edu/5271941/The_Four_Temperaments
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    The long answer on what is temperament can be found in the link below.
    That's not really the same thing. There is no direct correlation between Hippocrates's temperaments and theory of socionics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Well hell, since we're all having such a jolly time taking about IEs, why don't we talk about temperaments?

    What is your temperament? How do you feel about/experience your temperament? What would you say its like to be a person of your temperament? Is there any great boons/major suckages to being of your temperament? Other such prodding questions about temperament.
    EP
    I usually have a lot of energy, I am doing multiple activities at once and often stay up late because I'm too engaged in whatever I am doing. I walk fast and bump into things, I change my route all the time. I find it easy to start anything at a moment's notice as long as I'm interested in it, but very hard to finish anything, I don't completely finish something before moving on to something else, I jump back and forth. Sometimes I get lazy and walk slow or suddenly fall asleep in a chair, because I don't realize how tired I am. Related to weak

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    I can sit in the same position for hours even with my legs crossed underneath me. I may fidget a little if I am being watched but otherwise I can be relaxed and still. I am told my movements look slow and a bit deliberate (they are not). I am very physically flexible.

    I can also bump into walls when I am not paying attention, which I try recover from gracefully even if I am not being watched. I have been told I am graceful in embarrassing situations like a slip or fall.

    I relate to ip descriptions best.

    The IP temperament, or receptive-adaptive temperament, was identified by Viktor Gulenko and includes the four irrational introverts (one in each quadra):IEI, SEI, ILI, and SLI. Each of these types is also dynamic.

    Typical characteristics


    • relaxed
    • go-with-the-flow
    • finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy
    • movements are flexible, unhurried
    • little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods

    IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.
    As introverts, IPs tend to be relaxed and somewhat passive about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative.


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    That's not really the same thing. There is no direct correlation between Hippocrates's temperaments and theory of socionics
    I'm betting there is a direct correlation... but I don't feel like figuring it completely out. I think maybe ESFps and ENFps and I am not sure which two others is Sanguines, ISTps are Phlegmatic.. but then there are 13 other types to fit in... but I think they would fit.

    But yes, this is probably not the temperaments the OP is talking about.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I'm betting there is a direct correlation... but I don't feel like figuring it completely out. I think maybe ESFps and ENFps and I am not sure which two others is Sanguines, ISTps are Phlegmatic.. but then there are 13 other types to fit in... but I think they would fit.

    But yes, this is probably not the temperaments the OP is talking about.
    No. You'd lose the bet.

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    I think more or less the point of studying the Ij/Ep/Ip/Ej temperaments in relation to the more informational aspects of socionics is probably the idea that the way we experience consciousness has an immense impact on the ways we can reasonably form frameworks of conceptualizing things (since after all, how we think begins with our experience of consciousness). So I more or less see the ideas of Jungian typology as capturing the main themes that arise out of the basic elements/attitudinal dispositions of consciousness, and how they form into coherent ways for the mind to see a situation.

    I tend not to assume that the informational aspect will align with the less informational and more behavioral aspects of temperament, but it certainly can and does in many instances. That similar themes show up on both sides doesn't seem to be an accident, since we assemble perspectives based on concepts that seem relatable to our experience, and if certain psychological factors are constantly present in experience, there's a good chance they will influence the fundamental structure of our thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I'm betting there is a direct correlation... but I don't feel like figuring it completely out. I think maybe ESFps and ENFps and I am not sure which two others is Sanguines, ISTps are Phlegmatic.. but then there are 13 other types to fit in... but I think they would fit.

    But yes, this is probably not the temperaments the OP is talking about.
    I just took the quiz on your link. Some of it is fitting but I don't consider myself nervous or a worrier though. I have bursts of anxiety but can calm myself eventually.

    https://www.fisheaters.com/quiz1.html






    You are a "nervous" Melancholic, with an abundance of black bile. Melancholics are characterized by the element of Earth, the season of Autumn, middle-aged adulthood, the colors black and blue, Saturn, and the characteristics of "Cold" and "Dry." Animals used to symbolize the Melancholic include the pig, cat, and owl. To ehnance your Melancholic tendencies, listen to music in the Mixolydian Mode; to diminish those tendencies, listen to music in the Hypomixolydian mode.

    Famous Melancholics include St. John of the Cross, St. John the Divine, St. Francis, and St. Catherine of Siena.

    If you were living in the Age of Faith, perfect career choices for you would be contemplative religious, theologian, artist, or writer.


    From "The Four Temperaments," by Rev. Conrad Hock:

    The Melancholic:


    • Is self-conscious, easily embarrassed, timid, bashful.
    • Avoids talking before a group; when obliged to he finds it difficult.
    • Prefers to work and play alone. Good in details; careful.
    • Is deliberative; slow in making decisions; perhaps overcautious even in minor matters.
    • Is lacking in self-confidence and initiative; compliant and yielding.
    • Tends to detachment from environment; reserved and distant except to intimate friends.
    • Tends to depression; frequently moody or gloomy; very sensitive; easily hurt.
    • Does not form acquaintances readily; prefers narrow range of friends; tends to exclude others.
    • Worries over possible misfortune; crosses bridges before coming to them.
    • Is secretive; seclusive; shut in; not inclined to speak unless spoken to.
    • Is slow in movement; deliberative or perhaps indecisive; moods frequent and constant.
    • Is often represents himself at a disadvantage; modest and unassuming.

    The melancholic person is but feebly excited by whatever acts upon him. The reaction is weak, but this feeble impression remains for a long time and by subsequent similar impressions grows stronger and at last excites the mind so vehemently that it is difficult to eradicate it.

    Such impression may be compared to a post, which by repeated strokes is driven deeper and deeper into the ground, so that at last it is hardly possible to pull it out again. This propensity of the melancholic needs special attention. It serves as a key to solve the many riddles in his behavior.


    II FUNDAMENTAL DISPOSITION OF THE MELANCHOLIC

    1. Inclination to reflection. The thinking of the melancholic easily turns into reflection. The thoughts of the melancholic are far reaching. He dwells with pleasure upon the past and is preoccupied by occurrences of the long ago; he is penetrating; is not satisfied with the superficial, searches for the cause and correlation of things; seeks the laws which affect human life, the principles according to which man should act. His thoughts are of a wide range; he looks ahead into the future; ascends to the eternal. The melancholic is of an extremely soft-hearted disposition. His very thoughts arouse his own sympathy and are accompanied by a mysterious longing. Often they stir him up profoundly, particularly religious reflections or plans which he cherishes; yet he hardly permits his fierce excitement to be noticed outwardly. The untrained melancholic is easily given to brooding and to day-dreaming.

    2. Love of retirement. The melancholic does not feel at home among a crowd for any length of time; he loves silence and solitude. Being inclined to introspection he secludes himself from the crowds, forgets his environment, and makes poor use of his senses — eyes, ears, etc. In company he is often distracted, because he is absorbed by his own thoughts. By reason of his lack of observation and his dreaming the melancholic person has many a mishap in his daily life and at his work.

    3. Serious conception of life. The melancholic looks at life always from the serious side. At the core of his heart there is always a certain sadness, 'a weeping of the heart,' not because the melancholic is sick or morbid, as many claim, but because he is permeated with a strong longing for an ultimate good (God) and eternity, and feels continually hampered by earthly and temporal affairs and impeded in his cravings. The melancholic is a stranger here below and feels homesick for God and eternity.

    4. Inclination to passivity. The melancholic is a passive temperament. The person possessing such a temperament, therefore, has not the vivacious, quick, progressive, active propensity, of the choleric or sanguine, but is slow, pensive, reflective. It is difficult to move him to quick action, since he has a marked inclination to passivity and inactivity. This pensive propensity of the melancholic accounts for his fear of suffering and difficulties as well as for his dread of interior exertion and self-denial.


    III PECULIARITIES OF THE MELANCHOLIC

    1. He is reserved. He finds it difficult to form new acquaintances and speaks little among strangers. He reveals his inmost thoughts reluctantly and only to those whom he trusts. He does not easily find the right word to express and describe his sentiments. He yearns often to express himself, because it affords him real relief, to confide the sad, depressing thoughts which burden his heart to a person who sympathizes with him. On the other hand, it requires great exertion on his part to manifest himself, and, when he does so, he goes about it so awkwardly that he does not feel satisfied and finds no rest. Such experiences tend to make the melancholic more reserved. A teacher of melancholic pupils, therefore, must he aware of these peculiarities and must take them into consideration; otherwise he will do a great deal of harm to his charges.

    Confession is a great burden to the melancholic, while it is comparatively easy to the sanguine. The melancholic wants to manifest himself, but cannot; the choleric can express himself easily, but does not want to.

    2. The melancholic is irresolute. On account of too many considerations and too much fear of difficulties and of the possibility that his plans or works may fail, the melancholic can hardly reach a decision. He is inclined to defer his decision. What he could do today he postpones for tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, or even for the next week. Then he forgets about it and thus it happens that what he could have done in an hour takes weeks and months. He is never finished. For many a. melancholic person it may take a long time to decide about his vocation to the religious life. The melancholic is a man of missed opportunities. While he sees that others have crossed the creek long ago, he still deliberates whether he too should and can jump over it. Because the melancholic discovers many ways by his reflection and has difficulties in deciding which one to take, he easily gives way to others, and does not stubbornly insist on his own opinion.

    3. The melancholic is despondent and without courage. He is pusillanimous and timid if he is called upon to begin a new work, to execute a disagreeable task, to venture on a new undertaking. He has a strong will coupled with talent and power, but no courage. It has become proverbial therefore: "Throw the melancholic into the water and he will learn to swim." If difficulties in his undertakings are encountered by the melancholic, even if they are only very insignificant, he feels discouraged and is tempted to give up the ship, instead of conquering the obstacle and repairing the ill success by increased effort.

    4. The melancholic is slow and awkward.

    a) He is slow in his thinking. He feels it necessary, first of all, to consider and reconsider everything until he can form a calm and safe judgment.

    b) He is slow in his speech. If he is called upon to answer quickly or to speak without preparation, or if he fears that too much depends on his answer, he becomes restless and does not find the right word and consequently often makes a false and unsatisfactory reply. This slow thinking may be the reason why the melancholic often stutters, leaves his sentences incomplete, uses wrong phrases, or searches for the right expression. He is also slow, not lazy, at his work. He works carefully and reliably, but only if he has ample time and is not pressed. He himself naturally does not believe that he is a slow worker.

    5. The pride of the melancholic has its very peculiar side. He does not seek honor or recognition; on the contrary, he is loathe to appear in public and to be praised. But he is very much afraid of disgrace and humiliation. He often displays great reserve and thereby gives the impression of modesty and humility; in reality he retires only because he is afraid of being put to shame. He allows others to be preferred to him, even if they are less qualified and capable than himself for the particular work, position, or office, but at the same time he feels slighted because he is being ignored and his talents are not appreciated.

    The melancholic person, if he really wishes to become perfect, must pay very close attention to these feelings of resentment and excessive sensitiveness in the face of even small humiliations.

    From what has been said so far, it is evident that it is difficult to deal with melancholic persons. Because of their peculiarities they are frequently misjudged and treated wrongly. The melancholic feels keenly and therefore retires and secludes himself. Also, the melancholic has few friends, because few understand him and because he takes few into his confidence.


    IV BRIGHT SIDE OF THE MELANCHOLIC TEMPERAMENT

    1. The melancholic practices with ease and joy interior prayer. His serious view of life, his love of solitude, and his inclination to reflection are a great help to him in acquiring the interior life of prayer. He has, as it were, a natural inclination to piety. Meditating on the perishable things of this world he thinks of the eternal; sojourning on earth he is attracted to Heaven. Many saints were of a melancholic temperament. This temperament causes difficulties at prayer, since the melancholic person easily loses courage in trials and sufferings and consequently lacks confidence in God, in his prayers, and can be very much distracted by pusillanimous and sad thoughts.

    2. In communication with God the melancholic finds a deep and indescribable peace.

    He, better than anyone else, understands the words of St. Augustine: "Thee, O Lord, have created us for yourself, and our heart finds no rest, until it rests in Thee." His heart, so capable of strong affections and lofty sentiments, finds perfect peace in communion with God. This peace of heart he also feels in his sufferings, if he only preserves his confidence in God and his love for the Crucified.

    3. The melancholic is often a great benefactor to his fellow men. He guides others to God, is a good counselor in difficulties, and a prudent, trustworthy, and well-meaning superior. He has great sympathy with his fellow men and a keen desire to help them. If the confidence in God supports the melancholic and encourages him to action, he is willing to make great sacrifices for his neighbor and is strong and unshakable in the battle for ideals. Schubert, in his Psychology, says of the melancholic nature: "It has been the prevailing mental disposition of the most sublime poets, artists, of the most profound thinkers, the greatest inventors, legislators, and especially of those spiritual giants who at their time made known to their nations the entrance to a higher and blissful world of the Divine, to which they themselves were carried by an insatiable longing."


    V DARK SIDE OF THE MELANCHOLIC TEMPERAMENT

    1. The melancholic by committing sin falls into the most terrible distress of mind, because in the depth of his heart he is, more than those of other temperaments, filled with a longing desire for God, with a keen perception of the malice and consequences of sin. The consciousness of being separated from God by mortal sin has a crushing effect upon him. If he falls into grievous sin, it is hard for him to rise again, because confession, in which he is bound to humiliate himself deeply, is so hard for him. He is also in great danger of falling back into sin; because by his continual brooding over the sins committed he causes new temptations to arise. When tempted he indulges in sentimental moods, thus increasing the danger and the strength of temptations. To remain in a state of sin or even occasionally to relapse into sin may cause him a profound and lasting sadness, and rob him gradually of confidence in God and in himself. He says to himself: "I have not the strength to rise again and God does not help me either by His grace, for He does not love me but wants to damn me." This fatal condition can easily assume the proportion of despair.

    2. A melancholic person who has no confidence in God and love for the Cross falls into great despondency, inactivity, and even into despair.

    If he has confidence in God and love for the Crucified, he is led to God and sanctified more quickly by suffering mishaps, calumniation, unfair treatment, etc. But if these two virtues are lacking, his condition is very dangerous and pitiable. If sufferings, although little in themselves, befall him, the melancholic person, who has no confidence in God and love for Christ, becomes downcast and depressed, ill-humored and sensitive. He does not speak, or he speaks very little, is peevish and disconsolate and keeps apart from his fellow men. Soon he loses courage to continue his work, and interest even in his professional occupation.

    He feels that he has nothing but sorrow and grief. Finally this disposition may culminate in actual despondency and despair.

    3. The melancholic who gives way to sad moods, falls into many faults against charity and becomes a real burden to his fellow men.

    a) He easily loses confidence in his fellow men, (especially Superiors, Confessors), because of slight defects which he discovers in them, or on account of corrections in small matters.

    b) He is vehemently exasperated and provoked by disorder or injustice. The cause of his exasperation is often justifiable, but rarely to the degree felt.

    c) He can hardly forgive offences. The first offense he ignores quite easily. But renewed offenses penetrate deeply into the soul and can hardly be forgotten. Strong aversion easily takes root in his heart against persons from whom he has suffered, or in whom he finds this or that fault. This aversion becomes so strong that he can hardly see these persons without new excitement, that he does not want to speak to them and is exasperated by the very thought of them. Usually this aversion is abandoned only after the melancholic is separated from persons who incurred his displeasure and at times only after months or even years.

    d) He is very suspicious. He rarely trusts people and is always afraid that others have a grudge against him. Thus he often and without cause entertains uncharitable and unjust suspicion about his neighbor, conjectures evil intentions, and fears dangers which do not exist at all.

    e) He sees everything from the dark side. He is peevish, always draws attention to the serious side of affairs, complains regularly about the perversion of people, bad times, downfall of morals, etc. His motto is: things grow worse all along. Offenses, mishaps, obstacles he always considers much worse than they really are. The consequence is often excessive sadness, unfounded vexation about others, brooding for weeks and weeks on account of real or imaginary insults. Melancholic persons who give way to this disposition to look at everything through a dark glass, gradually become pessimists, that is, persons who always expect a bad result; hypochondriacs, that is, persons who complain continually of insignificant ailments and constantly fear grave sickness; misanthropes, that is, persons who suffer from fear and hatred of men.

    f) He finds peculiar difficulties in correcting people. As said above he is vehemently excited at the slightest disorder or injustice and feels obliged to correct such disorders, but at the same time he has very little skill or courage in making corrections. He deliberates long on how to express the correction; but when he is about to make it, the words fail him, or he goes about it so carefully, so tenderly and reluctantly that it can hardly be called a correction.

    If the melancholic tries to master his timidity, he easily falls into the opposite fault of shouting his correction excitedly, angrily, in unsuited or scolding words, so that again his reproach loses its effect. This difficulty is the besetting cross of melancholic superiors. They are unable to discuss things with others, therefore, they swallow their grief and permit many disorders to creep in, although their conscience recognizes the duty to interfere. Melancholic educators, too, often commit the fault of keeping silent too long about a fault of their charges and when at last they are forced to speak, they do it in such an unfortunate and harsh manner, that the pupils become discouraged and frightened by such admonitions, instead of being encouraged and directed.


    VI METHOD OF SELF-TRAINING FOR THE MELANCHOLIC PERSON

    1. The melancholic must cultivate great confidence in God and love for suffering, for his spiritual and temporal welfare depend on these two virtues. Confidence in God and love of the Crucified are the two pillars on which he will rest so firmly, that he will not succumb to the most severe trials arising from his temperament. The misfortune of the melancholic consists in refusing to carry his cross; his salvation will be found in the voluntary and joyful bearing of that cross. Therefore, he should meditate often on the Providence of God, and the goodness of the Heavenly Father, who sends sufferings only for our spiritual welfare, and he must practice a fervent devotion to the Passion of Christ and His Sorrowful Mother Mary.

    2. He should always, especially during attacks of melancholy, say to himself: ''It is not so bad as I imagine. I see things too darkly," or "I am a pessimist."

    3. He must from the very beginning resist every feeling of aversion, diffidence, discouragement, or despondency, so that these evil impressions can take no root in the soul.

    4. He must keep himself continually occupied, so that he finds no time for brooding. Persevering work will master all.

    5. He is bound to cultivate the good side of his temperament and especially his inclination to interior life and his sympathy for suffering fellow men. He must struggle continually against his weaknesses.

    6. St. Theresa devotes an entire chapter to the treatment of malicious melancholics. She writes: "Upon close observation you will notice that melancholic persons are especially inclined to have their own way, to say everything that comes into their mind, to watch for the faults of others in order to hide their own and to find peace in that which is according to their own liking." St. Theresa, in this chapter touches upon two points to which the melancholic person must pay special attention. He frequently is much excited, full of disgust and bitterness, because he occupies himself too much with the faults of others, and again because he would like to have everything according to his own will and notion.

    He can get into bad humor and discouragement on account of the most insignificant things. If he feels very downcast he should ask himself whether he concerned himself too much about the faults of others. Let other people have their own way! Or whether perhaps things do not go according to his own will. Let him learn the truth of the words of the Imitation (I, 22), "Who is there that has all things according to his will? Neither I nor you, nor any man on earth. There is no man in the world without some trouble or affliction be he king or pope. Who then is the best off? Truly he that is able to suffer something for the love of God."


    VII IMPORTANT POINTS IN THE TRAINING OF THE MELANCHOLIC

    In the treatment of the melancholic special attention must be given to the following points:

    1. It is necessary to have a sympathetic understanding of the melancholic. In his entire deportment he presents many riddles to those who do not understand the peculiarities of the melancholic temperament. It is necessary, therefore, to study it and at the same time to find out how this temperament manifests itself in each individual. Without this knowledge great mistakes cannot be avoided.

    2. It is necessary to gain the confidence of the melancholic person. This is not at all easy and can be done only by giving him a good example in everything and by manifesting an unselfish and sincere love for him. Like an unfolding bud opens to the sun, so the heart of the melancholic person opens to the sunshine of kindness and love.

    3. One must always encourage him. Rude reproach, harsh treatment, hardness of heart cast him down and paralyze his efforts. Friendly advice and patience with his slow actions give him courage and vigor. He will show himself very grateful for such kindness.

    4. It is well to keep him always busy, but do not overburden him with work.

    5. Because melancholics take everything to heart and are very sensitive, they are in great danger of weakening their nerves. It is necessary, therefore, to watch nervous troubles of those entrusted to one's care. Melancholics who suffer a nervous breakdown are in a very bad state and cannot recover very easily.

    6. In the training of a melancholic child, special care must be taken to be always kind and friendly, to encourage and keep him busy. The child, moreover, must be taught always to pronounce words properly, to use his five senses, and to cultivate piety. Special care must be observed in the punishment of the melancholic child, otherwise obstinacy and excessive reserve may result. Necessary punishment must be given with precaution and great kindness and the slightest appearance of injustice must be carefully avoided.



    To read about the other 3 personality types, see these pages:

    PhlegmaticSanguineCholeric
    Last edited by Aylen; 07-15-2015 at 02:30 AM.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    I would note that people with metabolic issues should probably disregard the comments on energy levels. For example, somebody with, say, hypothyroidism would have lower energy levels on average compared to somebody with a similar environment, personality characteristics, etc. that didn't have hypothyroidism. As a result, somebody could potentially confuse their self as to which temperament they actually belong to when healthy, thus confusing what type they believe their self to be.

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    i am irrational, governed by whims and moods where one flows into the next... i perceive reality as a constant state of flow. it's difficult for me to find motivation to do anything. i wait for inspiration or outside impetus. often it doesn't come, so i feel stagnant in torpid waters, unable to make them move. the ep temperament is a huge relief... people of activity with motivation... like the sun. they are the only way to escape inertia sometimes... they can start things easily and they can stop, but they still flow nicely, just much more effectively. really i feel useless most of the time. i don't have any energy or any will is how it often feels. i struggle through the work day to get myself to do stuff. i can barely get anything done at home. i haven't really found anything i can contribute to Eps other than perhaps my fascination which i don't show well. people probably think i dislike them when i'm fascinated. i'm not an easy nut to crack, so these things take time. and there might be little but poison underneath. honestly i see Ep types as the masters of the universe often, able to wield everything and able to influence and affect the world around them. even when they're depressed they still manage to be "worldly."

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