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Thread: Relating to others: ST-NF inputs and advices for each other

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    Default Relating to others: ST-NF inputs and advices for each other

    Title could be better. What I'm trying to get at is a very consistent pattern that is at play between how delta ST and NFs view relating to others differently and perhaps ultimately beneficially when they interact together.

    It's not perfect, and these are very generalized trends I'm trying to establish. It's not "original content" either, necessarily, but it's something I've derived from my own experiences, so I'm playing with it here...



    Relational Nature
    The NFs seem to have more of an inclination to overall relational optimism. Things can be maintained, people do have good intentions, things will work out. There is also a default to hold on to relationships as opposed to disregarding or discarding them.

    The STs seem to have more of an inclination to overall relational negativism. Things won't be maintained, peoplehave bad intentions, things won't work out. There is also a default to discard relationships or 'intimacy', particularly when there is relational stresses or inhibitors.


    Typical Trouble Spots in Relating to Others
    The NFs get into trouble when they are over-positive about things. They don't suspect malicious intentions of others, and, because they value their own sense of "rightness" and what is "good", they can act unwittingly to their own demise by making "right" decisions in their own mind, but not comprehend the implications in terms of power dynamics (or other things they don't necessarily value but exist in reality - such as certain aspects of sexuality, social status, etc ---- things beta, perhaps, would be extremely consciously aware of and make choices about)

    The STs get into trouble when they are over-negative about things. They over-suspect malicious intentions of others, and because of their suspicion and doubt of relationships, they can act unwittingly to their own demise by following their own doubts, or whatever is more comfortable in terms of their information and negative disposition towards others; they can create problems that aren't there, and become emotionally entranced in a negative state, seeing all data in a negative light. They disregard some of the other elements that betas might more consciously be aware of: the value of positive relations, social image, status, 'having friends', etc.


    Becoming Emotionally Agitated / Weakened
    NFs can become very analytical to a point of inaction, or, over emotional and convoluted to the point of being flustered - the former can lead to a depression-like state of inaction, the latter can be manipulated by others who provoke them into desired states of emotional tumult and then try to get certain results (a form of breaking emotional stability and then taking advantage of them, basically)

    STs can become very analytical to a point of inaction, perhaps more in regard to logistics and "what is feasible in reality" rather than in terms of "relationship complications" or "lack of future possibilities for change/growth" - attempts at trying to differentiate from NF motives/feelings. They can also become emotionally convoluted, but it seems to take a more negative/anti-social state of being -- an inclination to not want to deal with anyone or anything, or, perhaps, extreme anger - the former involves a feeling of uselessness or not being able to depend on anyone, and the latter a feeling of being able to 'attack' anyone, over-defensiveness. Both states can be manipulated by others who wish to seen to either turn the ST away from relations or provoke them into advantageous squabbles.



    How Delta NFs & Delta STs Benefit From Each Other
    NFs benefit from STs in that the point of personal compromise and "being taken advantage of" by someone else, to the point of material, physical, or 'personal power' well being, will never be allowed by an ST. The ST acts as a fail-proof in terms of things that are simply in-tolerable, and say when the NF is too far into positivity / naivety for its own good.

    STs benefit from NFs in that the point of relational compromise and "being too antisocial and brutish" to others, tot he point of relational, emotional, and social well being, will never be allowed by an NF. The NF acts as a fail-proof in terms of things that are simply intolerable, and say when the ST is too far into negativity / hopelessness / suspicion for its own good.

    How Delta NFs & Delta STs Reassure Each Other
    NFs are reassured by STs that their personal worth or value is there, even if they make tough relational decisions or make choices that they otherwise might not make because of not wanting to deal with Se and Ti matters. ST to NF: "You really shouldn't be treated this way", "This person really does not have good intentions for you", "You deserve better", or also, "You shouldn't feel weird about that situation because you acted the right way", "people like you for who you are, and you are a good person to them, that's why they respect you and value so".

    STs are reassured by NFs that their morality or value is there, even if they make tough relations decisions or make choices they otherwise might not make because of not wanting to deal with Fe and Ni matters. NF to ST: "Fighting like that isn't going to solve anything", "You really should spend time with / rebuild relations with", "It might be valuable to know / understand this person / why they are feeling that way", or also, "You shouldn't feel weird about that situation because you acted the right way (or because they actually aren't someone worth your time)", "People like you for who you are..." -- same as the delta NF, these last two, but they'd be coming from their respective ego block rationales....



    ...that is, what really seems to bring out Delta-ness is the way in which the NFs and STs give advice to each other. To put it in technical terms, when an ST is worrying about relational things, advice that comes from a standpoint of valuing Fi&Ne and strong in Fe&Ni (but not valued) seems most appealing, because it addresses those 'unpleasant things', such as Fe&Ni, but does it in a more 'appealing' way. *

    To give a personal example, when I recently got into sort of an argument about how to handle a social situation, I was told by a delta NF that my squabbling really isn't appealing - even though I have that urge, and maybe it's part of Fe role or whatever, to engage in being socially combative or try to make things a certain way. I wish I could capture the advice properly, but, it had to do with 'being liked' for not being that way. That is, someone who didn't try to manage himself by focusing so much on appearance of things in a social setting, someone who bedazzled himself towards others, etc. And that, not only is it ok I'm not that way, it's even appreciated - and that there are people who do want me to be that way because that's how they want people to be.

    I wonder what the NF version of that would be, perhaps an ST giving advice on how to not try to be all things to all people, or not having to feel a sense of being appealing or 'nice' to each others, and that they will still be respected and valued because they are realistic about their energy and emotional and physical limitations.


    I edited this some already, maybe I'll leave it at this for now.



    ---------FOOTNOTES
    * I speculate here that people who grew up getting advice in such situations from the perspective of other quadras' values' may have issues or a lot of questions about dealing with things. In my own personal experience, it is extremely rewarding to have advice come from your own quadra, as it is validating on a very personal and intimate level -- "It's ok for me to have these deep-seated personal inclinations (even ones that I don't know how to manage nor am fully aware of, perhaps)".
    Last edited by UDP; 05-25-2011 at 04:00 PM.

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    Interesting.
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    I really like your insights UDP.
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    I relate to that in my relationship to my husband.

    Back to UDP? I didnt' actually read this thread at first because I saw UDP and assumed it was really really old. Then I saw it's actuallly brand new and read it.
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    I agree with what you're getting at overall, but it applies to Beta NF-ST dynamics, Humanitarian and Pragmatics in general, as well IMO
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    i guess there are general trends. but i personally dont find seeing types as perfectly defined caricatures very helpful. light and dark, firm and soft, etc...meh. it all fits in nicely with those whole "duality" concept where people fit together like puzzle pieces though.

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    lol, i just realized, i think its kind of ironic...if you're ST and i'm NF but i think you're a lot more idealistic than i am.

    case in point, i think.

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    That was a pretty smooth read. I don't disagree with any of your explanations or observations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    They disregard some of the other elements that betas might more consciously be aware of: the value of positive relations, social image, status, 'having friends', etc.
    I don't think it's about being less aware, but about the level (and type) of importance being given to those things.

    I concur and relate to what you wrote as a whole.
    Last edited by Park; 05-26-2011 at 06:52 PM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    @ Ryene Astraelis:

    1. Did UDP assist you in making that new, nice, uncluttered, esthetically pleasing signature of yours?

    2. Do you like to cook?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    @ Ryene Astraelis:

    1. Did UDP assist you in making that new, nice, uncluttered, esthetically pleasing signature of yours?

    2. Do you like to cook?
    Um, only in having previously shown me how I could fix the Johari/Nohari links.

    Answer in the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Um, only in having previously shown me how I could fix the Johari/Nohari links.
    It was a joke, but thanks for the response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Answer in the thread.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    3. Now that IEE has 50% chance to be your type, will you marry me?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    + =
    I doubt I am human, too, sometimes. Never realized I was an ice cube though.

    This ST knew it all along, apparently.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    3. Now that IEE has 50% chance to be your type, will you marry me?
    Should I take this seriously? (o.0 )
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    LOL CILi. Your rebus failed because I fail at Ne, obviously.

    @Ryene: Yes.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    @Ryene: Yes.
    All other objections aside, we barely know each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    All other objections aside, we barely know each other.
    Hmm, I guess you have a point there. Let's get to know each other. I'm a 24 year old male, Caucasian, nonreligious, non-smoking, non-drinking, 5 ft 11, well groomed, occasional goatee, hazel eyes and brown hair. My hobbies are playing music, cycling, designing things, cooking, watching tv and being lazy. My favorite book is... wait, I don't have one. I am looking for a mulatto companion to share my bed, interests, food, and a couple of other less important things with. What else do you need to know?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    I still barely know you, and as mentioned, there are other objections. I won't be marrying anyone any time soon, if ever; and no, it's not negotiable.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    This, perchance, one of those "No" means "Yes" things?
    I dub thee Mr Collins.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    i guess there are general trends. but i personally dont find seeing types as perfectly defined caricatures very helpful. light and dark, firm and soft, etc...meh. it all fits in nicely with those whole "duality" concept where people fit together like puzzle pieces though.
    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    lol, i just realized, i think its kind of ironic...if you're ST and i'm NF but i think you're a lot more idealistic than i am.

    case in point, i think.
    Your idealism is being emo about socionics and shrugging off serious discussion into putting yourself above obvious petty stereotypes.

    ~ http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...etzscheWannabe

    You're not interested in understanding, but more so in the sense of gratification from taking triumphs in 'outsmarting' the most simplistic interpretation of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    Hmm, I guess you have a point there. Let's get to know each other. I'm a 24 year old male, Caucasian, nonreligious, non-smoking, non-drinking, 5 ft 11, well groomed, occasional goatee, hazel eyes and brown hair. My hobbies are playing music, cycling, designing things, cooking, watching tv and being lazy. My favorite book is... wait, I don't have one. I am looking for a mulatto companion to share my bed, interests, food, and a couple of other less important things with. What else do you need to know?
    That's interesting, all three of the Te-SLIs I know are around 5'10-11" and love cycling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    Actually, I was referring to the scene where he proposes to Lizzie and attributes her repeated refusals to anything but her not wanting to marry him. I wasn't calling you a pompous, empty-headed suck-up.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    That's interesting, all three of the Te-SLIs I know are around 5'10-11" and love cycling.
    Add three SLIs for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post



    Your idealism is being emo about socionics and shrugging off serious discussion into putting yourself above obvious petty stereotypes.

    ~ http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...etzscheWannabe

    You're not interested in understanding, but more so in the sense of gratification from taking triumphs in 'outsmarting' the most simplistic interpretation of things.
    its probably difficult to see the validity in putting yourself above stereotypes and facing complexity when you use the concept of complementary information processing as a tool for projecting your anima.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I still barely know you, and as mentioned, there are other objections. I won't be marrying anyone any time soon, if ever; and no, it's not negotiable.
    I'm glad you liked my description. Ok, now lets discuss our plans. What kind of wedding would you prefer? Big or small? Formal or informal? Church or beach? Loud or quiet? Many or few guests?
    Last edited by Park; 05-28-2011 at 04:06 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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