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Thread: I can hardly stand ENTjs right now

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    Default I can hardly stand ENTjs right now

    Help me see your good side, eh?
    My life's work (haha):
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    I'm not sure what this thread hopes to accomplish.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    The first google image result for "LIEs' good side:"



    Make of this image what you will.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    If this is about LIEs in the other thread I don't think this approach will be very helpful for you... if this is about real life LIEs please disregard this message.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

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    Thanks to pianosinger and her thread for helping to confirm the commonality of a behavior I've noted in a number of other supposed IEEs: alluding to unnamed villains before an audience after being thwarted in debate. Perhaps socionics is for real after all.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Thanks to pianosinger and her thread for helping to confirm the commonality of a behavior I've noted in a number of other supposed IEEs: alluding to unnamed villains before an audience after being thwarted in debate. Perhaps socionics is for real after all.
    I posted a thread where I complained about IEEs doing that once. It was part of my socionics exegesis of "Psalm 23" by India.Arie. I'm glad someone besides me finds the IEE tendency to talk about "unnamed assailants" irritating. Or maybe it's not an IEE tendency.

    That said, I don't see much wrong with this thread, unless it is about specific people in another thread.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Help me see your good side, eh?
    Go read Jack London.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    My good side is my front side, I guess. Back side shows little except my ass.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Back side shows little except my ass.
    Some might say that is your good side.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    I posted a thread where I complained about IEEs doing that once. It was part of my socionics exegesis of "Psalm 23" by India.Arie. I'm glad someone besides me finds the IEE tendency to talk about "unnamed assailants" irritating. Or maybe it's not an IEE tendency.
    A link to that would be appreciated for comparison. I've noted this behavior as a pervasive pattern in other (but not all) supposed IEEs, including the woman who was my worst girlfriend ever. When rhetorically cornered during an argument her first reflex was to stage a public melodrama. She'd externalize a unilateral, ambiguous image selectively freighted with emotional ballast, wailing wrathfully before uninvolved parties in a venue where she knew I was unlikely to continue private discussion. Her complaints during these performances only bore tangentially on our conflicts, but she knew full well that my knowledge of her true meaning was equal to her chosen audience's ignorance. And that un-knowingness is naturally what she sought to exploit. Although she was never able to "win" our arguments with these silly attempts at public shaming, projecting her guilty errancy onto me provided her with a therapeutically satisfying means of saving face after being outmaneuvered. Within the scope of socionics our inability to disagree generally stemmed from clashing irrational function polarities. And of course this is an extreme example (because that bitch was buck nuts).

    Similar tactics have been employed by other IEEs with whom I've disagreed on personal matters. While trying to walk them back through their rationales they've almost always claimed it as an essential right and have seen nothing shady in their actions or motivations. This has remained the case even when they've behaved flagrantly, with third-party witnesses on hand to observe the original disputes preceding the obfuscatory dramatics. Though a correlation to subtype may exist, I don't view this as a universal or unique IEE trait, though it is certainly one habituated through successful use. And its frequency of employment and depth of internalization are rooted in general intelligence, self awareness, and mental health.

    That said, I don't see much wrong with this thread, unless it is about specific people in another thread.
    Well, guess what. Thanks, though, for bringing a reminder of utilitarian viewpoints, as my inclination to examine the pragmatic first also means it's sometimes the only and last.

    Addendum: I should be charitable and add that pianosinger probably isn't trying to be especially sneaky here, though this thread certainly did call to mind what I outlined above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    If this is about LIEs in the other thread I don't think this approach will be very helpful for you... if this is about real life LIEs please disregard this message.
    Some of both. My brother-in-law and my father are both LIEs, and after dealing with a couple in-- yes-- "the other thread," all it's done for me is stir up already-muddy water.

    Current (totally uncharitable) picture of LIEs at the moment:

    Loud
    Impatient
    Opinionated
    Intolerant
    Inconsiderate
    Tactless
    Insulting
    Wholly incapable of admitting to being "wrong"

    And worst of all, dealing with them apparently makes me inclined to become...

    Loud
    Impatient
    Opinionated
    Intolerant
    Inconsiderate
    Tactless
    Insulting
    Wholly incapable of admitting to being "wrong"

    It's no wonder, I guess, that they happen to be my Beneficiaries, since I find practically no benefit from interacting with them.
    My life's work (haha):
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Some of both. My brother-in-law and my father are both LIEs, and after dealing with a couple in-- yes-- "the other thread," all it's done for me is stir up already-muddy water.

    Current (totally uncharitable) picture of LIEs at the moment:

    Loud
    Impatient
    Opinionated
    Intolerant
    Inconsiderate
    Tactless
    Insulting
    Wholly incapable of admitting to being "wrong"

    And worst of all, dealing with them apparently makes me inclined to become...

    Loud
    Impatient
    Opinionated
    Intolerant
    Inconsiderate
    Tactless
    Insulting
    Wholly incapable of admitting to being "wrong"

    It's no wonder, I guess, that they happen to be my Beneficiaries, since I find practically no benefit from interacting with them.
    Lol, it's funny. You're being overemotional...yes we do have most of these bad characteristics, but you did say something completely stupid, I'm sorry. It's not something related to our incapability of being "wrong" (which I honestly believe ENTjs possess - I'd say it's the only point I disagree with in your list).
    BTW, I have some ENFp friends and I have a lot of fun with them...I believe you're making another logical mistake here, an excessively extensive inference. I suggest you to leave this matter alone.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    Any idea how they benefit from interacting with you?
    Probably not much. Though, I do think I have brought up some interesting points in the past with RL LIEs that they seem to enjoy picking apart and interjecting their own opinions. They seem to enjoy it, anyway. I can only sit back and listen (or not) in these cases, though; because if I try to share any thoughts that differ from theirs, I am immediately shot down. So, I'll start discussions, and then let others in the room finish them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Lol, it's funny. You're being overemotional....
    Of course I was being overemotional. I was really being serious when I expressed my desire to see the good side of LIEs.
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    We don't respond to these kind of emotional pressures, though. We're not IxTx types, born to stand a certain amount of stormy emotions from their duals. So, desire rejected.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    We don't respond to these kind of emotional pressures, though. We're not IxTx types, born to stand a certain amount of stormy emotions from their duals. So, desire rejected.
    And, I half-expected that...Maybe someone who is not LIE could help me out...ha.
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    entjs are cute and harmless.

    and they will admit to being wrong if they think you are also cute cause they're dumb logical types
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Go read Jack London.
    Fuck yeah.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Don't think reading will help, as in reading his novels, it's only a tiny portion about this guy and we're talking about a guy who was active on 3 continents, and what is even more funnier (?), is I doubt many LIEs on here will find an identical in him.

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    Well I definitely identify with some characters he portrays in his novels. I guess Martin Eden is the one I like the most.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    For what it's worth, pianosinger, I admire that you were willing to voice your beliefs, even if they aren't very popular. If I were going to talk about something like that, this forum would not be my first choice.

    I don't know any confirmed LIEs, so I can't help you see their good points, but I'm sorry you're having trouble with them. I know what it's like to be around people who invalidate one's views, and it sucks.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well I definitely identify with some characters he portrays in his novels. I guess Martin Eden is the one I like the most.
    Alright, I was talking about Jack London, a guy who wrote under many aliases during his political activity in U.S., Australia and U.K., a guy who actually fits gamma quadra description (at least one line of it), and not some stereotypical money, free market, monkeys, depiction on wikisocion, written in some domain, which I take is to be taken more humourously than seriously.

    Anyway, do you consider yourself an individualist FDG ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Anyway, do you consider yourself an individualist FDG ?
    I probably fit this description, yes. I guess if I try to introspect, I wouldn't think that individualism is necessarily a good philosophical choice. Yet when I analyze my own gut decisions, they do fit its framework, so it's likely inescapable.

    I don't know any confirmed LIEs, so I can't help you see their good points, but I'm sorry you're having trouble with them. I know what it's like to be around people who invalidate one's views, and it sucks.
    That's not really type related, though, and I do believe her approach won't help. Although, I can't give sympathy or empathy for her position, which I guess can be rather limiting.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I probably fit this description, yes. I guess if I try to introspect, I wouldn't think that individualism is necessarily a good philosophical choice. Yet when I analyze my own gut decisions, they do fit its framework, so it's likely inescapable.
    Didn't ask whether you fit some description or not I, myself, found two LSE descriptions to be fitting like a glove among many that don't. I asked do you consider yourself an individualist ?

    I asked this particular question many self-typed gammas and it is the only reason I'm asking you right now.

    You do. Thanks for your time

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That's not really type related, though, and I do believe her approach won't help. Although, I can't give sympathy or empathy for her position, which I guess can be rather limiting.
    Sure, LIEs aren't the only ones who do that. I didn't intend for my reply to come across that way.

    What approach do you see her taking, and why do you think it won't help anything?
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    You should round them up in concentration camps and gas them all to death. That is the only way to properly deal with them, for they have no good side. (you will have to get an ENFj to do this though)

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    How to see an LIE's good side: hand them a Benjamin. They'll light right up. Then they'll ask you for another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Probably not much. Though, I do think I have brought up some interesting points in the past with RL LIEs that they seem to enjoy picking apart and interjecting their own opinions. They seem to enjoy it, anyway. I can only sit back and listen (or not) in these cases, though; because if I try to share any thoughts that differ from theirs, I am immediately shot down. So, I'll start discussions, and then let others in the room finish them.
    sure you're not dealing with a Beta ST?
    I've known quite a few LIE's in my life and I never saw them as closed-off like this, they've come across as more inquisitive than anything. I knew one in particular who would be almost intrusive about getting peoples opinions out of them, I guess it might have to do with Fi seeking in wanting to know where the other person stands and how authentic they're being towards those views...?
    EII INFj
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Thanks to pianosinger and her thread for helping to confirm the commonality of a behavior I've noted in a number of other supposed IEEs: alluding to unnamed villains before an audience after being thwarted in debate. Perhaps socionics is for real after all.
    You are much too awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I've always thought Jack London—the man, not the persona—was more LSE > LIE. I think the Socionists were alluding to the persona and not the man.
    Haha, that's quite interesting, never thought of this this way, although I'm not convinced. Anyway, I'm outta here before this turns into blahblah.

    That tends to be the case with most of the type figureheads, which is why they should never be read into literally.
    Yea, some typings are weird, as in, stereotypical typings where you find alleged duals or semi-duals hating each other or worse.

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    I haven't really cared much for Jack London's books...no opinion about his type.

    Wholly incapable of admitting to being "wrong"
    I've been thinking about this, and after FDG's disagreement, I've realized it's not so much that LIEs can't admit to being wrong...But, they certainly don't seem to take well to other people telling them that they're wrong.

    So I've thought of one good thing I appreciate about LIEs. When I want an "expert" opinion on something that I know they're knowledgeable about, I do appreciate their input and helping me to understand difficult concepts without inserting too much Ti into their explanations. I do not, however, like the way they sometimes try to force their way of thinking. I want information from them, not a lecture.
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    From a gamma NT perspective, IEEs can be difficult to engage in dialogue because they often fail to understand objective data and causal links as we present them (and by objective I mean, "concerning a thing in itself as it appears, decoupled from emotional/ethical coloration,"1 not this vulgarized connotation of "absolutely true facts about stuff" that people cling to). Instead the IEE can easily latch onto seemingly insignificant points, make paranoid assumptions about others' motivations, misconstrue dynamics or mechanics, take the impersonal personally, get hung up on literalism, and/or fail to realistically extrapolate current trends into the future.2 This is obviously an Ni/Ne clash as well as one of ego/super-id Te, with expectations running contrariwise and well-considered opinions facing undue skepticism.

    When these communicative incoherencies occur the gamma NT reaction is generally to increase the depth and detail of logical explanation while the IEE often becomes sarcastic or engages in other forms of emotional derailment that drag a conversation away from matter-of-fact and into matter-of-feeling (and at this stage I've frequently been accused of being patronizing when I've simplified my illustrations...IEEs ,lol3). This mutually disjunctive pattern of trading in "useless" information can easily become self-reinforcing until further conversation is hopelessly bogged down, with the IEE dismissing the gamma NT (or LIE if you want to maintain focus solely on them) as a crass and willful brute, and the latter regarding the former as an intractably alogical and dogmatic airhead.

    Again, not a universal IEE-LIE (or IEE-gamma NT) pattern, but one I've observed and participated in repeatedly. And what makes it especially curious is that the divisions between the deliberate and unconscious aren't always apparent (i.e. I try to give y'all the benefit of the doubt), though their admixture certainly is.

    Since this is rather negative (and we are speaking of problems here, not high points) I'll add that the IEEs I've known are generally witty people with a good literary sense who exhibit a tart sense of humor I find very amusing in its "that's so obvious, you're so dumb" way. Plus, outstanding pussy. Thumbs up.

    1 As an example, imagine walking into a room where a handgun lies upon a table. Is your first thought:
    • "pistol, black, Beretta 92 --- is it loaded and why is it here?"
    • "pistol, black, murder instrument --- what or who has it killed and why?"

    2 Ah, memories:
    IEE: Do you think my ass is getting too big?
    Me: ...
    IEE: Seriously, tell me.
    Me: Well, if that's a concern we could start jogging together. I wouldn't mind working out more. (thinking: working toward improved health is good in itself, no? and together = more better)
    IEE: ...asshole.


    3 Recalling the drama-bomb IEE girlfriend I spoke of before, when she and I weren't entangled in epic fucking we were embroiled in epic fighting. There was almost absolutely no middle ground. And though I've been erotically drawn to other IEEs we've also tended to argue time and time and time again, with frequency and severity increasing with familiarity. When my relations with them end, whether said bond is simply friendly or more-than, they usually do so explosively rather than fading out as with most other women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    We don't respond to these kind of emotional pressures, though. We're not IxTx types, born to stand a certain amount of stormy emotions from their duals. So, desire rejected.
    I would say this is another inherent flaw of LIEs.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamajama View Post
    I would say this is another inherent flaw of LIEs.
    Yes, probably, although it's more situational. Basically it makes us incompatible with some people, I guess we just have to deal with it. OTOH, being loud, crass, tactless, insulting affect others in a more direct way, even if they're unwilling.

    they certainly don't seem to take well to other people telling them that they're wrong.
    Well, the real problem with this debate now is that we don't know if these LIEs were actually wrong or not. Sure thing, for example, I didn't feel like I was saying anything wrong in the previous topic, while you probably did think so. Thus the root of the problem is different from a character flaw.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  37. #37
    Saoshyant's Avatar
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    Seems to me you are describing LSE's moreso than LIE's. Ashton differentiated the differences pretty well in the post above.
    /

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    For the most part they are good - in terms of business/military non interpersonal life. They mean very well and are straight up with what they say.

    An ENFP however.

  39. #39
    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Yet to meet an ENTj that I would have problems with. I don't have close friends that are ENTj though, but the ones I met seems like cool people.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
    The Ineffable IEI
    The Einstein ENTp

    johari nohari
    http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/

  40. #40
    Self banned bionic's Avatar
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    I'm curious... it seems as though your frustrations rest more upon your brother and father than it does with the type. So I think you're using your own experience with them and projecting that onto the type as a whole. Which only causes friction... and fallacies.

    Could you please describe a situation between your brother and father that upset you? Perhaps it would be more effective to analyze the situation and find solutions to help you deal with them more easier.

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