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    Sir Knight's Avatar
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    While I haven't gotten to the books yet, a friend and I just spent a late evening going-on early morning watching all the episodes and, dude, holy shit.

    So, the only characters whose types I am reasonably certain of are:

    Robert Baratheon: EIE



    Once an extremely potent warrior, who led the kingdoms in revolt against the Mad King, now just a sad, fat old man. Clearly traumatized by both the rebellion and the loss of his beloved, he uses the office of the king to do whatever the hell he wants: wenching, hunting, drinking... all seemingly to try and recapture some of his former glory and to fill the void in his life.

    Very conscious of threats to his reign and is entirely willing to do even the most deplorable shit (like ordering the assassination of a thirteen year old girl and her unborn child) in order to keep his kingdom secure.

    Eddard Stark: LSI



    Stern, stable, and very, very principled. Operates completely in the open and despises secrecy and the spy-games in the capital. Very loyal and obedient to his friends, is willing to follow orders he knows are going to cause him no end in grief (like splitting up his family and moving to the capital to be Robert's Hand).
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    IDK about Robert, although knowing this forum, I guess he'll get typed SEE or something just because he's a fat drunkard of a king. Extrovert is how far I'd go.

    Eddard Stark is ESI, IMO. Makes an especially nice (socionics-wise) contrast with Stannis, who is as stereotypically LSI as you'll ever get. I can provide you with examples if you don't fear spoilers.

    Catelyn is probably LSE. Clearly a rational, most likely a sensor. And while all about duty, we know how short-sighted it turns out to be. Lysa is too far from sane to type.

    Arya is Se-dominant (possibly SEE), as is Jaime (SLE). Cersei I'd call EIE, but without much certainty. Sansa is probably EII, either supervised by, or conflicting with Arya. I thought of her as SEI for a while, but it doesn't go with Catelyn and Cersei, although in some ways makes more sense.

    Jon I'm not sure about, but I'm leaning ILI-Te. Or maybe I just want Ygritte to be his SEE dual. Either that or LIE. Not sure about Tyrion, that's a tentative LIE > ILI.

    Dany I dare not type, lest a dragon be awoken . Viserys joins Lysa in mentally unstable camp.

    I'm speaking books by the way... far superior, both in terms of overall quality and typing characters - we get a rare in-depth view of the thoughts of many characters, instead of just judging their behaviours, like with other books.

    I'm going to post some quotations in my next post, up to book 4. (Alright, even Ni has limitations. I can't *quote* what's in book 5, even if I might have a vague idea of what to expect.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I'm going to post some quotations in my next post, up to book 4. (Alright, even Ni has limitations. I can't *quote* what's in book 5, even if I might have a vague idea of what to expect.)
    Mistyped! MISTYPED!!!!

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    I agree with pretty much all of Aiss's typings, sans a few.

    Robert is a blatant LSI-Se, has the semi-charming brashness and socio-political stupidity far compensated for by Cersei, an archetypal EIE-Fe 3w4 (same role in 300).

    I think Fe-IEI for Arya, probably some sx 4w3. The defiant individualism gets her in trouble, but doesn't grate on Eddard too much (Fi-ESI), as he understands where the hierarchy ends and personal values begin.

    Jon is IEI-Ni 4w5. The jaded bastard son who smoulders in anticipation of earning his phalluc right, gets the only 'white' wolf pup, protects the vulnerable.

    I figured some Ni-EJ for Tyrion; his composure and emphasis on social interplay as the main power tool, along with the grotesque revelry, seems more indicative of EIE than LIE.

    Daenerys is IEI-Ni 4w3 sp/so. Blatant aristocratic tendencies, i.e. maneuvering to win Khal's affection – quite a stretch from their first 'interaction.' Khal is SLE-Se 8w7 sx/sp. "The Dragon" (lmao) is an Ni-EIE 3w4 sx/so... kind of a twisted version of the golden boy archetype, devolved into misogynistic power-tripping, etc. (the "crown" was epic lol...). I'd say Jorah is an LIE-Te, maintains loyalty only to the point that principle is violated, and for the most part is a neutral strategist. Robb strikes me as ILI-Te, also.

    The plot overall seems to depict a gamma transition into a projected delta underworld, occasionally catalyzed and subverted by the power plays of remaining betas. The 'game' is ceaseless, but the protagonist is clearly a fighter for honor, blindly I might add.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Robert is a blatant LSI-Se, has the semi-charming brashness and socio-political stupidity far compensated for by Cersei, an archetypal EIE-Fe 3w4 (same role in 300).
    ... what? Dualz?

    Okay, I'll need to rethink that. Seriously.

    I think Fe-IEI for Arya, probably some sx 4w3. The defiant individualism gets her in trouble, but doesn't grate on Eddard too much (Fi-ESI), as he understands where the hierarchy ends and personal values begin.
    How could you possibly see Arya as IEI is beyond me, for the real. She's like, the least likely person in the world, real or fictional, to be typed an introvert. Or an intuitive, in fact. Everything about her screams Se-base to me... where she learns and grows is putting things into perspective (Harrenhal, where she realizes her three deaths were wasted, being the most obvious example). That is what she needs. Her POV is full of focus on the here-and-know in a maybe overdone, but inaccessible to Ni way. She doesn't seek Se, having it in abundance, she needs Ni.

    Jon is IEI-Ni 4w5. The jaded bastard son who smoulders in anticipation of earning his phalluc right, gets the only 'white' wolf pup, protects the vulnerable.
    I kind of doubt it. Reading his POV, Fe is the last thing that comes to mind. But then again, from your comment, I wonder if you've even read the books, or are just typing the actors. I can't deny that anger plays a major part in Jon's thought, at least initially... but being angry and being Fe isn't the same thing.

    I figured some Ni-EJ for Tyrion; his composure and emphasis on social interplay as the main power tool, along with the grotesque revelry, seems more indicative of EIE than LIE.
    That's an interesting suggestion. Plus, Jon *did* admire him even though Tyrion was a Lannister...

    Daenerys is IEI-Ni 4w3 sp/so. Blatant aristocratic tendencies, i.e. maneuvering to win Khal's affection – quite a stretch from their first 'interaction.' Khal is SLE-Se 8w7 sx/sp. "The Dragon" (lmao) is an Ni-EIE 3w4 sx/so... kind of a twisted version of the golden boy archetype, devolved into misogynistic power-tripping, etc. (the "crown" was epic lol...).
    Yeah, I guess it is a stretch. Although their first 'interaction' you mention was slightly misrepresented in the movie.

    But for the record, I don't mind IEI for the time being. I mean, she's hard to type and that one at least makes some sense. Kind of nothing-else-works sort of typing, though.

    I'd say Jorah is an LIE-Te, maintains loyalty only to the point that principle is violated, and for the most part is a neutral strategist. Robb strikes me as ILI-Te, also.
    IDK about Jorah, but if Robb is ILI, I'd need to retype every other ILI.

    J/k, but that's really a funny suggestion, especially when you call Jon Fe.

    The plot overall seems to depict a gamma transition into a projected delta underworld, occasionally catalyzed and subverted by the power plays of remaining betas. The 'game' is ceaseless, but the protagonist is clearly a fighter for honor, blindly I might add.
    The overall plot is Gamma as fuck. <3

    Seriously though, loving or hating it isn't type related. I don't think you can simplify it as you do, however. For one, who is the 'protagonist' according to you?

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    Ha the only people I know who watch this are Betas and Gammas. I fffloved the first 2 episodes but then it got a bit dull. Have to catch up soon. Don't know about the types, really. All I know is that Arya is kickass and I would be attracted to Jon Snow's personality. I think IEI is a good fit for him. Cersei is a cuh crazy bitch... do all of them have to be EIE?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    ... what? Dualz?

    Okay, I'll need to rethink that. Seriously.
    eh, I haven't read the book, but there's a strain of formal, distant endearment I've noticed a few times in their dynamic ("...what do you think holds things together?" "...our relationship?" etc.). I just don't see any other types working for either of them.

    How could you possibly see Arya as IEI is beyond me, for the real. She's like, the least likely person in the world, real or fictional, to be typed an introvert. Or an intuitive, in fact. Everything about her screams Se-base to me... where she learns and grows is putting things into perspective (Harrenhal, where she realizes her three deaths were wasted, being the most obvious example). That is what she needs. Her POV is full of focus on the here-and-know in a maybe overdone, but inaccessible to Ni way. She doesn't seek Se, having it in abundance, she needs Ni.
    Overall, her expression struck me more as that of a beta NF attempting Se (i.e. overcompensating in conveying her frustration with the lannister's son, wanting to 'prove' her mettle via the sword, etc.) than that of a gamma SF. Though I could see SEE making some sense.

    I kind of doubt it. Reading his POV, Fe is the last thing that comes to mind. But then again, from your comment, I wonder if you've even read the books, or are just typing the actors. I can't deny that anger plays a major part in Jon's thought, at least initially... but being angry and being Fe isn't the same thing.
    Well, post some quotes, because this thread was started in reference to the show. The fact that the character seems IEI to me has little to do with his being 'angry,' which in the context of an Ni-sub 4w5 hardly comes across as distinctly "Fe."

    That's an interesting suggestion. Plus, Jon *did* admire him even though Tyrion was a Lannister...
    Jon as an ILI-Ni and Tyrion as EIE-Ni could make some sense. Not sure what admiration you're referring to, but there is the mutually-defective connection there.

    IDK about Jorah, but if Robb is ILI, I'd need to retype every other ILI.

    J/k, but that's really a funny suggestion, especially when you call Jon Fe.
    So, how about posting at the very least a typing of him, instead of using your literary infatuation to set up false pedestals of entitlement.

    Seriously though, loving or hating it isn't type related. I don't think you can simplify it as you do, however. For one, who is the 'protagonist' according to you?
    Who said anything about loving or hating? I was referring to Stark, as one of the protagonists in the show (being of the family it starts from).
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Now that I'm fifty pages into the first book, some thoughts:

    I feel that Robert is most likely ExE. He vomits Fe expressivity (especially in the feast scene) and is always trying to get a rise out of Ned, and the entire crypt scene is basically him externalizing his feelings about the events of the war. The problem is that I get a lot of Ni vibes (for whatever that's worth) from his monologues but his constant pursuit of and bawdy descriptions of sensory pleasures seem more Si to me (Though that may just be because I don't understand Si).

    Dany is more than likely IEI and I think Aiss is dead-on labelling Jon as ILI. Their POVs both read very similarly, with them passively watching and noticing and suspecting the people in their company and noticing the trends and possible outcomes of their interacting with them without either of them really interacting with anyone. Very heady. Very Ni.

    Ned is most likely ESI. He doesn't respond to Robert's prodding at all and, rather than get swept up in the party-atmosphere at the feast like Robert does, he instead just stays very formal and straightforward and seems for all the world to just want to get away.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    Lol Ice & Fire noobs.


    Eddard is LSE.

    Catelyn is ESI.

    Jaime is LSI.

    Syrio Forel is ILE.

    Cersei is EIE.

    Robert Baratheon is IEE (obvious activity between he and Eddard) SEE, and it's benefit that makes more sense.

    Tyrion is LIE. IEE.

    Arya is ILI.

    Bran is IDK. SLI maybe.

    Sansa is SEE.

    Joffrey is not good for typing. SLE or something... maybe...

    Littlefinger is IEI.

    Khal Drogo is SLE.

    Daenerys is LSI. ESI, most likely. LSI still possible.

    Tywin is LII.

    Jon Snow is SLI.

    Viserys is EIE.
    Last edited by discojoe; 05-26-2011 at 02:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Lol Ice & Fire noobs.
    Hwa?

    Robert NeFi over FeNi? Sansa a Se-base? Jon Snow supervising Tyrion? Arya an Introvert, and not even in the same quadra as Jon? Dany and Drogo are mirrors?

    These are some weird-ass typing discojoe. Care to elaborate?
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    Don't feel like proofreading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Hwa?

    Robert NeFi over FeNi? Sansa a Se-base? Jon Snow supervising Tyrion? Arya an Introvert, and not even in the same quadra as Jon? Dany and Drogo are mirrors?

    These are some weird-ass typing discojoe. Care to elaborate?
    Ahh, I didn't mean to type Robert as IEE. I thought about it for a while and decided he was SEE, but I guess I forgot the change it. Everything he ever says is Fi. He basically just gauges his relationships with people and says little else. Everything he says and does is about how he regards that person, and he's always got some bullshit Fi reason for it. Everything he does annoys me. He just rolls around in random directions with no apparent thought or rationale to anything he does. He goes to Eddard because he's LSE and has the Te that he subconsciously knows he needs. When he flips out at Eddard for opposing his plan to kill Daenerys, it's because he's expecting Ni from his beneficiary, who refuses to acknowledge the long term strategic implications of allowing Daenerys to live, favoring a steadfast, "no compromises" LSE tunnel vision approach.

    Robert's Se is obvious.


    For Sansa, I chose SEE because:

    1. She has no problem with confrontation. She'll even yell at the queen. But she is more mindful of Fe than Arya and tones it down, knowing that simply flipping her lid will lead to problems. She can make these nasty little Fi jabs at people, like when she said, "Wait a minute, I just realized that I don't care" after asking her nurse to tell her about her childhood. That's Se+Fi.
    2. Like Robert, her focus is on her relationships with people and her feelings toward them. Throughout the entire series, we hear nothing but her sentiments toward so-and-so, how they're nasty and awful. It's not just the author implying it; it's descriptions of what is occurring in her head.
    3. She's mindful of and aware of Fe, but does not participate in it.
    4. She does not deliberate on the logic of her decisions. Everything she does is based on her immediate sentiments. This is why I object to ESI, since that type is insecure about the coherence of their thinking and doing.



    For Arya, it's ILI because:

    Arya doesn't give a balls about Fe. She just blurts out whatever she thinks at whoever she thinks it of, and is absolutely unapologetic and stubborn about it. And she does all this in this venomous, attacking way that is more closely related to Gamma than Delta. niffweed does the same thing, shelling you with these incredibly harsh Fi bombs and refusing to even acknowledge that he's being an awkward asshole.

    Her Ni and Te are obvious throughout the series as she intelligently makes her decisions based on the most sound, economical, and farsighted thinking. Even the act of shooing away her dire wolf, knowing what would happen if she were to stay, was Ni and Te. It may seem like an obvious thing to do, but it really isn't. Eddard probably wouldn't have done it in her place.

    As far as introversion and extroversion go, I think that's a dichotomy that's only useful maybe 30% of the time. It's really not apparent with most people.


    Jon Snow as SLI makes the most sense. There's no Fe at all, but it he ignores it in a more composed way, shunning and ignoring Se. But you also don't get the sense that he's weak in it. He can unleash pretty confident Se displays when pressed into physical situations. Arya never seems to have Se, for example; there's always a kind of anger and insecurity about fighting that persists throughout the series. Snow's the opposite, viewing Se in this morose manner, almost internally sighing when he feels like it's necessary.

    Look at the way he takes on Samwell. An LSI would probably backhand him and limit him to menial tasks (it's what I would do, lol). But Snow, who first objects on Te grounds, takes him as a friend and focuses on his positive aspects. He's a quiet friend whose focus is clearly on Fi.

    As for supervising Tyrion, I actually amend my typing of Tyrion. I was torn between be IEE and LIE for him, but now I think IEE. He's too concerned with comforts and camaraderie, and not at all awkward about moral issues. He clearly, confidently, and consistently makes sarcastic comments about the ethical nature of comments made by others. LIEs may try to say things like this, but it always feels fragile and they back down easily if pressed. Tyrion is cold and confident in this regard. He's also strongly possesses that condescending Fe demonstrative aura, but ignore that because I don't feel like elaborating. He seems to have strong and valued Ne, going about from place to place with no greater goal in mind other than to experience novelty. Ti PoLR isn't really super evident, and that's probably why I like him, but he definitely doesn't use it either. This is all disjointed, but my goal isn't really to convince anyone that Tyrion is IEE. I'm just sort of talking out loud.

    So yeah, if you watch the first meeting between Jon and Tyrion, there's duality. They both sort of don't know what to make of each other at first, but the psychological distance closes almost immediately and a clear respect and chemistry develops.

    And another thing I wanted to mention about Jon's type is the way he reacted when Tyrion called him a bastard. People will shoot me in the kneecaps for this, but I think types with strong, used Si have a often show a certain way of reacting to repulsion at other people. They show a clear demonstration of physical discomfort and disgust. My dad does it all the time. Anyway, for an example, watch the video at the bottom of the post. It's not just a generic look of "I hate you." It's actual physical sickness, like a rotten smell passing through the air. Some non-Si user people will read this and say that they do that too, but they don't. It's totally different.


    Khal Drogo is obviously SLE. Not even going to bother elaborating.


    As far as Daenerys's type, well she's clearly IJ. Stiff, collected, dry, etc. Whatever. And she's got the aura of Si demonstrative, this underlying uber hotness. I've got it, Diana's got it, Allie's got it... Anyway, Se creative comes through in the way she functions. Se creatives are very mobile, meaning they just jump up and do something that needs to be done. Look at Gandalf; when it becomes clear to him what must be done, he just ups and goes off and does it. Daenerys is like that, with growing confidence as the story progresses. She gets a Base function reaction, then BOOM Se fires off and goes to serve the Base. BOOM HEADSHOT.

    One argument in favor of ESI is the bedroom scene in which she effectively dominates Drogo. When she told him what she wanted, he was caught off guard, but couldn't think of a reason to say no. So yeah, ESI might make more sense.



    Disgusted Si:


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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Lol Ice & Fire noobs.
    I agree, DJ, you're the king and queen of noobs. They can't possibly measure up to your noobiness. Since, you know, most of them seem to realize there's more to the story than a show with ridiculous made up scenes added and stuff.

    Sansa as Se-dominant? The most characteristic thing about her is that she has little to none grasp on reality... she expects the world to fit her dreams, wants everything to just be nice and pretty, doesn't care much about anything else. Only after going through a lot of shit does she start to wake up. Sansa and Arya are contrasted as nice and rough, comfort-seeking vs adventure-seeking, obedient and obstinate. That makes zero sense for SEE and ILI.

    Some spoilers of Sansa's POV especially for you... and everyone else who entertains the notion of her as Se-dominant.

    “And where is Arya this morning?”

    “She wasn’t hungry,” Sansa said, knowing full well that her sister had probably stolen down to the kitchen hours ago and wheedled a breakfast out of some cook’s boy.

    “Do remind her to dress nicely today. The grey velvet, perhaps. We are all invited to ride with the queen and Princess Myrcella in the royal wheelhouse, and we must look our best.”

    Sansa already looked her best. She had brushed out her long auburn hair until it shone, and picked her nicest blue silks. She had been looking forward to today for more than a week. It was a great honor to ride with the queen, and besides, Prince Joffrey might be there. Her betrothed. Just thinking it made her feel a strange fluttering inside, even though they were not to marry for years and years. Sansa did not really know Joffrey yet, but she was already in love with him. He was all she ever dreamt her prince should be, tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold. She treasured every chance to spend time with him, few as they were. The only thing that scared her about today was Arya. Arya had a way of ruining everything. You never knew what she would do. “I’ll tell her,” Sansa said uncertainly, “but she’ll dress the way she always does.” She hoped it wouldn’t be too embarrassing. “May I be excused?”

    ---

    Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince’s head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa’s horrified eyes. Joffrey staggered and whirled around, roaring curses. Mycah ran for the trees as fast as his legs would take him. Arya swung at the prince again, but this time Joffrey caught the blow on Lion’s Tooth and sent her broken stick flying from her hands. The back of his head was all bloody and his eyes were on fire. Sansa was shrieking, “No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you’re spoiling it,” but no one was listening. Arya scooped up a rock and hurled it at Joffrey’s head. She hit his horse instead, and the blood bay reared and went galloping off after Mycah. “Stop it, don’t, stop it!” Sansa screamed. Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words, filthy words. Arya darted back, frightened now, but Joffrey followed, hounding her toward the woods, backing her up against a tree. Sansa didn’t know what to do. She watched helplessly, almost blind from her tears.

    ---

    Sansa rode to the Hand’s tourney with Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, in a litter with curtains of yellow silk so fine she could see right through them. They turned the whole world gold. Beyond the city walls, a hundred pavilions had been raised beside the river, and the common folk came out in the thousands to watch the games. The splendor of it all took Sansa’s breath away; the shining armor, the great chargers caparisoned in silver and gold, the shouts of the crowd, the banners snapping in the wind . . . and the knights themselves, the knights most of all.

    “It is better than the songs,” she whispered when they found the places that her father had promised her, among the high lords and ladies. Sansa was dressed beautifully that day, in a green gown that brought out the auburn of her hair, and she knew they were looking at her and smiling.

    ---

    The servants kept the cups filled all night, yet afterward Sansa could not recall ever tasting the wine. She needed no wine. She was drunk on the magic of the night, giddy with glamour, swept away by beauties she had dreamt of all her life and never dared hope to know. Singers sat before the king’s pavilion, filling the dusk with music. A juggler kept a cascade of burning clubs spinning through the air. The king’s own fool, the pie-faced simpleton called Moon Boy, danced about on stilts, all in motley, making mock of everyone with such deft cruelty that Sansa wondered if he was simple after all. Even Septa Mordane was helpless before him; when he sang his little song about the High Septon, she laughed so hard she spilled wine on herself.

    And Joffrey was the soul of courtesy. He talked to Sansa all night, showering her with compliments, making her laugh, sharing little bits of court gossip, explaining Moon Boy’s japes. Sansa was so captivated that she quite forgot all her courtesies and ignored Septa Mordane, seated to her left.

    ---

    Suddenly terrified, Sansa pushed at Septa Mordane’s shoulder, hoping to wake her, but she only snored the louder. King Robert had stumbled off and half the benches were suddenly empty. The feast was over, and the beautiful dream had ended with it.

    ---

    Her father’s decision still bewildered her. When the Knight of Flowers had spoken up, she’d been sure she was about to see one of Old Nan’s stories come to life. Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes. And then Father had refused him! It had upset her more than she could tell. She had said as much to Septa Mordane as they descended the stairs from the gallery, but the septa had only told her it was not her place to question her lord father’s decisions.

    That was when Lord Baelish had said, “Oh, I don’t know, Septa. Some of her lord father’s decisions could do with a bit of questioning. The young lady is as wise as she is lovely.” He made a sweeping bow to Sansa, so deep she was not quite sure if she was being complimented or mocked.

    Septa Mordane had been very upset to realize that Lord Baelish had overheard them. “The girl was just talking, my lord,” she’d said. “Foolish chatter. She meant nothing by the comment.”

    Lord Baelish stroked his little pointed beard and said, “Nothing? Tell me, child, why would you have sent Ser Loras?”

    Sansa had no choice but to explain about heroes and monsters. The king’s councillor smiled. “Well, those are not the reasons I’d have given, but . . . ” He had touched her cheek, his thumb lightly tracing the line of a cheekbone. “Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow.”

    ---

    “There was a black brother,” Sansa said, “begging men for the Wall, only he was kind of old and smelly.” She hadn’t liked that at all. She had always imagined the Night’s Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night’s Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon.

    ---

    “Arya started it,” Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. “She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I’m going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can’t stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid.”

    ---

    “I didn’t do anything wrong,” Sansa pleaded with him. “I don’t want to go back.” She loved King’s Landing; the pagaentry of the court, the high lords and ladies in their velvets and silks and gemstones, the great city with all its people. The tournament had been the most magical time of her whole life, and there was so much she had not seen yet, harvest feasts and masked balls and mummer shows. She could not bear the thought of losing it all. “Send Arya away, she started it, Father, I swear it. I’ll be good, you’ll see, just let me stay and I promise to be as fine and noble and courteous as the queen.”

    Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

    Arya was chewing at her lip in that disgusting way she had. “Can we take Syrio back with us?”

    “Who cares about your stupid dancing master?” Sansa flared. “Father, I only just now remembered, I can’t go away, I’m to marry Prince Joffrey.” She tried to smile bravely for him. “I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies.”

    ---

    [when under arrest by Cersei's orders]

    She went to sleep wondering, restless, and fearful. Was her beautiful Joffrey the king now? Or had they killed him too? She was afraid for him, and for her father. If only they would tell her what was happening . . .

    That night Sansa dreamt of Joffrey on the throne, with herself seated beside him in a gown of woven gold. She had a crown on her head, and everyone she had ever known came before her, to bend the knee and say their courtesies.
    ---

    “Sansa, sweetling, you must see what a dreadful position this has left us in. You are innocent of any wrong, we all know that, and yet you are the daughter of a traitor. How can I allow you to marry my son?”

    “But I love him,” Sansa wailed, confused and frightened. What did they mean to do to her? What had they done to her father? It was not supposed to happen this way. She had to wed Joffrey, they were betrothed, he was promised to her, she had even dreamed about it. It wasn’t fair to take him away from her on account of whatever her father might have done.

    “How well I know that, child,” Cersei said, her voice so kind and sweet. “Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father’s plan to send you away from us, if not for love?”

    “It was for love,” Sansa said in a rush. “Father wouldn’t even give me leave to say farewell.” She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn’t loved Joffrey as much as she did. “He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn’t listen.” The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King’s Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. “Please,” she finished, “you have to let me marry Joffrey, I’ll be ever so good a wife to him, you’ll see. I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.”

    ---

    Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. “Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one day to your sorrow.” In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound’s voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. “Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants.”
    And a little Jungian cherry on top:
    No other human type can equal the extraverted sensation-type in realism. His sense for objective facts is extraordinarily developed. His life is an accumulation of actual experience with concrete objects, and the more pronounced he is, the less use does he make of his experience. In certain cases the events of his life hardly deserve [p. 458] the name 'experience'. He knows no better use for this sensed 'experience' than to make it serve as a guide to fresh sensations; anything in the least 'new' that comes within his circle of interest is forthwith turned to a sensational account and is made to serve this end. In so far as one is disposed to regard a highly developed sense for sheer actuality as very reasonable, will such men be esteemed rational. In reality, however, this is by no means the case, since they are equally subject to the sensation of irrational, chance happenings, as they are to rational behaviour.

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    No.

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    1. You don't know what Se leading is.
    2. I've read all the books twice, dumbass.

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    WARNING: This post contains spoilers.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    eh, I haven't read the book, but there's a strain of formal, distant endearment I've noticed a few times in their dynamic ("...what do you think holds things together?" "...our relationship?" etc.). I just don't see any other types working for either of them.
    Part of the problem here might be that any "our relationship" scenes and talks between them, and dead baby story and whatnot, was added only in the show. To hear the actress speak of it, she must have not liked what kind of bitch Cersei is. Later on, when we get to see her POV, she's rather detailed about how much she hated Robert from the beginning, etc. So that's why I said it would require some thinking... duality seems unlikely at the first sight, but it also seems neither of them have given the other a chance - and that wouldn't take any relation, even duality, that far.

    Can't quote what isn't there, so you'll either have to trust me, ask someone who has read to confirm... or read to make sure it isn't there.

    Overall, her expression struck me more as that of a beta NF attempting Se (i.e. overcompensating in conveying her frustration with the lannister's son, wanting to 'prove' her mettle via the sword, etc.) than that of a gamma SF. Though I could see SEE making some sense.
    I just really have a problem with introversion. Maybe that's partially due to contrast with Sansa, but she seems an uber-proactive kid. Also, when she wants to do something, she tends just to do it. Later on she thinks more, but she's still rather a need-to-learn-to-consider-consequences type of person... she's good with them in the moment, but not in the big picture. Actually, so far she's just as impulsive as ever... nevermind that learning part.

    Well, post some quotes, because this thread was started in reference to the show. The fact that the character seems IEI to me has little to do with his being 'angry,' which in the context of an Ni-sub 4w5 hardly comes across as distinctly "Fe."
    Jon as an ILI-Ni and Tyrion as EIE-Ni could make some sense. Not sure what admiration you're referring to, but there is the mutually-defective connection there.
    So, how about posting at the very least a typing of him, instead of using your literary infatuation to set up false pedestals of entitlement.
    This thread was named after the first book and as such I have every right to argue my case. Add an "HBO show, not the real thing" disclaimer and I'm good. No, seriously.

    Just like Sansa and Arya are contrasted, so are Jon and Robb - dark and fair, slim and strong, silent and laughing. We don't get to see Robb's POV, which might be part of the reason why he appears less introspective, but there are several scenes that suggest he's in fact so. Either way, I'd say Robb is more on the Fe side than Jon, although not necessarily Fe-valuing... just more aware of it. I don't know about his type really, though. Just not Fe-PoLR or Ip.
    “The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least.”

    “No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

    Robb was not impressed. “The Others take his eyes,” he swore. “He died well. Race you to the bridge?”

    “Done,” Jon said, kicking his horse forward. Robb cursed and followed, and they galloped off down the trail, Robb laughing and hooting, Jon silent and intent. The hooves of their horses kicked up showers of snow as they went.

    Bran did not try to follow. His pony could not keep up. He had seen the ragged man’s eyes, and he was thinking of them now. After a while, the sound of Robb’s laughter receded, and the woods grew silent again.

    ---

    After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit. Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.

    ---

    Two serving wenches stood beneath the sign of the Smoking Log, the local alehouse. When Theon Greyjoy called out to them, the younger girl turned red and covered her face. Theon spurred his mount to move up beside Robb. “Sweet Kyra,” he said with a laugh. “She squirms like a weasel in bed, but say a word to her on the street, and she blushes pink as a maid. Did I ever tell you about the night that she and Bessa—”

    “Not where my brother can hear, Theon,” Robb warned him with a glance at Bran.

    Bran looked away and pretended not to have heard, but he could feel Greyjoy’s eyes on him. No doubt he was smiling. He smiled a lot, as if the world were a secret joke that only he was clever enough to understand. Robb seemed to admire Theon and enjoy his company, but Bran had never warmed to his father’s ward.

    ---

    Robb seemed half a stranger to Bran now, transformed, a lord in truth, though he had not yet seen his sixteenth name day. Even their father’s bannermen seemed to sense it. Many tried to test him, each in his own way. Roose Bolton and Robett Glover both demanded the honor of battle command, the first brusquely, the second with a smile and a jest. Stout, grey-haired Maege Mormont, dressed in mail like a man, told Robb bluntly that he was young enough to be her grandson, and had no business giving her commands . . . but as it happened, she had a granddaughter she would be willing to have him marry. Soft-spoken Lord Cerwyn had actually brought his daughter with him, a plump, homely maid of thirty years who sat at her father’s left hand and never lifted her eyes from her plate. Jovial Lord Hornwood had no daughters, but he did bring gifts, a horse one day, a haunch of venison the next, a silver-chased hunting horn the day after, and he asked nothing in return . . . nothing but a certain holdfast taken from his grandfather, and hunting rights north of a certain ridge, and leave to dam the White Knife, if it please the lord.


    Robb answered each of them with cool courtesy, much as Father might have, and somehow he bent them to his will.
    As for Jon and Tyrion, that's the impression I got, nothing else.

    Who said anything about loving or hating? I was referring to Stark, as one of the protagonists in the show (being of the family it starts from).
    A pity the story only gains momentum after he dies, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    1. You don't know what Se leading is.
    2. I've read all the books twice, dumbass.
    How about paying attention the third time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    How about paying attention the third time?
    You're on ignore permanently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    1. You don't know what Se leading is.
    Just for future reference, what is Se leading?

    Also thank you for explaining. Its nice to see someone who can actually expand on their reasoning here.
    4w5 sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Just for future reference, what is Se leading?
    In MMORPGs, such as World of Warcraft, there is something called aggro, which is the amount of aggression that an enemy NPC has toward a particular player or NPC who is attacking them. It's measured as a percentage, and the player or NPC with the greatest percentage of the enemy's aggro will be the focus of their attacks. You gain more aggro the more threatening you are, whether it be through dealing the most damage or by healing too much.

    Se leading types have a perfect awareness of the aggro of all surrounding people/objects/whatever, and they know how far they can push before they acquire a large enough percentage of it to be the focus of someone's aggression.

    Sansa seems like some nervous, shy little creature, but it's actually anxiety, because she's constantly aware of aggro, and how she has to remain within her role as a dainty lady thing in order to not build up too much of it herself. She's too continously aware of all of this too not have strong Se, and I argue that she's Se dominant because the anxiety is so surface. Look at Daenerys, who is aware of these dynamics, but is always composed and confident in some weird way. It's because her base function isn't being attacked by the external game of aggro.

    To predictably use myself as an example, in such a stressful situation, I wouldn't seem anxious. I'd be stressed, sure, but I'd be totally confident in my own head, crunching the numbers, doing the equations, figuring out what to do. My Ti would only be threatened if I were in some fucked up game with IEEs and ILEs. Sansa's environment is so rigidly Ti that she feels helpless and exposed. She acts exactly like my SEE best friend whenever I've inadvertently supervised her. Her Se gets crushed, and she turns into a helpless little Fi baby.

    Look at Arya. She's got a natural, innate kind of wisdom and a canny sense of perspective about what she observes. She sees what's going on and fights back at it, her disdain for Fe and her strong Ni/Te allowing her be at a psychological position of strength against the mean evil Beta villains. She often seems disturbed, but never helpless or confounded.

    Also thank you for explaining. Its nice to see someone who can actually expand on their reasoning here.
    I charge for Ti. That will be 500 Russian Rubles.

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    My reaction to the thread typings, in sum:
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    In MMORPGs, such as World of Warcraft, there is something called aggro, which is the amount of aggression that an enemy NPC has toward a particular player or NPC who is attacking them. It's measured as a percentage, and the player or NPC with the greatest percentage of the enemy's aggro will be the focus of their attacks. You gain more aggro the more threatening you are, whether it be through dealing the most damage or by healing too much.

    Se leading types have a perfect awareness of the aggro of all surrounding people/objects/whatever, and they know how far they can push before they acquire a large enough percentage of it to be the focus of someone's aggression.


    Sansa seems like some nervous, shy little creature, but it's actually anxiety, because she's constantly aware of aggro, and how she has to remain within her role as a dainty lady thing in order to not build up too much of it herself. She's too continously aware of all of this too not have strong Se, and I argue that she's Se dominant because the anxiety is so surface.
    Look at Daenerys, who is aware of these dynamics, but is always composed and confident in some weird way. It's because her base function isn't being attacked by the external game of aggro.

    To predictably use myself as an example, in such a stressful situation, I wouldn't seem anxious. I'd be stressed, sure, but I'd be totally confident in my own head, crunching the numbers, doing the equations, figuring out what to do. My Ti would only be threatened if I were in some fucked up game with IEEs and ILEs. Sansa's environment is so rigidly Ti that she feels helpless and exposed. She acts exactly like my SEE best friend whenever I've inadvertently supervised her. Her Se gets crushed, and she turns into a helpless little Fi baby.

    Look at Arya. She's got a natural, innate kind of wisdom and a canny sense of perspective about what she observes. She sees what's going on and fights back at it, her disdain for Fe and her strong Ni/Te allowing her be at a psychological position of strength against the mean evil Beta villains. She often seems disturbed, but never helpless or confounded.
    Holy shit! I like this a lot - it's hard to paint a verbal picture of , but this is the best I've seen so far...

    And yep, I absolutely shut down when I'm strongly forced to pay attention to in such a way that I can't bulldoze through it or find a way around things - it's no fun at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Explainish
    You've painted a damn good painting sir! If that's how it is, it is the most beautiful explanation I ever saw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    On the nature of Se
    Huh. So how does this translate into the kind of impulsivity and forcefulness Se types are known for? And what does Ni do to complement it?

    I charge for Ti. That will be 500 Russian Rubles.
    Oh. Huh. What's the conversion rate for pocket-lint and pubic hair to rubles?
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Victory: Aiss
    You're on ignore permanently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Huh. So how does this translate into the kind of impulsivity and forcefulness Se types are known for? And what does Ni do to complement it?
    It's a matter of confidence. The more confident an SEE is in their environment, the more likely they are to push and prod.

    Ni to them is like xanax. I'll elaborate more later, since I'm short on time.

    Oh. Huh. What's the conversion rate for pocket-lint and pubic hair to rubles?
    My balls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    You're on ignore permanently.
    Victory: k0rpsey
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
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    johari nohari
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Longer a Dating Site View Post
    Victory: k0rpsey
    You're on ignore permanently.

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    It's a matter of confidence. The more confident an SEE is in their environment, the more likely they are to push and prod.
    That's true of everybody. Unless you're bullying the obvious 'weak humanitarian' person in a social situation that's the most 'humanitarian', but then you're just obviously being insecure. You don't want other people to think you are weak so you push and prod to the softest targets instead of being man enough to stand up to people who will push you back. And once the 'weak fags' actually do push those types of people back, they stop pushing.

    Stand up to the bully and he'll flee, he'll flee! He'll flee like the pathetic insecure cowardly loser that he be!!!

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    Can I just say... that heart eating scene with Khal Drogo eye-fucking Dany was soooo hot. My kind of sexy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Ni to them is like xanax. I'll elaborate more later, since I'm short on time.
    Sansa has a very weak sense of context. While political intrigue between hers and other noble families begins festering into a very dangerous situation, she remains oblivious. It's because SEEs are in-the-present sort of people, and without Ni to help her grasp the bigger picture of the goings on in the castle, Sansa is left in this state of anxiety, not understanding why all these bad things are happening or in what way they are connected.

    There is an interesting scene during a jousting tourney in which Littlefinger, an IEI, lets Sansa in on the horrific history between The Hound and his brother, Gregor Clegane. When Sansa first notices Gregor, her immediate reaction is one of intensely negative Fi. Littlefinger senses this, and gives her Ni context, which he gathered in his role as an intelligencer. His Ni/Fe allows him to know what kind of "gossipy" information is useful in a political context. Sansa isn't very comforted by what Littlefinger says, but she was given context that made sense of her feelings.

    I'm not sure what an ILI would have said differently, but it would probably be something akin to, "That guy held his brother's face in a brazier for no reason. These people are evil and we shouldn't associate with them. Here's a plan for stealing money and absconding in three days on ship."

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    That's true of everybody. Unless you're bullying the obvious 'weak humanitarian' person in a social situation that's the most 'humanitarian', but then you're just obviously being insecure. You don't want other people to think you are weak so you push and prod to the softest targets instead of being man enough to stand up to people who will push you back. And once the 'weak fags' actually do push those types of people back, they stop pushing.

    Stand up to the bully and he'll flee, he'll flee! He'll flee like the pathetic insecure cowardly loser that he be!!!
    No. The kind of pushing and prodding I was referring to is exclusive to Se dominants.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    Can I just say... that heart eating scene with Khal Drogo eye-fucking Dany was soooo hot. My kind of sexy.
    The sexiest part was when her brother had molten gold poured on his head. Gets me off every time.

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    Well I've only got two hundred pages left to go in the book and holy fucking shit, wights?! I mean, I know that there was magic at one time in this setting, but to have it just thrown right in your face like that after so much mundane ordinary fantasy setting is kind of jarring. I really like how minimal and understated stuff like this is.

    And yeah, that was one hell of an Ip-temp stress response from Jon. Guy's head twisted the fuck around? Supernatural cold cutting through your cloak? Take up a sword and go burn yourself some blue-eyed zombie motherfucker. Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Sansa has a very weak sense of context.
    Ni deals a lot in context then? This would explain the disdain I have for people who can't or won't adapt to/notice contexts.
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    Caught episode 1, seems like a decent show even though it's not my usual cuppa (can we not get a decent space-horror show instead of all these dragons and elves?). And Lena Headey is verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry hot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    While I haven't gotten to the books yet, a friend and I just spent a late evening going-on early morning watching all the episodes and, dude, holy shit.
    books are great (besides "A Feast for Crows"), and I'm waiting when they'll issue the 1st season completely

    Eddard Stark - seems for me to be ESTJ (Sean Bean is ISTJ)
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  36. #36
    ._. Aiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    Well I've only got two hundred pages left to go in the book and holy fucking shit, wights?! I mean, I know that there was magic at one time in this setting, but to have it just thrown right in your face like that after so much mundane ordinary fantasy setting is kind of jarring. I really like how minimal and understated stuff like this is.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't wights there, like, in prologue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't wights there, like, in prologue?
    They were.

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    Sir Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't wights there, like, in prologue?
    There were, but the full extent of their horror hadn't really been revealed then. I mean, hacking an arm off and then having it slither at you and try to tear into your leg is some The Thing level body horror.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

  39. #39
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Starks
    Jon Snow - LII
    Eddard Stark - EII
    Arya - ILE
    Sansa- ESI
    Catelyn - LSE

    Lannisters
    Tyrion - LII or ILE
    Jaime - SLE
    Cersei - EIE
    Joffrey - EIE
    Tywin - LIE

    Targs + Barbs
    Daenyrs - IEI
    Viserys - EIE
    Drogo - SLE
    Jorah - LSI

    Barathorn
    Robert - SLI
    Stannis - LSI
    Renly - SEE

    Others
    Littlefinger - ILI
    Sam - SEI


    There is no way Sansa and Arya are duals
    Sansa isn't a Se first function type, she's introveted, all she talks about is her little fairy world of knights and lords shitting lace and gold, but she uses her status and privilege to dismiss underlings like the Septa.

    Arya is very extroverted.
    Last edited by mu4; 06-06-2011 at 02:11 AM.

  40. #40
    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Starks
    Jon Snow - ? I'm waiting for relationship between him and Alliser Thorne to develop.
    Eddard Stark - LSI I don't think the whole honor, justice and rules thing is how Fi does morality.
    Arya - ILE or EP-Ne, ILE makes sense in terms of relationship with Eddard.
    Sansa- LSI
    Catelyn - Beta NF (reminds me of redbaron).
    Benjen - EIE (reminds me of Gilly)

    Lannisters
    Tyrion - ILE to the max.
    Jaime - ESE (reminds me of Mt Dew)
    Cersei - LII
    Joffrey - ILI maybe IEI, pretty much epitome of the victim mentality (reminds me of Jinix).
    Tywin - LIE

    Targs + Barbs
    Daenyrs - ? probably some Ni ego.
    Viserys - LSI (reminds me of tcaudllg)
    Drogo - SLE maybe SEE?

    Barathorn
    Robert - EIE


    Others
    Barristan Selmy - LSE
    Sam - SEI
    Varys - SLI
    Alliser Thorne - SLE or LSI
    Mormont - SLI?

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