Greetings to everyone. WARNING: very long post.
I've participated in several typology forums to present day. As expected for a western user, my first contact came from MBTI-Keirsey. I've been for a while in what some users have called JCF (jungian cognitive function, a sort of MBTI function-focused descendant).
Actually I'm more into Socionics. I recongnize that my first impression was not good: Socionis.com; V.I.? what's that, phrenology? (I know, it's more like interpreting gestures) etc. But actually I see it as superior to previous models.
I've been learning for a while before choosing to join this socionics specific forum. I've had problems for determining my sociotype, and the "solutions" that I found satisfied me only temporally. Doubts come periodically to my mind, doubts that I had not about my MBTI type, neither reading profiles nor deep analyzing this mindset (at least in those days): INTP. I still see too much contradictions that I cannot properly solve about my sociotype, and I never feel comfortable with strong contradictions.
I do not nor cannot ignore data (objective data which has proven some connection with facts) that disagree with me only for feeling comfortable. But I do not feel comfortable with contradictions, feeling them as a insufficient knowledge or concept misunderstanding. While I'm not able to solve them I do not feel that the task of "understanding" is complete.
This behavior is linked to my E5 enneagram, I suppose. This is almost not subject to debate. Well, I can discuss whatever aspect of my personality, but I see much less likely being a different enneagram than a different sociotype or MBTI type. I have not found any serious contradiction between my behavior, way of thinking, fears, etc, that does not fit better in E5 than any other enneagram. Maybe some periods of temporal "hyperactivity" (when I'm geeking or debating an interesting idea, for example) but nothing that could suggest E7. I doubt that an high sensory stimulant ambient like a disco could be so toxic for an E7 (who usually enjoy this) like it's for me (if hell exists, here it is), or that an E7 could feel so unconfortable and be so awkward when socializing with strangers under "uncontrolled" conditions. The wing is another issue, but I see 5w6>5w4.
Well, now the main point. This thread in another forum express the reasoning I made those days for archiving the Ti-ILE conclusion. An user of this forum partly copied it here, so probably some of you have already read it:
I'm not convinced that my particular hypothesis about how Ti_acc+Ne_pro Vs Ne_acc+Ti_pro were correct, which were the key for choosing Ti-ILE. I recognize I overvalued this aspect in a more broader issue, and maybe I misunderstood this concept (accepting vs producing) and/or several others, because as happened before I do not feel comfortable (or sure) about my election.
So, what's my sociotype? Am I a LII (a "direct" translation of Ti>Ne INTP)? Or maybe an ILE? (same ego functions, P character as expected for an MBTI INTP). Or maybe an ILI-INTp? Any other less likeky option?
I've observed that most users in this forum think that the more probable "translation" for MBTI to Socionics imply maintaining the 4-letters-code. I said probable, I know there's no 1:1 equivalence (functions and concepts are defined differently) but still some options would be more probable than others for each sociotype. Both profiles (INTP and INTp) are interpreted as representative of the same mindset. I do not agree with this, because in my opinion the MBTI INTP represents much more an alpha (theoretical oriented NT) than gamma (purposeful oriented NT) type, but I'm still open to this option. Quite confident about being an alpha NT, but of course I'm open to debate. This apparently puts ILI at the bottom of the three more likely options.
If there would not exist the question of subtypes which could "color" the behavior of the main type, I would probably choose LII. The average ILE, specially Ne-ILE, is usually described in a way that remember a lot the MBTI ENTP, which I'm not. Neither extroverted in a classical sense (external behavior, social, etc), nor I fit in the E7 enneagram (the most usual for them). I know the Jungian extroversion only predisposes to that behavior but is not equivalent to it. Extratim is not the same as "classical extrovert". This opens the "Ne leading, not Ti" option. But I consider myself an introvert, usually energized by an internal point of reference and depleted by an external one. The "Ti subtype" was useful for this. Being a "trick" I used I cannot trust it too much, but at the same time I have to be open to the idea that maybe I overvalue my supposed introversion and I could be an "introverted extratim" (this aspect is considered in the upper thread).
How to interpret my behavior... when I'm dealing with my "inner circle" of friends I could be seen as Rodney Mckay-like, but outside this conditions I'm much more like Daniel Jackson (maybe a bit more hiperactive). Usually extremely serious. Ignoring the E7 enneagram of ENTPs and their predisposition to "classical" -MBTI behavior- extraversion, the biggest problem with the ILE possibility is the EP temperament. They're supposed to be outside seekers (maybe in the world of ideas, but not people) and adaptable, something I'm not. I'm counter-adaptable; I find very difficult dealing with unforeseen issues, at least negative ones. I need a time for diggesting them (if I'm able to do so...).
Not sure that all of this automatically implies having an IJ temperament, because my "J" behavior is almost absent. I have very poor reliability, very chaotic, messy behavior. All of this was also reconciliated with the Ti-ILE option, something like "a Ti+Ne ego user with P behavior but as focused in Ti, introverted". But damn, this is only a trick, a sort of made-to-measure answer, how can I trust this? I can't. I need a more objective answer than which I was able to achieve. Obviously I did not choose in those days Ti-ILE only for this, but mainly for the accepting/leading question I developed in the upper thread. But I'm no more confident in it.
PoLR? Apparently Se>Fi. If there's something I can't deal is being forced to do anything I do not want, or agree. My internal demon explodes under these circumstances, and I can become even agressive. Se is usually "pushy". "Do what I say" or "submit to this" method, rule, whatever, only gets that I become proportionally rebellious to the pressure made to me. Convince me or you will get nothing from me.
Another problem with Se is the idea of "act now!" If I had a miriad of different ideas, options, ect, how can I simply choose one without completely considering all of them, with all their implications and depth? I can't. Being forced to act inmediately is like being forced to ignore the ongoing process of thinking and reasoning, whichs "interrupts" the normal flows of my thoughts and cause a sort of mental BSOD...
Fi is also superego, but reading Wikisocion descriptions about Fi role Vs Fi PoLR, it seems that I can deal with Fi better than Se. Usually a very polite person, sometimes as a defense mechanism (Fi role).
Mobilizing? This seems to contradict the upper conclusion, because I would say Fe>Si. DS is supossed to be always welcomed and liked, whereas HA only in small doses. And I like Fe, but only in small doses, whereas I like Si comfort. This issue of DS is a bit strange. Introtims would have extroverted DS, wich would imply that introtims "seeks" extroversion, as represented for dual relationships. The fact is that introverts deal better and are happier with introverts, and vice-versa. "Complementing your dual" sounds well, but does not fit in observed reality. Introverts are energyzed by introversion, therefore introverted people, and the same for extroverts. This is the aspect of socionics I find less convincing.
I offer a personal description of my life that could be useful:
I've been always a curious person. I have good memory so I can point some details about my early chilhood (3 years old). As I live in a very small village, I have a lot of surrounding fields and meadows. I remeber walking on it and observing the ground, the stones, differences in shapes and colours, which one was heavier, etc. I collected some of them; I liked the shinier ones (like a magpie) and more well shaped. I still collect minerals (these which come in small boxes with names).
The same with small animals and plants (although I tend to dislike some bugs). I captured some tadpoles from a near abandoned pool and observed their growth.
My first day of school (kindergarten) I was terrified. I was afraid of stranges, specially elder ones. I cried because I did not want to go...
I was also much less impulsive than other kids, so too many people, or too loud noise was very displeasant. I even remember what picture the teacher make us to coloring... it was filled with empty umbrellas, and I discovered my favorite color: purple!
I loved learning to read, something I made quicker than the other kids.
Few years later I discovered my childhood hero: McGyver. I really loved this guy (I know now how absurd his "science" was, but that's another history) Solving almost any problem in such an intelligent and imaginative (and fake) way! So I decided that I want to be an inventor and make a lot of weird dispositives.
Continuing with the school, I loved Maths and Natural Sciences. I had two professors in different years who teached us more Maths knowledge that it was programmed, like equations one year before the supposed. My father proposed to me a popular riddle about a number of birds, and I solved it by equations. He does not know this (he couldn't study in his childood beyond basic learning, as happened to my mother) so he was really surprised that I was able of solving it.
I really love this, solving game problems. But they have to be logic ones, I still dislike... mmm how to say, visual quizs? I usually see them as if they have to be solved by "cheats" (this could point to my total lack of Ni). These logic problems, the more original solution they require the more I like them. Recently I have been tutoring a boy who does not know still equations. In his Math book there was a game problem of these ones, which could be easily solved by equations. So I was forced to find a creative solution... I really enjoyed it.
Altough I interacted with most of other kids, I did not consider any of them as a friend. I did not feel a link. They were so different: always "thinking" in football (soccer), girls, and any other form of crap. Well I also liked girls, but only as a small part of myself.
Things went better in the institute+high school (same building although different grades). I went to the main city of this region (Seville) so the difference with my village was brutal. Well educated people, still different from me but with more working brain areas than the limbic system...
I knew two guys similar to me. All of us had names starting with 'A': Agustín, Alberto and Antonio (myself). Curious . The first one one a more grounded man and more related to technical areas (he has studied computing); the second man has been the more similar person to me in all my life. He has studied Physics. All of us loved "geeking" and examined options for making crazy stuff. This has been the happier years of all my life. I made also a lot of personal experiment (alone) in my house, some of them really funny and some of them really DANGEROUS. I had several accidents. What I can say. I had so many ideas in my mind and so few opportunities for making them than I was not able to moderate/repress myself despite being aware of the danger. This was almost the unique area were I act like an extroverted person (geeking).
Now I have lost contact whith these guys. Agustín became too technified and grounded for my taste (he was not really a deep thought person). Alberto changed drastically in his years of University. He became too extroverted and with a behavior that few years before would never manifest. I have shared with him some random deep thoughts and personal issues, and originally he resonated with them a lot. I think that he finally adopted a "standarizing" way of facing life. I suspect he could be an E9 INTP.
The last years of the high school (17-18) were not so happy. I start manifesting severe procrastination problems, the more insecure I became about life the more I procrastinated. Well, I have never been a "duty worker" but more or less I did what I needed (what was not much in that epoch, I practically got A's studying the previous one or two days, although I made regularly my homework). I meet a guy which was a bad influence. So secure about himself, so stable life, zero problems, etc. I suspect he was an E3 ENTJ. He also utilized me a lot for his convenience, I mean, we were "apparently" friends when in fact he was benefiting of my deep knowledge. I suspected this a lot but I was unable of deal with it.
These days I was unable to say "NO" to someone who asked for help. Some girl (who I did not physically like) even convinced me for doing once her homework (technical drawing). I feel so bad that I promised myself that this will never happen again...
This have been a constant problem in my life. People asking help, taking profit of my knowledge in several areas, as if I were a sort of "deus ex machina". But they only used me, they really did not appreciate me (several of them, not all of course). It has been difficult, but I have consciously developed evilness? and I do not allow today that anyone manipulates myself.
That guy so secure about himself was in fact a "bad influence" because he manages so well in the world that makes me more insecure about my inability of doing this. The world has always been something "extrange" to myself, as if I live in it but I were not part of it. I like observing/analyzing the world when I can do this freely, but I dislike being forced to participate in it. I have always abhor having to "adapt" myself to the external world, to do things that no one has asked me if I want to (my opinion), only because they're supposed to be done, etc. What if I do not agree wit the task? What if I think it's incorrect? What if I later realize that another option is better? What if I simply do not want to to that shit? Etc. Feeling forced to act in a way makes me feel angry, insecure and finally depressed. External world is very Te-ish, and I'm not.
My years of University have been diverse. I first chose Telecommunications (aka Teleco) as a career. The biggest error in my life. Good grades people were always suggested for this or another technical career. I later moved to Computing. Not because my friend Agustín was also here. I like computers and programming, but not enough as a final job. In my last year of institute (high school) I remeber reading a Visual Basic handbook and making a Tetris. I used a graphical interface, but I do not know anything about DirectX so I used square fixed buttons as pieces for the bricks. The first code I made, completely ununstructured, very difficult for debugging. It was a long time task, but I made it. So I like computers as a tool or a form of entertaintment, but not as a full time work. Too technical and delimited area for a "pure thinker" like me.
So finally I went to Chemistry. Success. I have always loved Sciences, and was my first "heart" option. But as in my country there is no much options for someone like me, except for Chemical Engineering (which I also dislike) I doubted about it. It offers to me a broad thinking field, and I have excelled in some areas (usually the most abstract). And I also have enjoyed a lot finding errors in the teachings that I received, beacuse of the incompetence of some professors . I see them as a source of knowledge, but never as a figure of authority or "truthness". They offer ideas to me which I take as information (raw data) not as a truth that I must simply accept. I make my own evaluations.
A collection of questions and answers about myself:
Finally some pictures for V.I.1. What are 5 key qualities about you, and what is each of their direct opposites?
Intelligent, as opposed to be unable of understanding.
Imaginative, as opposed to be unable of innovate concepts, ideas.
Self-centered, as opposed to live for the non-self (Universe minus me).
Loyal, as opposed to be selfish.
Polite, as opposed to be ill-mannered.
2. Now explain why each of the opposites COULD be you and why it might be GOOD to be that opposite characteristic. Own them even if they are negative traits.
Intelligent. The more you know, the more you're aware about not knowing. A lot of times I'm unable to achieve the knowledge I want, desire or need, depending on the concrete circumstances. Having less understanding would made by life easier.
Imaginative. Sometimes I cannot see beyond the inmediate "temporal knowledge" I have. This made me not doubing constantly about my assumed ideas.
Self-centered. I usually ignore most people or any form of issues which does not concern to me. But I'm aware of people's needs, I'm not a sociopath. I care a lot about my close friends, putting their needs over mine if necessary (the closer to me, the more likely).
Loyal. I'm aware about the concept of reciprocity. I hate not receiving what I offer to others. But sometimes I have the same fault (at least in not too high level), and this could help me in some circumstances, as when I'm in too bad mood for caring about others.
Polite. I like to interact with people with respect, but some people get my nerves. I feel very good insulting them.
3. What would you say to a 5-year-old child if he or she asked you what the purpose of life is?
Life has no purpose by itself. There's no predefined goal in our existence. The best he/she can do is trying to discover what makes he feeling really happy, feeling good with himself and try to achieve it.
4. What type of advice would you give that same child on how to survive in this world?
Knowledge is power.
5. If you were told you only had one year to live from today, and it was 100% guaranteed that you would die exactly 1 year from now, what would you do in that year?
I would try to make a sort of impact in the world considering the limited time I have for it.
6. Why aren't you doing this now?
Lack of opportunities and not enough developed concrete goal.
7. What do you really want in your truest self?
I would like to make a trascendental impact in the world.
I would like to be the God of my concrete world. I would not like to rule over others, I would like to rule over my limited nature and my surroundings, what I consider an extension of myself and transform it, redesign it... according to my concrete ideas in a concrete instant.
Maybe being Skynet?
9. What are your defense mechanisms?
Ineffective: Procrastination. Passive-agreesive to the object of my frustration, usually myself. Impulsive behavior. Blaming against the world.
Effective (when I'm able to do it, not too often unfortunately): Deep focusing. Speeding "my conscious": under stress a lot of chaotic thoughts come to my mind, without control. When I'm able to correctly process information at higher speed than it's coming to my mind, I can retake control of my mind. Disconnecting my feelings about the ideas I'm having help a lot, as happens by seeing issues outside themselves.
10. What are some good habits that are needed for living a healthy adult life?
Healthy body (obviously) and healthy mind. But the last depends on the concrete user. I doubt I can go deeper in this without theorizing in something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
11. What are you like in relaxed and non-threatening situations?
Friendly. A fountain of knowledge and interesting ideas. Good advisor.
12. What does your heart feel like it needs and wants?
I miss knowing more people like me in real life. My heart sometimes desires a partner, but my mind knows that I'm not made for such life.
13. What condition is your heart in right now?
Nothing relevant after 12th question.
14. What does your head say it needs and wants?
My head says I need achieving my goals of self-development (I define what I want to be, not world neither people) and focusing is the best way of doing it.
15. What condition is your mind in right now?
Unstable. I've experienced periods of strong stability and really high level of self-awareness. I miss them, but too much external and internal troubles prevent me for achieving them.
16. What does your body say it needs and wants?
It says I should lose weight.
17. What is the condition of your body right now?
Easy for being deduced after question 16.
18. Which do you trust the most in making an important decision between your head, body, and heart? Why?
Head. I'm my mind, and my mind lives in my head.
19. Which do you trust the least in making an important decision between your head, body, and heart? Why?
Body. It's only the container for my mind.
20. What is your predominant fault?
I'm too indecisive.
21. Think of a time when you felt at ease and connected to yourself and others. What did you think about yourself, others, and the entire world during this time?
I thought I was able to do whatever I would like to do. I saw my life as full of potential, and so myself.
I doubt I once have feel trully connected to people, except my closest friends. I saw the guys mentioned in my OP as a sort of another versions of myself. I actually do not know people like them, but I have good friends that are not like me. I have a very good ISFJ friend (yeah, I'm able of appreciating her human qualities).
The world was the substrate for developing my potential.
22. Think of a time when you felt anxious and disconnected from yourself and others. What did you think about yourself, others, and the entire world during this time?
My mind does not work properly and this is basically the source of all my troubles.
People are stupid, sheeps, not aware of themselves or reality, selfish and in general terms, worthless.
The world is a f*ing tyrant, whorse than the OT God.
23. What is an addiction or urge that seems to drive you as almost as if you’re not in control? Almost like an alien force that drives or pushes you down.
24. What things do you feel you cannot do because they might jeopardize your survival?
Not sure. Nothing comes clearly to my mind.
25. What do you need in your life to face your fears?
Achieving a perfect mental state.
26. What is your own personal mission statement?
The kind of person I would like to be: a better version of myself.
The kind of activities I would like to be in: something not done before, like exploring deep space.
My personal mission is: to make a trascendeltal impact in the world.
Usual "stay away from me" serious faces.
With a friend:
What type do you think he could be? Sure about NF, INFj I think.
I will specially acknowledge any information about misconceptions, errors, etc I could made in my accepting Vs producing reasoning if I finally a LII instead an ILE, as I suspect.