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Thread: Summoning help for determining my sociotype

  1. #1
    Creepy-ssss

    Default Summoning help for determining my sociotype.

    Greetings to everyone. WARNING: very long post.

    I've participated in several typology forums to present day. As expected for a western user, my first contact came from MBTI-Keirsey. I've been for a while in what some users have called JCF (jungian cognitive function, a sort of MBTI function-focused descendant).

    Actually I'm more into Socionics. I recongnize that my first impression was not good: Socionis.com; V.I.? what's that, phrenology? (I know, it's more like interpreting gestures) etc. But actually I see it as superior to previous models.

    I've been learning for a while before choosing to join this socionics specific forum. I've had problems for determining my sociotype, and the "solutions" that I found satisfied me only temporally. Doubts come periodically to my mind, doubts that I had not about my MBTI type, neither reading profiles nor deep analyzing this mindset (at least in those days): INTP. I still see too much contradictions that I cannot properly solve about my sociotype, and I never feel comfortable with strong contradictions.

    I do not nor cannot ignore data (objective data which has proven some connection with facts) that disagree with me only for feeling comfortable. But I do not feel comfortable with contradictions, feeling them as a insufficient knowledge or concept misunderstanding. While I'm not able to solve them I do not feel that the task of "understanding" is complete.

    This behavior is linked to my E5 enneagram, I suppose. This is almost not subject to debate. Well, I can discuss whatever aspect of my personality, but I see much less likely being a different enneagram than a different sociotype or MBTI type. I have not found any serious contradiction between my behavior, way of thinking, fears, etc, that does not fit better in E5 than any other enneagram. Maybe some periods of temporal "hyperactivity" (when I'm geeking or debating an interesting idea, for example) but nothing that could suggest E7. I doubt that an high sensory stimulant ambient like a disco could be so toxic for an E7 (who usually enjoy this) like it's for me (if hell exists, here it is), or that an E7 could feel so unconfortable and be so awkward when socializing with strangers under "uncontrolled" conditions. The wing is another issue, but I see 5w6>5w4.

    Well, now the main point. This thread in another forum express the reasoning I made those days for archiving the Ti-ILE conclusion. An user of this forum partly copied it here, so probably some of you have already read it:

    http://www.personalitynation.com/soc...ociotypes.html

    I'm not convinced that my particular hypothesis about how Ti_acc+Ne_pro Vs Ne_acc+Ti_pro were correct, which were the key for choosing Ti-ILE. I recognize I overvalued this aspect in a more broader issue, and maybe I misunderstood this concept (accepting vs producing) and/or several others, because as happened before I do not feel comfortable (or sure) about my election.

    So, what's my sociotype? Am I a LII (a "direct" translation of Ti>Ne INTP)? Or maybe an ILE? (same ego functions, P character as expected for an MBTI INTP). Or maybe an ILI-INTp? Any other less likeky option?

    I've observed that most users in this forum think that the more probable "translation" for MBTI to Socionics imply maintaining the 4-letters-code. I said probable, I know there's no 1:1 equivalence (functions and concepts are defined differently) but still some options would be more probable than others for each sociotype. Both profiles (INTP and INTp) are interpreted as representative of the same mindset. I do not agree with this, because in my opinion the MBTI INTP represents much more an alpha (theoretical oriented NT) than gamma (purposeful oriented NT) type, but I'm still open to this option. Quite confident about being an alpha NT, but of course I'm open to debate. This apparently puts ILI at the bottom of the three more likely options.

    If there would not exist the question of subtypes which could "color" the behavior of the main type, I would probably choose LII. The average ILE, specially Ne-ILE, is usually described in a way that remember a lot the MBTI ENTP, which I'm not. Neither extroverted in a classical sense (external behavior, social, etc), nor I fit in the E7 enneagram (the most usual for them). I know the Jungian extroversion only predisposes to that behavior but is not equivalent to it. Extratim is not the same as "classical extrovert". This opens the "Ne leading, not Ti" option. But I consider myself an introvert, usually energized by an internal point of reference and depleted by an external one. The "Ti subtype" was useful for this. Being a "trick" I used I cannot trust it too much, but at the same time I have to be open to the idea that maybe I overvalue my supposed introversion and I could be an "introverted extratim" (this aspect is considered in the upper thread).

    How to interpret my behavior... when I'm dealing with my "inner circle" of friends I could be seen as Rodney Mckay-like, but outside this conditions I'm much more like Daniel Jackson (maybe a bit more hiperactive). Usually extremely serious. Ignoring the E7 enneagram of ENTPs and their predisposition to "classical" -MBTI behavior- extraversion, the biggest problem with the ILE possibility is the EP temperament. They're supposed to be outside seekers (maybe in the world of ideas, but not people) and adaptable, something I'm not. I'm counter-adaptable; I find very difficult dealing with unforeseen issues, at least negative ones. I need a time for diggesting them (if I'm able to do so...).

    Not sure that all of this automatically implies having an IJ temperament, because my "J" behavior is almost absent. I have very poor reliability, very chaotic, messy behavior. All of this was also reconciliated with the Ti-ILE option, something like "a Ti+Ne ego user with P behavior but as focused in Ti, introverted". But damn, this is only a trick, a sort of made-to-measure answer, how can I trust this? I can't. I need a more objective answer than which I was able to achieve. Obviously I did not choose in those days Ti-ILE only for this, but mainly for the accepting/leading question I developed in the upper thread. But I'm no more confident in it.

    PoLR? Apparently Se>Fi. If there's something I can't deal is being forced to do anything I do not want, or agree. My internal demon explodes under these circumstances, and I can become even agressive. Se is usually "pushy". "Do what I say" or "submit to this" method, rule, whatever, only gets that I become proportionally rebellious to the pressure made to me. Convince me or you will get nothing from me.

    Another problem with Se is the idea of "act now!" If I had a miriad of different ideas, options, ect, how can I simply choose one without completely considering all of them, with all their implications and depth? I can't. Being forced to act inmediately is like being forced to ignore the ongoing process of thinking and reasoning, whichs "interrupts" the normal flows of my thoughts and cause a sort of mental BSOD...

    Fi is also superego, but reading Wikisocion descriptions about Fi role Vs Fi PoLR, it seems that I can deal with Fi better than Se. Usually a very polite person, sometimes as a defense mechanism (Fi role).

    Mobilizing? This seems to contradict the upper conclusion, because I would say Fe>Si. DS is supossed to be always welcomed and liked, whereas HA only in small doses. And I like Fe, but only in small doses, whereas I like Si comfort. This issue of DS is a bit strange. Introtims would have extroverted DS, wich would imply that introtims "seeks" extroversion, as represented for dual relationships. The fact is that introverts deal better and are happier with introverts, and vice-versa. "Complementing your dual" sounds well, but does not fit in observed reality. Introverts are energyzed by introversion, therefore introverted people, and the same for extroverts. This is the aspect of socionics I find less convincing.

    I offer a personal description of my life that could be useful:
    I've been always a curious person. I have good memory so I can point some details about my early chilhood (3 years old). As I live in a very small village, I have a lot of surrounding fields and meadows. I remeber walking on it and observing the ground, the stones, differences in shapes and colours, which one was heavier, etc. I collected some of them; I liked the shinier ones (like a magpie) and more well shaped. I still collect minerals (these which come in small boxes with names).

    The same with small animals and plants (although I tend to dislike some bugs). I captured some tadpoles from a near abandoned pool and observed their growth.

    My first day of school (kindergarten) I was terrified. I was afraid of stranges, specially elder ones. I cried because I did not want to go...
    I was also much less impulsive than other kids, so too many people, or too loud noise was very displeasant. I even remember what picture the teacher make us to coloring... it was filled with empty umbrellas, and I discovered my favorite color: purple!

    I loved learning to read, something I made quicker than the other kids.

    Few years later I discovered my childhood hero: McGyver. I really loved this guy (I know now how absurd his "science" was, but that's another history) Solving almost any problem in such an intelligent and imaginative (and fake) way! So I decided that I want to be an inventor and make a lot of weird dispositives.

    Continuing with the school, I loved Maths and Natural Sciences. I had two professors in different years who teached us more Maths knowledge that it was programmed, like equations one year before the supposed. My father proposed to me a popular riddle about a number of birds, and I solved it by equations. He does not know this (he couldn't study in his childood beyond basic learning, as happened to my mother) so he was really surprised that I was able of solving it.

    I really love this, solving game problems. But they have to be logic ones, I still dislike... mmm how to say, visual quizs? I usually see them as if they have to be solved by "cheats" (this could point to my total lack of Ni). These logic problems, the more original solution they require the more I like them. Recently I have been tutoring a boy who does not know still equations. In his Math book there was a game problem of these ones, which could be easily solved by equations. So I was forced to find a creative solution... I really enjoyed it.

    Altough I interacted with most of other kids, I did not consider any of them as a friend. I did not feel a link. They were so different: always "thinking" in football (soccer), girls, and any other form of crap. Well I also liked girls, but only as a small part of myself.

    Things went better in the institute+high school (same building although different grades). I went to the main city of this region (Seville) so the difference with my village was brutal. Well educated people, still different from me but with more working brain areas than the limbic system...

    I knew two guys similar to me. All of us had names starting with 'A': Agustín, Alberto and Antonio (myself). Curious . The first one one a more grounded man and more related to technical areas (he has studied computing); the second man has been the more similar person to me in all my life. He has studied Physics. All of us loved "geeking" and examined options for making crazy stuff. This has been the happier years of all my life. I made also a lot of personal experiment (alone) in my house, some of them really funny and some of them really DANGEROUS. I had several accidents. What I can say. I had so many ideas in my mind and so few opportunities for making them than I was not able to moderate/repress myself despite being aware of the danger. This was almost the unique area were I act like an extroverted person (geeking).

    Now I have lost contact whith these guys. Agustín became too technified and grounded for my taste (he was not really a deep thought person). Alberto changed drastically in his years of University. He became too extroverted and with a behavior that few years before would never manifest. I have shared with him some random deep thoughts and personal issues, and originally he resonated with them a lot. I think that he finally adopted a "standarizing" way of facing life. I suspect he could be an E9 INTP.

    The last years of the high school (17-18) were not so happy. I start manifesting severe procrastination problems, the more insecure I became about life the more I procrastinated. Well, I have never been a "duty worker" but more or less I did what I needed (what was not much in that epoch, I practically got A's studying the previous one or two days, although I made regularly my homework). I meet a guy which was a bad influence. So secure about himself, so stable life, zero problems, etc. I suspect he was an E3 ENTJ. He also utilized me a lot for his convenience, I mean, we were "apparently" friends when in fact he was benefiting of my deep knowledge. I suspected this a lot but I was unable of deal with it.

    These days I was unable to say "NO" to someone who asked for help. Some girl (who I did not physically like) even convinced me for doing once her homework (technical drawing). I feel so bad that I promised myself that this will never happen again...

    This have been a constant problem in my life. People asking help, taking profit of my knowledge in several areas, as if I were a sort of "deus ex machina". But they only used me, they really did not appreciate me (several of them, not all of course). It has been difficult, but I have consciously developed evilness? and I do not allow today that anyone manipulates myself.

    That guy so secure about himself was in fact a "bad influence" because he manages so well in the world that makes me more insecure about my inability of doing this. The world has always been something "extrange" to myself, as if I live in it but I were not part of it. I like observing/analyzing the world when I can do this freely, but I dislike being forced to participate in it. I have always abhor having to "adapt" myself to the external world, to do things that no one has asked me if I want to (my opinion), only because they're supposed to be done, etc. What if I do not agree wit the task? What if I think it's incorrect? What if I later realize that another option is better? What if I simply do not want to to that shit? Etc. Feeling forced to act in a way makes me feel angry, insecure and finally depressed. External world is very Te-ish, and I'm not.

    My years of University have been diverse. I first chose Telecommunications (aka Teleco) as a career. The biggest error in my life. Good grades people were always suggested for this or another technical career. I later moved to Computing. Not because my friend Agustín was also here. I like computers and programming, but not enough as a final job. In my last year of institute (high school) I remeber reading a Visual Basic handbook and making a Tetris. I used a graphical interface, but I do not know anything about DirectX so I used square fixed buttons as pieces for the bricks. The first code I made, completely ununstructured, very difficult for debugging. It was a long time task, but I made it. So I like computers as a tool or a form of entertaintment, but not as a full time work. Too technical and delimited area for a "pure thinker" like me.

    So finally I went to Chemistry. Success. I have always loved Sciences, and was my first "heart" option. But as in my country there is no much options for someone like me, except for Chemical Engineering (which I also dislike) I doubted about it. It offers to me a broad thinking field, and I have excelled in some areas (usually the most abstract). And I also have enjoyed a lot finding errors in the teachings that I received, beacuse of the incompetence of some professors . I see them as a source of knowledge, but never as a figure of authority or "truthness". They offer ideas to me which I take as information (raw data) not as a truth that I must simply accept. I make my own evaluations.

    A collection of questions and answers about myself:

    1. What are 5 key qualities about you, and what is each of their direct opposites?

    Intelligent, as opposed to be unable of understanding.
    Imaginative, as opposed to be unable of innovate concepts, ideas.
    Self-centered, as opposed to live for the non-self (Universe minus me).
    Loyal, as opposed to be selfish.
    Polite, as opposed to be ill-mannered.

    2. Now explain why each of the opposites COULD be you and why it might be GOOD to be that opposite characteristic. Own them even if they are negative traits.

    Intelligent. The more you know, the more you're aware about not knowing. A lot of times I'm unable to achieve the knowledge I want, desire or need, depending on the concrete circumstances. Having less understanding would made by life easier.

    Imaginative. Sometimes I cannot see beyond the inmediate "temporal knowledge" I have. This made me not doubing constantly about my assumed ideas.

    Self-centered. I usually ignore most people or any form of issues which does not concern to me. But I'm aware of people's needs, I'm not a sociopath. I care a lot about my close friends, putting their needs over mine if necessary (the closer to me, the more likely).

    Loyal. I'm aware about the concept of reciprocity. I hate not receiving what I offer to others. But sometimes I have the same fault (at least in not too high level), and this could help me in some circumstances, as when I'm in too bad mood for caring about others.

    Polite. I like to interact with people with respect, but some people get my nerves. I feel very good insulting them.

    3. What would you say to a 5-year-old child if he or she asked you what the purpose of life is?

    Life has no purpose by itself. There's no predefined goal in our existence. The best he/she can do is trying to discover what makes he feeling really happy, feeling good with himself and try to achieve it.

    4. What type of advice would you give that same child on how to survive in this world?

    Knowledge is power.

    5. If you were told you only had one year to live from today, and it was 100% guaranteed that you would die exactly 1 year from now, what would you do in that year?

    I would try to make a sort of impact in the world considering the limited time I have for it.

    6. Why aren't you doing this now?

    Lack of opportunities and not enough developed concrete goal.

    7. What do you really want in your truest self?

    I would like to make a trascendental impact in the world.
    I would like to be the God of my concrete world. I would not like to rule over others, I would like to rule over my limited nature and my surroundings, what I consider an extension of myself and transform it, redesign it... according to my concrete ideas in a concrete instant.
    Maybe being Skynet?

    9. What are your defense mechanisms?

    Ineffective: Procrastination. Passive-agreesive to the object of my frustration, usually myself. Impulsive behavior. Blaming against the world.

    Effective (when I'm able to do it, not too often unfortunately): Deep focusing. Speeding "my conscious": under stress a lot of chaotic thoughts come to my mind, without control. When I'm able to correctly process information at higher speed than it's coming to my mind, I can retake control of my mind. Disconnecting my feelings about the ideas I'm having help a lot, as happens by seeing issues outside themselves.

    10. What are some good habits that are needed for living a healthy adult life?

    Healthy body (obviously) and healthy mind. But the last depends on the concrete user. I doubt I can go deeper in this without theorizing in something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

    11. What are you like in relaxed and non-threatening situations?

    Friendly. A fountain of knowledge and interesting ideas. Good advisor.

    12. What does your heart feel like it needs and wants?

    I miss knowing more people like me in real life. My heart sometimes desires a partner, but my mind knows that I'm not made for such life.

    13. What condition is your heart in right now?

    Nothing relevant after 12th question.

    14. What does your head say it needs and wants?

    My head says I need achieving my goals of self-development (I define what I want to be, not world neither people) and focusing is the best way of doing it.

    15. What condition is your mind in right now?

    Unstable. I've experienced periods of strong stability and really high level of self-awareness. I miss them, but too much external and internal troubles prevent me for achieving them.

    16. What does your body say it needs and wants?

    It says I should lose weight.

    17. What is the condition of your body right now?

    Easy for being deduced after question 16.

    18. Which do you trust the most in making an important decision between your head, body, and heart? Why?

    Head. I'm my mind, and my mind lives in my head.

    19. Which do you trust the least in making an important decision between your head, body, and heart? Why?

    Body. It's only the container for my mind.

    20. What is your predominant fault?

    I'm too indecisive.

    21. Think of a time when you felt at ease and connected to yourself and others. What did you think about yourself, others, and the entire world during this time?

    I thought I was able to do whatever I would like to do. I saw my life as full of potential, and so myself.
    I doubt I once have feel trully connected to people, except my closest friends. I saw the guys mentioned in my OP as a sort of another versions of myself. I actually do not know people like them, but I have good friends that are not like me. I have a very good ISFJ friend (yeah, I'm able of appreciating her human qualities).
    The world was the substrate for developing my potential.

    22. Think of a time when you felt anxious and disconnected from yourself and others. What did you think about yourself, others, and the entire world during this time?

    My mind does not work properly and this is basically the source of all my troubles.
    People are stupid, sheeps, not aware of themselves or reality, selfish and in general terms, worthless.
    The world is a f*ing tyrant, whorse than the OT God.

    23. What is an addiction or urge that seems to drive you as almost as if you’re not in control? Almost like an alien force that drives or pushes you down.

    None.

    24. What things do you feel you cannot do because they might jeopardize your survival?

    Not sure. Nothing comes clearly to my mind.

    25. What do you need in your life to face your fears?

    Achieving a perfect mental state.

    26. What is your own personal mission statement?

    The kind of person I would like to be: a better version of myself.
    The kind of activities I would like to be in: something not done before, like exploring deep space.
    My personal mission is: to make a trascendeltal impact in the world.
    Finally some pictures for V.I.

    Usual "stay away from me" serious faces.



    More relaxed:


    With a friend:


    What type do you think he could be? Sure about NF, INFj I think.


    I will specially acknowledge any information about misconceptions, errors, etc I could made in my accepting Vs producing reasoning if I finally a LII instead an ILE, as I suspect.

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    I think I've seen you before.

    EDIT: Yup, confirmed, you even speak the way someone on here does/did.

  3. #3
    Creepy-ssss

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I think I've seen you before.

    EDIT: Yup, confirmed, you even speak the way someone on here does/did.
    Who is that user you are speaking about? Maybe I can use him as a reference.

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    Banned Jinxi's Avatar
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    Are you Romanian? Italian? Turkish? Middle-Eastern? Where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Who is that user you are speaking about? Maybe I can use him as a reference.
    Click

    Just checking, no offence.

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    Creepy-ssss

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    Spanish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Click

    Just checking, no offence.
    Which user in that thread, the OP? I suppose you're joking.
    Last edited by ssss; 05-16-2011 at 07:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Which user in that forum, the OP? I suppose you're jocking.
    I'm not, I also see this 'jocking' and I am willing to run through your wall of text there, just to state not to my own nor your surprise that you're the one jocking here unless you have some damn good translator at hand.

    Take it easy though, I can be wrong.

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    Creepy-ssss

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I'm not, I also see this 'jocking' and I am willing to run through your wall of text there, just to state not to my own nor your surprise that you're the one jocking here unless you have some damn good translator at hand.

    Take it easy though, I can be wrong.
    Oh, a (probably) native English speaker criticizing a non native for a mistake. Do you feel better after this?

    I've following this forum for a while before joining, so I know how "useful" your posts tend to be. Get a better entertainment, please. I will not feed your childish mental needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Oh, a (probably) native English speaker criticizing a non native for a mistake. Do you feel better after this?
    Alright, I'm from Spain as well, that ought to make you feel more welcome.

    I've following this forum for a while before joining, so I know how "useful" your posts tend to be.
    Thanks, I'm doing my best.

    Get a better entertainment, please. I will not feed your childish mental needs.
    After someone pins a type on you, I think I am biased here.

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    Welcome!

    Well, I have little doubt of NT and especially T, but I wonder about your arguments for alpha over gamma. I think you're good example of an ILI.

    The way you write comes off to me as more organic and edgy than what I would typically associate with Ti/Ne. It's the combination of the unsystematic "matter-of-fact"ness, "straight-to-the point"ness and touch of edginess really that makes me think gamma NT is more likely. Even though you describe yourself as indecisive and anti-Se/Te, you seem to have that Se/Ni confidence. Not that Ne/Si types can't be confident, but there's just a certain vibe with Se/Ni.

    Honestly tho, I wouldn't be shocked if you were SLI either, they also tend to give off that kind of quiet confidence, and tbh, you're pics and overall Te/anti-Fe vibe just make me lean that way.

    As far as ILE. There isn't anything that makes me think ILE other then that I'm leaning toward NT, and really I don't think it's any more or less likely than LIE.

    final answer: ILI > SLI > LII
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 05-16-2011 at 08:57 PM.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Holy fucking shit it's MC CHRIS IN THE HIZZZZZZZZZZZAY


    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    I remember seeing your posts on other typology forums and we even had a short debate about something. You're definitely a rational type. You weren't willing to accept the definitional frivolity of my leading irrational function. Your thinking seems to display the theoretical slant of alpha NTs. I'd say LII (INTj) is most likely type for you.

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    lii

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    I remember seeing your posts on other typology forums and we even had a short debate about something. You're definitely a rational type. You weren't willing to accept the definitional frivolity of my leading irrational function. Your thinking seems to display the theoretical slant of alpha NTs. I'd say LII (INTj) is most likely type for you.
    Excuse me, but I can't remember the short debate you're talking about. I suppose that forum would be PerC, because I have only been there, where I do not participate since a while, and PerNation (the last before this one).

    Inside the alpha NT group, why do you think I could be an INTj instead an ILE (specially Ti-ILE). This is my big doubt.

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    How do you feel about an LIE typing?

    Just wondering. I'm still trying to figure out if my dad and brother-in-law (pretty sure they're Identicals) are LIE or LII. I've kind of "settled" on LIE for now...But, your pics remind me more of my brother-in-law than they do of my dad. So, maybe they're not Identicals, after all...
    My life's work (haha):
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/blog.php?b=709
    Input, PLEASEAnd thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Welcome!
    Thanks

    Well, I have little doubt of NT and especially T, but I wonder about your arguments for alpha over gamma. I think you're good example of an ILI.
    ILI... That was unexpected (and interesting).

    My understanding (which could be wrong, of course) of alpha quadra Vs gamma could be briefly expressed as the first composed by types which love what they love "as is" (according to their particular interests), whereas the second would be composed by types which like what they like according to its implications (what commonly is expressed as goal-oriented).

    Alpha SFs will enjoy human interactions, whereas alpha NT will enjoy abstract ideas, making them the paradigm of theorizers. ESIs would be social moralists, SEEs "social competitors", LIEs would be "businessmen" and ILIs... I'm not sure how to define them. The insatiable seekers of something better, maybe? Well, these are stereotypes, but I'm using them as a way of pointing the master concepts.

    I consider myself a theorizer who value things for their intrinsic value, not necessarily for its consequences. I do not see myself as a goal-oriented person, and my "career trip" which I commented about my life could be a good example of this. I suppose goal-oriented people would carefully choose a direction and stay on it.

    But interestingly I've fallen in my own trap, because with my definition of the essence of ILIs I'm doubting now if I could be one of them... maybe I have wrong concepts about what alpha Vs gamma means. Although I theorize about whatever I can, I do not put the same value on all things. For example, I'm a bit obsessed about concepts like energy, always thinking in ways of obtaining better sources, better ways of producing it, etc. Could be this a proof of my gamma-ness? Not sure.

    Regardless the gamma nature of ILIs, there are two aspects of this type that I find very difficult for associating myself. SEE as dual? NOOOO way. I have difficult for dealing with extroverts, finding extreme extroverts as unbearable. Add to this their "social competitor" usual behavior which I find... well better not to express with words. The second characteristic is that although I'm always thinking in "future" as I understand the Ni function, I find more likely to be Ne-ego than Ni-ego. I'm not good seeing all the steps that will transform one state of things in another through time. I'm much better "brainstorming"; seeking a lot of possibilities in a more close future.

    The way you write comes off to me as more organic and edgy than what I would typically associate with Ti/Ne. It's the combination of the unsystematic "matter-of-fact"ness, "straight-to-the point"ness and touch of edginess really that makes me think gamma NT is more likely. Even though you describe yourself as indecisive and anti-Se/Te, you seem to have that Se/Ni confidence. Not that Ne/Si types can't be confident, but there's just a certain vibe with Se/Ni.
    I'm usually very confident about my ideas (for example, discussing with my teachers with an insistence that very few people would dare) but I'm always very doubtful about my decisions, my "will". I do not know if this would fit or not in what you describe as "Se/Ni confidence".

    I know I'm a bit temperamental, but I interpret it as nurture effects, due to have been "pushed" by parents and elder brother and my ideas ignored in favor to "what everybody do/thing" regardless this could be irrational, dumb, nonsense...

    Honestly tho, I wouldn't be shocked if you were SLI either, they also tend to give off that kind of quiet confidence, and tbh, you're pics and overall Te/anti-Fe vibe just make me lean that way.
    I see this option very unlikely. I've known several of them and their mindset is very different. Highly theorizers, "think as far and deep as you can" is not a common characteristic or pragmatical deltas.

    As far as ILE. There isn't anything that makes me think ILE other then that I'm leaning toward NT, and really I don't think it's any more or less likely than LIE.

    final answer: ILI > SLI > LII
    But why do you see ILE unlikely? Could you develop this point a bit?
    Last edited by ssss; 05-17-2011 at 07:48 PM.

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    hmm i guess my feeling is LII but not a strong feeling. I came to that typing after reading just a few sentences. LOL. Second choice ILI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    How do you feel about an LIE typing?

    Just wondering. I'm still trying to figure out if my dad and brother-in-law (pretty sure they're Identicals) are LIE or LII. I've kind of "settled" on LIE for now...But, your pics remind me more of my brother-in-law than they do of my dad. So, maybe they're not Identicals, after all...
    Honestly I see this option the less plausible of all NTs for me. They are, in my opinion, the quintessence of the gamma nature. Very purposeful, goal-oriented mindsets, and I'm not like that. I'm not Te leading, sure about this. Maybe ILI, but not LIE.

    If your dad and brother-in-law are so similar, maybe they're quasi-identical. Have you considered that one of them could be LIE and the other ILE? They are strong and weak in the same things, the difference is what they value. A E3 ILE could be very similar to a LIE...

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    I would like to read the opinion of Ti-ILEs about myself. Despite of I thought for a while I was one of them (and I do not discard this) apparently nobody is considering this option...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Honestly I see this option the less plausible of all NTs for me. They are, in my opinion, the quintessence of the gamma nature. Very purposeful, goal-oriented mindsets, and I'm not like that. I'm not Te leading, sure about this. Maybe ILI, but not LIE.

    If your dad and brother-in-law are so similar, maybe they're quasi-identical. Have you considered that one of them could be LIE and the other ILE? They are strong and weak in the same things, the difference is what they value. A E3 ILE could be very similar to a LIE...
    Thanks for your response.

    I don't really see Irrational type for either my dad or my brother-in-law.

    But, this thread is really supposed to be about you...sorry.
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    I think ILI.
    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Another problem with Se is the idea of "act now!" If I had a miriad of different ideas, options, ect, how can I simply choose one without completely considering all of them, with all their implications and depth? I can't. Being forced to act inmediately is like being forced to ignore the ongoing process of thinking and reasoning, whichs "interrupts" the normal flows of my thoughts and cause a sort of mental BSOD...
    Man, that's exactly Ni-Base and you have a very wrong idea what Se-Base is. Neither I can explain it so easily, but perhaps knowing more Se-Base people would make you see the picture. I saw interactions between SEE and ILI, SEEs try to provoke them but the ILIs keep an English calm and "slip by". ILIs are also immune to ridicule and won't get angry or manipulated (thigs like "come on, are you afraid? pussie"). From what I know, SEEs to me are rather like capricious kids who terribly want something but who cares, they can't really push you and they themselves don't want to be taken very seriously.

    And you forget that Duals also correct each other, compensate each other's weaknesses, it's not total acceptance, but it's compatibility. In the above case, the SEE for example will make the ILI more spontaneous, less analyzing every crap, you forgot that you're totally undecided, who you think would be able to make you move but the typical Irrational Extrovert who will simply take your hand and jump with you in the unknown. You need to risk but you can't provide this to yourself, get over it. And no, it's no ESE, ESEs trust resolute people, who can quickly take an informed decision. Not only informed, remember, but resolute, they're Extroverted Rationals (and Si-Creative, too) and don't cope very well with "maybe this, maybe that, let's see", they want to go for the certain as directly as possible.

    To give you an example of duality compensation, im my case (I'm ILE, my gf is SEI): I'm extremely direct and I always claimed that anything, no mater how painful it would be, I will tell (this is normally Fi-PoLR). Not only that I think it's stupid need to hide ("you have cancer, that's a fact, get over it") but also unjust (lying by omission). Well I broke my principle, I mean I still think that, but I make a lot of exceptions in relationship, simply because I know how some bad news disturb the SEI and how unproductive the situation becomes, I also learned to apply this with other people, too. That was only from the top of my head, there are many more things like this.
    ---

    Personal advice: forget about subtypes for a while. Original Socionics dismisses them and they don't have a real place in its rigurous model, it's just a trend. One IMO should first understand the basics (the 16 types), then see about it. I personally found subtypes contradictory here and there and I'm not decided about it.
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    I get an LII impression from what little I've read so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I'm not, I also see this 'jocking' and I am willing to run through your wall of text there, just to state not to my own nor your surprise that you're the one jocking here unless you have some damn good translator at hand.

    Take it easy though, I can be wrong.
    You got the same impression I did based on the photos. I usually don't forget a face, and he does look related to Airborne.

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    In your post you described your function positions as being those of an LII: Fi Role and Se PoLR. Subtype won't change where your functions are.

    I would suggest abandoning the notion of subtyping yourself completely until you've decided on a type. Then, you can compare yourself to your identicals: are you more or less Ti or Ne? That's all that subtype is, it's a way of explaining why people of the same type act differently.

    I'd also advise abandoning accepting/creating subtypes in favour of DCNH, which is a wholly superior system. Each DCNH subtype has type-independant traits, for instance. In addition it subtypes based on the concrete factor of what one's typical group/social role is, especially in regards to one's Identicals.

    Read about it here, and the following example will hopefully make some sense: http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Dcnh

    If you were to get a bunch of SEIs together, for instance, the Creative SEIs would be quietly hanging at the back, taking things in, chipping in with volumes of thought and random ideas as they came to them, the Harmonizing SEIs would be in the middle of the group, chatting with people, with the Dominants drawing attention to themselves and project consistent emotional energy, while the Normalizers would be in the background with the Creatives, being shy.

    Back to typing you:

    The amount of time you spend discussing structural and theoretical things such as your subtype would make me think you're Ti. That's a lot of Ti information, with not much Te. (Compare to the way another user, niffweed writes; or Charles Darwin (an SLI). Te is somewhat similar across both systems, being very exhaustively factual. The facts come first, then the reasoning. Your post is almost pure theory and structure.)

    Though by the same token Azeroffs isolated Te from your post, so you may wish to take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    ILI... That was unexpected (and interesting).

    My understanding (which could be wrong, of course) of alpha quadra Vs gamma could be briefly expressed as the first composed by types which love what they love "as is" (according to their particular interests), whereas the second would be composed by types which like what they like according to its implications (what commonly is expressed as goal-oriented).
    I've never thought about it like that, but it does kinda seem that way.

    Alpha SFs will enjoy human interactions, whereas alpha NT will enjoy abstract ideas, making them the paradigm of theorizers. ESIs would be social moralists, SEEs "social competitors", LIEs would be "businessmen" and ILIs... I'm not sure how to define them. The insatiable seekers of something better, maybe? Well, these are stereotypes, but I'm using them as a way of pointing the master concepts.
    I consider myself a theorizer who value things for their intrinsic value, not necessarily for its consequences. I do not see myself as a goal-oriented person, and my "career trip" which I commented about my life could be a good example of this. I suppose goal-oriented people would carefully choose a direction and stay on it.
    All NTs are natural theorizers who tend to put a lot of emphasis and value into abstract knowledge, but this does seem to point away from LIE at least, who is most practical-minded and application focused when it comes to their focus on theory and knowledge. I would not at all discount an ILI from feeling the same way in this regard though.

    But interestingly I've fallen in my own trap, because with my definition of the essence of ILIs I'm doubting now if I could be one of them... maybe I have wrong concepts about what alpha Vs gamma means. Although I theorize about whatever I can, I do not put the same value on all things. For example, I'm a bit obsessed about concepts like energy, always thinking in ways of obtaining better sources, better ways of producing it, etc. Could be this a proof of my gamma-ness? Not sure.
    That alone isn't very indicative.

    Regardless the gamma nature of ILIs, there are two aspects of this type that I find very difficult for associating myself. SEE as dual? NOOOO way. I have difficult for dealing with extroverts, finding extreme extroverts as unbearable. Add to this their "social competitor" usual behavior which I find... well better not to express with words. The second characteristic is that although I'm always thinking in "future" as I understand the Ni function, I find more likely to be Ne-ego than Ni-ego. I'm not good seeing all the steps that will transform one state of things in another through time. I'm much better "brainstorming"; seeking a lot of possibilities in a more close future.
    I wouldn't say that ESEs are typically any more or less extroverted in the common sense of the word than SEEs are.

    I'm usually very confident about my ideas (for example, discussing with my teachers with an insistence that very few people would dare) but I'm always very doubtful about my decisions, my "will". I do not know if this would fit or not in what you describe as "Se/Ni confidence".
    That's more of just a vibe I got from you. You would probably be better off just ignoring it.
    Ni-base types are characterized by doubt in many descriptions, but this I would say it's characteristic of weak Se in general, and so it could be LII or ILI. Ni-base are decisive/resolute in the sense that they are typically sure about how they see things to be going, but they aren't confident in their ability to affect those things on their own.

    I see this option very unlikely. I've known several of them and their mindset is very different. Highly theorizers, "think as far and deep as you can" is not a common characteristic or pragmatical deltas.
    I'm still not throwing it out, but you do seem to fit into NT.


    But why do you see ILE unlikely? Could you develop this point a bit?
    ILEs tend to be a lot more light-hearted than you make yourself out to be. I might catch some heat for this, but I wouldn't typical call them deep thinkers in the way you make yourself out to be as well. I'd call them breadth-thinkers if that makes sense. Imo, ILEs are typically the most personable NTs despite possibly being a bit socially awkward since they are most directed by what interests and excites them and that tends to rub off on people.


    There are a lot of people on the forum that have been or still are unsure about whether or not they're ILI or LII. One of them could probably help you separate the two better than me. Or, at least I would assume so since they've likely spent a lot of time trying to figure it out.

    have you heard of the Reinin dichotomies?
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 05-18-2011 at 07:26 AM.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    I think ILI.

    Man, that's exactly Ni-Base and you have a very wrong idea what Se-Base is.
    Neither I can explain it so easily, but perhaps knowing more Se-Base people would make you see the picture.
    A likely option in both cases. Maybe I still have not "cleaned" my mind enough about MBTI definitions of jungian functions. I've discussed so much about Ni and Ne, Ti and Te in those forums that although I know they're not the same and I read and reread their socionic definitions, I could still be biased. Need to work more on this.

    ...
    And you forget that Duals also correct each other, compensate each other's weaknesses, it's not total acceptance, but it's compatibility. In the above case, the SEE for example will make the ILI more spontaneous, less analyzing every crap, you forgot that you're totally undecided, who you think would be able to make you move but the typical Irrational Extrovert who will simply take your hand and jump with you in the unknown. You need to risk but you can't provide this to yourself, get over it. And no, it's no ESE, ESEs trust resolute people, who can quickly take an informed decision. Not only informed, remember, but resolute, they're Extroverted Rationals (and Si-Creative, too) and don't cope very well with "maybe this, maybe that, let's see", they want to go for the certain as directly as possible.

    (Example of ILE-SEI interaction...)
    Rejecting SEEs did not make me accepting ESEs. I simply looked about duals as the kind of person who probably would make me happier, feeling more comfortable, without being my type, because I still doubt about the skill of Socionics for predicting how relationships could develop. I still have in mind that I have serious troubles dealing with strong extroverts. But your argument about complementing is convincing and well-constructed...

    Personal advice: forget about subtypes for a while. Original Socionics dismisses them and they don't have a real place in its rigurous model, it's just a trend. One IMO should first understand the basics (the 16 types), then see about it. I personally found subtypes contradictory here and there and I'm not decided about it.
    Good advice. I tend to use them for getting a bit fit, but that could make me prone to overlooking the main points.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    In your post you described your function positions as being those of an LII: Fi Role and Se PoLR. Subtype won't change where your functions are.
    I'm starting to wonder if I could be in fact Fe-PoLR and misunderstood what Se is. This could explain why I feel so bad interacting with big group of "compacted" people, where there's expected that you behave, think and specially feel like them. Maybe I sometimes saw Se pushing where in fact it could be Fe (I know they're very different being rational and irrational functions, but both of them and Te are known for being "pushers"). I hate any behavior that could threaten my individuality, free will, regardless concrete circumstances. Time to dance, come on Mens! Answer: get bent! It's not a matter of shyness, it's a metter that I hate feeling forced to like what I dislike because it's simply expected.

    I would suggest abandoning the notion of subtyping yourself completely until you've decided on a type. Then, you can compare yourself to your identicals: are you more or less Ti or Ne? That's all that subtype is, it's a way of explaining why people of the same type act differently.
    Agree.

    I'd also advise abandoning accepting/creating subtypes in favour of DCNH, which is a wholly superior system. Each DCNH subtype has type-independant traits, for instance. In addition it subtypes based on the concrete factor of what one's typical group/social role is, especially in regards to one's Identicals.

    Read about it here, and the following example will hopefully make some sense: http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Dcnh
    I know it, but I just haven't decide. I'll come back to it if I'm able to solve the main question.

    The amount of time you spend discussing structural and theoretical things such as your subtype would make me think you're Ti. That's a lot of Ti information, with not much Te. (Compare to the way another user, niffweed writes; or Charles Darwin (an SLI). Te is somewhat similar across both systems, being very exhaustively factual. The facts come first, then the reasoning. Your post is almost pure theory and structure.)

    Though by the same token Azeroffs isolated Te from your post, so you may wish to take my comments with a grain of salt.
    I do not feel too much identified with MBTI Te, but I do with Socionics Te alongside Ti. This question could be a problem, because if I'm a LII I would be a Te ignoring, and if I'm an ILI I would be Ti demonstrative. This is a better option for using both of them, but still should not value Ti.

    For example, as you said, I like analyzing structural data, symmetry, etc, but I also put high value in factual data. You can convince me with perfect logic about an issue that if your reasoning does not equally perfectly fit in factual data, I will dismiss it. "Our interpretation of reality depends on our subjective points of view, but reality is in fact independent from us".

    I see facts independent of opinions, therefore I'm always trying to overcome the weakness of subjectivity. I love objectivity, what is represented by external world factual data (Te). Models should adjust themselves to reality, not the opposite.

    Does Sun orbit Earth or vice versa? The question is that if Sun orbits Earth, then Sun orbits Earth, and if Earth orbits Sun, then Earth orbits Sun regardless our opinion about this issue. We must try to discover which one is correct, but we DO NOT MAKE one of the option neither other being correct.

    One user in this forum (Krig I think), pointed in a thread that being LIIs Te ignoring they usually dislike Maths. This is not my case. I love Maths (except Statistics, very boring despite its usefulness). And I loove algorithms, flow charts and similar stuff. When I started in typology I tried to design an algorith of appropiate question and answers for choosing a type, for example. Obviously it did not work, the question is much more complex .
    Last edited by ssss; 05-30-2011 at 09:23 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    All NTs are natural theorizers who tend to put a lot of emphasis and value into abstract knowledge, but this does seem to point away from LIE at least, who is most practical-minded and application focused when it comes to their focus on theory and knowledge. I would not at all discount an ILI from feeling the same way in this regard though.
    Agree, I see LIE as the less likely NT for me.

    I wouldn't say that ESEs are typically any more or less extroverted in the common sense of the word than SEEs are.
    That's true. I was not thinking that ESEs are less extroverted than SEEs. But I had in mind more properties of SEEs that made to me think of them as less probable. Maybe I do not know well this type and/or had misunderstood people as SEEs where they could not be. Good arguments about this have been made by @The Ineffable.

    Ni-base types are characterized by doubt in many descriptions, but this I would say it's characteristic of weak Se in general, and so it could be LII or ILI. Ni-base are decisive/resolute in the sense that they are typically sure about how they see things to be going, but they aren't confident in their ability to affect those things on their own.
    You hit the nail. I know very well that feeling. How would LIIs feel in front of similar circumstances, for comparing?

    And this: I love too much X activity which is developed in Y path. But I have a very concrete Z goal about this struff. I look to the future, analyze and analyze the options and I see myself unable to achieve the Z goal, so I see myself very difficult for maintaining interest in developing X activity (add to this my tendency to be a bit lazy and procrastinate). Would this fit more in ILIs than LIIs, according to your description? This does not fit in "I adapt to whatever I have to face" ILEs, that's sure.

    ILEs tend to be a lot more light-hearted than you make yourself out to be. I might catch some heat for this, but I wouldn't typical call them deep thinkers in the way you make yourself out to be as well. I'd call them breadth-thinkers if that makes sense. Imo, ILEs are typically the most personable NTs despite possibly being a bit socially awkward since they are most directed by what interests and excites them and that tends to rub off on people.
    Breadth-thinkers instead deep thinkers. Good analogy. I'm by no way so social like them. If I stop using "subtype tricks", then all of this diminishes the ILE option.

    There are a lot of people on the forum that have been or still are unsure about whether or not they're ILI or LII. One of them could probably help you separate the two better than me. Or, at least I would assume so since they've likely spent a lot of time trying to figure it out.
    I can't waint for their participation .

    I have to rethink about my vision of alpha-ness and gamma-ness, and myself. Maybe I could be much more gamma than what I have thought. And about the Ni Vs Ti leading, the key aspect. But I have to clean enough my previous assumptions about what Ni is and if I could be Ni leading. I'm still biased with the "Ni is semantic intuition which twist meanings for interpreting as desired; Ne is intuition of possibilities who scan all well-defined options" MBTI description.

    have you heard of the Reinin dichotomies?
    Yes, but I'm not sure of their usefulness.

    Although they're mathematically proved, this does not imply they could even have any useful meaning. For example, you can relate a 3D vector (a type) to the orthogonal set of (i,j,k) base vectors (what we can associate as the functions) or any other base of linear independent vectors, not necessarily orthogonal and/or normalized (dichotomies).

    We can create a set of primitive elements and construct a valid relation with the functions. I see extremely suspicious that exists a type with all dichotomies in *positive* state (ILE) and does not exist its *all negative* counterpart. Apparently only Gulenko made a strong use of them, a socionist who had chosen a divergent way...

    Many of their definitions are very vague, could be interpreted in several ways with opposite consequences. Anyway I'll try:

    Farsighted>Carefree.
    Obstinate>Yielding.
    Cant' decide between static and dynamic.
    Democratic>Aristocratic.
    I would say tactical>strategic, but not sure.
    Constructivist>Emotivist if I understand this dichotomy properly (because nobody like a bad emotion environment, right?).
    Negativist>>Positivist.
    Decisive>Judicious but not too much.
    Serious>Merry.
    I will choose process because I consider myself strongly monotask, but I doubt about several other characteristics of this dichotomy.
    My impulsivity makes me prone to interrupt others, but I like to say what I would like to say at once, without being interrupted. Globally declarer>asker.

    So Reinin dichotomies suggest ILI>LII, but as I said, I do not trust them too much. Anyway I consider this as a clue for adding to the global reasoning.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    You hit the nail. I know very well that feeling. How would LIIs feel in front of similar circumstances, for comparing?
    I can't answer, not having talked to any LIIs, but, from a theoretical point of view:

    ILIs are IPs. LIIs are IJs.

    With respect to life, I think IJs OT1H tend to just keep muscling on at a constant pace, no matter what. They're the consistent slow burners.

    IPs OTOH are much more passive and adaptive, and tend to kind of take a back seat and watch life happening.

    Rick framed it as being a distinction between "civilization" and "wild nature". I think this is an excellent analogy. Irrationals OT1H tend toward taking themselves "as is", like chasing around tantalizing invitations from their particular world (based on their ego functions) and not self-regulating much. Rationals OTOH will tend toward self-regulating.

    As a side-question, how do you see the Quadras in "general"? Can you give me some keywords for the overall feel?

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    Basic impression: LII-Ti.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Whoa. That's a long message. . . .

    From what I "did" read you sound like an INTj or INTp to me. . .

    I'd say that your subtype appears to be D or N to me. . . (the rational subtype verses the irrational subtype in DCNH subtypes.)

    Based on VI though, I'd lean INTp. . . . your serious faces scare the daylights out of me. . .

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    Rick framed it as being a distinction between "civilization" and "wild nature". I think this is an excellent analogy. Irrationals OT1H tend toward taking themselves "as is", like chasing around tantalizing invitations from their particular world (based on their ego functions) and not self-regulating much. Rationals OTOH will tend toward self-regulating.
    Tehcnically you're right about IP Vs IJ temperament. But @Azeroffs has expressed it in a way which I feel strongly identified: ILIs would have the strong desire of regulating themselves for becoming what they think they should be, but also would see themselves unable to do it. I behave like a P, sure (messy, unreliable, etc) but at the same time I'm always considering what I would like to be and how could I become it. My inertia and "lack of enough power" results in myself having to adapt to life, but disliking this result.

    As a side-question, how do you see the Quadras in "general"? Can you give me some keywords for the overall feel?
    This already has been commented in upper posts. I'll quote myself then:

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    My understanding (which could be wrong, of course) of alpha quadra Vs gamma could be briefly expressed as the first composed by types which love what they love "as is" (according to their particular interests), whereas the second would be composed by types which like what they like according to its implications (what commonly is expressed as goal-oriented).

    Alpha SFs will enjoy human interactions, whereas alpha NT will enjoy abstract ideas, making them the paradigm of theorizers. ESIs would be social moralists, SEEs "social competitors", LIEs would be "businessmen" and ILIs... I'm not sure how to define them. The insatiable seekers of something better, maybe? Well, these are stereotypes, but I'm using them as a way of pointing the master concepts.
    Due to these conversations I'm starting to doubt about my alpha-ness. I enjoy all kind of abstract and interesting ideas like an alpha, but the degree of interest varies a lot according to the implications and consequences of these ideas. Irrelevant stuff does not usually get my attention, whereas I can become obsessed with trascendental issues.

  33. #33
    Creepy-ssss

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    Quote Originally Posted by yellow82 View Post
    Whoa. That's a long message. . . .

    From what I "did" read you sound like an INTj or INTp to me. . .

    I'd say that your subtype appears to be D or N to me. . . (the rational subtype verses the irrational subtype in DCNH subtypes.)

    Based on VI though, I'd lean INTp. . . . your serious faces scare the daylights out of me. . .
    Don't worry, once you become part of my "inner circle" you should fear nothing from me

    N sounds plausible, but I'll focus on this after solving the main question.

  34. #34
    I'm a Ti-Te! Skeptic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Due to these conversations I'm starting to doubt about my alpha-ness. I enjoy all kind of abstract and interesting ideas like an alpha, but the degree of interest varies a lot according to the implications and consequences of these ideas. Irrelevant stuff does not usually get my attention, whereas I can become obsessed
    Everyone's got different ideas of what's irrelevant and what's not, even the alphas; you may want to focus on what the alpha quadra may consider irrelevant and the same for the gammas, but using a negatively charged word (like irrelevant, or pushy, etc) to describe a qaudra will produce a negative effect in the way you view that quadra. Instead, you might also dig to the substance of the IE values and try to differentiate between which you personally like or desire more, similar to the above breakdown but try it without any charged words.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    Everyone's got different ideas of what's irrelevant and what's not, even the alphas; you may want to focus on what the alpha quadra may consider irrelevant and the same for the gammas, but using a negatively charged word (like irrelevant, or pushy, etc) to describe a qaudra will produce a negative effect in the way you view that quadra. Instead, you might also dig to the substance of the IE values and try to differentiate between which you personally like or desire more, similar to the above breakdown but try it without any charged words.
    That is... correct. Thanks.

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    I'm starting to wonder if I could be in fact Fe-PoLR and misunderstood what Se is. This could explain why I feel so bad interacting with big group of "compacted" people, where there's expected that you behave, think and specially feel like them. Maybe I sometimes saw Se pushing where in fact it could be Fe (I know they're very different being rational and irrational functions, but both of them and Te are known for being "pushers"). I hate any behavior that could threaten my individuality, free will, regardless concrete circumstances. Time to dance, come on Mens! Answer: get bent! It's not a matter of shyness, it's a metter that I hate feeling forced to like what I dislike because it's simply expected.
    This gives me > which makes me very happy (also I get hints of > here, but I won't go too strong on that part myself just yet)

    I'm not good with that stuff either, when everyone's expected to be simultaneously "happy" or "sad" or whatever, without any real weight behind it... "cheesy" is the most generous term I can think of to describe how I feel and think about that stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    For example, as you said, I like analyzing structural data, symmetry, etc, but I also put high value in factual data. You can convince me with perfect logic about an issue that if your reasoning does not equally perfectly fit in factual data, I will dismiss it. "Our interpretation of reality depends on our subjective points of view, but reality is in fact independent from us".

    I see facts independent of opinions, therefore I'm always trying to overcome the weakness of subjectivity. I love objectivity, what is represented by external world factual data (Te). Models should adjust themselves to reality, not the opposite.

    Does Sun orbit Earth or vice versa? The question is that if Sun orbits Earth, then Sun orbits Earth, and if Earth orbits Sun, then Earth orbits Sun regardless our opinion about this issue. We must try to discover which one is correct, but we DO NOT MAKE one of the option neither other being correct.

    One user in this forum (MegaDoomer I think), pointed in a thread that being LIIs Te ignoring they usually dislike Maths. This is not my case. I love Maths (except Statistics, very boring despite its usefulness). And I loove algorithms, flow charts and similar stuff. When I started in typology I tried to design an algorith of appropiate question and answers for choosing a type, for example. Obviously it did not work, the question is much more complex .
    ...and this gives me > and makes me even more happy

    valuers place more importance on facts and figures than internally organized theories, in general...

    There's a good chance we may be duals

    About math, I personally noticed it being used a little bit more frequently in Gammas than Alphas, and in Democratic quadras a lot moreso than Aristocratic quadras - the flow charts and stuff like that point me to Gamma... when Alphas get a hold of math, it looks a lot less accessible to me (this part about the math should be taken with a bit less weight than the rest of the post maybe, but any info should help)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    There's a good chance we may be duals
    No chance, you're both Intuitive. Time's up for you woofwoofl, btw.
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    No chance, you're both Intuitive. Time's up for you woofwoofl, btw.
    I've gotta hear your reasoning behind this

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    I've gotta hear your reasoning behind this
    priceless slapstick comedy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    I've gotta hear your reasoning behind this
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...937#post771937
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

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