View Poll Results: What the hell?

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  • Maybe perhaps you are an ethical type, since most females are ethical types?

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Thread: A serious question

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    Default A serious question ...

    Why in the world have I only had identical relationships with Females?

    I sware to God that there is another girl in my college history class who thinks exactly the same way as I do and we respond to everything the same exact way. I have already had two classes with this girl, and we do nearly everything alike, including having the weird deja vu moments where we answer questions with the same exact frame of thought and wording things exactly as the other would in answer to the teachers questions.

    Of course, I am only asking because this is not the first female this has happened with me, and I have yet to find an identicle who is male. Freaking weird.

  2. #2

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    I've only known a male identical. But then.... I'm INTp.

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    I know a guy who is so similar to me that it's spooky. I've met him at a dinner-party twice (mutual friend invited both). His wife is also charming (friendly cute, probably ISFj). Being ENTj, I'm not surprised that my identical is a guy. Even our opinion about the wine was similar and we kept agreeing with each other, despite the gender differences and about 10 years, a job and being married with children. Spooky.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
    New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/

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    A more interesting question is why you seem to be so reluctant to accept that you are an ethical type, Reuben. And why are you so determined to decide the matter for yourself, based on polls and questions that are not good enough to give you any reliable input upon which to draw trustworthy conclusions?

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    A more interesting question is why you seem to be so reluctant to accept that you are an ethical type, Reuben. And why are you so determined to decide the matter for yourself, based on polls and questions that are not good enough to give you any reliable input upon which to draw trustworthy conclusions?
    Personality typing pisses me off period, mainly because it is a perfect example of eastern philosophy meeting western philosophy and no one really seem to know much about the diffrences to see the obvious connection [hence, not really considering where the whole '16 types' deal came from], and besides that most people can not even really agree completely on anything type wise for anything to be validated anyhow. You have some clever scientific jocks trying to use science to find connections through brain scan and body type coordination, but what are they doing? Proving reincarnation?

    Sometimes I wonder why I even bother ... except for what I know about philosophy, it all seems pointless to me except for maybe purposes of discussion like this post, poll, and thread.

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    Do you seriously believe that Carl Jung based his psychological types on eastern philosophers?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Do you seriously believe that Carl Jung based his psychological types on eastern philosophers?
    I know for a fact he did, sorry that that is so hard for you to believe or accept ...

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    Sorry, going to pull a Darkside here.

    Autistic.

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    OK then... how do you know?

    The old saying in Law is that the burden of proof is on you. I don't think anyone will believe something just because you say it's so. I've never actually heard this from anyone but you. If it was so "obvious", then at least someone else would have mentioned it somewhere.

    BTW, I'm pretty sure Russia isn't in the West. :/
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catholic Schoolboy
    Sorry, going to pull a Darkside here.

    Autistic.
    Pulling a darkside typically requires the need to 'grow the hell up' and to 'have a decent discussion without resorting to any sort of idiotic mediocracy.'

    This thread just went to hell, again.

  11. #11

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    Okay, sorry doll. I'll be serious for a second. There is nothing to hate about socionics. There is, however much to hate about human nature. Socionics simply gives common (not so common) names to what we all start doing in primary school, ostracizing and sorting our peers, putting them into categories. This is not a science this is a social disorder. Don't get lost in it.

    Again, sorry Love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    OK then... how do you know?

    The old saying in Law is that the burden of proof is on you. I don't think anyone will believe something just because you say it's so. I've never actually heard this from anyone but you. If it was so "obvious", then at least someone else would have mentioned it somewhere.
    The reason why it has not been mentioned much is because to most people it is not obvious that Carl Jung borrowed nearly everything about his personality typing from eastern traditions, except for those who have studied both and realize the connection. In fact, Jung was an avid believer in reincarnation, which included an aspect of karma called 'samsara,' which is the shaping of a person's personality and self through past experiences. Though, he did not call it 'samskara' in his writtings, he refered to it as the 'collective unconscious.

    Page 870 in a book entitled "The Western Heritage Since 1300," the very textbook that the majority of colleges and universitys now use in Western Civilization courses says this:


    "Jung believed the human subconscious contains inherited memories from previous generations. These collective memories, as well as the personal experience of the individual, consistute his or her own soul. Jung regarded human beings in the twentieth century as being alienated from these useful collective memories."


    That is pretty straightforward that Jung believed in reincarnation and samskara, and that his theories are just western style swing-off from that.


    Link to the book: The Western Heritage Since 1300
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/013...lance&n=283155


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    BTW, I'm pretty sure Russia isn't in the West. :/
    When people refer to "Western" or "Eastern" philosophy they are speaking in terms of specific philosophies that origionated in those regions and may no longer be entirely isolated to those regions.

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    Read this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvepalli_Radhakrishnan

    Then scroll down and read the section called "Karma and Freedom." It is at the bottom of page 12 or 98 ...

    http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:1...s&ct=clnk&cd=7

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    Wrong.

    There's a reason Jung considered himself an empiricist. He got his ideas from life's experiences and studying people; this does not include copying others' works. If you can find anything from earlier peoples' works that resemble what Carl Jung described in Psychological Types, then share it. The only reason why people are using Jung now is because his psychological theory was never before recognized. If you read it, you will noticed how detailed Jung describes both the attitude and functional types, and that's from personal experience.

    As for the Collective Unconscious, that's not the same thing as reincarnation. I've never really heard Jung talk about reincarnation, and he never said that that was the basis for the Unconscious. You don't have to be reborn for the Unconscious to work, it just happens, and it even expands (supposively) during your life time.

    If you wanted to claim as a fact that Jung got his ideas from earlier philosophers, than maybe you would have mentioned that he was known to read their books? But you didn't. Pretending that the Collective Unconscious and reincarnation are the same thing, when in definition and practice they are different, does not mean that the '16 types' came from earlier people.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  15. #15
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    The language in Jung's books uses a lot of old world APA pronouns. And by old world I mean anglo old world. I should have checked to see if those were his exact words or revisions, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Wrong.

    There's a reason Jung considered himself an empiricist. He got his ideas from life's experiences and studying people; this does not include copying others' works. If you can find anything from earlier peoples' works that resemble what Carl Jung described in Psychological Types, then share it. The only reason why people are using Jung now is because his psychological theory was never before recognized. If you read it, you will noticed how detailed Jung describes both the attitude and functional types, and that's from personal experience.
    It has nothing to do with copying other people's works, it has to do with what Jung personally believed in and the obvious connections you just totally blew over, which I completely expected.

    As for the Collective Unconscious, that's not the same thing as reincarnation. I've never really heard Jung talk about reincarnation, and he never said that that was the basis for the Unconscious. You don't have to be reborn for the Unconscious to work, it just happens, and it even expands (supposively) during your life time.
    This tells me that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about, and I am serious. It is obvious you know nothing about Jung's implied meaning of the collective unconscious, and I have absolutly no clue why 'cause it is spelled out clear as day.

    If you wanted to claim as a fact that Jung got his ideas from earlier philosophers, than maybe you would have mentioned that he was known to read their books? But you didn't. Pretending that the Collective Unconscious and reincarnation are the same thing, when in definition and practice they are different, does not mean that the '16 types' came from earlier people.
    Page 870 in a book entitled "The Western Heritage Since 1300," the very textbook that the majority of colleges and universitys now use in Western Civilization courses says this:

    "Jung believed the human subconscious contains inherited memories from previous generations. These collective memories, as well as the personal experience of the individual, consistute his or her own soul. Jung regarded human beings in the twentieth century as being alienated from these useful collective memories."
    That is undenighably proof that Jung believed in the hindu concept of samkara right here ... feel free to go ahead and blow right past it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    The language in Jung's books uses a lot of old world APA pronouns. And by old world I mean anglo old world. I should have checked to see if those were his exact words or revisions, etc.
    Jung wrote the good majority of his works in german and what you see in english is mostly translations. If you want to see what he really wrote in his own context, you'll have to check the german.

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    http://www.meta-religion.com/Psychia..._archetype.htm

    It is apparent that Jung drew heavily upon the Eastern religious concept of Atman in the formulation of his concept of the Self. If the Self is for Jung a sort of sun in a solar model around which other characters of the psyche revolve, such as the ego, anima, and shadow, then the archetypes would correspond to the primordial stuff of which the sun and all the other planets are composed.
    Jung elaborated his pivotal theory of the archetype throughout his life's work. In the Eastern tradition of yoga, Jung found corroboration of his own theories. Coward argues that Jung uses the term yoga to mean a way of life involving both psychology and philosophy. Jung's interest "from the beginning was not with Patanjali's technical definitions but with the spiritual development of the personality as the goal of all yoga" (Coward, p. 3). In October of 1932 Jung gave a series of seminars on chakra symbolism of Tantra Yoga entitled A Psychological Commentary on Kundalini Yoga. In an attempt to define samskara, memory trace, to his Western audience, he likens it to "...our idea of heredity...also, our hypothesis of the collective unconscious" (Kundalini, p. 8). In later editions of On the Psychology of the Unconscious, he placed a footnote at the end of a description of the collective unconscious where he describes it as containing the "...legacy of ancestral life, the mythological images: these are the archetypes..." and calls it "a deliberate extension of the archetype by means of the karmic factor...(which is) essential to deeper understanding of the nature of an archetype" (CW, Vol. 7, p. 118n). Elsewhere Jung states that "we may cautiously accept the idea of karma only if we understand it a psychic heredity in the very widest sense of the word. Psychic heredity does exist--that is to say, there is inheritance of psychic characteristics such as predisposition to disease, traits of character, special gifts, and so forth" (CW Vol. 11, p. 845). Jung continured to refute the notion of a personal karma since "the main bulk of life is brought into existence out of sources that are hidden to us. Even complexes can start a century or more before a man is born. There is something like karma" ("Letters", p. 436). Only later in his life did he begin to accept the possibility of a personal karma, more specific in its implications to a person's destiny than the collective attributes he had always assigned to it in helping him see corroboration of his theory of the collective unconscious in other religions. Jung connects the collective unconscious, ancestral memories and as yet unfilled out archetypal images with a sort of collective karma.

    Although Jung openly credits karma theory as influencing his theories of the archetype, Coward aptly points out that little recognition is given to this major Eastern influence by either Jacobi, Jung's sytematizer, or Jungian scholars ...this apparent attempt to hide or ignore the Eastern content in Jung's archetype may be...a fear among Jungians that such an admission would make their already suspect psychology even less acceptable to the mainstream of Western psychology (Coward, p. 98).
    Jung offers a rebuttal to those who would criticize his theory by wondering "what sort of idea my critics would have used to characterize the empirical material in question" (CW Vol. 7, p. 18n). Later in life Jung's dreams gave him evidence pointing to his own reincarnation. It was the evidence of his own dreams, plus those of a close acquaintance, which led to a very positive assessment of Indian karma and rebirth theory in the last years before his death. In Memories, Deams, Reflections, in the chapter entitled, "On Life after Death," Jung states, "I could well imagine that I have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer; that I had to be born again because I had not fulfilled the task that was given to me. When I die, my deeds will follow along with me - that is how I imagine it" (Memories, p. 318). Jung believed that his purpose this lifetime was to bring the shadow to the Christian archetype. In striving throughout his life to portray the image of god as containing both evil and good, Jung sought to bring a union of the opposites to our Western consciousness so as to avoid the physical playing out upon our lives of the Judeo-Christian god's inherent imbalance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    In fact, Jung was an avid believer in reincarnation, which included an aspect of karma called 'samsara,' which is the shaping of a person's personality and self through past experiences.
    Just to clear something up: Samsara (without the "k"), is the endless cycle of rebirth according to Hindu and Buddhist cosmology. We seek escape from it via realizing our connection to out Atman (the personal incarnation of Brahman, ultimately known as attaining Nirvana.

    If there is any coincidence between Jung and Eastern philosophy, it would most probably be in Brahman - not samsara. There are two schools of thought to approaching the concept of Brahman. The most influential was that proposed by Adhi Shankara, in which Brahman was the omnipresent field of which the physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual is a manifestation of. This concept corresponds (roughly) to the "collective unconscious." Samskara (with the "k") refers to remnants of ourselves that pass with us from life to life. If a Hindu were to look at personality theory in the context of his religion, it would be the essence that manifests itself in our personality that passes with us from life to life. Whether or not Jung believed this, I don't know.

    Jung most definitely had at least a rudimentary understanding of these philosophies (read "Man and His Symbols"), but whether or not he lifted his personal convictions from them I have no clue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrummy
    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    In fact, Jung was an avid believer in reincarnation, which included an aspect of karma called 'samsara,' which is the shaping of a person's personality and self through past experiences.
    Just to clear something up: Samsara (without the "k"), is the endless cycle of rebirth according to Hindu and Buddhist cosmology. We seek escape from it via realizing our connection to out Atman (the personal incarnation of Brahman, ultimately known as attaining Nirvana.

    If there is any coincidence between Jung and Eastern philosophy, it would most probably be in Brahman - not samsara. There are two schools of thought to approaching the concept of Brahman. The most influential was that proposed by Adhi Shankara, in which Brahman was the omnipresent field of which the physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual is a manifestation of. This concept corresponds (roughly) to the "collective unconscious." Samskara (with the "k") refers to remnants of ourselves that pass with us from life to life. If a Hindu were to look at personality theory in the context of his religion, it would be the essence that manifests itself in our personality that passes with us from life to life. Whether or not Jung believed this, I don't know.

    Jung most definitely had at least a rudimentary understanding of these philosophies (read "Man and His Symbols"), but whether or not he lifted his personal convictions from them I have no clue.
    In an attempt to define samskara, memory trace, to his Western audience, he likens it to "...our idea of heredity...also, our hypothesis of the collective unconscious" (Kundalini, p. 8).

    If you look at the quote above, the author of the article quotes Jung as actually implementing the concept of samskara as his "collective unconscious," and I completely agree with him in making that implication taking that samskara is what forms a person's 'self' [sometimes called the 'atman'], and that there is a tradition of 16 types in samskara ceremonies. It is such an obvious connection, I do not understand what everyone has a problem with knowing that Jungian type theory had been derived from that.

    http://www.deekaypages.com/samskara/default.htm

    Samskara
    'Samskara' is a Sanskrit word, which means to improve, to purify, to refine and to make perfect. In short, the process by which all impurities in man are removed and positive qualities are developed is known as Samskara. It may be called a sacrament rather than a religious rite or ceremony. The number and methods of Samskaras are discussed in the 'Gruhya Suthras'. Samskaras are popularly known to be 16 in number as in the word 'Shodasha Samskara.'

    Garbhadana, Pumsavana, Seemanthonnayana, Jathakarma, Namakarana, Nishkramana, Annaprashana, Karna Vedhana, Choodakarma (Chowla), Upanayana, Mahanamni, Mahavratha, Upanishadvratha, Godana, Samavarthana and Vivaha - are the 16 Samskaras. Out of these, first eight sacraments are to remove impurities in man caused by the womb and the semen. The next seven rites are to acquire knowledge, these uplift the soul to the spiritual level also. The last one, Vivaha (wedding) or the marriage ceremony makes a man perfect by filling the lacking-portion.
    Totally obvious ...

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    Well, you've managed to establish a very big coincidence. However, what would actually make it obvious is a selection from Jung's work that explicitly says: "These types correspond to the concept of samskara from Eastern philosophy."

    Any less than that, though, and you probably won't win anyone over, at least on this forum.

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    Well, you've managed to establish a very big coincidence. However, what would actually make it obvious is a selection from Jung's work that explicitly says: "These types correspond to the concept of samskara from Eastern philosophy."
    A 'coincidence' is what people call the obvious when they are in doubt about it, something which I would hardly agree with considering that it is more than 'meerly' a coincidence.

    Any less than that, though, and you probably won't win anyone over, at least on this forum.
    Hmmm ... ok ...
    In Memories, Deams, Reflections, in the chapter entitled, "On Life after Death," Jung states, "I could well imagine that I have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer; that I had to be born again because I had not fulfilled the task that was given to me. When I die, my deeds will follow along with me - that is how I imagine it" (Memories, p. 318).
    So, Jung did not write in his book Memories, Deams, Reflections in the chapter entitled On Life after Death on page 318 that he believed in the possibility that he would be reincarnated or had a past life, and that the effects of samskara in this life would travel on to his next life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    A 'coincidence' is what people call the obvious when they are in doubt about it
    Obviously. And sometimes they have very good reasons to be in doubt of what is seemingly obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    In Memories, Deams, Reflections, in the chapter entitled, "On Life after Death," Jung states, "I could well imagine that I have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer; that I had to be born again because I had not fulfilled the task that was given to me. When I die, my deeds will follow along with me - that is how I imagine it" (Memories, p. 318).

    So, Jung did not write in his book Memories, Deams, Reflections in the chapter entitled On Life after Death on page 318 that he believed in the possibility that he would be reincarnated or had a past life, and that the effects of samskara in this life would travel on to his next life?
    Yes, that is what Jung appears to be saying here. However, that's not exactly what I was asking for. I meant an explicit link. e.g., one in which he explicitly refers to these concepts by their Sanskrit names and applies them to his philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrummy
    Yes, that is what Jung appears to be saying here. However, that's not exactly what I was asking for. I meant an explicit link. e.g., one in which he explicitly refers to these concepts by their Sanskrit names and applies them to his philosophy.
    Hmmm, that is hard to do knowing that any specific equvalent he has for any specific point of eastern philosophy he renamed to appeal to wetserners. For example, I seriously doubt there are any instances of Jung calling a soul an "atman" or someone who has had their shadow side fully exposed to them "moska." Yet, what is there to deny about the connection anyhow?

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    You would make a great lawyer. I would love to see that. "Look, come on people! My client is so innocent, it's obvious. I have no idea why none of you see it. Why would I even bother debating you, I can see he's innocent, it's so obvious. I rest my case."




    To put it simply, reincarnation has to do with the individual soul taking on new forms in the physical world. Jung's collective unconscious doesn't have to do with rebirth of the soul, but rather the collective knowledge of human beings on the whole, and their instinctive quality that sinks into our subconscious minds affecting our actions. I've already said this, and you keep on posting that same quote about Jung's CU that describes it in a way that is different from reincarnation. But that's okay, post it again, in case some people missed it the first three times.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I'm starting to question the seriousness of this question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    You would make a great lawyer. I would love to see that. "Look, come on people! My client is so innocent, it's obvious. I have no idea why none of you see it. Why would I even bother debating you, I can see he's innocent, it's so obvious. I rest my case."




    To put it simply, reincarnation has to do with the individual soul taking on new forms in the physical world. Jung's collective unconscious doesn't have to do with rebirth of the soul, but rather the collective knowledge of human beings on the whole, and their instinctive quality that sinks into our subconscious minds affecting our actions. I've already said this, and you keep on posting that same quote about Jung's CU that describes it in a way that is different from reincarnation. But that's okay, post it again, in case some people missed it the first three times.
    If something has a western slant, it is linear ... if an eastern slant, circular. You take an eastern idea, try to make it coherent to a western slant ... what do you get? Well, that is what Jung did, but he still personally believed in eastern ideals.

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