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Thread: Socionics' Quadra titles and Aldous Huxley's Brave New World

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    Default Socionics' Quadra titles and Aldous Huxley's Brave New World

    Discuss.





    http://www.novelguide.com/bravenewwo...ranalysis.html

    Metaphor Analysis



    Caste System— people in Brave New World are genetically divided into five Greek letter categories. The best and brightest intellectuals are Alphas while the Epsilons are the manual laborers with little need for intelligence. The other castes fill jobs somewhere in between.


    Alphas: Wear grey; these are the intellectuals of society. Some examples of professions can be World Controllers (Alpha double Plus), Directors of Hatcheries, and Wardens. Bernard, a psychologist, is also an Alpha.

    Betas: Mulberry colored; these persons are somewhat intelligent and often work as mechanics.

    Gammas: Wear green; often work as machine minders/manipulators, butlers, and other semi-thought-provoking jobs.

    Deltas: Wear khaki, helicopter attendants, cold pressers, screw-cutters, package packers; are mass produced and have no individuality.

    Epsilons: Wear black, can’t read or write, Sewage Workers, liftmen, foundry-workers, carriers, semi-morons.
    http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Brave_New_World/Castes
    (Each caste is split into "plus" and "minus" members.)

    Alphas and Betas

    Alphas and Betas are at the top of the caste system, and perform the more intellectual jobs. Unlike the lower castes, Alphas and Betas are not clones, allowing for more individual personalities. Alphas wear gray, and Betas wear mulberry.


    Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons

    The lower three castes do more menial and standardized work. As a result, they are usually clones. When being decanted, processes such as oxygen deprivation are used. Gammas wear green, Deltas wear khakis, and Epsilons wear black.
    Last edited by EyeSeeCold; 05-03-2011 at 06:36 AM.
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    In Brave New World these titles only exist to indicate a person's abilities.

    In socionics they don't.

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    lol

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    lol
    If you have nothing relevant to add, don't post. Simple as that. If you have an opinion, explain yourself.

    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    why do you laugh laghlagh
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    If you have nothing relevant to add, don't post. Simple as that.
    I found Kassie's comment highly insightful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    If you have nothing relevant to add, don't post. Simple as that. If you have an opinion, explain yourself.
    4w5 sp/sx

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    I don't understand why you guys have to come in here and contaminate shit. All I'm asking for is relevant discussion, if you can't provide that, just don't even post. There are tons of other threads to wank in, seriously.

    Just let the damn thread die on it's own, if it's really that stupid of a topic. I know "Socionics is srs business", "ur butthurt blah blah" but damn, I mean come on? Grow up.
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    I don't really see a basis for discussion in your thread title. It's just a coincidence that both systems use the same terms. I guess there is not much more to say about it.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    I don't really see a basis for discussion in your thread title. It's just a coincidence that both systems use the same terms. I guess there is not much more to say about it.
    More than having the same terms, look at the associations.

    In Brave New World:
    Alpha/Beta are the intellectuals, specifically Alpha. Grounds for / bias.

    Gamma/Delta are the mechanical types, lower-class and industrial. Grounds for / bias.


    Is the similarity not at all apparent?
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    I think NTs are typically thought of as the 'intellectuals,' even though many of them like myself would not describe ourselves that way, since I would rather live my own life, producing my own goods and ideas that give self-fullfilling purpose, and not get hung up on all the potentially great ideas and problems of the world thus cease to be my entirety, etc. But within the NT sphere, it seems like INTj and ENTj are typically seen more as the objectivist-realist intellectuals because of T > N and S hidden agenda. I think xNTps have a greater detachment from realization because of intuition, and F hidden agenda gives more personal consideration to things. They seem like the more creative thinkers of the group, w/ producing logic, more interest in speculating theory and ideas rather than assuredly analyzing and criticizing, N > T, and F hidden agenda. Read INTp and ENTp profiles, and you will often hear a strong theme of imagination and individual flavor.

    Also, I bet you the older xNTps get, the more unsure about things and distanced from objectivism they will get too, because their intuition and producing logic will be that much more mature, and will come across more philosophical. Accepting logic often seems to form into a refined specialization of sciences over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    More than having the same terms, look at the associations.

    In Brave New World:
    Alpha/Beta are the intellectuals, specifically Alpha. Grounds for / bias.

    Gamma/Delta are the mechanical types, lower-class and industrial. Grounds for / bias.


    Is the similarity not at all apparent?
    no, based on what you've presented it is not apparent. i would ask for clarification, but i don't see the point. see, here would have been a perfect opportunity to use Te by connecting your ideas to some kind of external anchor and explaining your thought process. but you didn't. why do you consistently forget to use your creative function?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Is the similarity not at all apparent?
    I don't think this is an appropriate connection. You're forgetting that Gamma also has NTs who are highly intellectual and theoretic for example. And in Brave New World, these titles make a statement about the quality and the abilities of the people. That means Gammas/Deltas just have mechanical jobs because they're not capable of doing something else.

    And why do you think / is connected to an intellectual bias? That would also apply to Alpha-SFs and they're not the typical intellectuals imho.

    Basically, it's just a coincidence and nothing more.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    More than having the same terms, look at the associations.

    In Brave New World:
    Alpha/Beta are the intellectuals, specifically Alpha. Grounds for / bias.

    Gamma/Delta are the mechanical types, lower-class and industrial. Grounds for / bias.


    Is the similarity not at all apparent?
    no, just no
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    More than having the same terms, look at the associations.

    In Brave New World:
    Alpha/Beta are the intellectuals, specifically Alpha. Grounds for / bias.

    Gamma/Delta are the mechanical types, lower-class and industrial. Grounds for / bias.


    Is the similarity not at all apparent?
    If you don't understand how socionics work, then yeah the similarity is uncanny.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    It's pretty cool

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    And why do you think / is connected to an intellectual bias? That would also apply to Alpha-SFs and they're not the typical intellectuals imho.
    What?

    SEIs I know (who aren't me):

    • Psychology
    • Philosophy and ecology
    • Lay philosopher and music theory + multi-instrumentalist and teacher


    I'll also be changing to a philosophy major next semester, if I can.

    The ESE I know is also doing philosophy and English literature.

    I think the less intelligent ones may be less intellectually inclined, but that's intelligence, not type.

    Which is not, of course, to say the intellect makes the intellectual, but I've noticed a consistent pattern with intelligent Alpha SFs I know toward intellectualism.

    In the case of the SEI, there's actually even a Socionics justification. Si+Ti leads to double-external, highly deliberate thinking, coupled with dynamic/negativist (dialectical-algorithmic) leading to spontaneous insights and a need to resolve cognitive dissonance. Philosophy is highly logical, and uses specific language (or symbolic representations), so is of particular interest to any SEI who spends a long enough time thinking... which is most of absolutely anyone of any type with enough intelligence.

    Also, considering the preponderance of Alpha NTs in philosophy, it's little surprise it attracts Alpha SFs like flies to a dead horse

    P.S. inb4gulisILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I don't understand why you guys have to come in here and contaminate shit. All I'm asking for is relevant discussion, if you can't provide that, just don't even post. There are tons of other threads to wank in, seriously.

    Just let the damn thread die on it's own, if it's really that stupid of a topic. I know "Socionics is srs business", "ur butthurt blah blah" but damn, I mean come on? Grow up.
    I was under the impression that this wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

    If, in fact, it is supposed to be taken seriously then I am going to continue on not taking it seriously, since seriously is not something with which I can take this thread.
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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    I don't think this is an appropriate connection. You're forgetting that Gamma also has NTs who are highly intellectual and theoretic for example.
    Yea, but there's a difference between Alpha NT intellect and Gamma NT intellect. What I'm saying is that Alpha NT intellect is the Alpha caste intellect of Brave New World, not one a 1:1 correlation, of course, but that there are similarities.

    I'm curious as to how these two sets of Quadras - one fictional and one non-fictional, came to be this similar, even if only on the surface through denotation.

    And in Brave New World, these titles make a statement about the quality and the abilities of the people. That means Gammas/Deltas just have mechanical jobs because they're not capable of doing something else.
    Yea I know, but I think the assignment of mechanical jobs can be related to , or "Work" in the IM element sense. Whereas the Alphas and Betas of Brave New World do not have such a heavy concentration of industriousness because of /.


    And why do you think / is connected to an intellectual bias? That would also apply to Alpha-SFs and they're not the typical intellectuals imho.

    Basically, it's just a coincidence and nothing more.
    I'd be hard-pressed to believe I'm the only one who's aware of the intellectual bias of / as they relate to the Alphas in Socionics, and also the factory & mass production machinist biases of / as they relate to Gamma and Delta.


     
    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    no, based on what you've presented it is not apparent. i would ask for clarification, but i don't see the point. see, here would have been a perfect opportunity to use Te by connecting your ideas to some kind of external anchor and explaining your thought process. but you didn't. why do you consistently forget to use your creative function?
    Why do you have to make it personal? My type is not the topic of this thread. If you want an explanation of the OP, just ask. If you have any ideas of your own, based on the thread's title, put them down.



    Quote Originally Posted by borderline View Post
    no, just no
    Do you have any expertise with either Socionics or Brave New World? Then speak your piece and contribute. Don't condescend and spam my thread like an asshole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
    I was under the impression that this wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
    Why? Because I'm the thread's creator? Because of the topic? Because of the content? Because of the subsequent joke posts after the OP?

    Come on dude, use your better judgment. In any case, you're either discriminating me for past situations or you're being a sheep following the crowd. Don't be an ass.

    If, in fact, it is supposed to be taken seriously then I am going to continue on not taking it seriously, since seriously is not something with which I can take this thread.
    So be it, but if you won't contribute productively to the topic, I'd like it if you not fill this thread with BS.
    Last edited by EyeSeeCold; 05-04-2011 at 12:55 AM.
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  19. #19
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    This thread comes across as a joke because it's absurd, and filled with half-baked and abandoned reasoning.

    Like the Epsilon caste. You're treating them as imaginary because they don't fit your bizarre correlation.

    Alpha-Beta-Gamma-Delta are the first four letters of the Greek alphabet. It's just another way counting first-second-third-fourth. That is the extent of the similarity, that they're numbered using Greek letters.

    The castes are a numbered hierarchy. As number goes up, intelligence and thus prescriptive worth of the person goes down, until you have the Fifth/Epsilon caste cleaning up your shit in the sewers.

    The Quadras are numbered for reasons I'm not entirely clear on. The number doesn't really mean anything.

    EDIT

    Also according to your apparent reasoning, it should be significant that we have terms like "Alpha" and "Beta" male!!!! But it's not. Why have you neglected this?

    Are you happy that I've seriously treated why this honestly seems like a joke? Can we all move on with our lives now?

  20. #20
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    Conclusions I see off the top of my head: you're really excited and hyperactive that you just had a deceptively good idea.

    Or you're trolling. If so, bravo, sir, bravo. Your capacity for trolling is unsurpassed.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    This thread comes across as a joke because it's absurd, and filled with half-baked and abandoned reasoning.
    I do think things would have developed differently if I added my own viewpoint, but I didn't want to influence anyone. Although I already have a bad reputation and people after me people who disagree with me.

    Like the Epsilon caste. You're treating them as imaginary because they don't fit your bizarre correlation.
    Actually, I thought Epsilon was too undeveloped as an entity and basically fit within Delta caste.

    Alpha-Beta-Gamma-Delta are the first four letters of the Greek alphabet. It's just another way counting first-second-third-fourth. That is the extent of the similarity, that they're numbered using Greek letters.

    The castes are a numbered hierarchy. As number goes up, intelligence and thus prescriptive worth of the person goes down, until you have the Fifth/Epsilon caste cleaning up your shit in the sewers.

    The Quadras are numbered for reasons I'm not entirely clear on. The number doesn't really mean anything.
    And you have nothing to say on the associations of intelligence and the industrial workforce?

    EDIT

    Also according to your apparent reasoning, it should be significant that we have terms like "Alpha" and "Beta" male!!!! But it's not. Why have you neglected this?
    Because Brave New World was my focus; as I was reading into it, I was reminded of Socionics. It had nothing to do with the general namesakes of Alpha-Beta-Gamma-Delta.

    Also, appeal to ridicule. The concepts of social domination, as they relate to the Greek numerals, are definitely not as relevant compared to the context of Brave New World.

    Are you happy that I've seriously treated why this honestly seems like a joke? Can we all move on with our lives now?
    That you are one less spamming jokester - yes I'm glad, but regardless of what has been demonstrated thus far, I'd still like to have discussions on the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    Conclusions I see off the top of my head: you're really excited and hyperactive that you just had a deceptively good idea.

    Or you're trolling. If so, bravo, sir, bravo. Your capacity for trolling is unsurpassed.
    Not trolling. And yeah the idea for the thread was initiated by a spark.
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  22. #22
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    You don't have a bad reputation. You just look like you're not an ILI.

    Threads like this really do not help with that image. You neither offer lengthy, well thought out, factually-grounded discourses like niffweed, nor interesting stastical studies like ragnar. Instead you produce silly posts, and random splat-ideas like this thread.

    You surely have personally compelling reasons for believing you are ILI, or else you would not believe it. Perhaps share them with us? Expect to be told you're mistaken, or that you're retarded. Ignore the latter, and any of the former who are rude or pushy about their opinion, and try and listen to the voices of reason.

    Anyway, I'm not going to debate your type. I don't have an especially strong opinion, but I do consider it either unlikely that you're a Gamma (or any Serious type), or my understanding of the Gamma quadra is flawed or overly limited. Either is a reasonable possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Actually, I thought Epsilon was too undeveloped as an entity and basically fit within Delta caste.
    Which is where your correlation becomes absurd. Mental ability is not related to Quadra! I went to a selective school, and we had an even mix of all quadras at all levels of intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    And you have nothing to say on the associations of intelligence and the industrial workforce?
    I do indeed, and that is that it's got nothing to do with quadra.

    Would you expect by this to have university populated by Alphas and Betas vastly outnumbering Gammas and Deltas? If you've been to university, this is patently absurd. Similarly would you expect a factory to be populated by Gammas and Deltas vastly in excess of Alphas and Betas?

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Because Brave New World was my focus; as I was reading into it, I was reminded of Socionics. It had nothing to do with the general namesakes of Alpha-Beta-Gamma-Delta.

    Also, appeal to ridicule. The concepts of social domination, as they relate to the Greek numerals, are definitely not as relevant compared to the context of Brave New World.
    My point was that it's purely a coincidence. It's just one you're giving arbitrary meaning to. The case of Alpha-beta-gamma-omega males is another coincidence... but one that you didn't give any meaning to.

    Even more importantly, it has more in common with the castes than the castes do with quadras. Castes and hierarchical positions share in common hierarchy. The Quadras are denoted as they are to indicate a progression (I think, but don't quote me on that), not a hierarchy.

    The only significance is that it's a trait of our language that we borrow from Greek sometimes to denote hierarchies or orders.

    I'm sorry if I'm over-literalising your arguments. I'm tired and my brain is getting a bit sloppy.

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    ...occasionally, no matter how smart you are, you come upon an idea with very little external validity. No matter how valuable it is to you personally, it just doesn't work with other people. It's like writing a poem that you adore, but which will never be appreciated beyond your own mind, because it just doesn't work for people.

    This thread is an instance of that situation. Obviously, ESC finds an interesting connection between these two. But for whatever reason (my hypothesis is that it is principally the relationship between the value-ordered Huxley and the value-neutral Ashura), no one else sees this connection.

    No point in getting angry about it, ESC. Write another poem.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Why? Because I'm the thread's creator? Because of the topic? Because of the content? Because of the subsequent joke posts after the OP?
    Because of the content. At first, it looked to me like you'd drawn an extremely tenuous connection between a pseudoscientific theory and a neat little book. I mean, the only correlation I'm seeing here is that, by coincidence, Huxley made his Deltas and Gammas the laborers (Which you seem to equate with the immediate, actionable "work" in the style of Gamma NTs) and made his Alphas and Betas the intellectuals (which is then equated to the wide-eyed, highly optimistic, what-if thought experiments carried out by Alpha NTs).

    The question that would immediately follow this would be, "Oh! Well, ok, then what?" followed by a rolling-of-the-hand gesture to signal the speaker to continue. In other words, just... what are we meant to discuss here? There isn't much at all to go on.

    Come on dude, use your better judgment. In any case, you're either discriminating me for past situations or you're being a sheep following the crowd. Don't be an ass.
    What past situations?

    If it's because I'm one of those people who believe you to be LII I can tell you I don't do it because I hate you or anything like that. I just find that your posting style resembles the neat, sterile, cold style reminiscent of labcoat or Krig the Viking and less like the long, meandering, gently-flowing thought streams you see in k0rpsey or Ashton. Not a great way to go about typing, I know, but that's all I really have to go on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    no, based on what you've presented it is not apparent. i would ask for clarification, but i don't see the point. see, here would have been a perfect opportunity to use Te by connecting your ideas to some kind of external anchor and explaining your thought process. but you didn't. why do you consistently forget to use your creative function?
    Uncle Carl has the answer.

    Introverted thinking is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity.

    But just as little as it is given to extraverted thinking to wrest a really sound inductive idea from concrete facts or ever to create new ones, does it lie in the power of introverted thinking to translate its original image into an idea adequately adapted to the facts. For, as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its phantasy image in freedom. In such a case, it will be impossible for the presented idea to deny its origin from the dim archaic image. There will cling to it a certain mythological character that we are prone to interpret as 'originality', or in more pronounced cases' as mere whimsicality; since its archaic character is not transparent as such to specialists unfamiliar with mythological motives. The subjective force of conviction inherent in such an idea is usually very great; its power too is the more convincing, the less it is influenced by contact with outer facts. Although to the man who advocates the idea, it may well seem that his scanty store of facts were the actual ground and source of the truth and validity of his idea, yet such is not the case, for the idea derives its convincing power from its unconscious archetype[.]

    This thinking easily loses itself in the immense truth of the subjective factor. It creates theories for the sake of theories, apparently with a view to real or at least possible facts, yet always with a distinct tendency to go over from the world of ideas into mere imagery. Accordingly many intuitions of possibilities appear on the scene, none of which however achieve any reality, until finally images are produced which no longer express anything externally real, being 'merely' symbols of the simply unknowable. It is now merely a mystical thinking and quite as unfruitful as that empirical thinking whose sole operation is within the framework of objective facts.

    In the last analysis, introverted thinking arrives at the evidence of its own subjective being, while extraverted thinking is driven to the evidence of its complete identity with the objective fact. For, while the extravert really denies himself in his complete dispersion among objects, the introvert, by ridding himself of each and every content, has to content himself with his mere existence.

    The introverted thinking type is characterized by a priority of the thinking I have just described. Like his extraverted parallel, he is decisively influenced by ideas; these, however, have their origin, not in the objective data but in the subjective foundation.

    With him, everything tends to disappear and get concealed. His judgment appears cold, obstinate, arbitrary, and inconsiderate, simply because he is related less to the object than the subject. One can feel nothing in it that might possibly confer a higher value upon the object; it always seems to go beyond the object, leaving behind it a flavour of a certain subjective superiority... Invariably the object has to submit to a certain neglect; in worse cases it is even surrounded with quite unnecessary measures of precaution. Thus it happens that this type tends to disappear behind a cloud of misunderstanding, which only thickens the more he attempts to assume, by way of compensation and with the help of his inferior functions, a certain mask of urbanity, which often presents a most vivid contrast to his real nature. Although in the extension of his world of ideas he shrinks from no risk, however daring, and never even considers the possibility that such a world might also be dangerous, revolutionary, heretical, and wounding to feeling, he is none the less a prey to the liveliest anxiety, should it ever chance to become objectively real. That goes against the grain. When the time comes for him to transplant his ideas into the world, his is by no means the air of an anxious mother solicitous for her children's welfare; he merely exposes them, and is often extremely annoyed when they fail to thrive on their own account. The decided lack he usually displays in practical ability, and his aversion from any sort of re[accent]clame assist in this attitude. If to his eyes his product appears subjectively correct and true, it must also be so in practice, and others have simply got to bow to its truth. Hardly ever will he go out of his way to win anyone's appreciation of it, especially if it be anyone of influence. And, when he brings himself to do so, he is usually so extremely maladroit that he merely achieves the opposite of his purpose. In his own special province, there are usually awkward experiences with his colleagues, since he never knows how to win their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, head-strong, and quite unamenable to influence.

    In thinking out his problems to the utmost of his ability, he also complicates them, and constantly becomes entangled in every possible scruple. However clear to himself the inner structure of his thoughts may be, he is not in the least clear where and how they link up with the world of reality. Only with difficulty can he persuade himself to admit that what is clear to him may not be equally clear to everyone. His style is usually loaded and complicated by all sorts of accessories, qualifications, saving clauses, doubts, etc., which spring from his exacting scrupulousness. His work goes slowly and with difficulty. Either he is taciturn or he falls among people who cannot understand him; whereupon he proceeds to gather further proof of the unfathomable stupidity of man. If he should ever chance to be understood, he is credulously liable to overestimate.

    To people who judge him from afar he appears prickly, inaccessible, haughty; frequently he may even seem soured as a result of his anti-social prejudices. He has little influence as a personal teacher, since the mentality of his pupils is strange to him. Besides, teaching has, at bottom, little interest for him, except when it accidentally provides him with a theoretical problem. He is a poor teacher, because while teaching his thought is engaged with the actual material, and will not be satisfied with its mere presentation.

    With the intensification of his type, his convictions become all the more rigid and unbending. Foreign influences are eliminated; he becomes more unsympathetic to his peripheral world, and therefore more dependent upon his intimates. His expression becomes more personal and inconsiderate and his ideas more profound, but they can no longer be adequately expressed in the material at hand. This lack is replaced by emotivity and susceptibility. The foreign influence, brusquely declined from without, reaches him from within, from the side of the unconscious, and he is obliged to collect evidence against it and against things in general which to outsiders seems quite superfluous. Through the subjectification of consciousness occasioned by his defective relationship to the object, what secretly concerns his own person now seems to him of chief importance. And he begins to confound his subjective truth with his own person.

    The thinking of the introverted type is positive and synthetic in the development of those ideas which in ever increasing measure approach the eternal validity of the primordial images. But, when their connection with objective experience begins to fade, they become mythological and untrue for the present situation. Hence this thinking holds value only for its contemporaries, just so long as it also stands in visible and understandable connection with the known facts of the time. But, when thinking becomes mythological, its irrelevancy grows until finally it gets lost in itself. The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed. The various measures of self-defence, the curious protective obstacles with which such people are wont to surround themselves, are sufficiently familiar, and I may, therefore, spare myself a description of them. They all serve as a defence against 'magical' influences; a vague dread of the other sex also belongs to this category.

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    Do they have a forum about Jung's Psychological Types? I can't find anything.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Yea, but there's a difference between Alpha NT intellect and Gamma NT intellect. What I'm saying is that Alpha NT intellect is the Alpha caste intellect of Brave New World, not one a 1:1 correlation, of course, but that there are similarities.
    i agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsey View Post
    Hmmmmm...
    LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    What?

    SEIs I know (who aren't me):

    • Psychology
    • Philosophy and ecology
    • Lay philosopher and music theory + multi-instrumentalist and teacher


    I'll also be changing to a philosophy major next semester, if I can.
    Dude, you'll love it. Philosophy was exactly what I needed in college. I didn't have a clue how I fit into the universe or how to make sense of everything. I doubted everything to the point of near nihilism and just kind of floated around from thing to thing that seemed interesting at the moment, but philosophy gave me a lot of clarity about what Truth was and how to go about establishing it. Just having that emphasis on using reason to find eternally true things (or at least highly certain things), made me ok with not having any overarching plans in life because no matter where I found myself I could count on having the big questions resolved (note I didn't say answered) that had thrown me into chaos. Ultimately for me, philosophy was always about attaining a means of living the good life as I sought to define it. I wasn't really cut out for extending the scope of it into the super crazy abstract realms where the focus is today, like philosophy of mind and so on.

    Philosophy brought me peace and wisdom, yo.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Do you have any expertise with either Socionics or Brave New World? Then speak your piece and contribute. Don't condescend and spam my thread like an asshole.
    i've read and studied Brave New World, it's one of my favorite novels. and i've been reading/studying socionics since '06. i'm not an "expert" lol, but who needs to be to know that these correlations are retarded? for one, Greek letters are super common for people to use as labels to denote class or group, so it hardly even makes coincidence status. two, in BNW they were used to define groups of people by their physical and mental capacity, NOT their personality or information metabolism. if you recall, people's jobs were predetermined by what caste they were created to be in, but the socionics types of the people within each group could vary greatly.

    seriously, this thread is just silly.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by borderline View Post
    seriously, this thread is just silly.
    Too much alcohol in his surrogate or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by borderline View Post
    two, in BNW they were used to define groups of people by their physical and mental capacity, NOT their personality or information metabolism. if you recall, people's jobs were predetermined by what caste they were created to be in, but the socionics types of the people within each group could vary greatly.
    Exactly, that's what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Too much alcohol in his surrogate or whatever.
    Insider joke.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Dude, you'll love it. Philosophy was exactly what I needed in college. I didn't have a clue how I fit into the universe or how to make sense of everything. I doubted everything to the point of near nihilism and just kind of floated around from thing to thing that seemed interesting at the moment, but philosophy gave me a lot of clarity about what Truth was and how to go about establishing it. Just having that emphasis on using reason to find eternally true things (or at least highly certain things), made me ok with not having any overarching plans in life because no matter where I found myself I could count on having the big questions resolved (note I didn't say answered) that had thrown me into chaos. Ultimately for me, philosophy was always about attaining a means of living the good life as I sought to define it. I wasn't really cut out for extending the scope of it into the super crazy abstract realms where the focus is today, like philosophy of mind and so on.

    Philosophy brought me peace and wisdom, yo.
    Wow, now I really want to take philosophy.

    Re the original post, I read A Brave New World awhile back. I found it rather nihilistic and depressing, though I don't think I knew the definition of nihilism at the time. All I knew is that finishing it made me feel kinda sick and confused about life.

    My memory of it goes something like, "Lots of confusing numbers. Dr. So and So examines a test tube. We live in a Giver-esque society. Creepy New Age Girl, with her creamy white skin, exists like some kind of living doll in a bubble suit. The scrawny Indian in the Cupboard was mesmerized with Baby Spice after living a nomadic existence with lots of normally aging hags. We party it up and take lots of Soma. Bernard flies around on a spaceship. Now she screams. Or he screams. Someone screams. Someone looks up at the sky. Oh the nihilism of life! The end."

    At the time I was reading it, I was still learning Socionics, so the quadra name associations kept popping up in my head. I couldn't help it. I totally understand if that happened to you. After Socionics, reading about the light spectrum is a pain, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Wow, now I really want to take philosophy.

    Re the original post, I read A Brave New World awhile back. I found it rather nihilistic and depressing, though I don't think I knew the definition of nihilism at the time. All I knew is that finishing it made me feel kinda sick and confused about life.

    My memory of it goes something like, "Lots of confusing numbers. Dr. So and So examines a test tube. We live in a Giver-esque society. Creepy New Age Girl, with her creamy white skin, exists like some kind of living doll in a bubble suit. The scrawny Indian in the Cupboard was mesmerized with Baby Spice after living a nomadic existence with lots of normally aging hags. We party it up and take lots of Soma. Bernard flies around on a spaceship. Now she screams. Or he screams. Someone screams. Someone looks up at the sky. Oh the nihilism of life! The end."

    At the time I was reading it, I was still learning Socionics, so the quadra name associations kept popping up in my head. I couldn't help it. I totally understand if that happened to you. After Socionics, reading about the light spectrum is a pain, too.
    Personally, I really enjoyed Brave New World. It was all about outcasts and weirdos trying to find a kind of individuality in a perfect "conformist" world. It had some neat ideas about the future and an expectedly depressing ending.

    Also there was the part where the Delta clone children go to watch the Savage's mother die. That was possibly one of the best "Chiller" moments I've read in a novel.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

  34. #34
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Philosophy brought me peace and wisdom, yo.
    lawl keep reading
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  35. #35
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    Brave New World was sick. I wanna try Soma.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  36. #36
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I just hope one of these dystopian scenarios comes to pass in my lifetime so i can play hero and kill the government. Fighting against a swirling morass of demi-converts and part-time conformists is confusing and demoralizing; I want someone to shoot at.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  37. #37
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    lawl keep reading
    lol

  38. #38
    expired Lotus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Brave New World was sick. I wanna try Soma.
    mhm
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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