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Thread: The Nature of Se, Involvement, etc

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    Creepy-female

    Default The Nature of Se, Involvement, etc

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    Last edited by female; 07-09-2015 at 11:00 AM.

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    That's some abstract wall of text laden writing there. Thanks, anyway.

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    Well, here's how my brain works:

    It's like I have no ego. My ex said that's why he was attracted to me. I tend to see things very objectively actually, but I'm constantly emotional and I process them very subjectively. So I'm really aware of how my essence lines up with other people's in a romantic sense, I just am paying attention to that reality more than most other people, like a typical IEI.

    It's like I don't really have any actual thoughts of my own. =( I don't really feel unique. Other people tell me I'm weird, but I mostly feel like that 'I'm in the heart of everything' like how you described Betas awhile back. I just feel like I'm sort of stuck in the center of it all, in an ubiquitous fashion.

    My creative shtick is more about blending things that were already created, together, rather then coming up with something that is really new. I'm trying to be like purely innovative, like create a song like Fefe Dobson out of my 'own pure alignment', but it's just not natural for me, because I don't think that's how my essence really works. I think that's more how Se is, my dual-seeking function.

    You said my story was original but to me it was just a combination of Buffy, Xena, Charmed and every fantasy magic adventure show I ever seen. I even repeated some of the dialogue lol. But somehow despite of that, it still came out original even if it was just a mixture of other people's shit.

    It's akin to the Ni head up in the air thing.
    Funnily enough I don't really feel like I'm in my head enough. I think that's what you were alluding to when you said 'head up in the air' but that doesn't mean I'm too much in my head, it probably means I'm not in my head enough. (Which makes sense why I like that Fefe Dobson song so much, because I already act like how she doesn't want people to act like, too much in their heads lol) And that sorta thing bothers me about other people anyway, like the non-romanticism of politicians and professors and other 'head-y' people.

    I feel like I'm a rocket that's blasted out everywhere in all of reality, and I kinda just want to develop my own personal ego to survive in the world. Instead I feel like little kid's playdough that's just chopped up everywhere. I'm hyperaware of how mortal I am, and how much of a 'body' I have and if it gets destroyed I die, so the sort of artistic egotistic art has always been rather balancing for me. The right kind of make believe just gives me a sense of direction, otherwise I feel so body-vulnerable.

    I've always felt so dead when I read things about how we're all one, probably because it's too much like my own essence perhaps, and there's like no yin-yang balance so it just feels off. Idk. But then I look at something unique and colorful, and it's not something I would create myself- but the egoic specialness of it is attractive to me, and it gives me this natural confidence. Cause I'm just a blah raw human goo that just wants love. That is not special or interesting in the slightest but that's okay. I mean I kinda make fun of that in my stories anyway, how everybody wants to be special and unique and be rewarded for doing something all bizarre, but all of that is evil and narcissistic like, 'omg look at meee I'm so unique and talented!!' But the Se from that does balance me. I probably wouldn't have gotten through high school if it weren't for the narcissistic brilliance of Joss Whedon himself. ((who is most likely an IEI , but so good at it that he can mock Se good enough for me to absorb lol. Cuz it's really the two sides of the same coin type thing anyway))

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    You might be rolling your eyes and "d'oh"ing at this, thinking "Well, of course things are different, it's a different time", or I don't know. But it's just something that I've learned that I perceive. Perceptions are so information heavy that the Se person doesn't question what they're experiencing directly. That's what's annoying about Ne people. They offer an alternate viewpoint, but it's just this random alternate thought. It's not connected to anything. That's why Se and Ne conflict.
    I like this. This is probably the most 'right on' thing that you said , not that everything else you said was false, but you pretty much nailed it there. Ne valuers jump around too much when I just want to like focus and zero in on this one thing lol. But nothing exists in a vacuum. If it's a Fe Ne-valuer, it usually works out well anyway. And if it's an enfp, the ep-ip energy is smooth enough where we get along okay as long as we don't try to get too deep and personal. But yes if I'm getting 'pure Ne' in some way or another.... it's not exactly annoying or hurtful (not my polr) but it's just rather cumbersome and disappointing.

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    Intelligence is consciousness, which is not limited to any particular function. The function is just the direction consciousness is focused.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Dolphin you're making me think I'm SLE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    (hint: I imagine Ti can help, at least for dualized SLEs... (Ti reifies Ni conceptions into rules for how to interpret the self: if action x, then internal state y))
    Can any SLE comment on this?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Can any SLE comment on this?
    I'm speaking in behalf of Ezra, yes you can be SLE Gilly for this trained dolphin's novelistic tendencies is what appeals to us SLEs - Ezra knows where it is at.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I really like Silverchris's characterization of how Ni and Se work, and it's actually bringing a lot of things into focus for me, particularly with regards to my current situation. The thing is, I like to use Ni in that sense, to be aware of the underlying forces; I am aware of them, on some level, naturally, but they're only like small blips or just gut feelings, I don't really process them out fully; most of the time they go unnoticed and it's not until something pans out that I go "Jesus, I totally saw this coming, and I totally did it anyways. The fuck is wrong with me?" It's especially hard because I always wind up making the same mistakes, my direct impulses to just do something are so much stronger than either my inhibitions or my conscious realization that I always wind up losing and making the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

    Part of it is, unlike a lot of people I know, I actually think in words, like my thoughts are actually like a stream of consciousness book; a lot of Ni egos I've talked to say that they are the opposite, that everything is sort of like these hazy globs they kind of jump to and the words just come to them when they have to say them. So to me, to really proces all of this, I have to interpret it in my fully fleshed-out inner monologue, and even then my recognition of certain "archetypal" situations, motivations of others, etc, is based on re-checking my little inkling of intuition with external factors. So I try, I try really hard, but its just too much to keep in my head without sort of roaming around like a zombie, and I run into so many goddamn internal conflicts and personal conundrums when trying to sort through all of this that I just almost can't be bothered because it totally gets in the way of keeping all of my shit together and doing what I need to do. So I take the hits when I'm conflicted, because I have to take care of my shit, but it's not enough, it's never enough, so what the fuck am I supposed to do.

    So I dunno. I fucking try but its just too goddamn much to keep up with, at least with anything resembling true integrity, and it's easier for me to just plow through. I keep my finger on the pulse, because it's there whether I ignore it or not, and I have to feel it, because otherwise I'm nothing but a robot, but I can't keep up with it all, it just becomes this constant balancing act that
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I really like Silverchris's characterization of how Ni and Se work, and it's actually bringing a lot of things into focus for me, particularly with regards to my current situation. The thing is, I like to use Ni in that sense, to be aware of the underlying forces; I am aware of them, on some level, naturally, but they're only like small blips or just gut feelings, I don't really process them out fully; most of the time they go unnoticed and it's not until something pans out that I go "Jesus, I totally saw this coming, and I totally did it anyways. The fuck is wrong with me?" It's especially hard because I always wind up making the same mistakes, my direct impulses to just do something are so much stronger than either my inhibitions or my conscious realization that I always wind up losing and making the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

    Part of it is, unlike a lot of people I know, I actually think in words, like my thoughts are actually like a stream of consciousness book; a lot of Ni egos I've talked to say that they are the opposite, that everything is sort of like these hazy globs they kind of jump to and the words just come to them when they have to say them. So to me, to really proces all of this, I have to interpret it in my fully fleshed-out inner monologue, and even then my recognition of certain "archetypal" situations, motivations of others, etc, is based on re-checking my little inkling of intuition with external factors. So I try, I try really hard, but its just too much to keep in my head without sort of roaming around like a zombie, and I run into so many goddamn internal conflicts and personal conundrums when trying to sort through all of this that I just almost can't be bothered because it totally gets in the way of keeping all of my shit together and doing what I need to do. So I take the hits when I'm conflicted, because I have to take care of my shit, but it's not enough, it's never enough, so what the fuck am I supposed to do.

    So I dunno. I fucking try but its just too goddamn much to keep up with, at least with anything resembling true integrity, and it's easier for me to just plow through. I keep my finger on the pulse, because it's there whether I ignore it or not, and I have to feel it, because otherwise I'm nothing but a robot, but I can't keep up with it all, it just becomes this constant balancing act that
    Even though you seem to play around with your identity and it seems very blurred in the sense that you dont have a fucking clue what you are. Expect for a moment and then its switched to the opposite. But dont you worry im the same. And i related to every word you just uttered from your cute mouth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creep Of a beast View Post
    Even though you seem to play around with your identity and it seems very blurred in the sense that you dont have a fucking clue what you are. Expect for a moment and then its switched to the opposite. But dont you worry im the same. And i related to every word you just uttered from your cute mouth
    Ya hace dos millenios desde que se mataron los huerfanos serviles de la peninsula de florida. Desde entonces, nadie ha dicho nada. Ni usted ni nadie. Aun si fueron ellos los hijos del matriarco, no significaria nada. O sea, en el ano Mil quinientos cinco, habia un grupo de soldados que dijo que no: no hubiera el almo; no hubiera el amor. Estos ideas falsos existen por el placer del rey. Existen los restos por sufrir. Desde entonces, cambia todo a la vez que cambia nada. todavia existimos por sufrir--si no, porque? No hay razon otro. Esto es. Lo mas pronto que acceptamoslo, lo mas facil que frentemos con nuestro destina: lo de vivir quemarnos en el los fuegos insufribles del infierno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Ya hace dos millenios desde que se mataron los huerfanos serviles de la peninsula de florida. Desde entonces, nadie ha dicho nada. Ni usted ni nadie. Aun si fueron ellos los hijos del matriarco, no significaria nada. O sea, en el ano Mil quinientos cinco, habia un grupo de soldados que dijo que no: no hubiera el almo; no hubiera el amor. Estos ideas falsos existen por el placer del rey. Existen los restos por sufrir. Desde entonces, cambia todo a la vez que cambia nada. todavia existimos por sufrir--si no, porque? No hay razon otro. Esto es. Lo mas pronto que acceptamoslo, lo mas facil que frentemos con nuestro destina: lo de vivir quemarnos en el los fuegos insufribles del infierno.
    que?

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    que?
    Ya lo entiendes.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Ya hace dos millenios desde que se mataron los huerfanos serviles de la peninsula de florida. Desde entonces, nadie ha dicho nada. Ni usted ni nadie. Aun si fueron ellos los hijos del matriarco, no significaria nada. O sea, en el ano Mil quinientos cinco, habia un grupo de soldados que dijo que no: no hubiera el almo; no hubiera el amor. Estos ideas falsos existen por el placer del rey. Existen los restos por sufrir. Desde entonces, cambia todo a la vez que cambia nada. todavia existimos por sufrir--si no, porque? No hay razon otro. Esto es. Lo mas pronto que acceptamoslo, lo mas facil que frentemos con nuestro destina: lo de vivir quemarnos en el los fuegos insufribles del infierno.
    Is this a quote from someone? I feel like I've read it before.

    These false ideas exist for the pleasure of the Lord. The rest exist for suffering. Spanish is such a pretty language. You can say very different things in Spanish than you can in English.

    Also, shouldn't it be "alma"?



    Dolphin, this post seems very cool, but I haven't read it all the way through yet, 'cause I'm in a play that's performing today. But I'm glad that you found something I said interesting enough to use as a springboard.


    EDIT: En este, yo siento el fuego que no se, que no puedo descubrir. Pero aun que no pueda descubrirlo, puedo sentirlo dondequiera esta. Una corazon dice que, "Vivir es sufrir." Pero otra corazon dice que, "Vivir es amar." Y el tecero dice que, "Vivir es sentir." Y tocar, y saber, y controlar, y lo que quieres. Pero por que tenemos que dar un nombre a la vida? Por que la vida no puede ser simplemente si mismo? (Probablemente es espanol pobre, lo siento). La vida es la vida, lo que quiere; el fuego es el fuego. En el alma, el imaginaro alma, hay la repuesta: veemos como estamos, y cuando cambia la corazon, cambia el mundo. El fuego quema. Somos quemados, o curado soy.
    Last edited by silverchris9; 05-01-2011 at 03:20 PM.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creep Of a beast View Post
    Even though you seem to play around with your identity and it seems very blurred in the sense that you dont have a fucking clue what you are. Expect for a moment and then its switched to the opposite. But dont you worry im the same. And i related to every word you just uttered from your cute mouth
    Yeah I'm probly just EIE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Yeah I'm probly just EIE.
    you're probly just all the types.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Nope nothing is enough.


    WE ARE GOD !

    AND SOMETHING MORE!
















    DAMN

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    It's like I don't really have any actual thoughts of my own. =( I don't really feel unique. Other people tell me I'm weird, but I mostly feel like that 'I'm in the heart of everything' like how you described Betas awhile back. I just feel like I'm sort of stuck in the center of it all, in an ubiquitous fashion.

    My creative shtick is more about blending things that were already created, together, rather then coming up with something that is really new. I'm trying to be like purely innovative, like create a song like Fefe Dobson out of my 'own pure alignment', but it's just not natural for me, because I don't think that's how my essence really works. I think that's more how Se is, my dual-seeking function.

    Funnily enough I don't really feel like I'm in my head enough. I think that's what you were alluding to when you said 'head up in the air' but that doesn't mean I'm too much in my head, it probably means I'm not in my head enough.

    I feel like I'm a rocket that's blasted out everywhere in all of reality, and I kinda just want to develop my own personal ego to survive in the world. Instead I feel like little kid's playdough that's just chopped up everywhere. I'm hyperaware of how mortal I am, and how much of a 'body' I have and if it gets destroyed I die, so the sort of artistic egotistic art has always been rather balancing for me. The right kind of make believe just gives me a sense of direction, otherwise I feel so body-vulnerable.
    I relate to all this, and I'm an EII.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsandDoves
    I've always felt so dead when I read things about how we're all one, probably because it's too much like my own essence perhaps, and there's like no yin-yang balance so it just feels off. Idk. But then I look at something unique and colorful, and it's not something I would create myself- but the egoic specialness of it is attractive to me, and it gives me this natural confidence. Cause I'm just a blah raw human goo that just wants love. That is not special or interesting in the slightest but that's okay. I mean I kinda make fun of that in my stories anyway, how everybody wants to be special and unique and be rewarded for doing something all bizarre, but all of that is evil and narcissistic like, 'omg look at meee I'm so unique and talented!!'
    I used to relate to this. But then I became a secular humanist.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Oh, okay. I like this. So the idea (just to put it into my own words) is that Se is like perception overload and while you can just react to everything you perceive it's all on one level so to speak, undifferentiated.

    Its like how I think about Te: Te is unorganized ("raw") mental data. Se is unorganized ("raw") perceptual data. I think in this case the terms rational and irrational are useful ('cause you can't really think of Te as judgment data, but you can think of it as rational, that is, pre-processed, data, rather than sheer perception; and insofar as it is processed, it has undergone a process of judgment).

    Anyway, that was a total digression. I agree with your point about Ni helping to sort the maze of perception that Se finds itself in. I was always thinking about how Ni needs Se to tie down all the crazy perceptions of frameworks, and frameworks inside frameworks so that the interactions you imagine eventually are almost devoid of content, like watching two quarks circle each other for infinity. But it is only natural to assume that Se needs Ni to contextualize everything that they perceive. I will keep this in mind!
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    You might be rolling your eyes and "d'oh"ing at this, thinking "Well, of course things are different, it's a different time", or I don't know.
    No, I don't think that. I'm an EII--a static type. Your dynamic bias is showing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolphin View Post
    So there is this idea that Silverchris brought up a while back that I have been playing with in my mind for a while. Somehow I thought when he said the object focus worked on multiple levels that he was going to go on to talk about Se, but he didn't really. Anyway, you'll get the gist of his idea better if you read the whole thread, but I tried to include the parts most relevant to my thoughts.





    So anyway, I liked the whole concept of the inner observer, etc. However, I do not believe it is necessarily related to intelligence. People have a lot of different justifications for their value systems, and a lot of different perceptions of events, and I've seen a lot of different kinds utilized. And one thing I think is that people do not all use this method of perception that Silverchris describes. Ni/Se are truly "perceiving" functions. Ni is encompassing. It connects events. It is, in its most literal form, a certain kind of timeline, with patterns emerging from that timeline. I modified "timeline" with "certain kind" because I believe Si also functions as a timeline of sorts.

    From this I believe I have pinpointed the nature of Se.

    The thing about objects, is that each node of perception, situation, object, whatever, is it's own thing. It's perceived as something with no other connectors. Now, you may have the other functions of the Se person coming in and modifying this direct perception, but the fact is is that Se people will still have a distinctly direct experience that is not automatically connected to other experiences. They also are as double involved (I believe?) as Ni is double detached.

    Se in action (perhaps this is how Ni DS manifests, so here you go Silverchris): it takes work to connect the dots. It takes work to compare things to past experiences and a lot of strained effort. It's not something an Se person's mind automatically jumps to. For their mind to jump back to a similar situation, they will also remember all the other situational perceptions connected to that situation, and since they view all the perceptions in an object way, it may be hard to separate what elements are meaningful and which aren't. Their perception is literally a whirl of separated perceptions. Ni perception is something that is longed over, but trying to control it can be a pain. Ni is not, literally and metaphorically (score for Model A!) "conscious". I have observed over a period of time (hah) that it emerges correlation free and is not just something you muster with force of will. That is the thing. Se understands force of will. It's something we're quite good at. It's "conscious". I can control my actions and my perceptual animal drive out of sheer willpower when my perceptions are diving around like little imps RAWR-ing at everyone and just ready to react at a moment's notice. But that still doesn't mean I have a great idea of what my perceptions signal or how to separate the relevant ones from irrelevant. The most workable solution is simply don't react, which doesn't mean the perception goes away, it just means perhaps you react in private, or you channel the intensity of perception into something else. But it's more of a quick fix. The long term implications of suppressing that simply makes a perpetually angry person. The long term solution is Ni. Instead of suppressing and rerouting, you simply place all those perceptions into their proper category, perspective, timeline, structure, and suddenly they look pretty damn understandable, if not insightful.

    It is nice when you get an Ni valuer and then those observations sort of settle into their proper meaning. But when things get too perceptual and object heavy it can be hard to organize perception into something coherent. It's akin to the Ni head up in the air thing.

    What I've found is that it helps to try to give myself some Ni. Quite literally, I make a timeline. I write some of the multitude of discrete perceptions that are going through my head. I usually can't get all of them, but I get enough out to function again. The hardest part is waiting till the next day. And then things will happen that will be totally different. And I will write them down. And either understand exactly, because the specific situational qualifiers give me enough meaning that I'm there again, or, I can be thinking "wtf? Did I really perceive that?"

    You might be rolling your eyes and "d'oh"ing at this, thinking "Well, of course things are different, it's a different time", or I don't know. But it's just something that I've learned that I perceive. Perceptions are so information heavy that the Se person doesn't question what they're experiencing directly. That's what's annoying about Ne people. They offer an alternate viewpoint, but it's just this random alternate thought. It's not connected to anything. That's why Se and Ne conflict. Ni doesn't question Se perception, as much as it just puts it in a timeline category so the perceptions start to find a hierarchy of priority. I feel almost proud of myself when someone really likes a certain perception that I didn't think anything of. On the other hand, I worry that my perceptions are wrong, or strange, or innappropriate, or too vehement or emotional, so I have the tendency to suppress them. The most frustrating thing is to have someone else casually reference the perception I had passed by. But I see now that it isn't necessarily worth the frustration, because my hierarchy of importance may be different than theirs, and I need to lessen the instinct to try to gain other people's approval.

    I do think that there are other important things than type, but I have to admit that I think there is some validity to Socionics because I feel better when I read Ni writing. I think that on another level though, people have to be compatible on an actual level of "deepness" (not a value judgment, trying to communicate..density of experience, importance placed on emotions, perceptions, values, things that Socionics doesn't categorize)..so you can have unintelligent Se people, but you also have their unintelligent Ni counterparts to go with them. I've had a few people where we had the same level of "deepness" but had different functions, so the communication sucked at times and translating perceptions was pretty screwy. I thought before that you need the same "deepness", not complimentary types, but now I'm not sure. I think a combination duality and "deepness" would be optimal, but I'm not sure.

    I'm stumbled across this today while I was looking for a particular thread..but... reading it made me feel okay. (i've been super anxious and depressed the past few days).
    I related to to everything you said.

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