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Thread: LII-IEE relations of supervision (INTj & ENFp)

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    2 of my family members have this relationship. The intj brother has his hand on his hip toward the enfp brother. The enfp brother blows intj off, but complains about his lack of warmth and consideration. Intj gets frustrated with entp's lack of logic, filibustering, and manipulations. Intj believes he is superior to enfp. Enfp knows that intj is not superior but it pisses enfp off that intj thinks he is!

    Enfp's wife, infj, looks on and laughs a little.
    Entp
    ILE

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    I don't know mich about this, but here goes:

    My twin brother (INTj), and my neighbor (female, ENFp) sometimes end up in the same room. From what I've seen, the INTj tends to roll his eyes at the ENFp. Later, the ENFp will retreat. When I come by, she says things like:

    "No offense, but your brother's a nerd."
    "Mickey's a weirdo."
    "Why does your brother do that???"
    Etc. etc. etc.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

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    When my ENFP brother meet my INTJ friend female. They didn't get along very well. THey think the other person is a jerk. Before really getting to know each other. Didn't have no interest to get to know each other either

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    Some of my friends are INTJ. I rarley introduce my friends to my ENFP and ISTP brothers cause they don't care or don't really get along with my INTJ friends . I guess my INTJ friends are to old for them.
    ISFP, SEI

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    Default enfp -intj relationships

    I have a very good friend that is a intj and i am a enfp. I have known him since we werereal young. I admire his logic and his grasp of issues. I admire how he is not intimidated by anybody in a power position and is willing to speak his mindin a very logical way. When ever i am in a crisis he is one of the first person i will call to ask for support or advice.The strength in the relationship is that enfp admires the intj's logic and willingness to sacrifice his efforts for someone if he feels the person is being wronged by someone . The main flaw i think in the relationship is the intj's ability in being unafraid to point out the enfp's flaws which the enfp may think is too personal and makes him feel embarrassed. Intj's sometimes see the mistakes enfp's makes and feels that it is his duty to tell the enfp so the enfp won't look like a fool to the world . When someone is telling you basically you look like a fool or you need to follow a certain action so you won't look like a fool if you don't follow their advice you tend to want to avoid them especially when in the socionic relationship they is the supervisor. For example enfp's likes to make a flamboyant look in there appearance and dress sometimes and the intj feels he or she needs to tell them the honest truth for the enfp's own good. The enfp may not feel or want to realize he looks foolish. Enfp's hate being critiqued about their appearance because we feel a person should be accepted for who he is and not his appearence.Or the enfp may not care he looks foolish. We sometimes hate conforming to societies norm's also.

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    INTJ and ENFP seems good for friendships....
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    LII and IEE is good so long as the LII is willing to tolerate the IEE and so long as the IEE is willing to tolerate his toleration
    Could it be that there are one or two INTjs out there who understand that one strength is not worth more than the other? Could it even be that the one or other INTj understands that s/he can learn a great deal about him/herself from an ENFp? And is it perhaps even imaginable that an INTj has enought respect and humility to understand that an ENFp can bring a great deal of insight and depth to the table? Might this mean that an INTj can actually ENJOY knowing an ENFp? Like her charm? Think she is funny? That she has a great deal of interpersonal experience, which can create a worldview from which he can learn? Understand that she is very capable of respecting his boundaries? And, oh my GOSH, could it even happen that an INTj asks an ENFp to please stay in his life because she has really enriched it with her insights and helped him understand a great deal about himself? No, no, surely not because we are just the slaves of our functions and when there is supervisory relationhip, then of course one part will be merely tolerated at best...(<- I'm being ironic here).

    You know Pedro, I really don't know why you love to dislike ENFps so much, but perhaps it's time to open your mind to the possibilty that ENFps are not little twits who can be lucky to be tolerated by Mastermind INTj. And if I can move beyond an INTj's supposed impassiveness and detachment to find out that they care deeply and are very attached to me, why can't you move beyond an ENFps supposed happiness and smile to find out that s/he can see in you someone to open up his/her inner world. And when s/he does that, there is most certainly more depth, conflict and insight than you see now. But the ENFp needs to trust you just as much as the INTj needs to trust someone to do that.

    Thus I think that once the two really trust each other, it's a beautiful thing.
    And in that regard, I see a similarity in the two types (among others) that creates a great deal of understanding once the initial differences have been overcome.

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    Wow, I can be dramatic...

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    I apologize, yes I do remember you saying that your brother is ENFp. I shouldn't assume.

    if you find an intj that you can work things out with good for you but he will probably never achieve the potential he has because he will be holding himself back forever so as not to hurt you.
    How so?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    One word of advice: Relations of Supervision are horrible. Listen to rmcnew. He knows what he is talking about.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    I wish they would, Cone ...

    I do think it is sad that people want to initiate and defend bad type relationship matches that they know nothing about. I just figure that if they are that desperate to risk being in a relationship that has been known to become abusive just for the benefit of having many of their own functions supported by the another person, then they probably just do not know how to function outside of an abusive atmosphere and maybe they are better off there.

    My apologies, but I pity anyone that actual wants a relation of supervision. I honestly feel sorry for them.

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    I believe if you want to get into a relationship with somebody, socionics or anything of the sort shouldn't be the deciding factor... or even a factor at all.
    ENFP - Ethical Subtype.
    In touch with semireality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeonMonk
    I believe if you want to get into a relationship with somebody, socionics or anything of the sort shouldn't be the deciding factor... or even a factor at all.
    Suit yourself ...

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    I do think it is sad that people want to initiate and defend bad type relationship matches that they know nothing about. I just figure that if they are that desperate to risk being in a relationship that has been known to become abusive just for the benefit of having many of their own functions supported by the another person, then they probably just do not know how to function outside of an abusive atmosphere and maybe they are better off there.
    Oh please, there is nothing abusive about my relationships with my INTj friends and they are pretty close. This is utterly ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim(too lazy to log on)
    I do think it is sad that people want to initiate and defend bad type relationship matches that they know nothing about. I just figure that if they are that desperate to risk being in a relationship that has been known to become abusive just for the benefit of having many of their own functions supported by the another person, then they probably just do not know how to function outside of an abusive atmosphere and maybe they are better off there.
    Oh please, there is nothing abusive about my relationships with my INTj friends and they are pretty close. This is utterly ridiculous.
    Do you have a close intimate relationship with them? One where you are almost always in close proximity to themm all the time and are reliant on them for support and you are suppose to be helping each other?

    If no, then you have not had an opportunity to see the relation of supervision fully manifest itself.

    Would you really want someone around you 24/7 who constantly reminds you of the weaknesses in your PoLR? Because that is what the supervisor does to the supervisee. It does not make for good intimate relations.

    You can do what you want. People make stupid decisions all the time, and if you want to learn by experience and example that is a good way to do it. I just hope you do not find yourself making foolish decisions in the end.

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    My apologies, but I pity anyone that actual wants a relation of supervision. I honestly feel sorry for them.
    LOL

    On a serious note... rMcNew

    We must remember how optimistic the ENFPs are, and how idealistic.

    They want to see it work... May try to force it to work. The challenge is partly appealing... I guess.
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    I stay the heck away from INFjs and ISTjs ... I have actually experienced the full manifestation of relations of supervision and it was the most crappiest and abusive relationship of my life. And I know for a fact that there are others who have experienced it full blown and feel the exact same way, so I am being honest when I say it is not just me.

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    ISTj - main issue is their arrogance and "so high and mighty" attitude because most of them easily can obtain a PHD.

    INFj - main issue is their lack of resolving conflict, their idealism, and that they are always right because their intuition is so strong it can become all they trust.
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    Kim, rMcNew is not attacking, but he is suggesting these relationships are not good for close intimate relations (more than just friends).

    Because you tend to be interacting almost everyday it can get ugly...



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    I think you have no clue what you are getting yourself into, but in any case ... Good luck! [You will need it] ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Yes, I know. And I'm suggesting that people can learn from each other as long as there is communication and awareness. And that I think it a weird approach to just drop someone because of his/her personality type.

    If it were so easy, then my relationship with the ISTp would have been fabulous, right? Well, it wasn't all that fabulous (for neither of us). So how about that?
    People can learn from each other if there is communication and awareness yea.

    First of all several people on this forum have stated that duality is not the be all and end all. You need things like mutual attraction, similar life goals/ambitions, and nevermind if someone has a horrible addiction that intereferes just as much. There are other factors. A jaded ISTp may be an asshole to everyone and have given up on love.

    Who knows if you even typed them right?

    Duality is a fabulous thing, but if your dual looks like the hunch back of notre dame and has a crack addiction (yes I love to exadgerate), it probably wasnt meant to be from the beginning.

    Duality is still the most 'ideal' relationship. Other interactions take varying degrees of effort because of misinformation, often at the subconscious level. If you are not with someone who is your dual I would argue the chances of infidelity increase significantly.
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    Don't give up Kim, It just might work, you will never know unless you both give it a good try. Functions really aren't everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Don't give up Kim, It just might work, you will never know unless you both give it a good try. Functions really aren't everything.
    YES!!

    *applause*

    Thank you . Type isn't everything. People should realize that.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    INTj should be glad someone fancies one of them, very few people do really. Just you wait until that ESFj starts nagging u ass. It will be like vile little insects are biting you all over, eating you alive and you just can't escape them.

    Every type has something useful to offer every other type. What kind of arrogant person thinks otherwise? Wait... I know.

    You go kim.

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    Pedro, read my posts. You said:

    ... your very nature of trying to bring him back to reality will sabotage his best qualities especially when you try to "understand" whatever crap he happens to be saying at the moment. the beauty of esfjs is that they DO NOT try to understand every dumbass idea an intj has so it allows for more creative liberty in his thoughts.
    I said earlier:
    Engaging in the other's discourse. Not always wanting to understand. So the INTj will have to push himself, too, to realize that not all of the ENFp's actions make sense to him. And again, that is the beauty of opening new doors towards acknowledging other ways of approaching things.
    And that includes not trying to understand everything as I very clearly pointed out. Engaging in the discourse does not mean trying to understand it, it means to open up to the different way of approaching things without judging it. To just let the person be. And that includes allowing him/her to retreat and come out at his own pace-

    And as far as this goes:

    TiNe is at it's best when creating NEW unfathomed insights into various things. The process of enculturation limits this ability which is why intjs often become reclusive in order to gain perspective on things from a non-person oriented perspective
    I don't think that is why INTjs can become reclusive. They become reclusive when they fail to see the merit of being part of a world that seemingly does not understand them. Or they retreat from the world for
    a little while, but as long as they feel comfortable with you, they are happy to share their insights, especially when they can be sure that the person across from them will approach the idea with an open mind and will be non-judgemental. It's all about trust, really.


    You go kim.
    Oh, don't you worry! Thanks! :wink:

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    I think it's ironic that an INTj and an ENFp are arguing about INTj/ENFp relations and disagreeing along fairly defined Ti vs. Fi lines.

    (Granted, it's hard to discern individual functions in an argument.)
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    INTJs I find fascinating people for some weird reason, perhaps cause they can see my weakness
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    i agree with you that these differences can probably be overcome BUT it should be noted that the greater the interpersonal differences between two people the MORE ENERGY it takes to suspend the effects of the countervailing forces between them.
    Thats the bottom line...

    Eventually one gets over stressed ... shit boils over...
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    People don't like listening to reason.. especially emotional people. idealistic? even worse.. just leave it alone, dude.

    Also, what people think of what we (NTs) say, how we think, etc.. comes to the bitter light when you try to suggest something to them. Its very different from the nice-nice they spill in your ear, amplifying its shock value. But we think similarly about the over use of emotions in everyday life. Who's lying?

    Anyway..

    INTJ-ENFP friends, that i've seen, get along alright, after the ice is broken.. as soon as it becomes intimate, the problems amplify.. there is constant argument, etc.. I mean, CONSTANT.

    But I've seen ENFPs endure absolutely horrible relationships.. for what reason, I don't know.. so I guess you can as well.

    Good luck.

    PS: iCePick is coming across like a pavlovian dog.. stop sucking it up.
    thing.

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    Thanks for the reply, Pedro, it is much appreciated. From a purist viewpoint, ok, I see where you are coming from. I have a few comments, but not much time right now. So more later.

    People don't like listening to reason.. especially emotional people. idealistic? even worse.. just leave it alone, dude.

    Also, what people think of what we (NTs) say, how we think, etc.. comes to the bitter light when you try to suggest something to them. Its very different from the nice-nice they spill in your ear, amplifying its shock value. But we think similarly about the over use of emotions in everyday life. Who's lying?
    People like listening to reason, honey, and wow, they might even get you if you explain it to them. Read the thread in its entirety and if you don't see it, you are missing the point. As for the rest of your eloquent contribution, either read up on other types or shut up because you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Don't be so eager to play the "those-emotional-idiots-hate-logic" card because you might fail to see the logic in their reasoning. It might be conceived differently and expressed differently and might have involved a different kind of effort and could be based on different preconceptions, but it's logic nonetheless.

    But I've seen ENFPs endure absolutely horrible relationships.. for what reason, I don't know.. so I guess you can as well.
    Well, I know the reasons and I know of my own vulnerabilities. So no, I can't anymore. Which brings me back to my point, as you can see.

    And don't talk to me like I'm some stupid little emotional twit. I've heard it all before and it bores me to tears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim (not logged on)
    Thanks for the reply, Pedro, it is much appreciated. From a purist viewpoint, ok, I see where you are coming from. I have a few comments, but not much time right now. So more later.

    People don't like listening to reason.. especially emotional people. idealistic? even worse.. just leave it alone, dude.

    Also, what people think of what we (NTs) say, how we think, etc.. comes to the bitter light when you try to suggest something to them. Its very different from the nice-nice they spill in your ear, amplifying its shock value. But we think similarly about the over use of emotions in everyday life. Who's lying?
    People like listening to reason, honey, and wow, they might even get you if you explain it to them. Read the thread in its entirety and if you don't see it, you are missing the point. As for the rest of your eloquent contribution, either read up on other types or shut up because you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Don't be so eager to play the "those-emotional-idiots-hate-logic" card because you might fail to see the logic in their reasoning. It might be conceived differently and expressed differently and might have involved a different kind of effort and could be based on different preconceptions, but it's logic nonetheless.

    But I've seen ENFPs endure absolutely horrible relationships.. for what reason, I don't know.. so I guess you can as well.
    Well, I know the reasons and I know of my own vulnerabilities. So no, I can't anymore. Which brings me back to my point, as you can see.

    And don't talk to me like I'm some stupid little emotional twit. I've heard it all before and it bores me to tears.
    You just confirmed my point; however, I neither called you stupid, nor implied that I thought you were. As for what else you said, blah blah.

    IcEPiCk: I think I am right, so I made the point.. how am I wrong?
    thing.

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    IcEPiCk: I think I am right, so I made the point.. how am I wrong?
    I dont need to justify myself to you.


    I am social towards more than just ENFPs on this forum. I even talk with an ENTP who cleared up my views on them.

    So what if I get along well with ENFPs? I get along well with ISFPs and am friendly towards most people giving them the benefit of a doubt. I talk to many people on this forum in chats, some ENFPs some not.

    However, you just join on this forum recently and throw a completely unnesessary degrading comment towards me. Of course I will be defensive. Oh no I proved your point but defending myself, whoa I have been conditioned to defend myself... You are brilliant! If you read enough, ISTPs learn from experience, to the point we dont take shit from worthless fucks like yourself.
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    Damn you, Pedro. Your post just threw me into my own philosophical hellhole. Now I realize that I've been chasing the wrong interests; but what do I do now? I've already abused and ignored the interests of what is best for an INTp. *sigh*

    And isn't MySaviour an INTp also? Just another INTp falling prey to the fault of speaking too soon. *another sigh*

    I like being depressed. At least I have something to hold on to. *sigh again*

    *and some more sighs*
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    if you were being serious then i am glad that it did because contimplating fundamental contradiction will make you a better human being. it seems like the history of the world is merely man trying to straddle his own inherent contradiction
    To insert the Nihilistic approach: what is a better human being? What could you, as an INTj, be spending your energy on that would be more beneficial? Why does it all matter if we're going to die anyway, and nothing will matter in the long run? So what if I suffer through a crappy Supervision relation (of which I have, and it sucked.) Is not suffering ennobling? What does not kill you only makes you stronger, right?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    "Pain is just weakness leaving your system."

    Unless a limb is being sawed off.
    {♠x<º))))><¸.·´¯`·.¸IcEPiCk¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>x♠ }

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    I love IcEPiCK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    If you insert the nihilistic approach then you are done. You need not ask questions because the answer will always be "there is no point."
    That's my point exactly. :wink:

    But I still very much want to know, without the Nihilism: what is a better human being? What could you, as an INTj, be spending your energy on that would be more beneficial?

    I always thought that Judging types were about comfort and efficiency in life. For what purpose, I'm not exactly sure. Maybe I'm just trying to figure out exactly why the Nihilistic approach may not be the best one.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    Nihilism doesn't even make sense from a logical point of view because it still makes statements about the world. I think this is waht leads many nihilists to despair and ultimately suicide, insanity, or mystical revelation but that is an entirely different conversation.
    Ok, I see. Here's something I found interesting. Did you ever wonder why the world's laws are as they are? Why energy is? Why mass is? Why why is? Why is is? Why? ...? ... *silence*

    My point is that eventually, you cannot ask why anymore, because doing so would be assuming the very things that you are questioning. It is impossible to conceive a dimension outside of ours, because you are assuming that in that dimension, there really is "conception" or "impossible". Even in that argument, I am making assumptions. So you really can't say anything about it, just silence.

    But even that is still assuming something.

    About your second paragraph: every time I read about INTjs, I realize that we aren't much different at all, yet there is something there that splits us into two distinct types. I can't quite grasp what that is, though.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    I think this is roughly how consciousness forms.
    YES! Exactly. I was thinking roughly the same thing a few weeks back and still to this day.

    Here's how I see "everything": anything that you can possibly conceive is nothing more than a representation of something else, or more logically, any possible system is a representation of some other system. Representations are also reversible. A memory represents an event in reality, and an event in reality represents a memory.

    So consciousness is simply a representation of that system called "reality". The unconscious is what you described about the baby's instincts. There is no representation for these actions, thus there is no consciousness. Once consciousness forms, there are representations from brain structures to reality. And what's funny is that with this definition of consciousness, you could say that a glow-stick has consciousness, because its glow represents the sunlight it collected.

    Now, understanding comes from higher level representations of representations. You explain this with the "bowel pain" concept.

    Now for the absolutely crazy aspect of it... what if none of those things ARE interconnected?
    Then that would be pure existence, no?

    I mean really there is no way to prove that reality exists because "evidence" is dependent on said reality. In addition to this you have no way to "experiment" because nothing exists on which to experiment.
    Can you even assume that "exists" exists? Note that I can't even state anything. And I am still making assumptions every time I speak.

    Imagine seeing everything about you but not connotating anything with the images you see, sounds you hear, sensations on your skin, smells in your nose, etc.
    Could you even perceive time if this was the case? Because isn't the perception of time nothing more than the overlapping of sensory memory, allowing successive "frames" to associate with one another, thus the perception of time?

    An off-topic comment: if the mathematical system can accurately represent reality, then how do I ever get anywhere, since there are an infinite amount of points between any two numbers? It would take an infinite amount of time to travel even an inch, a millimeter, or the smallest possible distance you can think of. Thus, I suppose that reality is not continuous. Physicists have shown that energy is not continuous, so why not space?

    Maybe that is the difference between intjs and intps? It seems like when I say this type of stuff intps (Ps in general) think that the arbitration of reality is the natural consequence of what I am saying but I don't think a J type would ever say that at all.
    I think approach is the only difference between any type. We can understand the same thing, but we approach the problem differently because of individual type needs.

    Maybe "the arbitration of reality is the natural consequence" is what we assume for pragmatic reasons. Action depends on this assumption, and INTps are naturally more active than INTjs.

    I think to solve this "arbitration of reality" problem, you must either prove that there exists a reality outside of our viewpoint, or prove that this has to be the only reality. Then it won't be arbitrary anymore. But that's impossible.

    And another thing: where does "logic" come from? I think I have a theory, but I'm not sure exactly of its validity. I would like to hear your thoughts.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    As someone more interested in the method of his philosophy rather than the conclusion, Russell would have been a P also. :wink:

    Philosophy, if it cannot answer so many questions as we could wish, has at least the power of asking questions which increase the interest of the world, and show the strangeness and wonder lying just below the surface even in the commonest things of daily life.

    If you like Russell and are generally interested in philosophy of the science, you should also check out Karl Popper and falsifiability.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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