Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Vectors of Duals

  1. #1
    jughead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NC
    TIM
    IEI
    Posts
    883
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Vectors of Duals

    Alright so you can describe a type as a vector, but what vector does your dual take. Specifically if you were to describe arrows and diagrams.

    I take it conflictor would be a arrow pointing the exact opposite direction.

  2. #2
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Alright so you can describe a type as a vector, but what vector does your dual take. Specifically if you were to describe arrows and diagrams.
    Assuming dual elements are 1/4 of each other: y=1/4x


    I take it conflictor would be a arrow pointing the exact opposite direction.
    I'm not sure. Consider Quasis too.
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
    Socionics Tests Database
    Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites


    Fidei Defensor

  3. #3
    Creepy-male

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Alright so you can describe a type as a vector, but what vector does your dual take. Specifically if you were to describe arrows and diagrams.

    I take it conflictor would be a arrow pointing the exact opposite direction.
    There are others on this board heaps better at maths than me, but...

    Playing with vectors! Very loose conceptual terms without getting into the nitty-gritty of the arithmetic or mathematics involved.

    First thing, use polar coordinates. The argument of a vector is which type it refers to. All type vectors have a modulus of 1.

    Intertypes wind up being summary vectors with modulus √2 and an argument that's an average of the arguments of the two types involved.

    This could potentially be useful since you can continue combining vectors for different-sized groups. (And for instance use vectors to explain things like the Block or Square groups.)

    I'd have to play around with the details of the maths involved though, and I kind of don't want to or I'll get lost for hours

    If you're using a two-dimensional plane (neatest presentation, but may not be "mathematical" if you want to produce elegant and visually meaningful summary vectors), I would organise it so that:

    • Each type Quadra occupies a quadrant (going anti-clockwise from the first quadrant, Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta)
    • Each type is paired with their Activator
    • Duals are mirrored through their quadrant's halfway line


    This needs work, it's inelegant and produces meaningless results. If anyone else wants to fix up the pieces, by all means.

    --

    Different approach:

    If you're not doing things graphically and instead opt for a numerical approach:

    Each type is a four-bit vector. Your starting type (ENTp, for the sake of convention) is <0,0,0,0>. Toggling any of those bits toggles the dichotomy it refers to: <0,0,0,1> would be an ENTj, a quasi-identical.

    We however don't have any useful directional words for four-dimensional space. So your question is only really defined in 2- and 3-dimensional space. (You can potentially express 2-dimensional directions in 3 dimensions, as the complex plane "folds up" to form the surface of a sphere, which if I recall correctly is called the extended complex plane or such).

  4. #4
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Alright so you can describe a type as a vector, but what vector does your dual take. Specifically if you were to describe arrows and diagrams.

    I take it conflictor would be a arrow pointing the exact opposite direction.
    I know what you mean, I also try to make some abstract picture of what dual and conflict is. And ofcourse 14 other different 'vectors' or whatever. But it's hard...

    16 variants would mean for example, a 2 by 2 block. then 2 arrows that can point in 2 directions. etc. until you have 16 possibilities.

    But my brain gets hot when I start thinking further about this, but I like your idea. I hope one day you can solve it for me :-)

  5. #5
    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    TIM
    LII, 5w6
    Posts
    670
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    So I've just thought of this, and my knowledge of vectors is limited to internet research a week ago, but:

    First of all, the vectors will start at the origin.
    Proximity to mod[y] = mod[x] will denote stability of relationship.
    Distance from the origin can represent some form of strength of relationship.

    Consider the first quadrant:
    Put the head of the vectors at points (7, 24), (9, 16), (16, 9), (24, 7). NB: They are such numbers because they are equidistant from the origin.
    Note that if you add the vectors together, ESFj and INTj will be at point (31, 31), which is on mod[y] = mod[x], and is a fair distance (in terms of both x and y) from the origin. A similar pattern occurs for ENTp and ISFp.

    The other quadrants:
    Third (Gamma) Quadrant, the points (-7, -24), (-9, -16), (-16, 9), (-24, -7), then similar intraquadra patterns occur as in the first quadrant. However, the nature of our placing allows conflictors such as ESFj and INTp to add to point (0, 0), a place of very slow strength, according to our definition, although, apparently, much stability (could conflictors be considered to have a very stable state of conflicting?)

    Other quadrants
    I was thinking that INFp could be at point (-7, 24), as this would mean both -dominants would be along line x = -7. However, this implies that the relationship between an INFp and an ESFj brings them to point (0, 48). Being a supervisor relationship, it is not very stable (distance from mod[y] = mod[x]), but it is quite a distance from the origin (indeed, greater than the duals). As such, I would suggest that mod[y-coordinate] (i.e. the distance in terms of y), be a certain aspect of a relationship that a supervisor relationship may have a lot of (chemistry, or something?) and for which I need ideas.

    Also, I think we should make the x-coordinates and the y-coordinates actually mean something. That is, for example, we make the y-coordinate "sociability", and so ENFj and ESFj would be on the line y = 24, and ISTp and INTp would be on the line y = -24.

    Thoughts?
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

  6. #6
    Creepy-male

    Default

    ITT: maths nerds scaring everyone else away.

    P.S. I love you, that's awesome.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    0
    Mentioned
    Post(s)
    Tagged
    Thread(s)

    Default

    I like math, but even I would never think of this.

    I'm not sure this is entirely necessary, or useful.

    Maybe it would be possible, though... of course, the values would be more or less completely arbitrary.

    EDIT: It would be possible using three-dimensional space, I think. Having three axes would divide the continuum into octants. From there, one axis could indicate introvert-extrovert, another intuition-sensing, and the last logic-ethics. Then all that's left is rational-irrational, which would obviously have to use something other than an axis. Four-dimensional space is more or less completely unworkable. The difference would have to be made in the graphing of the function itself.

    Duals would be perpendicular vectors, I think.

    EDIT2: I would rather the rational-irrational be exchanged with introvert-extrovert. It just seems to work better that way. Perhaps Introvert vectors can be dotted and Extrovert vectors solid?
    Last edited by nil; 04-26-2011 at 03:24 AM.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,934
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The dual is the polar opposite.. hence the word dual.

    This is what a graph of duality looks like:


  9. #9
    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    TIM
    LII, 5w6
    Posts
    670
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    I'm not sure this is entirely necessary, or useful.

    Maybe it would be possible, though... of course, the values would be more or less completely arbitrary.

    EDIT: It would be possible using three-dimensional space, I think. Having three axes would divide the continuum into octants.

    Duals would be perpendicular vectors, I think.

    EDIT2: I would rather the rational-irrational be exchanged with introvert-extrovert. It just seems to work better that way. Perhaps Introvert vectors can be dotted and Extrovert vectors solid?
    I doubt this would ever be useful, mainly because we'd have to edit the system according to what Socionics governs, and it's far too abstract to have much grounding in what actually happens between people. However, it's still interesting to see what happens. I think if we end up with anything coherent, it will have to be a representation of the system, and not anything from which we can learn something new

    If we do use a 3D space, then I would agree with the use of a rational-irrational as an axis, in order for us to get a perpendicular vector, and to avoid conflictors and duals occupying the same space. The problem is, however, conflictors and activators occupy the same space.

    Maybe something like (1, 1, 1), (perceiving, intuition, thinking) and (1, -1, -1) (perceiving, intuition, feeling). Does that make them perpendicular? 3D space gets more difficult conceptually.

    Or could we even use the Reinin Dichotomies as the axes?
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

  10. #10
    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    TIM
    LII, 5w6
    Posts
    670
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    The dual is the polar opposite.. hence the word dual.

    This is what a graph of duality looks like:
    *Graph*
    Ooh, new hobby, associating graphs with Socionics relations. An interesting concept, and not to nitpick, but how would Conflictors look? And so and so forth, I think the problem is that I feel that using y = 1/x is too boring for my .
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,934
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well if y=1/x is duality, you have there a basis for graphing the functions, since they're built on duality. You'd just have to add complexity to it. But I'm not sure y=1/x is the perfect equation for duality yet. I think x^2 and √y would be closer to 2 simple dual functions. The exponents are more fundamental operations than multiplication / division. And that's pretty much just a fractal vs. whatever the opposite of a fractal is. Expanding square thing.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    607
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    The dual is the polar opposite.. hence the word dual.
    Don't be mixing up dual with duel.

    Dual: "composed of two usually like or complementary parts"

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    55
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Alright so you can describe a type as a vector, but what vector does your dual take. Specifically if you were to describe arrows and diagrams.

    I take it conflictor would be a arrow pointing the exact opposite direction.
    I always imagined duality as two magnets attracting and repelling in a continuous loop.

    First they are attracted then issues come up and they are repelled because of their faulty perceptions, they both grow from the experience and perceptions are corrected and they are again attracted and the cycle continues til they die.

  14. #14
    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    TIM
    LII, 5w6
    Posts
    670
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    As I can see there is very little use, mainly because if we try to turn the system into some maths form, it'll just abstract it. So we could never use it to actually learn anything about the types or the people, but you could use it as a (albeit unnecessarily complex) representation of some Socionics, but I don't think there is a use.

    That being said, the idea behind the post was to take the idea of Vectors and Intertype Relations and combine them, which I thought was interesting. Perhaps, unless people think otherwise, we could move it to Anything Goes.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,934
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Don't be mixing up dual with duel.

    Dual: "composed of two usually like or complementary parts"
    well opposites are always alike, aren't they jackass? The two lines on the graph are alike - they're defined by the same coordinate system and they're directly related to one another through the equation. Fucking dipshit

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    0
    Mentioned
    Post(s)
    Tagged
    Thread(s)

    Default

    Why are you so mad, Crazed?

    I thought this picture accurately depicted duality the first time I saw it:


    There is movement, by the way.

  17. #17
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    I thought this picture accurately depicted duality the first time I saw it:
    no this reminds me of a snake doing fellatio to himselve

  18. #18
    ._. Aiss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    IEI
    Posts
    2,015
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It depends on what coordinates you choose. For example, when using four Jungian dichotomies, you'll get conflictors as the exact opposites. If that's what you mean, duals' vectors would differ in all dimensions except for one. However, if you chose Reinin dichotomies of Static/Dynamic, Strategic/Tactical, Positivist/Negativist and Asking/Declaring, duals would be represented by vectors with exactly opposing directions.

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    0
    Mentioned
    Post(s)
    Tagged
    Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    no this reminds me of a snake doing fellatio to himselve

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,934
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It's kind of explains you are so bad at socionics when you can't even get the principles of duality right.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •