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Thread: The Complexities of the Analyst (INTj uncovered)

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    Default The Complexities of the Analyst (INTj uncovered)

    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    i disagree with a) and in a roundabout way, b). i don't try to control my emotions, but i think i don't have strong emotions because i spend lots of time in thought. on those occasions when i do feel strong emotions, i don't try to run from them.

    i see nothing wrong with complexities and paradoxes. the paradox is a great point at which to gain a deeper understanding; seeing the truth in a pardox.

    not the best article i have seen
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    I think UDP is INFp.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Default Re: The Complexities of the Analyst (INTj uncovered)

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    http://the16types.info/articles.php?article_id=5


    Comments wanted
    The author, Tanzhe, later came to retype himself as an ISTJ, and even asked to have the article removed. Then he thought it possible that he might be an INTJ after all. I am not sure what he thinks now, but it would be nice to hear from him...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    He reminds me of Jonathan.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Creepy-pokeball

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    The entire thing made very little sense. It was like reading fiction as it was swirling down the toilet in a counter-clockwise swoosh.

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    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
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    i just had a craving to do some math. very strange. i find it comparable to craving chocolate ice cream. and not the cheap stuff that comes in the huge plastic tub, but the dark almost black frozen indulgence with hunks of thick choco goddness that sticks to your mouth and teeth. god i love logic and cutting stuff with it.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Creepy-

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    He reminds me of Jonathan.
    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    I think UDP is INFp.
    And your believe this because....?

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    The author, Tanzhe, later came to retype himself as an ISTJ, and even asked to have the article removed. Then he thought it possible that he might be an INTJ after all. I am not sure what he thinks now, but it would be nice to hear from him...
    Hi CuriousSoul (and everyone else),

    Now that I've been mentioned by name, I have to say something about this (after all, I can't be a lurker all my life :wink - the whole article is a load of rubbish. I'm not an INTj. The article might fit some INTjs, it might not fit other INTjs, but ultimately I was writing to reflect my own personality, so take no notice of it.

    I'm sorry for any confusion caused.

    Best,

    Five/Tanzhe

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    Default Welcome Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Hi CuriousSoul (and everyone else),

    Now that I've been mentioned by name, I have to say something about this (after all, I can't be a lurker all my life :wink - the whole article is a load of rubbish. I'm not an INTj. The article might fit some INTjs, it might not fit other INTjs, but ultimately I was writing to reflect my own personality, so take no notice of it.

    I'm sorry for any confusion caused.

    Best,

    Five/Tanzhe
    Thank you for your reply.
    Yes, I can relate. I took down my Hitler article as well, a whole lot of nonsense, or non-sequitur as FDG might put it. :wink:

    Anyway, are you reasonably convinced that you are an ISTJ now, or do you have any idea? And do you think Admin/Jimmy should remove the whole article? In any case do not hesitate to write on this forum, I do not think anybody really knows much for sure. It is just fun to speculate regardless.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Hi there,

    I think that I'm ISTj (fairly certain of it), but another possibility includes ISFj and I've also thought about INFj.

    The reason why I'm considering Feeling types is because, when I took the Big Five test, I got a very low score for Neuroticism (i.e. I'm very calm under pressure), which might explain appearing to be a Thinking type. But I'm sensitive, emotionally intelligent, considerate and also can get quite upset when I get into real trouble with superiors (I'm conflict-adverse), and I got a high score for Agreeableness on the Big Five, all of which seem like F traits to me (not that I'm saying that Thinkers cannot be agreeable; I'm just looking at the evidence as a whole). I'll probably start a new topic about this in a while.

    As I don't believe that I'm INTj, I would like the article to be removed because it was written to reflect my personality. Should I PM admin about this?

    Regards,
    Five/Tanzhe

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    Default A Modest Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Hi there,

    I think that I'm ISTj (fairly certain of it), but another possibility includes ISFj and I've also thought about INFj.

    The reason why I'm considering Feeling types is because, when I took the Big Five test, I got a very low score for Neuroticism (i.e. I'm very calm under pressure), which might explain appearing to be a Thinking type. But I'm sensitive, emotionally intelligent, considerate and also can get quite upset when I get into real trouble with superiors (I'm conflict-adverse), and I got a high score for Agreeableness on the Big Five, all of which seem like F traits to me (not that I'm saying that Thinkers cannot be agreeable; I'm just looking at the evidence as a whole). I'll probably start a new topic about this in a while.
    It seems quite possible you could be an ISTJ - or a number of other types as well, I might add INTP to the list. INFJ seems unlikely to me, but the trouble with identifying people of identical types is always that you compare others to yourself and see the differences and ignore the similarities. In theory the intertype relations are supposed to be the golden standard, but in practise recognizing them reliably seems far from easy - as is typing in general - of course.

    Personally, I still think that socionics has great potential, but its time has not really come yet, the issue of correct typing needs to be solved first, and what the types and functions "really" are is primarily an empirical question - the answers will probably come from brain studies rather than solved through logical deduction by some professional or amateur socionist. This is just my opinion, of course. :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    As I don't believe that I'm INTj, I would like the article to be removed because it was written to reflect my personality. Should I PM admin about this?

    Regards,
    You could PM him, but, on the other hand, it was a nice article that did address many possibly type related issues. And if you still have interest to discuss your type, perhaps we could come up with something new now when there are many more people with different types writing on this forum.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Hi there,

    I think that I'm ISTj (fairly certain of it), but another possibility includes ISFj and I've also thought about INFj.

    The reason why I'm considering Feeling types is because, when I took the Big Five test, I got a very low score for Neuroticism (i.e. I'm very calm under pressure), which might explain appearing to be a Thinking type. But I'm sensitive, emotionally intelligent, considerate and also can get quite upset when I get into real trouble with superiors (I'm conflict-adverse), and I got a high score for Agreeableness on the Big Five, all of which seem like F traits to me (not that I'm saying that Thinkers cannot be agreeable; I'm just looking at the evidence as a whole). I'll probably start a new topic about this in a while.

    As I don't believe that I'm INTj, I would like the article to be removed because it was written to reflect my personality. Should I PM admin about this?

    Regards,
    Hmm....... I got really low scores for agreeableness, if I remember correctly.

    But I've had a lot of lessons in "F", so to say. A lot of things..... that I probably shouldn't have seen, in that regard. But I have. And I have learned from them. I'd never lable myself an "F" type, though.


    Some things are "lost in translation", it seems
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    He reminds me of Jonathan.
    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    I think UDP is INFp.
    And your believe this because....?
    you use too many gd ellipses. (;
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    i just had a craving to do some math. very strange. i find it comparable to craving chocolate ice cream. and not the cheap stuff that comes in the huge plastic tub, but the dark almost black frozen indulgence with hunks of thick choco goddness that sticks to your mouth and teeth. god i love logic and cutting stuff with it.
    I agree. I love math.
    Roboticist: Someone who conceptualizes, designs, builds, programs and experiments with robots.

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    With all due respect Five, I think you are almost certainly an INTJ. The comment "I'm just looking at the evidence as a whole" is trademark INTJ big-picture thinking. Also, after changing their minds about something INTJs often feel the need to purge all evidence of their former opinion (hence you'd like the admin to delete your article).

    Honestly, I think if you were an ISTJ you probably wouldn't care much about this complex psychological stuff. Not to say that ISTJ's are incapable of grasping difficult concepts, they just prefer to deal with things that are more concrete and practical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrumbles

    Honestly, I think if you were an ISTJ you probably wouldn't care much about this complex psychological stuff. Not to say that ISTJ's are incapable of grasping difficult concepts, they just prefer to deal with things that are more concrete and practical.
    Moron.
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    typical fdg post

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrumbles
    With all due respect Five, I think you are almost certainly an INTJ. The comment "I'm just looking at the evidence as a whole" is trademark INTJ big-picture thinking. Also, after changing their minds about something INTJs often feel the need to purge all evidence of their former opinion (hence you'd like the admin to delete your article).

    Honestly, I think if you were an ISTJ you probably wouldn't care much about this complex psychological stuff. Not to say that ISTJ's are incapable of grasping difficult concepts, they just prefer to deal with things that are more concrete and practical.
    Are you speaking from experience, or just guessing?(about ISTjs)

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    Honestly, I think if you were an ISTJ you probably wouldn't care much about this complex psychological stuff. Not to say that ISTJ's are incapable of grasping difficult concepts, they just prefer to deal with things that are more concrete and practical
    I didn't like the way this came out.

    Ok, differences between an ISTJ and INTJ from an ENTp perspective….

    The ISTJs I know all pride themselves on their intelligence and ability to administer. I've also seen them work in vastly different fields. But almost always they are a wee bit bossy. Its not so much I think that they have issues grasping any concepts at all, they are just unlikely to come up with new concepts on their own. Always likely to follow a line that they really respect. That respect they would gauge on the reliability of the source. They are usually very accurate people.

    Just speaking from personal experience, so this might not be a rule, but the ISTJs I know seem a lot more physically coordinated than the INTJs I know. There is a certain stiffness in the way an INTJ carries him/herself. Not necessarily ungraceful but not what I would ever consider as really lose either. I guess I would call it a difference of being stiff rather than ISTJ reserved.

    All the INTJs I know don't seem to be extremely flexible with their bodies. They can learn and will master various sports and physical activities but its not so much for the love of the game as self-improvement. Self-improvement has been very important to every INTJ I know. They also seem to have that NT sense of higher purpose. An INTJ who did not focus on growth I think would be a very unhappy INTJ indeed. An INTJ knows they have an edge and is confident about that edge. They might brag and be arrogant but its not in a way to shove people down so much as it is that others will recognize them.

    I have seen ISTJs though who will put others down to make themselves seem more superior. These are ISTJs with ego issues ofcourse but they seem very good at this behavior and seem to intimidate some other S types.

    I can't picture an ISTJ winning too many arguments with an NT type. The ST would go more to just facts within their realm of knowledge while an NT doesn't have to stick to that. STs seem very likely to quote sources and use the, 'because the experts say so' line while an NT tends to question all sources of information and will 'explain' to the ST without referring to necessarily specific information from a particular source.

    NT's can extrapolate new ideas and theories to win their arguments. An ISTJ might be a bit defenseless against this I think. I actually think they might sense this as well somehow because they don’t tend to do this behavior to me and back off quick once they even attempt to do it to an INTJ.

    However an NT type might more willing to concede his loss, higher knowledge requires total truth. While an ST might get snitty and start throwing out weak arguments and extradite themselves out of the situation while trying to leave their pride intact.

    The NT would also be more likely to buck conformity than an ST. To an NT, to function at our best we NEED freedom and sometimes flexible schedules. We need time to umm absorb things and make the connections. We don’t like being rushed in this for the most part I don’t think. While deadlines can sometimes drive us to be more productive, having someone dictate to us in anyway how we are to do that work (especially an S type) would kind of offend us. We would feel we were being treated like children by people who didn’t grasp what we were up to.

    I can see many ST types thinking this unnecessary, just do what you are supposed to. Unless forced aware, I think many might have a difficult time believe that in the big picture, the way an NT functions will most likely be more efficient.

    That being said, if an ST had an NT boss I think they would follow them almost blindly trusting in their intuition and being extremely loyal. They would almost need something to administer to in order to give them fulfillment. If they didn’t have that, they might get themselves into trouble administering in places its not their place to do so. Maybe offending their co-workers.

    Nothing worse than an ST coming in and telling an NT how to do their job better. STs trying to help an NT in this way feels like an invasion. For them to act and try to ‘help’ us (without our guidance or worse, ignoring our guidance because they feel they know what’s best) feels like sabotage and can lead to conflict.

    NTs can not be micro-managed. Not any NT I know. In a very short period of time, we would feel far too confined and simply have to leave the situation. We are usually sorely missed when we do leave. I would be most comfortable with an ISTJ in a position where detailed management was required but not a lot of creative thought.

    This is just going from those I know so again, may not be the rule here.

    P.S. I'd place bets on UDP's INTJness
    Polly
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    Polly as usual you are a wealth of insight.

    I will admit my statement was rather crude and ill-phrased; an ISTj would have at least put it more diplomatically. So I'd like to qualify the remark. I know several ISTj men and they are very bright, I've just noticed that they've shown very little interest in the psychological issues I enjoy discussing. My ISTj stepfather seems to think women think one way and men think another, and it's not much more complicated than that. I say "hey wait a minute, when you cut away culture, upbringing, and gender roles, men and women actually think via the same principles." He nods respectfully like he's considering it, but really he seems very happy with the "tried and true" men are from mars, women from venus explanation. But he doesn't engage in a debate with me because I think he's aware of the NT prowess in argument, as Polly pointed out (or at least that NT's hate to lose). I generalized this to most ISTjs because the profiles I've read in both MBTI and socionics seem to confirm this observation.

    In my experience ISTjs are bright people, as are all ST types, but they seem to value facts, rules, lists, and linear representations more than a big swirling stew of information that is constantly redefining itself. I love stew
    Mr. Crumbles
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    All the INTJs I know don't seem to be extremely flexible with their bodies. They can learn and will master various sports and physical activities but its not so much for the love of the game as self-improvement. Self-improvement has been very important to every INTJ I know. They also seem to have that NT sense of higher purpose. An INTJ who did not focus on growth I think would be a very unhappy INTJ indeed. An INTJ knows they have an edge and is confident about that edge. They might brag and be arrogant but its not in a way to shove people down so much as it is that others will recognize them.
    Wow, this is indeed my philosophy for every single sport that I enjoy doing: self-improvement.
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    In my experience ISTjs are bright people, as are all ST types, but they seem to value facts, rules, lists, and linear representations more than a big swirling stew of information that is constantly redefining itself. I love stew
    I love stew too
    Polly
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly
    I can't picture an ISTJ winning too many arguments with an NT type. The ST would go more to just facts within their realm of knowledge while an NT doesn't have to stick to that. STs seem very likely to quote sources and use the, 'because the experts say so' line while an NT tends to question all sources of information and will 'explain' to the ST without referring to necessarily specific information from a particular source.
    some arguments are kind of hard to defend without facts. don't give yourself too much credit.

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    i have an ISTj friend and we get into tussles quite a bit. It usually ends with her quoting a statistical fact or something factual but not necessarily relevant to the argument, and me deciding its not worth it to continue and me saying "mhm". Or, if i have had it and press along abstract lines, she will sort of drift off and look away from me, and her demeanor will become kind of listless. We do not "win" arguments. We avoid them.

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    Polly - I've rarely lost an argument with my ENTp friend - mostly because he does many intuitive leaps without noticing that the logic behind them contains some false step which precludes further prosecution, whereas he says that "that step does't matter", and I go on a tirade on how formal logic needs every step to be true for the conclusions to be true etc etc. Actually, the only guy I've lost a debate to more than once is an ENFj.

    Also, I never follow bosses blindly - actually, I try to never have bosses, I just can't stand the thought of it.

    Generally speaking, your post is another mmh, bunch of stereotypes. How can you not value facts? There are ONLY facts and logic that can support an argument. Of course, you can connect them via hunches, but this doesn't mean that you can avoid altoghether their usage, unless you wanna make yourself look like a fool.
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    that's all nice polly. But collaboration is going to be the most productive means in any field. Combining information, technique and even ethics will lead to a better end.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Polly - I've rarely lost an argument with my ENTp friend - mostly because he does many intuitive leaps without noticing that the logic behind them contains some false step which precludes further prosecution, whereas he says that "that step does't matter", and I go on a tirade on how formal logic needs every step to be true for the conclusions to be true etc etc. Actually, the only guy I've lost a debate to more than once is an ENFj.
    What do you debate about?

    Also, I never follow bosses blindly - actually, I try to never have bosses, I just can't stand the thought of it.

    Generally speaking, your post is another mmh, bunch of stereotypes. How can you not value facts? There are ONLY facts and logic that can support an argument. Of course, you can connect them via hunches, but this doesn't mean that you can avoid altoghether their usage, unless you wanna make yourself look like a fool.
    and of course,
    what are the facts?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Well, not sure how me merely providing my insights into the ISTJ and and INTJ came to be a lecture about ENTP intuitiveness...but anyway...

    some arguments are kind of hard to defend without facts. don't give yourself too much credit
    Translation: I don't respect your intuitive abilities and don't let them go to your head. Just because you have this talent, you shouldn't really use it because its not something I value. (despite it being my strongest tool I have at my disposal to get through life considering my memory for details).

    By focusing on that, you just annoyed me. Why? Because you have no idea of all the facts I've taken into consideration in order to take these intuitive leaps. To me, you are being small and narrow minded.

    You are also assuming I don't have the emotional maturity to know the difference between discussing a concept/idea vs. the reality of applying it to a situation. I'm not some naive child. If anything, I feel really misunderstood by the majority of the population, especially when they make comments like above.

    That's an awful lot of assuming going on your part, doesn't sound very factual to me. To apply the way you think to an ENTP is not fair. We like all the other types, think differently than you.

    Who said I don't base my arguments on facts btw? One of things I was speaking to another ENTP in another thread is how we will often get taken advantage of because we need to weigh all the possiblities before making a decision on something. Putting completely false information out there is to me, like polluting the knowledge canal.

    If I'm making an intuitive leap I always put some qualifier in there first saying, "well this is just my perseception so it could be wrong" or "this is what I got from the situation".

    It doesn't matter so much to me that I'm wrong as it is I come to a higher understanding. When I was younger and less mature, being right was far more important to me.

    You are forgetting that ENTps are extremely curious creatures. When I have a question, I'm compelled to seek out the answer. This exposes me to MOUNTAINS of information that I absorb and convert into concept/theory to remember.

    When you also take into consideration what i can do with that information with my intuitive abilties, at the very least, I deserve enough respect to be listened to and my ideas be given some thought.

    If I'm wrong...I'm wrong. As I get older and hone my intuitive abilities more, I see the mistakes I made when I was younger. I improve the way I apply my intuition.

    As to collaboration, I whole heartedly agree. Again though, feels like kind of warning from people based on irrational fear of what they see other's doing. Doesn't really have anything to do with me and the way I 'actually' behave. Its like your assuming I can never switch gears too. I mean, I actually have to function in society, hold down a job, write reports....it seems kind of silly in a way to me that people wouldn't think I'd know this stuff.

    One of my favorite types to work with is the INTJ because of how we can work together, them in the detailed and me providing insights. You don't hear the same complaints about an INTJs ideas, despite the fact myself and an INTJ will come up with the exact same conclusions.

    I'll give an insight that makes them think hmmm and gets the cogs turning. They actually make me feel pretty justified most times.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly
    some arguments are kind of hard to defend without facts. don't give yourself too much credit
    Translation: I don't respect your intuitive abilities and don't let them go to your head. Just because you have this talent, you shouldn't really use it because its not something I value. (despite it being my strongest tool I have at my disposal to get through life considering my memory for details).
    slow down. that's not really what i meant. it seemed as if you were just discounting facts as this irrelevant spectre of discussion, and from an entp pov i'm sure the istj's general disposition of being factual is even more transparent which is maybe why you came across so overbearing in that paragraph, but my reply was not intended to be offensive. no one is discounting your ability to retain and recite facts, and i agree with you more or less. istj's are often fair game in conceptual discussion. most ST's are somewhat.

  31. #31

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    Every single person uses all 4 functions, N,S,T, and F. What makes each type different is where each function lies on the information processing hierarchy. You cannot form big-picture ideas without piecing them together from facts and details. Implementation of details are meaningless if they aren't linked to some overall goal/idea. To say that an ENTP or an INTJ ignores details and only focuses on concepts and theory is quite naive. Just as naive as saying that an ISTJ is incapable of grasping abstract ideas. The intuitive uses details to form theory, the sensor takes a theory and fills in the details. The difference is where we end up and what functions are most efficient.

    In reality it's very difficult for an ENTP to jump into an ISFJs shoes and have a meaningful understanding of how their mind works. Because their brain is sort of "rearranged" so to speak. And yours is to them as well. So these misunderstandings are unavoidable, even to those who specialize in extraverted intuitive perception like Polly. Surely there are times she has scratched her head at a sensor and said "how the hell can they possibly think about the situation that way!"

    The warm and fuzzy message is that we all need each other for the world to turn. Intuitives can't connect the dots if there are no dots to connect. Theories are of no practical value if their details cannot be realized by sensors. It's the Yin and the Yang. I respect all S-types (even those oh-so-alien to me ESFJs), and if people perceive NT types as arrogant it's partly because yes, we are. But it's also because we can't always understand where the other party is coming from. And human nature is to discount what it doesn't understand. All types do this, and unfortunately it has been and continues to be a major cause of the world's ills. Hopefully in this forum of openness, communication, and understanding we can help each other embrace our differences.

    What I'm really saying is, can't we all just get along?
    Mr. Crumbles
    INTJ

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