Differences between ESEs and SEEs (ESFj vs. ESFp)

[ScarlettLux]

So I've noticed that SEE and ESE girlies are abounds everywhere and they really seem to have a striking number of similarities that I can't seem to tell apart.

What would you say are the best methods to do so, or what habits/interests set them apart from one another? Also in terms of VI -- I used to think SEEs were "harder" but I can't really tell anymore.

I am especially interested in how an SEE & an ESE would appear to function in SOCIAL groups -- that is, how do they come across upon interacting with friends, etc. Would an SEE be more of a leader, more impulsive/random?

I've also kind of noticed that SEEs don't have as huge a 'group' of friends that always sticks together, but is more one on one or small group.

Also in regards to interest in FASHION & popular media culture -- how would this manifest itself differently for the two extraverted SFs? ESEs are said to care a lot about clothing and I've noticed an ESE sorority sister being very into different kinds of makeup, stocking up on lots of beauty products she doesn't need... whereas my SEE close friend seems to not care AS much but still has an awesome, natural sense of style. Like the ESE I know buys TONS of crap online, knows all the best deals, etc.

[EyeSeeCold]

One on One difference:
ESEs give off the impression of a self-sustaining "body" or "shop" and want to draw people in for a good time. The ESE leaves with everyone feeling better.

SEEs give off the impression of an influential figure and attempt to draw people in to make the people want(love) them. The SEE leaves with everyone wanting to follow.

I am especially interested in how an SEE & an ESE would appear to function in SOCIAL groups -- that is, how do they come across upon interacting with friends, etc. Would an SEE be more of a leader, more impulsive/random?

SEEs are more diplomats than the socially controlling ESEs. SEEs will use pressure in interpersonal matters for a hidden motive. ESEs will use persuasion(manipulation) to control an environment for everyone's sakes.

[yellow82]

All of the ESFp/SEE's I have known have been rather manipulative. While ESE's "can" manipulate we generally don't, and our reasons will be VERY different from an SEE's. SEE's manipulation is more self-centered, "I want to look good in front of others, I want to look like the most popular girl in school", and they generally don't care about the other person they're manipulating. While ESE's I have known genuinely care about the other person, so they will hold back information that they feel may hurt the other person.

While an unhealthy ESE can be VERY manipulative and VERY good at manipulating. An SEE tends to be more manipulative on a general scale. . . (and they're really good at manipulating the other person and making it look real. For one, I was friends with one for FOUR years, we called each other BEST FRIENDS, then one day she turned her back on me and said that she had never liked me, that she had only really liked my brother and since she knew we were close and he wouldn't talk to her if she wasn't on good terms with me, she went out and made me her best friend. . . to this day she still doesn't really understand why I don't trust her.)

Also, SEE's tend to be more "victimish" then ESE's. ESE's are much ore practical in general. ESFp's are flaunty, gaudy and social controling freaks. They want as many friends as they can get, ESE's just want to be loved by everybody and will do almost anything to be loved.

I find it interesting that you think that ESE's are more into fashion then SEE's becuase from what I have noticed ESE's tend to be more practical in clothing, and while we care about how we "look" we don't really care about style at all. All of the SEE's I have ever known care a great deal more about style then I do. . . whether I look better or not, does not mean that I care more. And honestly, although people think I spend a great deal of time and money on my makeup/clothes, I really don't. I'm just extremely capable of getting good deals, great clothes/makeup fast and affordable. As well as the fact that I can get dressed (with makeup) in 30 minutes, I also shop for clothes only once or twice a year (during the sales). Makeup once a month. . . shoes once every two years.

I hate shopping.

[EyeSeeCold]

While ESE's I have known genuinely care about the other person, so they will hold back information that they feel may hurt the other person.

Not necessarily. When a person's "best interests" are in mind, ESEs can and will override the person being hurt. Ignoring .

I find it interesting that you think that ESE's are more into fashion then SEE's becuase from what I have noticed ESE's tend to be more practical in clothing, and while we care about how we "look" we don't really care about style at all. All of the SEE's I have ever known care a great deal more about style then I do. . .

I will say ESEs (like LSEs) wear neutral clothing that isn't too provocative(it may be sensually appealing), they'll prefer not to wear controversial clothing(unless for specific occasions).

[717495]

ESEs are fluffy, SEEs are bouncy, and such jazz.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

All of the ESFp/SEE's I have known have been rather manipulative. While ESE's "can" manipulate we generally don't, and our reasons will be VERY different from an SEE's. SEE's manipulation is more self-centered, "I want to look good in front of others, I want to look like the most popular girl in school", and they generally don't care about the other person they're manipulating. While ESE's I have known genuinely care about the other person, so they will hold back information that they feel may hurt the other person.

While an unhealthy ESE can be VERY manipulative and VERY good at manipulating. An SEE tends to be more manipulative on a general scale. . . (and they're really good at manipulating the other person and making it look real. For one, I was friends with one for FOUR years, we called each other BEST FRIENDS, then one day she turned her back on me and said that she had never liked me, that she had only really liked my brother and since she knew we were close and he wouldn't talk to her if she wasn't on good terms with me, she went out and made me her best friend. . . to this day she still doesn't really understand why I don't trust her.)

Also, SEE's tend to be more "victimish" then ESE's. ESE's are much ore practical in general. ESFp's are flaunty, gaudy and social controling freaks. They want as many friends as they can get, ESE's just want to be loved by everybody and will do almost anything to be loved.

I find it interesting that you think that ESE's are more into fashion then SEE's becuase from what I have noticed ESE's tend to be more practical in clothing, and while we care about how we "look" we don't really care about style at all. All of the SEE's I have ever known care a great deal more about style then I do. . . whether I look better or not, does not mean that I care more. And honestly, although people think I spend a great deal of time and money on my makeup/clothes, I really don't. I'm just extremely capable of getting good deals, great clothes/makeup fast and affordable. As well as the fact that I can get dressed (with makeup) in 30 minutes, I also shop for clothes only once or twice a year (during the sales). Makeup once a month. . . shoes once every two years.

I hate shopping.

I would be interested to see an SEE's view of ESE.

[yellow82]

I would be interested to see an SEE's view of ESE.

That would be interesting.

But I have a feeling that they would call us manipulative, deceptive and emotionally needy.

[ashlesha]

I would be interested to see an SEE's view of ESE.

lol yeah.

ESEs have been much more manipulative *ime* but the ones i've known like that have been unhealthy 2s and i think it was more about that. i have a hard time separating ESEness from 2ness so i struggle with typing ESEs who aren't the typical 2 type. that said, with ESEs i get the impression they want to put themselves in my life and with SEEs its more like they might invite me into theirs. meh thats really subjective i guess. as far as leadership, with ESEs i get the impression they actively work to put themselves in that role and with SEEs it seems more like it just happens. the ESEs i've known have been more put together fashion wise but idk if thats type related. this is all subjective and based on my experience so yeah 2 cents.

[mu4]

ESE are good at being manipulative and they can try to be, but they usually end up giving more then they get back in return. This is one of the reason a lot of people like them, since nobody feels they got ripped off in the social interaction.

They mostly like being paid attention to and being needed by others for some reason or another.

SEE's are friendly but I feel like they're trying to get something from me usually, usually money, influence, sex, whatever they happen to want. I've found quite a few of them to be horrible at paying back their debt, which I view is untrustworthy.

[munenori2]

I'm glad someone else has trouble differentiating the two. Personally I still haven't figured it out, but here are the observations I use in telling the two apart (not saying that they're all that accurate though).

ESEs and SEEs are both imo social leaders. Either type will be the visible ones in group interactions. Energy levels will differ however. ESEs tend to exhibit a consistent high level of positivity. Most I know subscribe to the idea that emotions are transitive so they want to keep the atmosphere up if it kills them. Lots of negativity disturbs, annoys, and throws them off kilter. They aren't exactly impulsive but are led by their emotions in a way that often doesn't have a clear sense of what will happen as a result. To an extent, they will say things they suspect to be false merely as a way of keeping moods high. That isn't the same as lying, they aren't really fantastic judges of what will happen and tend to err on the sunny side. ESEs are more practical imo and are concerned with how people around them are doing in a manner more immediate and transitory than how an SEE would look at it.

The energy level of SEEs alternates from low relaxed states to hyperactive raucous behavior. They're more image driven than ESEs. They desire to be seen as important, influential, or at least like up and comers if they aren't yet. SEEs will talk about the things they want to be, without extremely clear ideas of the route that will get them there. They can be prone to get rich quick kind of thinking. They are also deeply impulsive individuals and, in the case of at least one SEE I know well, not very practical in money matters. Lending money to an SEE is tricky business. It's not that they don't have every intention of paying you back. In fact, they'll consider it something important and reassure you even if they can't afford to get your money back yet. However, they have difficulty differentiating between vital needs and simple desires, coupled with their proclivity to look good status wise, their discretionary income has a tendency to hit a paycheck to paycheck kind of living in the worst cases. Mired in the present, they poorly sense what needs to be done now to achieve later. SEEs are not the kind of person you want planning anything. SEEs are concerned about people around them as well, but it tends to take the form of being worried if people are trying to distance themselves from them. They'll go to significant lengths to maintain important relationships, which may not be merely personal nor professional but both. Frequently, SEEs try to establish friendships with people that have something tangible to offer them in return, though I'm not sure this is a distinction they are all that aware of, that they try to get close to people they want something from. What tends to bother SEEs most is when others get bogged down too much in all the different ways something could go down, when others expect their words to mean precisely what they implicate, or when others around them are uncertain or not possessed of clear and direct wills.

Because of their need to be seen as potent, SEEs respond very poorly to anything they perceive as attempts to 'make them look bad'. This isn't always the intention, but take this example of my roommate: He invited a girl to come over and hang out with him while he, I, and a coworker of his were drinking. While watching a movie (No Country For Old Men), the three of us get into a discussion about attack dogs. The coworker and I are talking about how dangerous they would be (70+ pounds minimum, relentless, animals that have been bred for generations to hone their most aggressive, violent instincts) and my roommate is adamant that no dog could ever kill him or even seriously hurt him. This other guy and I were kind of laughing about it, trying to show him the realistic side of the scenario (they'd likely be faster than you, etc) and he just keeps getting louder and louder about, "NO! NO! I'M NOT GOING TO LET A DOG KILL ME! WHY WOULD YOU GUYS LET A DOG KILL YOU?" It's obvious he's actually getting riled up by the discussion, since this girl is sitting right next to him, and he makes the claim that all you have to do is stick your hands in its mouth and rip its jaw open while it leaps at your throat, which makes us bust out laughing. He gets so upset at this that he jumps off the couch, leans over me while I'm sitting, grabs me by the shoulders, shaking from adrenaline and anger and sort of growling/grunting, "I'M AN ANIMAL TOO!" I gently pushed him back and chuckled since I could tell he wasn't actually trying to be violent, gestured for him to take a seat and tried to placate him by saying, "Look, man. I'm not saying you couldn't kill an attack dog in one on one, but you've got to admit the dog's got a serious fighting chance." He just keeps shaking his head and saying things, jokingly, but still kind of serious like, "Do I really have to go kill a dog to prove I'm right?" The other guy wanted to keep the conversation going, but by then the girl and I tried to drop the subject and get back to the movie. Sort of a long anecdote there, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[ashlesha]

lol, that dog anectode was fantastic.

i heard on a radio talk show that if a dog is being aggressive you should stick your finger in its butt. idk if this is true, never tried it.

[munenori2]

i heard on a radio talk show that if a dog is being aggressive you should stick your finger in its butt. idk if this is true, never tried it.

I'll have to remember that one!

[yellow82]

Not necessarily. When a person's "best interests" are in mind, ESEs can and will override the person being hurt. Ignoring .

Well actually, we will only do that if it will hurt the person less to hurt them at that moment then later. . . like if a guy asked us out and we knew it wouldn't work in the long-run we would tell him straight-out that we weren't interested, (and I even give a list of reasons why. . . unless he's SO creepy I'm scared of him, being that I want to get away as soon as possible. . . )

An SEE on the other hand will look at the guy as a: "what can he offer me?" If he offers them something that they like greatly, say riches, or he's strikingly handsome, they will overlook the fact that they don't like certain other things about him and date him. . . later finding out that it simply won't work and then hurting the man in the process.

For an example, an SEE friend of mine, (the only SEE I have ever liked, because I get a kick out of her. . . [she's hilarious],) went out with a guy just because he was rich. She had no serious interest in him, she just wanted money for clothes, etc. As soon as she got everything that she wanted from him, she moved on. She imagined that her presence was worth everything that she took from him money-wise. . . to me the idea was just propostorous, but hilarious.

ESE's generally ask the question: "do I love them, do they love me? Is our love genuine? Do they have the basics on my list?" And if the guy doesn't meet all of those standards we'll promptly tell him to move on.

I think because we know how much it hurts to not be loved, or to be used we rarely rarely dislike people and we never pretend to love someone that we don't. And even though we dislike them we will have a tendency of trying to focus only on the good that we know in them when we talk to others about them. Just because we don't like them, doesn't mean they deserve to be disliked by others.

I will say ESEs (like LSEs) wear neutral clothing that isn't too provocative(it may be sensually appealing), they'll prefer not to wear controversial clothing(unless for specific occasions).

ESEs have been much more manipulative *ime* but the ones i've known like that have been unhealthy 2s and i think it was more about that. i have a hard time separating ESEness from 2ness so i struggle with typing ESEs who aren't the typical 2 type. that said, with ESEs i get the impression they want to put themselves in my life and with SEEs its more like they might invite me into theirs. meh thats really subjective i guess. as far as leadership, with ESEs i get the impression they actively work to put themselves in that role and with SEEs it seems more like it just happens. the ESEs i've known have been more put together fashion wise but idk if thats type related. this is all subjective and based on my experience so yeah 2 cents.

You make it sound as though 2's are always unhealthy which is SO sad. . . because healthy 2's are about the awesomest people out there IMO, of course, unhealthy two's are terrible. . .

Btw, ESE's will back off if they get nettled and they may dislike you for it. . . so if you're nettling people you might want to take note of that. But you're probably right, I know there are several unhealthy ESE's out there, I just haven't met any yet. . . (but I hang around in conservative very moral circles. . . )

Btw, you almost sound like you're describing an SEE to me instead of an ESE. . . but perhaps you've only known nutty ESE's. . .?

Fyi, I don't like to lead. I often get forced to because I'm good at it, but I prefer someone else to do the job. Although, I never complain, and if someone asks me I will say yes. . . so maybe I give that impression. . . but I do it because I believe that people want me to, and I'd hate being all nasty in their face telling them to find someone else.

ESE are good at being manipulative and they can try to be, but they usually end up giving more then they get back in return. This is one of the reason a lot of people like them, since nobody feels they got ripped off in the social interaction.

They mostly like being paid attention to and being needed by others for some reason or another.

SEE's are friendly but I feel like they're trying to get something from me usually, usually money, influence, sex, whatever they happen to want. I've found quite a few of them to be horrible at paying back their debt, which I view is untrustworthy.

Pretty good general description.

I'm glad someone else has trouble differentiating the two. Personally I still haven't figured it out, but here are the observations I use in telling the two apart (not saying that they're all that accurate though).

ESEs and SEEs are both imo social leaders. Either type will be the visible ones in group interactions. Energy levels will differ however. ESEs tend to exhibit a consistent high level of positivity. Most I know subscribe to the idea that emotions are transitive so they want to keep the atmosphere up if it kills them. Lots of negativity disturbs, annoys, and throws them off kilter. They aren't exactly impulsive but are led by their emotions in a way that often doesn't have a clear sense of what will happen as a result. To an extent, they will say things they suspect to be false merely as a way of keeping moods high. That isn't the same as lying, they aren't really fantastic judges of what will happen and tend to err on the sunny side. ESEs are more practical imo and are concerned with how people around them are doing in a manner more immediate and transitory than how an SEE would look at it.

The energy level of SEEs alternates from low relaxed states to hyperactive raucous behavior. They're more image driven than ESEs. They desire to be seen as important, influential, or at least like up and comers if they aren't yet. SEEs will talk about the things they want to be, without extremely clear ideas of the route that will get them there. They can be prone to get rich quick kind of thinking. They are also deeply impulsive individuals and, in the case of at least one SEE I know well, not very practical in money matters. Lending money to an SEE is tricky business. It's not that they don't have every intention of paying you back. In fact, they'll consider it something important and reassure you even if they can't afford to get your money back yet. However, they have difficulty differentiating between vital needs and simple desires, coupled with their proclivity to look good status wise, their discretionary income has a tendency to hit a paycheck to paycheck kind of living in the worst cases. Mired in the present, they poorly sense what needs to be done now to achieve later. SEEs are not the kind of person you want planning anything. SEEs are concerned about people around them as well, but it tends to take the form of being worried if people are trying to distance themselves from them. They'll go to significant lengths to maintain important relationships, which may not be merely personal nor professional but both. Frequently, SEEs try to establish friendships with people that have something tangible to offer them in return, though I'm not sure this is a distinction they are all that aware of, that they try to get close to people they want something from. What tends to bother SEEs most is when others get bogged down too much in all the different ways something could go down, when others expect their words to mean precisely what they implicate, or when others around them are uncertain or not possessed of clear and direct wills.

Because of their need to be seen as potent, SEEs respond very poorly to anything they perceive as attempts to 'make them look bad'. This isn't always the intention, but take this example of my roommate: He invited a girl to come over and hang out with him while he, I, and a coworker of his were drinking. While watching a movie (No Country For Old Men), the three of us get into a discussion about attack dogs. The coworker and I are talking about how dangerous they would be (70+ pounds minimum, relentless, animals that have been bred for generations to hone their most aggressive, violent instincts) and my roommate is adamant that no dog could ever kill him or even seriously hurt him. This other guy and I were kind of laughing about it, trying to show him the realistic side of the scenario (they'd likely be faster than you, etc) and he just keeps getting louder and louder about, "NO! NO! I'M NOT GOING TO LET A DOG KILL ME! WHY WOULD YOU GUYS LET A DOG KILL YOU?" It's obvious he's actually getting riled up by the discussion, since this girl is sitting right next to him, and he makes the claim that all you have to do is stick your hands in its mouth and rip its jaw open while it leaps at your throat, which makes us bust out laughing. He gets so upset at this that he jumps off the couch, leans over me while I'm sitting, grabs me by the shoulders, shaking from adrenaline and anger and sort of growling/grunting, "I'M AN ANIMAL TOO!" I gently pushed him back and chuckled since I could tell he wasn't actually trying to be violent, gestured for him to take a seat and tried to placate him by saying, "Look, man. I'm not saying you couldn't kill an attack dog in one on one, but you've got to admit the dog's got a serious fighting chance." He just keeps shaking his head and saying things, jokingly, but still kind of serious like, "Do I really have to go kill a dog to prove I'm right?" The other guy wanted to keep the conversation going, but by then the girl and I tried to drop the subject and get back to the movie. Sort of a long anecdote there, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

You have SEE's down to a "t"! I've noticed all of these tendencies in their type and they bug me greatly. . . btw, what type are you?

[munenori2]

Oh, well, I'm definitely some kind of alpha/delta introvert. I think I'm SEI, but I waffle sometimes.

[ScarlettLux]

LOL someone is a little biased against SEEs huh... just a little O__o

But um yeah... positive traits anyone?

I know two SEEs who are adorable and even come off as SEIs but they're definitely not... they don't have any of those negative qualities, none of them.

[munenori2]

Charming, endless source of wild crazy shenanigans, clear sense of purpose, confidence, can take or leave most anything without getting stressed out about it, go getters, fearless, know what they like and don't like, good companions...

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I live with an ESE (maybe ESE E2). She's not the healthiest example, but it might help balance out the SEE hate.

She has a quick wit and is very funny, if horribly spastic at times. She's pretty reaction-seeking, which may be why she likes acting spastic. She likes to do things for people and can run herself ragged trying to make them happy. I appreciate her giving nature, but I feel like she needs to "take" more. She has a mind for finances, so she manages theirs. She expects people to be where they said they would be, when they said they would be; and she wants to be the same way. I would say she's fairly practical.

On the flipside, she has a temper and can be pretty explosive (she's gotten better over the years). I'm no longer sure whether it's a lack of control or an attempt to control. From my point of view, she has a tendency to overreact to things. Certain things she says strike me as "guilting", and they get on my nerves. She's rather hypersensitive about people's reactions to her, and she seems to believe the negative possibility over the positive ("That must have been aimed at _____", "I must have offended them somehow"). One thing I've really come to resent is the double standard of her being able to bitch at us while we get in serious trouble for doing it back (she went into whiny "I don't need this" mode once, which pissed me off more). There are some serious power issues, at least on my side, because she did try to control me for a time. She still has a tendency to use the things we care about against us, to threaten to take them if we don't obey. I play within the "rules" for now, keeping the things I love close to me and away from her, and giving her as few weapons to use against me as possible. As far as what I think of her crap, that'll wait until I'm out of striking distance and no longer under her roof. I also look forward to the day I can prove that she has no more control over me.

I don't know any SEEs. Sorry. (^.^

[Suz]

yeah it's sounding more like my mom is ESE, as I originally thought.

Thanks guys, these posts have made me realize some of my preconceived notions about ESEs were wrong (e.g. the fashion/style/shopping issue), but this also confirms my mom's type more since she is not that into fashion and latest trends and that had always sort of thrown me off. But she's HORRIBLE at planning, which still throws me for a loop. I'm better at planning than she is. She could perhaps be SEI, though she seems extravert to me. During my childhood there had been times where I was seriously mad at her for holding up my productivity in favor of "the proper way to do it" when that really didn't matter in the end (but the productivity did) so thinking back she seemed to be Ti-valuing that way. Also her life is all about caregiving, that's essentially what she sees her purpose in life to be. But she's not too into large get togethers. She actually gets stressed out by them, but that's because she obsesses over having enough good food for everyone, and for everything to look spotless and perfect, and she gets so worried that people wont have a good time, like she TOTALLY goes overboard it's crazy. We had leftovers for WEEKS, nay MONTHS, after a recent family reunion we hosted. So even though the reluctance to host big get togethers seems to go against ESE, the reason why and the behavior behind orchestrating one seems to support ESE as a typing for her. I also think she is stacked sp/sx which could also explain this a bit more.

I wouldn't say she's always positive though. In fact, I feel like she's often too negative about all sorts of stuff. And very moody. IN PUBLIC though, she will put on a face of eternal positivity, unless the situation calls for something different, so i can see how people might think ESEs are always positive. That does make me think Fe>Fi for my mom.

Also, for example, if i'm upset with her or something, me displaying some negative emotion in public is like the worst possible offense I could do; she'll be like "STOP it, you're in public, aren't you ashamed??" Or "lower your voice, the neighbors will hear you!!" (and like my voice isn't that loud even, it's not like i'm screaming), or other some such nonsense that I see aimed at just shutting me up without addressing the key underlying issue that made me upset in the first place. And she seems to be really panicked about it, like the public hearing there's a problem is more important to her than finding out why i'm upset.

That said, we are close and we do get along for the most part. She really is a real sweetie despite all this. I'm just picking and choosing certain distinctive traits that have sort of guided me in picking a type for her, which admittedly has not been straightforward at all.

[mu4]

yeah it's sounding more like my mom is ESE, as I originally thought.

Thanks guys, these posts have made me realize some of my preconceived notions about ESEs were wrong (e.g. the fashion/style/shopping issue), but this also confirms my mom's type more since she is not that into fashion and latest trends and that had always sort of thrown me off. But she's HORRIBLE at planning, which still throws me for a look. I'm better at planning than she is. She could perhaps be SEI, though she seems extravert to me. During my childhood there had been times where I was seriously mad at her for holding up my productivity in favor of "the proper way to do it" when that really didn't matter in the end (but the productivity did) so thinking back she seemed to be Ti-valuing that way. Also her life is all about caregiving, that's essentially what she sees her purpose in life to be. But she's not too into large get togethers. She actually gets stressed out by them, but that's because she obsesses over having enough good food for everyone, and for everything to look spotless and perfect, and she gets so worried that people wont have a good time, like she TOTALLY goes overboard it's crazy. We had leftovers for WEEKS, nay MONTHS, after a recent family reunion we hosted. So even though the reluctance to host big get togethers seems to go against ESE, the reason why and the behavior behind orchestrating one seems to support ESE as a typing for her. I also think she is stacked sp/sx which could also explain this a bit more.

I wouldn't say she's always positive though. In fact, I feel like she's often too negative about all sorts of stuff. And very moody. IN PUBLIC though, she will put on a face of eternal positivity, unless the situation calls for something different, so i can see how people might think ESEs are always positive. That does make me think Fe>Fi for my mom.

Also, for example, if i'm upset with her or something, me displaying some negative emotion in public is like the worst possible offense I could do; she'll be like "STOP it, you're in public, aren't you ashamed??" Or "lower your voice, the neighbors will hear you!!" (and like my voice isn't that loud even, it's not like i'm screaming), or other some such nonsense that I see aimed at just shutting me up without addressing the key underlying issue that made me upset in the first place. And she seems to be really panicked about it, like the public hearing there's a problem is more important to her than finding out why i'm upset.

That said, we are close and we do get along for the most part. She really is a real sweetie despite all this. I'm just picking and choosing certain distinctive traits that have sort of guided me in picking a type for her, which admittedly has not been straightforward at all.

My mom is like this, but she's not ESE, she's EIE. She can be very positive to other people, but she is whiny, nagging, a bit paranoid to others. My ESE friend is not really like this, he's positive, probably more positive then he should be and his problem is that he under plans for things and thus can run into trouble. ESE's are also not a stickler for time as they're constantly late to everything and anything, their PoLR function is Ni. The one thing that always surprise me is how little they worry about stuff publicly or even with their close ones, this is actually a way they get into trouble because they leave things undone. Also, I tend to find them fashion snobs although their sense of fashion is more traditional/classical then eccentric or controversial.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I live with an ESE (maybe ESE E2). She's not the healthiest example, but it might help balance out the SEE hate.

She has a quick wit and is very funny, if horribly spastic at times. She's pretty reaction-seeking, which may be why she likes acting spastic. She likes to do things for people and can run herself ragged trying to make them happy. I appreciate her giving nature, but I feel like she needs to "take" more. She has a mind for finances, so she manages theirs. She expects people to be where they said they would be, when they said they would be; and she wants to be the same way. I would say she's fairly practical.

On the flipside, she has a temper and can be pretty explosive (she's gotten better over the years). I'm no longer sure whether it's a lack of control or an attempt to control. From my point of view, she has a tendency to overreact to things. Certain things she says strike me as "guilting", and they get on my nerves. She's rather hypersensitive about people's reactions to her, and she seems to believe the negative possibility over the positive ("That must have been aimed at _____", "I must have offended them somehow"). One thing I've really come to resent is the double standard of her being able to bitch at us while we get in serious trouble for doing it back (she went into whiny "I don't need this" mode once, which pissed me off more). There are some serious power issues, at least on my side, because she did try to control me for a time. She still has a tendency to use the things we care about against us, to threaten to take them if we don't obey. I play within the "rules" for now, keeping the things I love close to me and away from her, and giving her as few weapons to use against me as possible. As far as what I think of her crap, that'll wait until I'm out of striking distance and no longer under her roof. I also look forward to the day I can prove that she has no more control over me.

I don't know any SEEs. Sorry. (^.^

Forgot a few things.

My mother is very sensitive to being accused of lying (integrity issue, I guess). One time, she returned something to a store the same day she bought it. This doesn't usually require a driver's license, but the clerk asked for one. Mom felt horribly insulted and said she didn't appreciate being treated like she was trying to do something dishonest.

She has/had a tendency to do things without checking with Dad first, even if he might not be thrilled with what she's doing. She used to bring pets home; when I asked her what Dad would say about it, she'd reply, "I didn't ask."

When one of my siblings, who can be a bit high-strung, stresses out over something, Mom tends to tease her. Turns out this is Mom's way of trying to make her laugh (and maybe feel better?).

[Suz]

I live with an ESE (maybe ESE E2). She's not the healthiest example, but it might help balance out the SEE hate.

She has a quick wit and is very funny, if horribly spastic at times. She's pretty reaction-seeking, which may be why she likes acting spastic. She likes to do things for people and can run herself ragged trying to make them happy. I appreciate her giving nature, but I feel like she needs to "take" more. She has a mind for finances, so she manages theirs. She expects people to be where they said they would be, when they said they would be; and she wants to be the same way. I would say she's fairly practical.

On the flipside, she has a temper and can be pretty explosive (she's gotten better over the years). I'm no longer sure whether it's a lack of control or an attempt to control. From my point of view, she has a tendency to overreact to things. Certain things she says strike me as "guilting", and they get on my nerves. She's rather hypersensitive about people's reactions to her, and she seems to believe the negative possibility over the positive ("That must have been aimed at _____", "I must have offended them somehow"). One thing I've really come to resent is the double standard of her being able to bitch at us while we get in serious trouble for doing it back (she went into whiny "I don't need this" mode once, which pissed me off more). There are some serious power issues, at least on my side, because she did try to control me for a time. She still has a tendency to use the things we care about against us, to threaten to take them if we don't obey. I play within the "rules" for now, keeping the things I love close to me and away from her, and giving her as few weapons to use against me as possible. As far as what I think of her crap, that'll wait until I'm out of striking distance and no longer under her roof. I also look forward to the day I can prove that she has no more control over me.

I don't know any SEEs. Sorry. (^.^

OMG, yeah my mom has very similar traits as well, all of the above really. The controlling issue is even worse towards my sister (EII) because I know how to escape it better than she does (though I'm still not great at it). My sister is learning though and I stick up for her when my mom starts complaining to me about my sister's "rebelliousness" (NOT! she's like the most unrebellious person ever). I also noticed that my mom twists the story when she complains to me about my sister and gives me this huge sob story for an hour about how my sister did such a terrible thing by e.g. turning off her phone, not returning my mom's 10 phone calls per hour, her apartment being "messy", going off to dance class (my sister's hobby), etc etc. And then i talk to my sister and it's like a TOTALLY different story and i'm like my mom made a huge deal about THAT??

[Suz]

Forgot a few things.

My mother is very sensitive to being accused of lying (integrity issue, I guess). One time, she returned something to a store the same day she bought it. This doesn't usually require a driver's license, but the clerk asked for one. Mom felt horribly insulted and said she didn't appreciate being treated like she was trying to do something dishonest.

Yep my mom too. EXACTLY. She also doesn't take too kindly to being called "unjust".

[CILi]

OMG, yeah my mom has very similar traits as well, all of the above really. The controlling issue is even worse towards my sister (EII) because I know how to escape it better than she does (though I'm still not great at it). My sister is learning though and I stick up for her when my mom starts complaining to me about my sister's "rebelliousness" (NOT! she's like the most unrebellious person ever). I also noticed that my mom twists the story when she complains to me about my sister and gives me this huge sob story for an hour about how my sister did such a terrible thing by e.g. turning off her phone, not returning my mom's 10 phone calls per hour, her apartment being "messy", going off to dance class (my sister's hobby), etc etc. And then i talk to my sister and it's like a TOTALLY different story and i'm like my mom made a huge deal about THAT??

Pop a sprog.

Maybe it's a "Mom" thing.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

My mom is like this, but she's not ESE, she's EIE. She can be very positive to other people, but she is whiny, nagging, a bit paranoid to others. My ESE friend is not really like this, he's positive, probably more positive then he should be and his problem is that he under plans for things and thus can run into trouble. ESE's are also not a stickler for time as they're constantly late to everything and anything, their PoLR function is Ni. The one thing that always surprise me is how little they worry about stuff publicly or even with their close ones, this is actually a way they get into trouble because they leave things undone. Also, I tend to find them fashion snobs although their sense of fashion is more traditional/classical then eccentric or controversial.

I don't know about that. Out of my family, my mother is probably the most dedicated to getting somewhere on time. Her husband (LSI) tends to piss her off because he's trying to cram last-minute projects into a small amount of time.

[Suz]

My mom is like this, but she's not ESE, she's EIE. She can be very positive to other people, but she is whiny, nagging, a bit paranoid to others. My ESE friend is not really like this, he's positive, probably more positive then he should be and his problem is that he under plans for things and thus can run into trouble. ESE's are also not a stickler for time as they're constantly late to everything and anything, their PoLR function is Ni. The one thing that always surprise me is how little they worry about stuff publicly or even with their close ones, this is actually a way they get into trouble because they leave things undone. Also, I tend to find them fashion snobs although their sense of fashion is more traditional/classical then eccentric or controversial.

Hmmm, yeah i've considered EIE for her actually as well. She seems to appreciate Si sorts of things though, very much so, like incredibly so. She gives a lot of importance to relaxation and rest, being healthy, etc, etc.

And not being a stickler for time rings very true for her. so I still think ESE fits better. I know EIEs are HUGE time sticklers and punctuality is of the utmost importance to them.

[Suz]

I don't know about that. Out of my family, my mother is probably the most dedicated to getting somewhere on time. Her husband (LSI) tends to piss her off because he's trying to cram last-minute projects into a small amount of time.

Well maybe she's WORRIED about getting someplace on time (my understanding is that Ni-egos dont worry about getting someplace on time, they just naturally do it). Heck I'm always worried about being late; but i am usually running late everywhere. And your mom might be relatively good at being punctual because she has that underlying Ti-guidance from her LSI husband and perhaps the expectation of punctuality from him (Ni-HA). He doesn't have Ni in his life though which could be why he's a bad judge of cramming last minute stuff in.

[Suz]

Pop a sprog.

wait, translate??

Maybe it's a "Mom" thing.

yeah could definitely be, for what you quoted. There's definitely a tangible element of Fe though in the way she does it.

[mu4]

Her husband (LSI) tends to piss her off because he's trying to cram last-minute projects into a small amount of time.

I find this more to be a EJ thing, they tend to have a overabundance of small things to do which they think they can cram into their day.

[mu4]

Hmmm, yeah i've considered EIE for her actually as well. She seems to appreciate Si sorts of things though, very much so, like incredibly so. She gives a lot of importance to relaxation and rest, being healthy, etc, etc.

And not being a stickler for time rings very true for her. so I still think ESE fits better. I know EIEs are HUGE time sticklers and punctuality is of the utmost importance to them.

I wouldn't say ESE are health nuts, they are concerned about it to a certain extent. I've met more EIE health nuts but they tend to be neurotic about it. I think EIE are more prone to have neurotic issues with health then ESE. The ESE's I know are more hedonistic but still manage to maintain some semblance of balance while EIE's I've know are extreme in either being paranoid about every health issue or self-destructive.

[Sir Knight]

Well maybe she's WORRIED about getting someplace on time (my understanding is that Ni-egos dont worry about getting someplace on time, they just naturally do it). Heck I'm always worried about being late; but i am usually running late everywhere. And your mom might be relatively good at being punctual because she has that underlying Ti-guidance from her LSI husband and perhaps the expectation of punctuality from him (Ni-HA). He doesn't have Ni in his life though which could be why he's a bad judge of cramming last minute stuff in.

Hmmm... I'd say that any relationship between here-and-now, physical, "clock-time" and Ni is extremely tenuous at best. Any reference to Ni and time is really more about a subjective, personal experience of time that can speed up or slow down irrespective of what the clock says.

But to stay on the topic anyway, I don't really care if I'm on time or not. Our plans won't fall apart if I or someone else ends up having to wait another ten minutes.

[Clumsy]

SEE:

SEE's will subtly make you love them by being politicians and diplomats. They talk about themselves and draw positive attention their way. "Check this out!" or "Do you see how burnt I got over summer?" and then smile when you roll your eyes at them.

They're effortlessly charming. They don't mind making fun of themselves at all if it's in the spirit of having fun with everyone else. If someone throws negative attention on them, they may rearrange the other person's words pretty easily, either making it look like what the other person said is actually a positive trait or by turning a bit of the mistake back onto the other person (see Example 3 below). They disarm people with their confidence, by joking with others, and by helping them. They're friendly with everyone and like to keep everyone in a good mood.

They "manipulate" others by going with the flow and smoothing things over. They let go and move on from people more easily than an ESE.


Example 1:

"Oh really? Is that how you dissect a frog, so and so?" *mocking them playfully*

SEE girl: *plays along and pokes fun at self* Pleeeeasssse! I do this in my sleep! I'm a professional. *smiles confidently and laughs with the other person*

The SEE in this example doesn't take offense. They play along, and they quickly spin around the other person's comment.


Example 2:

"Hey, so and so. Thanks for your help on my project."

SEE girl: "Sure thing, girl!" *flashes a smile* "Cute dress by the way! Looking gooooood!"

They don't have to try to win people over. It's something they're naturally gifted at doing.


Example 3:

"I definitely don't think we're going the right way."

SEE girl: Really? Well we need to go to *insert place here*, right?

"I think you turned left when we needed to turn right."

SEE girl: Okay... so what's your point?

"We need to turn around."

SEE girl: Well who's reading the map? *says other person's name in a playful tone, poking lightly at them* I know, I know... Here, I'll get off at the next exit. We can just turn around then, alright? *avoids an argument by disarming the other person, things are better again*




ESE:

ESE's will make you love them more forcefully by doing everything for you, being helpers and thinking that by always helping you, you must love them. Sometimes, my one ESE friend will take on this outlook towards significant others: "Look at everything I've done for you. You should love me after all the hard work and things I've done to make you happy".

Politeness is huge. "Do you need me to help you with that, maim? Is there anything else I can do for you?" They can never be too helpful or polite to someone.

If an ESE feels insulted, they will retaliate by fighting fire with fire and defend themselves. Attacks from others are usually seen as personal ones, and they will usually come right back at you if provoked with the same attack. There's an undertone of defensiveness that lacks the 'bite' of an aggressor's attacking style. In fact, I think they tend to look a lot like EIE's and "victims" in this sense.

The ESE has more of an obvious need to be needed, need to be loved, need to be liked. This can show up as a huge insecurity in them as well. The SEE also desires to be liked (as much as the ESE I think), but it comes across in a much less paranoid, more carefree way. If it doesn't happen, they can move on. SEE's want (I think) to win people over with their personalities more than with the things they do for others. ESE's are the opposite.

As a general rule, ESE's tend to hate confrontation and will avoid it at any and all costs. SEE's, on the other hand, don't mind confrontation as much and will sometimes playfully egg people on.

ESE's "manipulate" others by being controlling, and they have trouble letting others go.


Example 1:

"Oh really? Is that how you dissect a frog, so and so?" *mocking them playfully*

ESE girl: *disapproving and visibly a bit hurt* "Well you can do it if you think you're better at it."

The ESE in this example takes offense. They're doing the work, and this person is making fun of them and making them feel unappreciated.


Example 2:

"Hey, so and so. Thanks for your help on my project."

ESE girl: "You're welcome. I actually didn't have much to do that night, and I'm usually pretty good at doing math. I've always liked math so it's nothing." *eyes the person for a moment* "You look cute today. I like your dress."

The ESE is modest. This isn't always the case, sometimes they ham it up, but they usually play off what they did simply because you thanked them. The important point here is that they really enjoy being thanked and appreciated, and it's usually more obvious that they want to hear this than the SEE does (although the SEE likes being thanked too). They absolutely love serving others and being needed/useful.


Example 3:

"I definitely don't think we're going the right way."

ESE girl: I know the area pretty well though.

"I think you turned left when we needed to turn right."

ESE girl: Maybe, but I know another way to get there. I'm just glad the traffic isn't that bad. I always say 'when the traffic is bad, just stay home'.


A general trend I notice with a lot of ESE's is they have and like to use lots of sayings. The ESE in this example also tries to smooth things over (like an SEE), but they do so while avoiding the confrontation and the conflict as much as possible. An SEE will not try as much to avoid confrontation, but they WILL try to avoid conflict.


The ESE avoids confrontation at all costs, unless they are so upset that they reach a breaking point. If they DO confront someone and bring something up, they will fight with the other person by poking at them to get a reaction (but not in jest as the SEE would). They will instead jab at the other person with the specific intent to get under their skin and get an emotional reaction out of them.

When SEE's are upset, they (from what I've noticed) will purposely choose to avoid the person instead of facing the issue head on (completely different from their more confrontational style when they're happy). They would usually rather have people come to them and apologize than have to call people out on anything. They too can jab at people hurtfully, but in general their fighting style is to be blunt, quiet and moody/upset under the surface, ignoring the other person until that person feels bad enough to say something about it.




I hope I didn't offend anyone with these examples. I tried not to make them too stereotypical and tried to base them off of the SEE's and ESE's I know in real life.

[EyeSeeCold]

If an ESE feels insulted, they will retaliate by fighting fire with fire and defend themselves. Attacks from others are usually seen as personal ones, and they will usually come right back at you if provoked with the same attack. There's an undertone of defensiveness that lacks the 'bite' of an aggressor's attacking style. In fact, I think they tend to look a lot like EIE's and "victims" in this sense.

IEI's actually.

ESFj ← INFp ← ENTj ← ISTp ← ESFj

"Temper tantrums".

Oh, nice post by the way. .

[Suz]

AMAZING post on SEE vs ESE

WOW clumsy this was awesome!!!!! It immediately made me recognize some SEEs vs ESEs in my life! (oh and my mom would most definitely fall into the ESE scenarios, not SEE in any case, for sure. Haven't ruled out EIE though).

Please more scenarios such as this regarding all the types!

[Suz]

To better understand what's "Mom-ish" and what's type-related, ...bear and raise a child.

LOLLL well for that i need to find a sperm donor first.

[ashlesha]

yeah clumsy, that post matched my perceptions and experience really well.

[mu4]

I don't think ESE are necessarily super helpful, they're more people who know everyone and they are very good at keeping themselves in the know about the pulse of whatever social environment they're in.

As far as needing love and affection, I think with LII as their dual, they're not going to get it all that easily. This may be different with females, but most male ESE I've known or met have a hard time keeping women from off of them, female ESE tend to run at any sign of someone trying to lock them down. This is a Fi ignoring type. ESE I've found to be pretty cool about love and romanticism, but they can be somewhat serial monogamists or polyamorists. It's usually SEE that get married 5 times and fall in crazy love with people then lose it.

[yellow82]

Your mom sounds more EIE to me WorkaholicsAnon. . .

ESE's usually adore EII's. . . and they usually control "us" in their kind and caring ways. We view them as our mentors.

I know this because I know an ESE that has an EII daughter. The daughter is the mentor in the relationship and her mother isn't the slightest bit ashamed of that.

However EIE's can have all of the traits that you ascribe. My brother is much that way. And btw, unlike what y'all are saying I ALWAYS get to a place early or on time. I'm rarely late. EIE's however, are late ALL the time. My twin hardly ever makes it to anything on time. Still love him though.

[Clumsy]

IEI's actually.

ESFj ← INFp ← ENTj ← ISTp ← ESFj

"Temper tantrums".

Oh, nice post by the way. .

You're right. I can definitely see what you're talking about in myself lol

Thanks!

[1981slater]

What would you say are the best methods to do so, or what habits/interests set them apart from one another? Also in terms of VI -- I used to think SEEs were "harder" but I can't really tell anymore.

ESE: natural smile
SEE: forced smile

ESE: constant monologue
SEE: talks and listens

Both react badly when dealing with someone who thinks in a different way. However, ESE tends to admit it openly and discuss her points with the other person. On the contrary, SEEs draw a upset face and start asking questions to the other person "why do you say so?" "who told you so?" and such

I am especially interested in how an SEE & an ESE would appear to function in SOCIAL groups -- that is, how do they come across upon interacting with friends, etc. Would an SEE be more of a leader, more impulsive/random?

ESEs are less subtle than SEEs.

I've also kind of noticed that SEEs don't have as huge a 'group' of friends that always sticks together, but is more one on one or small group.

I dunno

Also in regards to interest in FASHION & popular media culture -- how would this manifest itself differently for the two extraverted SFs? ESEs are said to care a lot about clothing and I've noticed an ESE sorority sister being very into different kinds of makeup, stocking up on lots of beauty products she doesn't need... whereas my SEE close friend seems to not care AS much but still has an awesome, natural sense of style. Like the ESE I know buys TONS of crap online, knows all the best deals, etc.

IMO, most ESEs are ellegant even with cheap clothes. Most SEEs waste lots of money in fashion, but seem unable to match the threads they buy. As someone said, following fashion is lame because it involves / trying to come across as /

[Clumsy]

WOW clumsy this was awesome!!!!! It immediately made me recognize some SEEs vs ESEs in my life! (oh and my mom would most definitely fall into the ESE scenarios, not SEE in any case, for sure. Haven't ruled out EIE though).

Please more scenarios such as this regarding all the types!

Wow, thanks! I'm glad it could be useful to you.

I'm not sure if I could be too helpful on all the other types. I'd like to think I know these two in particular pretty well because many of my good friends are ESE's or SEE's.

yeah clumsy, that post matched my perceptions and experience really well.

Thanks! I appreciate that. I'm glad to hear this matched up pretty well for you and my post wasn't too out there .