delta st discussion: how to be useful and at peace

[UDP]

Ok, let's talk.

(also, if you find this thread 'stereotypical', that's fine. I'm not intending such, I'm just trying to specifically get at something).



How have you come about it?
For me, my sense of peace is inexorably linked to productivity in some way. I know that's not necessarily healthy, and it's maybe not very conducive to being at rest, but, it is there. Maybe it's because of the EJ temperament or Te dominance.

And let me make it clear: I'm not captain productivity. Even just today I did a fair amount of sleeping and leisure activities, and it was enjoyable, but still.


I wonder how others have reconciled their want for productivity with a wanting for 'peace'. This might be somewhat of an offshoot of the delta slacker thread, but, one thing that stands out as a delta ST issue is figuring out how to fit 'others' into this matter. I think we're very good at 'doing things for other people" in the sense of protecting or providing for them, and yet, that can also be very shallow.

Shallow in the sense of - if you make your whole life out of 'meeting the needs of someone else', then, aren't you just being a puppet to some extent? Related, how do you select your own vision for what happiness is, for yourself? And how do you relate that to, yes, fitting in with the needs of others?

Perhaps I have a difficulty in juggling various needs like that, I'm not sure. Or perhaps because I don't have a strong sense of my own needs or wants, the needs of others become more amplified. What is certainly true is that there have been in situations where I've been so "involved" and even created a sense of "being needed" that it ultimately left me feeling empty and without an actual personal sense of direction, even though I didn't realize it until after everything had stopped. (Being caught up in the process, much?)


Anyway, perhaps more about this soon. I touched upon a lot of little ideas that can be developed.

[UDP]

One of the biggest things I'm wary about at this point in my life is 'being useful' in regard to someone else's definition of being useful. That might be strange to say, but, it's something I realized that a lot of caregivers fall into - especially being raised by so many of them. It's this sort of defaulting to other people's needs.

I think I was especially influenced by that growing up because, in spite of being 'encouraged' slightly to find my own needs or present them to the various caregivers and other people in my life, no one actually fleshed them out (perhaps because no one knew how, or no one had skill with intuition). And so for a long time I was searching for various 'outside' sources to reveal a certain 'path' for what would bring me fulfillment. But it never worked, because I ended up disagreeing with certain things. And probably because it also wasn't genuine enough.

So I'm somewhat disconcerted in that I do see a number of STs who have either bought into an ideology.... or conversely, become somewhat ambivalent and overly selfish. I'm sure it touches on deeper aspects of the human condition in general.


Still, It's perhaps the flipside of having delta NF duals - the possibility of us aligning our 'sense of needs / usefulness' so much to someone or some thing that it can ultimately be detrimental to our own selves. And when I say things like sense of usefulness, it's super easy for me to 'be on guard' or 'vigilant" to a situation or a particular set of needs. It's more or less a strong inclination to be a 'good soldier', this ability to focus and compartmentalize so much of time and energy and sense of peace / well being into achieving or doing one goal or thing. And yet it's something to be wary about.

And, quite frankly, it's something I don't understand. I've at times felt like I'm either destined to be 'someone else's soldier' or even pawn, or, conversely, someone completely and entirely aloof to the needs of others. And I'm still trying to figure out the right balance of both.


I think one new emergence in my own life, which has been this strange development of my own capacity to actually regulate relationships (helped out bigtime by a, yes, delta NF), might be interesting.

[DirectorAbbie]

Productivity is a big deal for me, too. If I am not an asset, I am useless and nobody will want me around. Of course, productivity is graded on a bell curve. I don't have to do everything, I just have to do more than everytone else around. To relax:

Phrased with God: I'm not responsible for the world. God is in charge, and I'm an underling. I just do my best and let God do the rest.

Phrased without God: There's no sense worrying because if I can do something about it, I can fix it, and if I can't do anything about it, it's not my problem.

[UDP]

Productivity is a big deal for me, too. If I am not an asset, I am useless and nobody will want me around. Of course, productivity is graded on a bell curve. I don't have to do everything, I just have to do more than everytone else around. To relax:

Phrased with God: I'm not responsible for the world. God is in charge, and I'm an underling. I just do my best and let God do the rest.

Phrased without God: There's no sense worrying because if I can do something about it, I can fix it, and if I can't do anything about it, it's not my problem.

Aside:
Abbie/You are is such a different version of me that it's creepy.
I believe your LSE, though. We're probably just different enneagram types and instinctual stackings.

[NinjaTim]

I would very much like to find how over people 'relax' also, as I find it hard to do completely. Often for me I am either relaxed in body, but not in mind, or vice versa which over time leads me to feel really quite exhausted. It's further complicated by the fact that what I find relaxing one day, I don't the next. At first I tried to draw a correlation between 'relaxors' and my moods at the time, but this only works in one scenario (describe below briefly) out of the hundreds of moods I have.
However I think that people are integrally linked to it in some way.
But in regards to the method that does work I have actually tried to use classical conditioning to relax myself, as whenever I feel mood A or feel that I will be in mood A soon, I will go to the nearest cafe and get a traditional iced coffee (with cream, ice cream etc) and I feel fully relaxed when I do that. And so now when I feel the need for relaxation I follow this ritual, it doesn't work 100% if I am not in mood A, but it is a more garunteed method than any other I have tried.

[UDP]

In my experience with one IEE, they don't seem to realize how certain things are going to further activate "their mind" or "their body"... like super Ne dominance gone awry. And then they get over exhausted, and this totally trainwrecks and schedule or flow of productivity.

I think that routines might actually be very important for IEEs - some sort of external form of consistency, even when internally they are super fluctuating... and keeping in mind even that might not ever be 'a guarantee'

[Marie84]

Interesting, do you feel like a lot of your guarded feelings towards others is related to unveiling if their intentions are situated in or just being projected as such ()?
I ask because I've struggled with gauging if some one is providing me with or at times than comes the frustration in not knowing if I'm accomplishing what I need to and how to go about doing it.
I think with Delta NF's it's about needing to trust that that we're being provided with reliable information instead of what said person believes to be true because it makes sense to them. Selecting the "wrong" information or approach leads to feeling deceived, incompetent and stupid causing even more self-doubt in being able to accomplish whatever needs to be done
I'd think Beta NF's feel a similar regard to feeling the Te burn by not getting a Ti approach to pragmatic matters

So blah, I think NF's feel a need for usefulness as well but the issues are more to do with filtering logical input whereas what you're describing sounds more like needing to filter relational authenticity, both seem just as scared at getting bamboozled...

[Lobo]

Productivity is a big deal for me, too. If I am not an asset, I am useless and nobody will want me around. Of course, productivity is graded on a bell curve. I don't have to do everything, I just have to do more than everytone else around. To relax:

Phrased with God: I'm not responsible for the world. God is in charge, and I'm an underling. I just do my best and let God do the rest.

Phrased without God: There's no sense worrying because if I can do something about it, I can fix it, and if I can't do anything about it, it's not my problem.

You don't have to be productive for people to want you around... Actually, productivity doesn't mean anything at times, as in, people won't value it "just because" you do. I've noticed this in Si-creatives, and I usually try to convince them that people don't really notice or really care at times (even most of the time) about your productivity as much as they think they do. A chill pill is in order, extra strength. Also, you're a human being, not a human doing, if you want to get into the Christian spiritual aspect of all this.

[UDP]

I forgot abou this one

Interesting, do you feel like a lot of your guarded feelings towards others is related to unveiling if their intentions are situated in or just being projected as such ()?

I'm not sure.
I realize I have a lot of negative mental noise about such things, and that it is changeable.

I think sometimes delta STs can become "emo" or "negative" about certain manners of relational formation because they have bad experiences in the past, form being clueless or unaware. And I think it's a good idea to separate those images and past experiences from whatever competence level there is. Competence can be trained, but images and 'feelings' have to be acknowledged, mitigated, or some other form of constructively dealing with them ; no amount of training can have affect if underlying psychological trauma or 'influence' remains untended.

Tangential, but, important I think.

I ask because I've struggled with gauging if some one is providing me with or at times than comes the frustration in not knowing if I'm accomplishing what I need to and how to go about doing it.

Ah, yeah, I understand that I believe. And how that relates to your previous Fe/Fi remark.

When I can't tell if someone is being nice in a "oh I'm giving you nice feelings because it's appropriate" vs "I actually like you so be I'm being nice to you", it's weird. I'm also sometimes suspicious of people who do actually like me but express it in more "Fe" terms, at first. And yes, I can even misjudge Fi in that way, too.

I think with Delta NF's it's about needing to trust that that we're being provided with reliable information instead of what said person believes to be true because it makes sense to them. Selecting the "wrong" information or approach leads to feeling deceived, incompetent and stupid causing even more self-doubt in being able to accomplish whatever needs to be done
I'd think Beta NF's feel a similar regard to feeling the Te burn by not getting a Ti approach to pragmatic matters

Yes

So blah, I think NF's feel a need for usefulness as well but the issues are more to do with filtering logical input whereas what you're describing sounds more like needing to filter relational authenticity, both seem just as scared at getting bamboozled...

yeah, exactly,, actually.

I wonder if the NFs feel the flipside of what I feel, also, in weird and unfamiliar situations.... just in T instead of F sense.

My weirdness with F sense sometimes makes me feel like I don't know WHAT to do, I don't know how to formulate or perceive a situation, so I default to a certain sort of ambiguity or non-involvement, which makes me feel weird.

I feel like I handle "T" (or just "impersonal") situations better because I can easily evaluate what is 'profitable to me' or at least what actions will get what results I want. And in moments of confusion I have a much stronger sense of "I haven't lost my bearings, I have a real map of what's going on and I know where to go even though this is confusing". But in F/Personal situations, not so much.

[UDP]

Another matter, perhaps about , but I think it applies to a lot 'types' and people, too.....

Comfort, and the perception of comfort.


hm more about this in a bit.

[NewBorn STAR]

This is the funniest thread ever

[Cuddly McFluffles]

This is the funniest thread ever

Your sociotype entry makes me laugh. I have a probably-EIE friend from high school who once described herself as an emotionwhore.

-----------------------

I find myself wondering about the whole "Si = comfort" idea. I had a friend who was into bondage; he apparently found pain to be pleasurable (and told me as much once). If it's still the pursuit of a "pleasurable" sensation, is it any less Si?

[NewBorn STAR]

Your sociotype entry makes me laugh. I have a probably-EIE friend from high school who once described herself as an emotionwhore.

-----------------------

I find myself wondering about the whole "Si = comfort" idea. I had a friend who was into bondage; he apparently found pain to be pleasurable (and told me as much once). If it's still the pursuit of a "pleasurable" sensation, is it any less Si?

Gimme your emotions on a plate. Let me be a pig

[force my hand]

Working with the premise that productivity is connected with peace, a significant factor is how reality matches up to your expectations. This includes both the process and result. Screwing up both can be distressing, while effecting both seamlessly is extremely gratifying. Either case either refutes or confirms your assessment of proficiency and ability.

In terms of other issues raised in the thread, the crux is how you are defining your productivity. A career, hobby, relationship, family, social circle/organization, etc. - obviously, the most satisfied individual strikes a healthy balance between all. I like to think this gets better with age and experience.

[Cyrano]

You don't have to be productive for people to want you around... Actually, productivity doesn't mean anything at times, as in, people won't value it "just because" you do. I've noticed this in Si-creatives, and I usually try to convince them that people don't really notice or really care at times (even most of the time) about your productivity as much as they think they do. A chill pill is in order, extra strength. Also, you're a human being, not a human doing, if you want to get into the Christian spiritual aspect of all this.

But Lobo, Productivity is what we do. We wouldn't be much good if we weren't fixin something.

[Gilly]

If UDP is LSE, then I am the Mad Hatter

[Lobo]

Working with the premise that productivity is connected with peace, a significant factor is how reality matches up to your expectations. This includes both the process and result. Screwing up both can be distressing, while effecting both seamlessly is extremely gratifying. Either case either refutes or confirms your assessment of proficiency and ability.

In terms of other issues raised in the thread, the crux is how you are defining your productivity. A career, hobby, relationship, family, social circle/organization, etc. - obviously, the most satisfied individual strikes a healthy balance between all. I like to think this gets better with age and experience.

I think that for Te-ego types in general it's hard to be at peace in an environment where there is no productivity. Not in that people are working for its own sake, but that something is being done about those things that they see as a problem or being less than their personal expectations.

You don't have to be productive for people to want you around... Actually, productivity doesn't mean anything at times, as in, people won't value it "just because" you do. I've noticed this in Si-creatives, and I usually try to convince them that people don't really notice or really care at times (even most of the time) about your productivity as much as they think they do. A chill pill is in order, extra strength. Also, you're a human being, not a human doing, if you want to get into the Christian spiritual aspect of all this.

But Lobo, Productivity is what we do. We wouldn't be much good if we weren't fixin something.

I don't measure people based on their productivity, or how good they are at doing something. Even with regards to myself, people comment on how talented I can be at something, but I just don't see it as important. Someone being productive or good at fixing something is interesting, but it won't make me be attracted to them on a psychological level, and it definitely won't be the reason why I hang out with them or like them. LSEs in particular like to comment on how good they do things and their skills, and I guess it's because that's how they sell themselves to people. It's funny because I'm completely oblivious to how much it means to them at times and they take it as if I'm not interested in them. One of my SLI friends told me once that the reason he's my friend is because of how I can help him and all of the talents he can learn from me. He was shocked at the intense negative reaction I had towards that, lol.

[Park]

If UDP is LSE, then I am the Mad Hatter

You're a lot more mad than that.

[Gilly]

HURRRRRR

[moredhel]

I struggle to relax also. It's a difficult balance restful and productive, I find I achieve it by being loose with my internal view of productivity. For example I find watching movies or tv series as productive as it is absorbing new content, having new things to critique and analyse and even having new ammunition for when i'm forced to use my role function.
I rationalise other things like this as well including playing games being productive for my asperations at games development, socialising being productive in maintaining potentialy useful and rewarding friendships etc.

I also find activites like cleaning and reading can be both productive and restful in the more traditional sense and exercies as well if you are loose with your defnition of restful. In reality I'm happiest working with other people on some sort of productive group project though but I think thats just the dom.

Often being alone and having free time is very frustrating because I want to be doing something productive but I also want to relax and enjoy my free time, I found this situation is better when my free time is as the result of a sick day or some other holiday where there is no guilt associated with a lack of productivity.
The situation for me is improved when other areas of my life are going well such as being in a happy relationship, which seems to mitigate some of the need for improvement and productivity during my spare time. Although this may be because I see the time spent on the relationship as productive and so the reduced amount of free time is mine to relax *shrugs*.

[Beautiful sky]

I struggle to relax also. It's a difficult balance restful and productive, I find I achieve it by being loose with my internal view of productivity. For example I find watching movies or tv series as productive as it is absorbing new content, having new things to critique and analyse and even having new ammunition for when i'm forced to use my role function.
I rationalise other things like this as well including playing games being productive for my asperations at games development, socialising being productive in maintaining potentialy useful and rewarding friendships etc.

I also find activites like cleaning and reading can be both productive and restful in the more traditional sense and exercies as well if you are loose with your defnition of restful. In reality I'm happiest working with other people on some sort of productive group project though but I think thats just the dom.

Often being alone and having free time is very frustrating because I want to be doing something productive but I also want to relax and enjoy my free time, I found this situation is better when my free time is as the result of a sick day or some other holiday where there is no guilt associated with a lack of productivity.
The situation for me is improved when other areas of my life are going well such as being in a happy relationship, which seems to mitigate some of the need for improvement and productivity during my spare time. Although this may be because I see the time spent on the relationship as productive and so the reduced amount of free time is mine to relax *shrugs*.

I find that that's particularly harder for Te subtypes like Matt (my bf). I suggest (because I am an Fi subtype and because I can give efficient advice) that when you're not in a relationship and you want to relax, for you to take time for yourself and do something on your own as if you would in an actual relationship. I often advise that you take a walk (sometimes this is an introverted activity because it gives me time to reminisce; it certainly allows me to get in touch with an LSEs feelings and talk about something with them that has nothing to do with work); remembering to shut off the list of things that you tend to review in your mind will help you shut that off and help you either focus on how things/nature that surrounds you makes you feel or might even try to indulge in a lazy day by going for a stroll and stopping for some dessert and ice cream (tea is fully acceptable too ). Any savoring of something slowly gets you to live in the moment and relax. I often stop by and smell flowers on my walks. I think in observation of me doing this, sometimes, relaxed Matt. Sometimes, he's too rushed and feels like I could do without taking time for me to connect with my internal sensations, but I let him know that this is important in keeping a zen like inner balance. Massages are also very helpful and so is yoga; I do yoga almost regularly.

You would normally take a young lady out on a date and that helps you to relax, while you're single, you can take yourself out on a date, that will also allow you to learn to live and do things for yourself and build confidence and security.

When I help people with their finances, I often tell them to "pay yourself first;" I also advise people "help themselves first" as well; this is because you and your health are most important and you should take care of you. It only makes good sense, I think. Reaching success has it's rewards, but doing it under stress doesn't help create any sort of balance. Having both good inner and external balance in life will help you lead a successful and fulfilling life. This in many ways is encompassed in having good relationships as well as varied things to do, for an LSE.

EII are naturally very zen like, comfortable, and relaxed; that's often been a major contribution to my relationship.

[UDP]

EII are naturally very zen like, comfortable, and relaxed; that's often been a major contribution to my relationship.

Some are. Definitely not all of them...

[UDP]

[QUOTE=moredhel;790864Often being alone and having free time is very frustrating because I want to be doing something productive but I also want to relax and enjoy my free time, I found this situation is better when my free time is as the result of a sick day or some other holiday where there is no guilt associated with a lack of productivity.
The situation for me is improved when other areas of my life are going well such as being in a happy relationship, which seems to mitigate some of the need for improvement and productivity during my spare time. Although this may be because I see the time spent on the relationship as productive and so the reduced amount of free time is mine to relax *shrugs*.[/QUOTE]
I relate to that.


I think a big help for me has been developing longer term plans and longer term goals. I've been trying to do that for maybe 5 years to be honest, but it wasn't until I was around people who were good at it that it started to change.

I think being Te dominant, and maybe even Si creative, there is a lot of pressure to "do things now", and if there isn't a sense of being useful right now, how can there possibly be anything good coming down the road? That's not entirely true, and has to be made into acceptance.

I'm a lot more comfortable when I know I have a 'plan', if you will. That way I don't have to feel like I'm scrambling to keep myself 'pleasantly occupied'. For me it's been accepting that I want to have very large or even 'lofty' plans, and that it's both ok and even reasonable to have that, and that it is actually in reality more rewarding for me to be that way -- particularly opposed to becoming overly minutia-obsessed.


Nowadays I think of important things I need to do on longer-term basis, like weekly or even monthly or six months. And I'm alot more guarded against the inclination to micromanage and derive a sort of convoluted pleasure from obsessing about micromanaging immediate results. I've had it where I had percentages (via excel sheets) that tracked my set objectives for the day and what I actually completed. It had its purpose but I don't think it really helped me, it was just some manner of dealing with anxiety or uncertainty ---- such things that ultimately stemmed from not being sure about other things, directions, etc.



I actually feel a lot different from when I first wrote this thread. I think I've come to a fuller maturation in regard to "needs" and "meeting needs" and how that relates to other people. I think there's such a strong inclination for a delta ST to figure out how it relates to others - either by actively seeking power, or an ideology to assert its relations to other people, or by delving into ambivalence or neglect, or other things. But really, the productivity and fulfillment (in my experience), has to do with finding and asserting your own goals that are more or less separate from other people and other things. ANd, like above, ones that aren't only constrained by Te+Si, or, immediate senses of well being and production, perhaps. It's ironic, but true to form for a lot of personal development types of things - the more secure you are with yourself and that you can function independently, or do things by yourself, the more able you can actually become positively interdependent and even give yourself to others, other activities or people.