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Thread: INTjs and Religion

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    Default INTjs and Religion

    Ive only seen a couple refferences regarding INTjs and religion, none were consistent, and I would like to know everyones opion here. And please no bashing of religion or atheism, just state your opinion and why.
    "Knowlege is not very far" - Flaw's Worlds Divide
    "When you're taught through your feelings" Lacuna Coil's Swamped.
    "To see the world in a grain of Sand" - Blake
    "A little non-sense now and then is cherished by the wisest of men"

    INTj, INTJ

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    UDP's Avatar
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    <edited for rambling and not answering the question>
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    i will repeat what i said in the other thread. intjs seem to approach religion in extremes either in favor of or in opposition to

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    i will repeat what i said in the other thread. intjs seem to approach religion in extremes either in favor of or in opposition to
    Thats about what I was expecting.
    "Knowlege is not very far" - Flaw's Worlds Divide
    "When you're taught through your feelings" Lacuna Coil's Swamped.
    "To see the world in a grain of Sand" - Blake
    "A little non-sense now and then is cherished by the wisest of men"

    INTj, INTJ

  5. #5
    Creepy-pokeball

    Default Re: INTjs and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Apex
    Ive only seen a couple refferences regarding INTjs and religion, none were consistent, and I would like to know everyones opion here. And please no bashing of religion or atheism, just state your opinion and why.
    To those that have typed as INTj and INTJ, I have seen no pattern. I have seen a lot of variables. Perhaps Pedro is correct but I cannot confirm that. I would agree that none of them that have typed as said type have done the religious thing "half-assed."

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    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
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    not too sure about other intj's, but i will simply say that i hold the texts of all the major religions to be valid, yet despise religions themselves for their bastardizing effect of the texts.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    I personality don't get the sense of religion. I admit some people may need to believe in or build their life upon something greater than everything but for me, it's just impossible to believe in an intelligent entity or whatever or be guided by any precept of lifestyle from some "books". It's not a criticism, it's just how I see things and I totally respect those who are religious.

    Maybe I am wrong but so far, I don't have any proof to believe the contrary. Thus I believe there may be an afterlife but that doesn't go very far. You won't find me in a religious place !

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    Creepy-

    Default Re: INTjs and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I would agree that none of them that have typed as said type have done the religious thing "half-assed."

    I used to dislike it. All of it. All of philosophy, too: I agreed with no one, and thought everyone was wrong and foolish in their beliefs. Within the last 2 years, I have learned to look beyond by initial disgust with religion and philosophy.

    So now when people ask me about religion, I must be sure that I answer in terms of my context, and not theirs. To be brief, I personally do not endorse religion, and feel strange when I attend religious ceremonies. I respect religion in terms of it being a belief of others, but cannot comply with it because I would be lieing.

    That is the general nature of how I have considered religion in the past.

  9. #9
    Creepy-pokeball

    Default Re: INTjs and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I would agree that none of them that have typed as said type have done the religious thing "half-assed."

    I used to dislike it. All of it. All of philosophy, too: I agreed with no one, and thought everyone was wrong and foolish in their beliefs. Within the last 2 years, I have learned to look beyond by initial disgust with religion and philosophy.

    So now when people ask me about religion, I must be sure that I answer in terms of my context, and not theirs. To be brief, I personally do not endorse religion, and feel strange when I attend religious ceremonies. I respect religion in terms of it being a belief of others, but cannot comply with it because I would be lieing.

    That is the general nature of how I have considered religion in the past.
    haha I knew I liked you. Well, specifically this- "To be brief, I personally do not endorse religion, and feel strange when I attend religious ceremonies. I respect religion in terms of it being a belief of others, but cannot comply with it because I would be lieing."

    Other than feeling similarly, I admire the fact that you are not willing to be glib within yourself. I grow so tired of the glib and meaningless sterility.

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    Other than feeling similarly, I admire the fact that you are not willing to be glib within yourself. I grow so tired of the glib and meaningless sterility.
    The sad thing is I believe I have much more "respect" for Crucifixes than several people who wear them and claim to be followers of religion.


    I attend masses with my stepmother for the sake of courtesy and because it was part of her "dream". She is of a traditional personality type, though she is another story altogether. At least during the homily, the preacher connects things toward modern day things, and in ways that really matter, and is not regurgitating old thoughts.

    old doctrines, and the majority of philosophy (especially western) is something I have a hard time with, though I'm getting better.

    The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them

    The topic of religion branches off into many directions (for me). My a more recent take on this topic is that I question the nature of the differentiation made in general. For instance, why, really, do we seek to differentiate between the existence or non existence of a thing we call "God"

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    Default Re: INTjs and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I grow so tired of the glib and meaningless sterility.
    You need to wait until this happens with the sentiment you are currently expressing. One of the saddest things about humanity is how it devalues that which it has already encountered. It seems like we lose "respect" for that which we know to be of significance simply by our familiarity with it. For example if I worked in a gernade producing factory I would know how dangerous my work is but over time I bet I would fall into a routine that begins to ignore the unchanged precariousness of my position. Not that this property of humanity has any significance in and of itself but it is definitely something to keep in mind when we consider our "approach" towards a particular _.

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    So, assuming everyone who has responded it looks like, at this site anyway, that most are non-religious but not necisarally anti-religious (although some may of been at some time).
    "Knowlege is not very far" - Flaw's Worlds Divide
    "When you're taught through your feelings" Lacuna Coil's Swamped.
    "To see the world in a grain of Sand" - Blake
    "A little non-sense now and then is cherished by the wisest of men"

    INTj, INTJ

  13. #13
    Creepy-pokeball

    Default Re: INTjs and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I grow so tired of the glib and meaningless sterility.
    You need to wait until this happens with the sentiment you are currently expressing. One of the saddest things about humanity is how it devalues that which it has already encountered. It seems like we lose "respect" for that which we know to be of significance simply by our familiarity with it. For example if I worked in a gernade producing factory I would know how dangerous my work is but over time I bet I would fall into a routine that begins to ignore the unchanged precariousness of my position. Not that this property of humanity has any significance in and of itself but it is definitely something to keep in mind when we consider our "approach" towards a particular _.
    I wasnt talking about that, Pedro. Im also aware of that.

  14. #14
    Creepy-pokeball

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP


    The topic of religion branches off into many directions (for me). My a more recent take on this topic is that I question the nature of the differentiation made in general. For instance, why, really, do we seek to differentiate between the existence or non existence of a thing we call "God"
    Awesome question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    For instance, why, really, do we seek to differentiate between the existence or non existence of a thing we call "God"
    My opinion on this, it is foolish seek evidence of the existance or non-existance of God or any kind of higher intelligence that could be considered God/a god. (And Im not talking about aliens with the "higher intelligence").
    To me the person who seeks physical proof of God is just as hopeless as the person who seeks physical proof of the non-existance of God.[/quote]
    "Knowlege is not very far" - Flaw's Worlds Divide
    "When you're taught through your feelings" Lacuna Coil's Swamped.
    "To see the world in a grain of Sand" - Blake
    "A little non-sense now and then is cherished by the wisest of men"

    INTj, INTJ

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    To me the person who seeks physical proof of God is just as hopeless as the person who seeks physical proof of the non-existance of God.
    Perhaps inadvertantly you highlight one of the reasons why I question such (supposed) differentiations.

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    There are supposed, non-physical proofs of the existence of a god.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    To me the person who seeks physical proof of God is just as hopeless as the person who seeks physical proof of the non-existance of God.
    All of this reminds me some of the absurd and funny universe of Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (not the -bad- movie but the books). In one volume, the characters are looking for the last message of god and the answer is ...as interesting as absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    There are supposed, non-physical proofs of the existence of a god.
    Was Kant an INTj?

    We have (somewhat....) similar views. Especially about the Ontological argument.....

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    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    The topic of religion branches off into many directions (for me). My a more recent take on this topic is that I question the nature of the differentiation made in general. For instance, why, really, do we seek to differentiate between the existence or non existence of a thing we call "God"
    the question only makes sense if we take god to be seperate from the self. we seperate god from the self because of the influence that our culture has on our epistemological assumptions, namely the importance of material. if there is no differentiation between self and god the inquiry into god makes more sense and is probably what the authors had in mind when writing about god. what is unfortunate is the religions suffer from the same cultural assumptions of our day and misrepresent their very foundations.

    i wanted to add that the authors did not differentiate between self and god, but instead articulated a difference while maintaining the unity of all things.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    yes

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    kant may well have been entj. i am not certain

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    Want to see a great example of the life of a religious INTj? Look at CS Lewis. Reading just the introduction to "Mere Christianity" shows a lot of familiar characteristics. Foremost is the tendency to be accutely aware of personal bias, the sort of thing I think UDP was talking about as "my context vs theirs."

    I was especially interested to see a documentary on television some time ago comparing and contrasting CS Lewis to Sigmund Freud. The difference is quite remarkable: two highly rational men reaching vastly different conclusions about the underpinnings of humanity and the world at large.

    Ultimately, I think that being INTj has more to do with how we approach religion and less to do with our disposition about religion (which is more determined by personal experience good or ill... and the mass media is not helping religion very much).

    Strangely enough, it seems that INTjs are suceptible to social influence just like everyone else, though not as thoroughly.
    Apollonian
    INTj
    "How absurd men are! They never use the liberties they have, they demand those they do not have. They have freedom of thought, they demand freedom of speech.” - Soren Kierkegaard
    “Five senses; an incurably abstract intellect; a haphazardly selective memory; a set of preconceptions and assumptions so numerous that I can never examine more than a minority of them - never becoming conscious of them all. How much of total reality can such an apparatus let through?” - C. S. Lewis (INTJ)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollonian
    ...and the mass media is not helping religion very much).
    Since when has the mass media helped anything much??? :wink:
    "Knowlege is not very far" - Flaw's Worlds Divide
    "When you're taught through your feelings" Lacuna Coil's Swamped.
    "To see the world in a grain of Sand" - Blake
    "A little non-sense now and then is cherished by the wisest of men"

    INTj, INTJ

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    Soren Kierkegaard, the Danish philosopher, is a very good example of a religious INTj, in spite of the sustained attack upon Christendom, upon the political aspects of it, not the belief in itself. (he had also been educated to become a pastor, though never actually practiced it)

    Just read a little on his biography + works and you'll see what 'm talkin bout ; clear-cut INTj. No doubt.

    Check the main article on wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kierkegaard


    p.s. just like UDP said, "out of courtesy" Kierkegaard followed theology university just because it was the wish of his father on his death bed and felt obligated to fulfill his wish.


    edited to add
    For all Kierkegaard did (or should we say, more thought, than did), it shines trough that "sense of duty" i mentioned

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apex
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    For instance, why, really, do we seek to differentiate between the existence or non existence of a thing we call "God"
    My opinion on this, it is foolish seek evidence of the existance or non-existance of God or any kind of higher intelligence that could be considered God/a god. (And Im not talking about aliens with the "higher intelligence").
    To me the person who seeks physical proof of God is just as hopeless as the person who seeks physical proof of the non-existance of God.
    [/quote]

    Not to mention missing the point. the very concept of faith implies that evidence is just a bit short of proving things either way. it's something that takes place just a bit outside of mechanical-logical reasoning. almost about letting go of a grip on such reasoning and listening to what you hear in its vacuum.

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