The issue of inflation and the central reserve banking system has come up in the peak oil thread. I'm giving this it's own thread, as it is not directly relevant to peak oil.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6773770802849#
Money as Debt
The issue of inflation and the central reserve banking system has come up in the peak oil thread. I'm giving this it's own thread, as it is not directly relevant to peak oil.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6773770802849#
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Chapter 14, Verse 9.
The Bhagavad Gita
Oh no, not this again. Must be the second most debated topic on the internet, next to ******.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Thats beacuse it's also one of the most important issues of our society. You don't have to participate.Originally Posted by FDG
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Chapter 14, Verse 9.
The Bhagavad Gita
Worst of all, it requires a 47:00 time investment to begin discussion
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I'm just putting it out there for who ever is interested. I'm not strapping you to a chair forcing you to watch.Worst of all, it requires a 47:00 time investment to begin discussion
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Chapter 14, Verse 9.
The Bhagavad Gita
It's VERY simple, you don't need 47 minutes of video to explain money.
Is nowadays' money created out of thin air? Yes. End.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
(mental burp... pardon)
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I love the condescension in this community.
You will never understand anything with that attitude? If you are not intrerested, fine with me.Is nowadays' money created out of thin air? Yes. End.
Why are you being so smug? You are indifferent to the material, go away and post in another thread.
EDIT: You too rick.
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Chapter 14, Verse 9.
The Bhagavad Gita
I apologize for wasting your thread space. When I post more than 3 times a day I lose focus and start making jokes. You can get this thread back on track by outlining the issue as you see it. I do not have an opinion on the video or the topic so far.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I'm so smug because I also have spent (wasted) much time discussing those issues. A monetary system has many interesting facets, the cospirational side being the least cogent, imho. There isn't much to understand about money creation, when you understand the basic notions of fiat money, central banking and fractional reserve, you're pretty much done.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I don't get why this topic is so popular on the Internet. If you take a course on monetary policy and you will understand all the issues surrounding this and learn that the system actually works well.
Uhm, I mean, not THAT well. When there's monetary sovereignity, the central bank, in accord with the treasury, can do pretty much what it wants.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
1. MONEY = DEBT
2. DEBT = MONEY
3. If all outstanding debts were to be paid today, there would much less than $0 in circulation tomorrow.
4. The monetary system is obsolete in light of modern knowledge and technology that would allow for the elimination of scarcity. Any scarcity you see around you today is artificial, as the human species and it's technology has the capacity to create abundance in a short amount of time.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Crispy, thank you for the summary.
#3:This seems a little counterintuitive. In the standard macro economics banking example where they explain money multiplication in a bank, it was possible to unwind the whole thing and still end up with the base money that you start with. (See this) The standard macro economics banking example excluded stuff such as stocks, bonds, foreign currency, real estate and much more. Did the video explain which factors are involved that caused debt not to be repayable?
#4:We still need natural resources to produce stuff and those aren't unlimited. If this was true, we would be able to have the economy produce unlimited amount of guns and butter. (See production-possibility frontier) This would mean that a country does not have to make any tradeoffs.
My understanding of economics is limited to the micro and macro economics and monetary policy only. I understand there are other economics school of thoughts out there. There must be some Econ major on our forum that could give us more clarity.
Last edited by Ozz; 04-12-2011 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Fixed a minor grammar error
Agree.
Crispy, the problem with your system is it completely ignores the economic calculation debate.
We all know what's to be done; voice your opinion in an eloquently written letter to your congressmen. Other than that, do nothing or don't think about it, or better yet, stop people from discussing it on the internet so your letter gets more attention!
Ha, the funny thing about this system is that the richer you get, the poorer someone else must be getting. Kind of a motivation killer.
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Yea but the poorer someone else gets, the richer you become. It all works out.
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That chart neglects interest. Every time the bank loans money to someone poor it creates debt (money) out of nothing by making the poor person pay interest back. Every time a rich person deposits into the bank the bank promises to repay them interest, creating money (debt) to do so. Although theoretically the poor person is repaying some of the debt owned to the rich person, it's never enough to overcome the debt created by the fractional reserve policies + the interest involved in each transaction.
Here's some very clear and concise explanations of what I'm talking about:
Money is Debt:
How Interest keeps us in everlasting debt:
Why we currently use a system that continually increases debt:
The establishment forces us to use the wrong natural resources. In the case of energy, we don't even need to use oil anymore, but the true scarcity (oil scarcity is not entirely artificial) allows companies to make huge profits off of oil consumption. We could run the world on wind/solar/geothermal/wavepower but it would be too efficient for companies to make major gohda off of their consumers. Here is info regarding the wide array of alternative energies that are being fought off by oil companies:
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
This debate seems to revolve around how to rationally distribute resources. This issue is addressed as follow:
How are Resources Distributed Equitably?
Distribution of goods and services without the use of money or tokens would be accomplished by establishing distribution centers. These centers would be similar to expositions, where the advantages of new products are explained and demonstrated. Exhibition centers will display what is new and available and will constantly be updated. If you visited Yellowstone National Park, you could check out a camera or camcorder, use it, and then return it to another distribution center or drop-off, eliminating storage and maintenance.
Besides computerized centers throughout the communities where products would eventually be displayed, there will be 3-D, flat-screen imaging in each home. If you desire an item, an order can be placed and the item automatically delivered directly to your place of residence without a price tag, servitude, or debt of any kind. This includes whatever people need such as housing, clothing, education, health care, entertainment, etc.
Raw materials for products can be transported directly to manufacturing facilities by automated transportation "sequences" using boats, monorails, mag-lev trains, pipelines, and pneumatic tubes. An automated, computerized inventory system would integrate the distribution centers and manufacturing facilities, coordinating production to meet demand. In this way, a balanced-load economy can be maintained. Shortages, over-runs, and waste could be eliminated. Eventually goods and services will be mass-produced in such abundance as to be too cheap to monitor.
Today there is more than 75% waste in the production of material goods. In a resource-based economy, all waste would be recycled. A priority would be designing things of the highest quality so that products would last longer and require little or no service. Many electronic parts will use plug-in components for convenient repair. There would be no planned obsolescence just to sell the latest designs or fashions. This would eliminate considerable waste.
Energy can also be conserved in the loading and unloading of materials in transport systems. For instance, instead of unloading separate containers, an entire freight section will be disengaged from a cargo ship and replaced with another so that the ship does not waste time at the dock during loading and unloading. The same method can be applied to trains and planes. There will be one compartment for passengers and baggage, which can be disengaged from the plane or train as a new section is loaded, so that the vehicle is more effective and conserves time and energy. All transportation will be operated electrically.
In a cybernated society, people will have more time for individual interests such as going back to school, working in the arts and sciences, traveling, etc. There will be many choices for exploring, studying, enjoying, and participation.
Professions that are non contributing, such as banking, insurance, advertising, marketing, sales, the military, lawyers, stockbrokers, etc., will evolve into activities that are more useful.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Post your own thoughts. Whats the point of effectively reposting someone else's comment? Yeah I know, I'm guilty too, but it's still annoying.
It does work well, for the interests of the very few.I don't get why this topic is so popular on the Internet. If you take a course on monetary policy and you will understand all the issues surrounding this and learn that the system actually works well.
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Chapter 14, Verse 9.
The Bhagavad Gita
Okay, well, let's be clear: if you truly think that only rich people have deposits and zero debt, perhaps you need to reconsider your position - often "poor" people are good savers, and paradoxically their savings are abstractly used to fuel debt-ridden companies which are a source of money for a certain "parasitical" sect of upper-classers. Conversely, oftentimes rich people are heavily indebted through their limited liability companies, since their connections allow them to get their hands on easy credit; thus, they don't need to risk their own capital.Every time the bank loans money to someone poor it creates debt (money) out of nothing by making the poor person pay interest back. Every time a rich person deposits into the bank the bank promises to repay them interest, creating money (debt) to do so.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Well everyone has debt, except the banking cartels at the very top. I was just giving typical examples (The rich are more likely to deposit and the poor are more likely to take loans) of common day banking policies in action. It's actually a separate point than why the debt must continually rise but its related. (Interest and how it attempts to create something from nothing ie Magic.)
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Why you say that everyone has debt? That's definitely not true. I know a good amount of people that have zero debt.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Every country owes money to every other country (Everyone has debt). It's the same as all the people in the world owing money to themselves. It's a big game and if we threw all money/jewelery/gold/seashells etc. in the ocean nothing real would have been changed. It's time we stop playing it and start thinking about how to make the earth sustainable, not just for a small group of elites, or a few countries, but sustainable for all the world's people.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Countries aren't private entities - if I move to another country with a very low public debt, I am not required to keep a part of the italian debt burden. It simply cannot be conflated. Plus, countries don't owe money to "other countries" - they usually owe money to citizens of other countries; thus if everything were to be zeroed, savings would be erased.
I'm not completely sure. I mean, more people owe me money than I owe others, so actually if such a thing would happen, I'd definitely lose. And it's not about "money" - I would have lost much free time doing work for no particular reason. Sure thing though, anyone with a mortgage would gladly consider such solution as optimal.It's a big game and if we threw all money/jewelery/gold/seashells etc. in the ocean nothing real would have been changed
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
The current system works great for people who aren't in debt, and there are many who are in fact not in debt, but the fact that there is more outstanding debt than money means that there will always be a form of servitude inherent to the system where there will be debtors essentially enslaved by creditors because it is impossible for the greater number of people to get out of debt. From an individual's perspective it can be easy to say tough shit for those who are in debt, but if you understand, you should see that that is a narrow view. It's all really unnecessary, and the system only really benefits the wealthy few who can sustain them self on interest since the alternative could allow the same living conditions without requiring a job.
It doesn't prevent unequal distribution of wealth. Its purpose is to cushion the economy from the negative side effects of the business cycle.
Yes I know a lot of people are not in individual debt (I'm not... yet) but Everyone is significantly affected by the rising global debt (except again, the cartels we are ultimately indebted to).
If this were to happen not only would you win, but we (the Earth as a singular "organism") would win. You need not fret over losing money for everything you need is accessible to you. The work you did for no particular reason has already occurred, and the past can not yet be changed. Of course if you really liked the job you wouldn't mind the time lost and if you didn't, you'd be glad for it to have ended. In today's society you are not safe, for homeless/desperate people exist, and they may have to rob you in order to survive. You and everyone else will win in that the homeless/desperate will be no more and a safe society is put in it's place.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
The issue with money is that it makes people emotionally angry too much. Economists try to turn it into this rational system ho-bag thing but we all know that it boils down to how emotionally aligned up you are with others, or not. The CEO of a company is getting off a lot better then the workers.
Capitalism isn't socialsim but it's essentially doing the same thing: trying to socially control others, and emotionally manipulate certain social classes of people and not others. Based on two main critieras: How smart you are and where you come from and what your blood line is. Of course a lot of racism and genocide comes to play here.
It evokes a sense of bitterness and unfairness for most people when they see how much money Adam Sandler gets for merely pretending in a movie. He's faking his whole life away for so much more money then you are, because he's a Jew- and that's all he can think about it. He doesn't actually work. He's playing sock puppets with his hands and doing everything he wants to, but because he's a Jew and knows how to manipulate your feelings, he gets everything that he wants.
The capitalists here on this forum instead of well, being capitalists, they're trying to force middle-class socialists to be something different, instead of acting like Adam Sandler and trying to be 'funny' or entertaining and assuaging people's emotional fears (what human beings *really* want), they're instead trying to directly change somebody's perspective on something that will never be changed- because people are allowed to be stubborn and wrong and you have to know that if you want to control them. Instead of trying to change hearts, y'all try to change brains, which is just really stupid actually. You think the reverse is true, but it's not.
If you really want to make the Jews less stuck up, at least know how the game is really played.
I guess I'm doing the same thing. I can't just 'be gay' I have to gay rant about it. But this is the middle class mentality in a nutshell: Trying to be argumentative about people instead of following your own way and emotionally controlling people from a distance like a Adam Sandler jew. I just don't see the point anymore. I want to instead act like I'm a Hollywood ****** that's better than everybody else and ride the emotional and spiritual waves of life instead of trying to force people to agree with my perceptions and to argue with them and say 'they're stupid' on online message boards while Adam Sandler gets $50,000 for raising his pinky and shit. I need to be able to do that too, because we're both from planet earth.
Because I deserve that. I have to know that I deserve that and I'm worth that and they're not better than me, and I see right through their bloody asses, just like they see through mine. And I really wish the same for everybody and that everybody can get there, even though everybody's journey will inevitably be unique, I hope we all can get there, because nothing is more off-putting then narcissism and human arrogance. So my real role in life, as a writer, is an uplifter. You can do it guys! They want the middle-class to self-destruct into nothingness and have us kill each other. Let's stop the insanity and work together, not against each other.
Last edited by Hot Scalding Gayser; 04-14-2011 at 06:54 AM.
Yea but the poorer someone else gets, the richer you become. It all works out.
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I read it, and I have searched the FAQ to the best of my ability, but the issue has not been addressed at all. Merely ignored, whether deliberately or due to the ignorance of the author(s) I am not certain. One thing that is talked about is abolishing money as a medium of exchange. Yet there are unintended consequences that the architects of the Zeitgeist/Venus Project did not consider; namely that scarcity is real (there is a limited number of resources to be used in the manufacture of goods), and that money evolves, in part, due to the necessity of conferring priority to certain goods over other goods in the scheme of producing and distributing.
The "resource-based economy" is plagued with the same issues as any other command economy, namely that the future is inherently uncertain and that the central planner(s) can not account for innovation and shifts in demand when lacking a price mechanism to provide this critical value in economic calculation. Money does not convey value, since it is clear that different people value the same things differently and gradate their utility accordingly. Money conveys information so that individual agents can judge how to best ration the resources at their disposal; to determine the most economical course of action.
In the market, the future is still just as uncertain. It is the uncertainty that drives innovation and, by consequence, net investment of capital goods. Only the future will decide whether an investment made today will yield a bountiful return or reveal it as a malinvestment. The point is that the entrepreneur can only know of success or failure if there is an indicator in place to determine his success or failure. Profit would, naturally, indicate marginal degrees of success, whereas loss would uncover the misallocation of invested resources and promptly dissolve unproductive uses of capital, so that it may be re-invested and begin the journey anew.
In a socialist, or command economy, without these indicators there is no rational way to allocate resources. The central planner(s) will have to resort to a subpar rationing system that results only in surpluses and shortages, and leave the average person to suffer with no direction on how to best satisfy their needs. Sure, socialist economies persist today and have in the past, but only because they permit some sort of price mechanism to persist. That, or they make use of the price mechanisms in less socialized economies to calculate their costs. Alternatively, people barter and find other ways of facilitating exchange in the absence of officially sanctioned mediums.
Your system sucks, bro.
Last edited by Capitalist Pig; 04-17-2011 at 10:16 AM.
To me the Zeitgeist movement seems like just another utopia with a flawed understanding of human nature. Initial implementation of these ideas will require totalitarian control such as during and after the Bolshevik Revolution. An ideology will be established declaring the Zeitgeist goal to be the "final goal" of the "Revolution," with intermediate steps defined. Totalitarian control will be declared essential until the final stage of the Resource-based economy is reached (it is never reached). People will be brainwashed into the Resource-based Economy ideology and will be taught that they must work hard to build a "bright future" for coming generations. Dissenters will be silenced and destroyed. The society will degrade into a stagnant authoritarian regime with limited personal freedom, and finally leaders will be forced to allow increasing amounts of market-based economic activities to revitalize the economy. After it's all over, historians will look back and see that a resource-based economy was actually never achieved, and that the state was simply "just another totalitarian regime," albeit one that used high-tech electronics to control and monitor people. People were forcibly hooked into the system, every home had to have "flat-screen 3-D monitors," and people who refused to be integrated into the system were "removed" or otherwise "managed." This is like 1984 all over again.
More time and choices for gaming, entertainment, porn, cyber-romance, drugs, vegging, eating crap, and letting their bodies go to pot. The body (mind, soul) needs stress and privations to maintain proper form."In a cybernated society, people will have more time for individual interests such as going back to school, working in the arts and sciences, traveling, etc. There will be many choices for exploring, studying, enjoying, and participation."
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
This is a bad thing? Serious question.
When I wake up in the morning with an idea for a joke that I want to tell in the forum, it's almost always something that I will regret saying. Still, I can never resist the temptation to say it anyway.
This joke is based on grains of truth.
...Now that I've said that, I can't bring myself to make the joke I was going to make, so I will just tell the grains of truth all by themselves.
I haven't collected my tax refund from the IRS yet. I just didn't get around to filling out the tax return because I was too busy dealing with a bunch of different disasters.
So I was thinking about this. The IRS is too cheap to even bother sending me a tax return form directly this year. But yet they were somehow able to afford to send me a letter informing me that they weren't going to be sending out tax return forms to everybody anymore. It must have been sent in a letter - I forget - because I can't imagine how else I would have read it, unless maybe I read it online somewhere.
At the same time, they can afford to send even more of the military to go out to even more foreign countries and bomb them.
I wondered what would happen if I just didn't bother to fill out a tax return to the IRS this year. I already know they owe me a refund. I just wouldn't bother to collect the refund from them. In some twisted, convoluted, self-sacrificing way, I feel like I'm actually rebelling against the IRS by not collecting my refund. Their brains will fry as they struggle to decide what to do about the fact that I was too lazy to claim my refund yet. Should they... send me a letter? But they couldn't afford a stamp and envelope to send me my tax return forms a few months ago!
Perhaps they should just accept my tax refund as a free gift to them, to prop up their budget. But that would be like bribing a public official. So perhaps I will get arrested for that.
Or maybe I will get charged a fee for the service of letting them keep my money somewhere else other than in my own bank account. Or a fee for sending their own collection agents after the IRS on my behalf. Who knows what they will decide to do.
The 'joke' was that I'm doing my part to prevent economic collapse by giving a free donation to the IRS. Of course I will probably get around to collecting it one of these days, so it might be more like a loan. But it really does feel like a rebellion, even though I lose. Just one more nuisance they have to deal with.
Anyway. Back to serious discussion. (I can't watch the 47 minute video, as I'm on dialup and it would be about 470 minutes or longer.)
Depends on your point of view. I would call it bad because it doesn't promote health or happiness. Ultimately, though, what is good is whatever promotes the survival of homo sapiens. If a drugged, depressed, mindless existence without stresses and reality checks will do the trick, then let's go for it. But I suspect that periods of decadence like this will always be temporary because they sow the seeds of their own destruction (through declining reproduction rates, increasing healthcare costs, increasing welfare, or just plain apathy).
My point, though, was that it was naive to suppose that the masses would use their "free time" for such lofty things as "going back to school, working in the arts and sciences, traveling, exploring, studying, enjoying, and participation." When life becomes too easy and stimulations too great, people lose their sense of purpose and creativity.
Btw, we already have these opportunities today and use them only marginally. 20th century experience shows that after a few generations of technological progress young people stop going into science (except for immigrants and foreign students who have the motivation to master difficult subjects) and tend to pursue easier, feel-good degrees and occupations.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I thought people often took drugs to escape from the stresses and realities of their existence.If a drugged, depressed, mindless existence without stresses and reality checks will do the trick, then let's go for it
You really think purpose and creativity is inherent in having some banal job you don't like doing? Very, very few get the privilege of doing a job they enjoy, or that has any real significance on an individual level.My point, though, was that it was naive to suppose that the masses would use their "free time" for such lofty things as "going back to school, working in the arts and sciences, traveling, exploring, studying, enjoying, and participation." When life becomes too easy and stimulations too great, people lose their sense of purpose and creativity.
I agree what Crispy proposes is a bit of a stretch. What I can't see, is this idea that mind numbing banailty, selling away your time, making inhuman corporations money, is somehow something that creates a meaningful existence. Well I certaintly don't get the fuzzys everytime I help Mc'Donalds make money.
I think there is no such thing as lasting happiness or justice, meaning or purpose. Existence in this pool is by nature sufferable. Human beings must fight for resources and the result is an inescapable inequality. Thoese with the resources, coerce others to work for them. Such, society no, almost all human interaction is built on this cohesion. Someone has to build the roads, or work the checkout. Money is the necessary enticement, as everything they want and need is held at some sort of monatary ransom. Thus money is the only means to get stuff done in a large society.
Last edited by Bluenoir; 04-17-2011 at 02:41 PM.
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Chapter 14, Verse 9.
The Bhagavad Gita
Rick, you are precisely correct. Like a con man who frequently changes identity to evade detection, communists continually seek out ways of reinventing themselves. Though Crispy, and other proponents, would probably object to the characterization of the Zeigeist Movement/Venus Project as communist, the essential components are all there with a whole new euphemistic language to avoid the obvious conflation.
Last edited by Capitalist Pig; 04-17-2011 at 03:19 PM.
Intrinsically motivated people will always be disadvantaged in a system built around extrinsic motivations.
Thankfully, in developed countries, there always exists the opportunity to "pursue your passions". I think that's somewhat of a silver lining, provided you know what you want to do, and what carrots you can give up to get there.
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