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Thread: interpretation of quadra transitions

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    Default interpretation of quadra transitions

    Quadra Transitions (Starting from Delta to Alpha and then back to Delta from Alpha)
    The way the following is supposed to work is that as society starts to lose its ability to function it goes from Delta to Gamma to Beta to Alpha in order to function again. If society is in Gamma or Beta and thus functional by such and it solves all or most of the problems that resulted in its inception, then society will move backward (Beta to Gamma or Gamma to Delta). If society is in Alpha and thus functional by such and it solves all or most of the problems that resulted in its inception, then society will move to Delta and not Beta.

    Delta

    Ideal society would be at Delta. When Si, Ne, Fi, and Te are the successful hyper-focus of society we have a self-regulating minimalist-government socialistic utopia. Unfortunately I can't really think of any society that has achieved any kind of Delta state other than maybe Switzerland.

    Delta → Everyone has a symbiotic relationship that allows them to have a productive, exploratory, enjoyable, and freedom filled experience with society. A sense of purpose is innate.

    Now take that Delta society and create some chaos, just a little, say something like a natural disaster or something related to the housing bust. The first instinct of the current state of society is to try to preserve its state. Delta will think up new ideas in how to deal with the problems.

    But let's say more chaos keeps happening. Some people most hurt by the chaos are now loosing their sense of symbiotic relationships. So now the people start to question whether or not Delta society can deal with their problems and start losing a sense of purpose of unity. In an effort to combat this and keep society unified, society starts to become more Ni/Se over Si/Ne. People start looking at trends and ways to predict what will happen and prevent as much future chaos from taking place by being vigilant, active, and aware of what is going on as much as they can be, giving them back a sense of control and purpose of unity in their lives while not having to dissolve their relationships.



    Gamma

    Less ideal society would be at Gamma. In this state society values most the ability to successfully act decisively to overcome allowing the problems and mistakes of the past to emerge. I can't think of better examples for Gamma than Feudalistic Japan or European Feudalism or the Holy Roman Empire.

    Gamma → Society now no longer has a balanced symbiotic relationship with its people. Because of the nature of prediction, those that are more successful in predicting and dealing with future problems will have more economic power and freedom over society. They will also be the one's forming the majority of the better symbiotic relationships, while the rest of society will accept getting the 'short end of the stick' because they are still theoretically better off than if still in the poorly functional Delta society. Society is still unified as a whole, but the people on the low end of the totem pole are only a little better off since they have the worst relationships to society with very little freedom and very little control over their lives.

    Now take that Gamma society and stir in some shit, a little chaos here, and a little chaos there. The people that have gotten the 'short end of the stick' now find that those in power are unable to protect and care for them. So the relationships of society now divide up into smaller groups that make alliances or oppose one another in the hopes that they can claim enough control and power to give them back a sense of protection and care.


    Beta

    An even lesser ideal society would be at Beta. In this state society is scattered and warmongering. The symbiotic relationships that were center to Delta and influential to allowing Gamma society to create a system of power and control are completely gone or nearly so. The American Revolution was a good example of a Beta society (13 colonies) that made an alliance in order to overcome the British aggressions.

    Beta → The relationships of the people are destroyed. People form new groups in order to form new beneficial relationships. To do this they must also fight off the opposing groups that wish to submit them to their own ideas of what the relationships of society should encompass and be. At best this gives people back a sense of unity and purpose with themselves and their fellow human beings, giving their life struggles a sense of passion, meaning, and worth. At worst, it nurtures an overly-aggressive society that harms itself by recreating the same problems its manifestation was supposed to solve. If the latter happens, then Beta society will slowly, in a narcissistic manner, over-encumber itself with aggression to outside forces until the spirit of the people that upheld this society will no longer be able to see any good coming from their state. Some examples of this would be Hitler's downfall in World War II and the current state of American society. As this happens, people become disillusioned and tired and transition to Alpha.


    Alpha

    The ideal problem solving state of society would be at Alpha. Alpha unfortunately becomes the state of society when all else has failed and people need to come up with new ideas on how to structure the relationships and focus of society in a consistent and thought-out manner. When Ne, Si, Ti, and Fe are an extreme focus of society, shit must be really bad. Normally when society is in a Delta, Gamma, or Beta state Alpha is thought to be a constant nuisance or threat that wants to undermine society or stands to shake the foundations what is established and works. For society to now support Alpha thinking must mean people are very desperate.

    Alpha → Here in Alpha there are no unifying relationships to society, just like in beta. But the focus of vigilance and aggression is now deemed useless and society seeks ways to form smaller groups that seek peace between each other and allow and foster the growth of trial and error in new ideas and approaches to organizing and operating society. All devalued functions are seen with minimalist intentions, always making sure never to overdo them when they are deemed temporarily necessary. Ancient Greece would have been a decent example of a more overall Alpha society. And in Greek history it is shown that the Greek Alpha society takes the most creative form of democracy to its highest potential compared to the other quadric societies.

    If however Alpha society is able to find ways to eliminate all of the problems that the other societies encountered, then everything will transition back to Delta in the hopes that people can stay in their idyllic Delta society and not repeat the cycle.

    If these problems are never completely solved, then Alpha society will remain in its state until extinction or complete destruction by an outside influence or society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    When Ne, Si, Ti, and Fe are an extreme focus of society, shit must be really bad. Normally when society is in a Delta, Gamma, or Beta state Alpha is thought to be a constant nuisance or threat that wants to undermine society or stands to shake the foundations what is established and works. For society to now support Alpha thinking must mean people are very desperate.
    Yep. Everyone really fears those SEIs...

    The quadra progression is supposed to be more of a cycle than a hierarchy. Sure, Delta phase is probably the most idyllic and will be liked the most be Deltas (25% of people), Alphas and Gammas (50% of people) will find it mediocre and Betas (25% of people) will hate it. Same for each other type of society.

    Also, just curious, what's so horrible about an extreme focus on as compared to an extreme focus on ?

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    This description is horribly biased.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    This description is horribly biased.
    I wasn't going to be this blunt, but... yeah. Bias overwhelming.

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    lol, hexxus what type are you?

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    I's guess Delta, based on the glorification of Delta society. Although, oddly enough, he seems to bash Alphas as much as or more than Betas, so Gamma could also be possible.

    Or more likely, this description is based on a very skewed understanding of the quadras, tells us nothing, and he could be any type at all.

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    I didn't know Switzerland is an Utopia. Things one learns on here, oh boy. And yea, Holy Roman empire reeks of beta to me - Ti to maximum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igxfl View Post
    what's so horrible about an extreme focus on
    The kids are alright..



    Also, Alpha wasn't ancient Greece. More like Athens specifically. Only realized as such after Socrates died (for a time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    Also, Alpha wasn't ancient Greece. More like Athens specifically. Only realized as such after Socrates died (for a time).
    Well Socrates didn't know nothing so alpha it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    The kids are alright..



    Also, Alpha wasn't ancient Greece. More like Athens specifically. Only realized as such after Socrates died (for a time).
    I would be fascinated to see their history with Sparta from a socionic view. Didn't they have issues?
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    Yep. Wars, etc.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War

    I would probably call Sparta a Beta state and Athens an Alpha one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igxfl View Post
    Thanks.

    I would probably call Sparta a Beta state and Athens an Alpha one.
    Same.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igxfl View Post
    I would probably call Sparta a Beta state and Athens an Alpha one.
    That's correct. Dorians were actually a warlike Roman tribe. Calling folk who ravaged and destroyed almost all of Greek culture Greek is funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igxfl View Post
    Yep. Everyone really fears those SEIs...

    The quadra progression is supposed to be more of a cycle than a hierarchy. Sure, Delta phase is probably the most idyllic and will be liked the most be Deltas (25% of people), Alphas and Gammas (50% of people) will find it mediocre and Betas (25% of people) will hate it. Same for each other type of society.

    Also, just curious, what's so horrible about an extreme focus on as compared to an extreme focus on ?
    You're reading into too much of what I wrote. It has been common practice in history for those that suggest ideas against the status quo to be killed or done away with. History is most often Gamma influenced. Alpha quadra being Fi and Se devaluing ends up being a greater threat to society.

    I never said anything was horrible about Ti+Ne+Si+Fe or Fi+Ne+Si+Te. In my opinion, for your own consideration, showing hostility where I have shown none to return suggests intellectual insecurities with this discussion. There is no need for that. I'm not going to lie to you, but give you a reasonably thought-out account of my correlations of history to socionics. I deserve some degree of respect in return for being willing to share my thoughts with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    lol, hexxus what type are you?
    Whichever one doesn't skew the perception of my ideas or person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igxfl View Post
    I's guess Delta, based on the glorification of Delta society. Although, oddly enough, he seems to bash Alphas as much as or more than Betas, so Gamma could also be possible.

    Or more likely, this description is based on a very skewed understanding of the quadras, tells us nothing, and he could be any type at all.
    Whether or not people agree on the extremes of different societies, this progression I have carefully analyzed throughout history. It would be ignorant to dismiss it on account that I will have to one way or another supplant some form of bias just to get my idea across.

    It should also be noted that ideas typically cascade down to the other quadric societies from Alpha, as suggested in other threads.

    Also my views on quadras are not skewed, but rather have summarized different stages of civilization to the different quadras. In other words, it is theoretically possible to have a country that is outwardly Alpha to the rest of the world and predominantly Gamma in the culture. Japan is one example I can think of. The typical socionics view would only look at culture.

    The USA for instance is outwardly beta and always has been since its creation. However, it has been influenced greatly from the start by Alpha ideas and later after the American Revolution it transitioned back to Gamma and was enforced culturally as a Gamma nation. Abraham Lincoln was pressing Gamma issues when he decided to engage in Civil War. And his success kept the country together.

    We can even look at this forum over the past year to get an idea of what I'm referring to. The outward appearance and culture of the forum used to be Beta, but its become heavily Alpha influenced and developing a diverse culture. However, due to the history of the forum, it still exudes Beta qualities as shown from the discriminatory and hostile consideration of many threads and ideas. Rather than you see me as someone to have a friendly exchange of ideas with I am seen as a threat to an accepted standard of socionics theory. How peculiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I didn't know Switzerland is an Utopia. Things one learns on here, oh boy. And yea, Holy Roman empire reeks of beta to me - Ti to maximum.
    Switzerland is one of the most economically prosperous nations in the world right now, and has arguably been for more than a decade. It has a strong focus on productivity and keeping traditions alive (Te,Fi) while structuring a healthy lifestyle (Si,Ne).

    If your argument is based on a high use of Ti, then I disagree about the Holy Roman Empire. Its whole time period is a collection of its attempts to keep it whole and not fall apart. It was more in the throes of collapse and transitioning to Beta from Gamma, in my opinion. Claiming a high use of Ti element does little to convince in my model or in a purely cultural model, given the shaky foundations of IM RL manifestation; can you explain other reasons why you feel it was Beta? I am open to reconsideration if you are well educated on the subject and can give me good reasons why I am mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    The kids are alright..

    Also, Alpha wasn't ancient Greece. More like Athens specifically. Only realized as such after Socrates died (for a time).
    That's why I said democracy. I was referring to Athens specifically and only the time period from which they were considered to be democratic, since they were the only democracy in Ancient Greece. I believe this period ended when Alexander conquered Greece. This really shouldn't be a point of contention, even if I was mistaken in assuming all of Greece when I was referring to Athens.
    Last edited by DividedsGhost; 04-11-2011 at 11:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    This description is horribly biased.
    This is not a description. This is a synthesis from history of quadra progressions. The descriptions are meant to give you an idea of the concept. I will not answer you again if your ignorance is so great you can not even be bothered to give me an explanation why. Your recent Beta attitude on this forum is abhorrent. I've shown you no such disrespect in discussion to warrant such an attitude. There is no reason to be hostile. If you can't respect that, know you aren't welcome in this discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    I never said anything was horrible about Ti+Ne+Si+Fe or Fi+Ne+Si+Te.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    When Ne, Si, Ti, and Fe are an extreme focus of society, shit must be really bad.
    Apparently, "shit must be really bad" has an entirely different meaning from "horrible." My apologies. So, tell us, why must "shit be really bad" when are a major focus of society?

    Edit: Just saw this--
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    Your recent Beta attitude on this forum is abhorrent.
    Is a Beta attitude particularly abhorrent? What's wrong with it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    Switzerland is one of the most economically prosperous nations in the world right now, and has arguably been for more than a decade. It has a strong focus on productivity and keeping traditions alive (Te,Fi) while structuring a healthy lifestyle (Si,Ne)..
    Blahblah and blah. You telling me you put gamma folk in delta, pure hypothetically of course, because it is an Utopia which it isn't ? Go back to school android.

    Yea figure out why I wrote what I wrote, miss Universe.

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    you're interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    This is not a description. This is a synthesis from history of quadra progressions. The descriptions are meant to give you an idea of the concept. I will not answer you again if your ignorance is so great you can not even be bothered to give me an explanation why. Your recent Beta attitude on this forum is abhorrent. I've shown you no such disrespect in discussion to warrant such an attitude. There is no reason to be hostile. If you can't respect that, know you aren't welcome in this discussion.
    I remember the days when Pirate was a mad beta hater, said everything beta contributed to society is bad, blah blah blah.

    Now he's one of us.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    you're interesting.
    thank you, I have to admit I hear that often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Blahblah and blah. You telling me you put gamma folk in delta, pure hypothetically of course, because it is an Utopia which it isn't ? Go back to school android.

    Yea figure out why I wrote what I wrote, miss Universe.
    You're a hostile, vengeful fellow. I don't know what you expect from this theory that you feel you haven't been given or cheated out of, but socionics doesn't owe you anything. You're on ignore...I also never said it was a utopia. I was referring to the perfect Delta state being Utopian in nature, whereas the other quadras are in a state of unrest by their very natures. Switzerland is used as a possible example of a Delta society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igxfl View Post
    Apparently, "shit must be really bad" has an entirely different meaning from "horrible." My apologies. So, tell us, why must "shit be really bad" when are a major focus of society?

    Edit: Just saw this--

    Is a Beta attitude particularly abhorrent? What's wrong with it?
    That's meant to be that society has failed in every possible way to the point that the very foundations of philosophy and the role of society and government is put into question. Since the past failed, greater thought must now precede all action. Everything is open to question and restructure and society is built as democratically as possible to achieve these ends.

    The fact that I'm here to have a friendly open discussion of another viewpoint and it is assumed somehow that I am automatically a threat to socionics and that I don't know what I am talking about. It's senseless.

    This might have been better in alternative theories, but it didn't seem like a good place at the time.



    Edit: Nevermind, screw it. I don't want to discuss this anymore. Someone please lock or delete this thread unless someone else sees some kind of purpose in keeping it alive.
    Last edited by DividedsGhost; 04-12-2011 at 02:40 AM.

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    OP: I can't tell if you're serious or you're trolling.

    'Sup bro.

    You're on ignore...I also never said it was a utopia. I was referring to the perfect Delta state being Utopian in nature, whereas the other quadras are in a state of unrest by their very natures. Switzerland is used as a possible example of a Delta society.
    He attacked your ego, not you.

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    I enjoyed this thread

    Most people are whiners and complainers, nevermind them. They were probably just in pissy moods to begin with.

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    Delta: Socialist economy. ENFps have the country enslaved to welfare programs and ESTjs regulate the society into a police state. Resources are allocated by the government & not by prices, the economy becomes unadaptable; scarcities abound in some areas while others bask in the wastage of gross excess. Payment is now provided by the government; there's a diminished incentive to meet consumer needs, so the quality of service also diminishes. Research and development halts. Price caps create increased demand which makes services scarce. Productive output diminishes since workers and companies lack competitive incentive. Ultimately everyone ends up poor and unable to get the services they need; and those services are totally subquality.
    Eventually the Betas rise up and overthrow the Delta government, put their heads on sticks and reclaim their rightful position in society - as its leaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    Switzerland is one of the most economically prosperous nations in the world right now, and has arguably been for more than a decade. It has a strong focus on productivity and keeping traditions alive (Te,Fi) while structuring a healthy lifestyle (Si,Ne).
    You can say the same about ex Soviet Union at its peak.

    If your argument is based on a high use of Ti, then I disagree about the Holy Roman Empire. Its whole time period is a collection of its attempts to keep it whole and not fall apart.
    Yes, correct.

    Organization of the Roman Imperial Legion

    Contubernium: (tent group) consisted of 8 men.

    Centuria: (century) was made up of 10 contubernium with a total of 80 men commanded by a centurion

    Cohorts: (cohort) included 6 centuriae or a total of 480 fighting men, not including officers. In addition the first cohort was double strength but with only 5 centuriae instead of the normal 6.

    Legio: (Legion) consisted of 10 cohorts.
    Additionally each Legion had a 120 man Alae (cavalry unit) called the Eques Legionis permanently attached to it possibly to be used as scouts and messengers.

    Therefore the total fighting strength of a Legion:
    The First Cohort totaling 800 men (5 double-strength centuries with 160 men each) 9 Cohors (with 6 centuries at 80 men each) for a total 4,320, and an additional 120 man cavalry for a grand total of 5,240 men not including all the officers.

    The basic designation of the 10 cohors was the same throughout all the Legions. They were arranged in battle so that the strongest and weakest units would be mixed throughout the formation maximizing moral and effectiveness

    Cohort I: Was made up of the elite troops. Its direct commander was the Primus Pilus, the highest ranking and most respected of all the Centurions.

    Cohort II: Consisted of some of the weaker or newest troops.

    Cohort III: No special designation for this unit.

    Cohort IV: Another of the four weak cohorts.

    Cohort V: Again, no special designation.

    Cohort VI: Made up of "The Finest of the Young Men".

    Cohort VII: One of the four weak cohorts and a likely place to find trainees and raw recruits.

    Cohort VIII: Contained "The Selected Troops".

    Cohort IX: One of the four weak cohorts and a likely place to find trainees and raw recruits.

    Cohort X: Made up of "The Good Troops".
    Roman Legionary Ranks

    The following list indicates ranks from highest command to lowest common soldier:
    Senior Officers of the Roman Legion

    Legatus Legionis: The overall Legionary commander. This post was generally appointed by the emperor, was a former Tribune and held command for 3 or 4 years, although could serve for a much longer period. In a province with only one legion, the Legatus was also the provincial governor and in provinces with multiple legions, each legion has a Legatus and the provincial governor has overall command of them all.

    Tribunus Laticlavius: Named for the broad striped toga worn by men of senatorial rank. This tribune was appointed by the Emperor or the Senate. Though generally quite young and less experienced than the Tribuni Angusticlavii, he served as second in command of the legion, behind the Legate.

    Praefectus Castrorum: The camp Prefect. Generally he was a long serving veteran who had been promoted through the ranks of the centurions and was 3rd in overall command.

    Tribuni Angusticlavii: Each legion had 5 military tribunes of equestrian (knight) class citizens. They were in many cases career officers and served many of the important administrative tasks of the Legion, but still served in a full tactical command function during engagements.

    Primus Pilus: The "First File" was the commanding centurion of the first cohort and the senior centurion of the entire Legion. Service in this position also allowed entry into the equestrian social class upon retirement.
    Mid-Level Officers in the Roman Legion

    Centurions: Each Legion had 59 or 60 centurions, one to command each centuria of the 10 cohorts. They were the backbone of the professional army and were the career soldiers who ran the day to day life of the soldiers as well as issuing commands in the field. They were generally moved up from the ranks, but in some cases could be direct appointments from the Emperor or other higher ranking officials. The cohorts were ranked from the First to the Tenth and the Centuria within each cohort ranked from 1 to 6, with only 5 Centuria in the First Cohort (For a total of 59 Centuria and the Primus Pilus). The Centuria that each Centurion commanded was a direct reflection of his rank. (Command of the First Centuria of the First Cohort was the highest and the 6th Centuria of the 10th Cohort was the lowest). The 5 Centurions of the First Cohort were called the Primi Ordines, and included the Primus Pilus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    You're a hostile, vengeful fellow. I don't know what you expect from this theory that you feel you haven't been given or cheated out of, but socionics doesn't owe you anything. You're on ignore..
    I'm sooo vengeful, beware. And to answer your question theory gave me a lot, types. Thanks though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    Delta: Socialist economy. ENFps have the country enslaved to welfare programs and ESTjs regulate the society into a police state. Resources are allocated by the government & not by prices, the economy becomes unadaptable; scarcities abound in some areas while others bask in the wastage of gross excess. Payment is now provided by the government; there's a diminished incentive to meet consumer needs, so the quality of service also diminishes. Research and development halts. Price caps create increased demand which makes services scarce. Productive output diminishes since workers and companies lack competitive incentive. Ultimately everyone ends up poor and unable to get the services they need; and those services are totally subquality.
    Eventually the Betas rise up and overthrow the Delta government, put their heads on sticks and reclaim their rightful position in society - as its leaders.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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