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Thread: All Identical Twins have the Same Type?

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    Default All Identical Twins have the Same Type?

    Woah. Hardcore topic. Yes I'm starting it, I searched and didn't find any other thread on 16types already about this.

    Do all identical twins have the same type?

    Now, we all know there have been loads of 'tests', how twins can grow up with different personalities, different interests, different behaviors, preferences for things.................... BUT NONE OF THAT IS RELATED TO TYPE. This goes into the definition of socionics, the study of intertype relationships. People of the same personality type can look vastly different:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.socionics.us/intro.shtml
    Although types often display similar values, life strategies, general behavior, and facial expressions, such traits such as IQ, musical talent, sports abilities, charisma, "personal power," etc. are little related to type. A review of how socionists have typed famous people will demonstrate this. No type is inherently "predisposed" for success or failure in life. A common error of socionics enthusiasts is to try to relate non-socionic traits to socionic types.

    In addition, socionics does not view type structure as being so rigid that a person can change little in life. One's positive or negative thinking patterns, overall outlook on life, and emotional health are not tied to type and are quite flexible. Socionic type is one of the things — along with inborn physiological traits — that does not change, even if outward behavior, emotional states, and attitudes do. Socionic type describes psychic mechanisms so "deep" that they are difficult to gain a full awareness of, much less modify in some way (but then, why would you want to modify them??).

    Intertype relations

    The basic difference between socionics and other typologies is socionics' theory of intertype relations. Socionics is not a typology of personality, but a typology of perceptual traits that define one's relationships with others. Hence, we should not be surprised to see significant personality differences between individuals of the same socionic type — as long as we see that there is a similar pattern of intertype relations.

    Intertype relations describe the nature of interaction and information interchange between two people at a close psychological distance by describing how partners' psychic functions interrelate. These socionic relationships range from very difficult and potentially harmful to one's self-realization to very beneficial and pleasant to the psyche. Intertype relations most influence one's informal relationships with others, where one chooses friends based on pleasure and mutual benefit (cooperation).
    I like these couple paragraphs, because it describes TYPE as an inborn physiological thing... which would directly imply that of course, identical twins have the same personality type. Same genetics, same brain, etc.

    The 2nd part that I underlined and bolded also acknowledges that identical twins' personalities can become vastly different, despite being the same type.

    Moreover, if it's assumed that your base way of interacting with others, your type, is influenced mostly by your brain's predisposition... certainly twins would influence each other's growth, assuming their type is the same, in exactly the style you'd expect IDENTICAL relations to grow.

    It'd be impossible for identical twins to be exactly alike. As Identicals, one would assume the teacher, one would assume the student, and they'd have a tendency to avoid each other in group settings, not just because they'd probably see their twin all the time, but because their identical twin doesn't have anything psychologically stimulating to provide. Avoidance in group settings means they naturally interact with different people, have a tendency to develop different friendships, and naturally grow their personalities in different directions.

    So another question to ask is, of course identical twins can have DIFFERENT 'personalities' and interests, but how often do they actually have the SAME 'personalities'? Based upon their types being both Identicals.

    Thoughts about any of this???

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    the two pairs of identical twins that i can remember did seem to have the same type.

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    there has been lots of research on this topic. both by socionics and mbti.

    too bad I can't remember most of it :-d

    But I do remember that identical twins can have different types.

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    I think I know one identical twin pair where one is ESE and the other maybe LSI. But I have to check that again to be sure.

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    I think this may tragically break Maritsas spinal socionics.

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    In conversation, the twins are clearly distinct persons, with distinct likes and dislikes. Their preferences in food, clothing color, etc. differ. Some of their clothes are altered by their seamstress so that they have two separate necklines in order to emphasize their individuality. They will usually have separate meals, but sometimes will share a single meal for the sake of convenience (e.g., each takes a bite of the same hamburger). Abigail is better at mathematics and Brittany is better at writing.

    The stereotype of identical twins is that they are exactly alike: they look alike, they dress in matching outfits, they share the same likes and disklikes. Parents of identical twins know differently, however. Despite their shared genetic component, identical multiples are unique individuals. Though they do share similarities, they also have many differences.




    They faced some difficulties because of their conjoined nature. Since they had to study together, they needed to choose a common career path. Ladan wanted to be a lawyer, while Laleh wished to become a journalist; in the end, they settled on Ladan's choice. They studied law for four years at Tehran University. Most other personal decisions also had to meet each other's approval. For these and other reasons, they had wanted to be separated since they were children. Laleh hoped that she could then move to Tehran, the capital city of Iran, to study journalism, while her sister wanted to continue with graduate studies in law and then move to Shiraz.
    In addition, the sisters had different hobbies. While Laleh liked to, among other things, play computer games, Ladan preferred computer programming. Ladan also described her sister as more introverted and herself quite talkative.

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    I'm pretty sure this is not true. Though I don't know any identical twins super-well, I think I know an EIE/ESE pair. A study was mentioned in another thread that conclusively showed they aren't generally the same.

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    i imagine that among sets of identical twins, there is actually social pressure to emphasize individual differences (or even create them out of nowhere), because people have an inherent wish to be seen as unique individuals.

    it's all a red herring, though. nobody is claiming there are no differences between identical twins.

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    I have seen a few claim sociotype is innate. How can this be if identical twins who share identical DNA, can have different sociotypes?
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotropic View Post
    I have seen a few claim sociotype is innate. How can this be if identical twins who share identical DNA, can have different sociotypes?
    It is not innate and no identical twins are not the same type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    It is not innate and no identical twins are not the same type.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=35291

    Yes, it may be difficult to determine the eventual type of a child, but not because of them changing as that would negate the idea of information metabolism being an intrinsic part of your make-up, which then kills off socionics. Type is integral, some very serious change would be required to rewire your type, more along the lines of stroke and trauma possibly.
    I'm not saying they are right. However, people seem to be claiming it is.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotropic View Post
    I'm not saying they are right. However, people seem to be claiming it is.
    You ever typed a a baby such and such type to regret your decision after, say, 10 yrs ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You ever typed a a baby such and such type to regret your decision after, say, 10 yrs ?
    Typing a baby would be hard, but that dosen't negate the idea of type being innate. You just don't have enough information to work with. I have no opinion either way, as I'm not even convinced sociotypes actually exist to begin with.

    However why should I take your claim it's not innate, when the prevailing opinion so far has been otherwise. Who represents the "mainstream" socionics opinion here?
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotropic View Post
    Typing a baby would be hard, but that dosen't negate the idea of type being innate.
    Yes, it is hard. People can't even decide working on an adult, having their photos, testimony, etc.

    However why should I take your claim it's not innate, when the prevailing opinoion so far has been otherwise. Who represents the "mainstream" socionics opinion here?
    Definitely not me and you don't have to take anything I say as the word of god, I'm not socionics guru like Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotropic View Post
    I have seen a few claim sociotype is innate. How can this be if identical twins who share identical DNA, can have different sociotypes?
    You catch on quick Mr. Hunt!

    Yeah.. it's always been obvious sociotype is not completely inborn. Is anything ever completely inborn? Even diseases are turned on and off by the environment. You do realize physical growth is shaped by the environment. The only person on this forum who I think believes it's inborn is Maritsa. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some level of correlation. Even facial features between twins have perceptible differences, though. So I dont think this kills the physical basis of VI either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I'm not socionics guru like Maritsa.
    A rabbit hole I'm definitely not going down. Treating socionics as a hypothetical game only, is as far as I'm willing to take this stuff at the moment.

    You catch on quick Mr. Hunt!
    Faster than you anyway.

    Is anything ever completely inborn
    DNA, gender, and there is a case for sexuality being inborn too. So yes.
    Last edited by Bluenoir; 04-10-2011 at 11:36 AM.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotropic View Post
    A rabbit hole I'm definitely not going down.Treating socionics as a hypothetical game only, is as far as I'm willing to take this stuff at the moment.
    That's great, have fun.

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    In my personal experience, no, all identical twins do not have the same type. This would seem to be what some would expect given a strict correlation between genetics and the cognitive processes grouped together in socionics, but I'm skeptical that the two are so directly intertwined. What I would argue for as a possibility of how human cognition develops is probably closest to Noam Chomsky's theory of universal grammar. In simple terms, I tend to view all IEs as hardwired on a visceral level and that personality type is something of a formative development. Basic aptitudes will certainly be the result of genetic determination, but further solidification into a particular type depends on numerous externalities and the subject's adaptive reactions towards or against them. Eventually this forms basic attitudes reinforced by training, habituation, and vicarious sources (the general atmosphere and specific contents of the subject's experience). The immediate conclusions to be drawn from this is that certain basic IE strengths predominate, but are further differentiated and refined by the context of an individual's formative years. Weak evidence for this can be gleaned from the phenomena of type shifting and how rare it is for someone to go from suspecting they are, say ENTp, then go to ISFj (but hey it's happened!). It's much more common to change to types that share relative strengths or attitudes with the old one, such as sticking to the same club or temperament, which I tend to view as resulting from the interplay between more finely developed aspects of one's personality and the less differentiated parts of the psyche.

    Generally speaking from premises, socionics posits IEs as the fundamental categories of received and generable stimuli of human experience/cognition/whatever. Further speculation on the model will determine whether or not the foregoing hypothesis is amenable. That is to say, some make the claims that valued IEs are personally accessible to any given type, according to functional strength, but that non-valued IEs are merely interpreted in terms salient to the established values. There's nothing necessarily contradictory between my theory and that one, but it would require certain caveats, such as once a person reaches some threshold of individuation, IEs which are not complementary to the accepted or championed attitude become relativized and suppressed. However, these kinds of ad hoc patches would require some further steps, such as positing a physical mechanism for this kind of ossification of personality or simply supporting value-based relativism when it comes to cognitive processing.

    I don't know. I'm just spitballing here.
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    My take: if there is a dichotomy which is strongly influenced by genetics, identical twins will generally share share such dichotomy (perhaps E-I, or temperament). Any dichotomy which is strongly evironmental won't necessarily be shared. I mostly agree with munenori's post - and perhaps wonder if those basic attitudes he's speaking about might be identified by EJ-IJ-IP-EP temperament.
    On the other hand, I know two pairs of identical twins, and they clearly pertain to the same sociotype. Two is an extremely small number, so I can't derive any conclusion.
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    On the other hand, I know two pairs of identical twins, and they clearly pertain to the same sociotype. Two is an extremely small number, so I can't derive any conclusion.
    if your typings are reliable it's already enough to pretty much disprove the notion that identical twinship doesn't affect type at all, i.e. that type is completely random between identical twins. the chance of two consecutive pairs of identicals under a random draw is 1/256.

    since i've had the same experience, between us both the tally rises to 1/65535.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    Yeah.. it's always been obvious sociotype is not completely inborn. Is anything ever completely inborn? Even diseases are turned on and off by the environment. You do realize physical growth is shaped by the environment. The only person on this forum who I think believes it's inborn is Maritsa. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some level of correlation. Even facial features between twins have perceptible differences, though. So I dont think this kills the physical basis of VI either.
    This. If the twins go and do everything together (especially at a younger age) there is more likely chance they will end up the same or very similar type. If they were separated at birth there is more likely chance their types will be independent of each other. Even in the womb the child develops according to what it expects the environment to be like. Take the example of the Dutch Hunger Winter, where the fetus believes the environment is harsh because the mother is scarcely fed during pregnancy and as a result the child is more prone to obesity: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-ag..._b_373157.html
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    if identical twins can be different types, one implication would be that VI is pretty much conclusively debunked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    if identical twins can be different types, one implication would be that VI is pretty much conclusively debunked.
    Well, what does VI look for? I'm not too good at it, but so far the things that I find really usable are not really morphological ... eye movements, gestures, demeanor, affect, etc. (I.e., VI from video or IRL is better for that.)

    Do you put much stock in VI?

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    Identical twins VI the same, therefore they all have the same supersocion traits (including socionics type).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Identical twins VI the same, therefore they all have the same supersocion traits (including socionics type).
    Well, thanks for establishing a straightforwardly falsifiable thesis?
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    I do see type as inborn, but to me it is a framework for an unpopular thing I'll call "the soul." Two twins, two souls. They could have the same sociotype, or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I do see type as inborn, but to me it is a framework for an unpopular thing I'll call "the soul." Two twins, two souls. They could have the same sociotype, or not.
    Hey Golden can you extract your soul from your body and then type it ? It bugs till this day - one soul, one body equal two things. Then your soul is one type and your body is another - how can you live like this ? Doesn't it bother you ?

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    I only heard about one identical twin pair where one claimed she is an IEE, another an IEI. So both intuition leading types. I never met them in person to verify their self-typings, however.

    Even though their genes are same, the conditions identical twins have been exposed to can be different, starting from very simple things such as position in mother's womb. If type can be affected by environment or may be is wholly determined by environmental factors then it is quite possible for identical twins to have different sociotype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    Even though their genes are same, the conditions identical twins have been exposed to can be different, starting from very simple things such as position in mother's womb.
    Chromosomes, that's right. I doubt everyone is born with only 22 pairs of chromosomes. I mean, look at me, I have a dick to prove it.

    If type can be affected by environment or may be is wholly determined by environmental factors then it is quite possible for identical twins to have different sociotype.
    It is, we're not living in jars are we ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Hey Golden can you extract your soul from your body and then type it ? It bugs till this day - one soul, one body equal two things. Then your soul is one type and your body is another - how can you live like this ? Doesn't it bother you ?


    I was awaiting your comments, Absurd.

    I'd say the soul is bigger than the type. It's like soul up top, moving down through a funnel into a body.

    And yeah, I'm really bothered by it! When my soul extraction happens (death), ask me if I feel any better.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I was awaiting your comments, Absurd.
    Well, I'll be damned.

    I'd say the soul is bigger than the type. It's like soul up top, moving down through a funnel into a body.
    Bigger like 12 or 34 inches than type ? I know why one is bothered by it now, it needs room body/type can't provide. In other words a bigger vessel is needed, like an elephant.

    And yeah, I'm really bothered by it! When my soul extraction happens (death), ask me if I feel any better.


    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Well, I'll be damned.
    Don't be damned. Be happy! I know you need me to post about art and soul and other wacky stuff, at least until a certain user comes back and you can refocus on someone else's shenanigans.

    Bigger like 12 or 34 inches than type ? I know why one is bothered by it now, it needs room body/type can't provide. In other words a bigger vessel is needed, like an elephant.
    "Bigger" like I can only use the word "bigger" but since the body is physical and the soul is not, you'd have to use or something to visualize it. (I put it this way just to garble up Socionics for ya.)

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    Damn...Conjoined Conflictor twins...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    This. If the twins go and do everything together (especially at a younger age) there is more likely chance they will end up the same or very similar type. If they were separated at birth there is more likely chance their types will be independent of each other. Even in the womb the child develops according to what it expects the environment to be like. Take the example of the Dutch Hunger Winter, where the fetus believes the environment is harsh because the mother is scarcely fed during pregnancy and as a result the child is more prone to obesity: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-ag..._b_373157.html
    Agree. More stuff on epigenetics etc:

    The Claim: Identical Twins Have Identical DNA

    “When we started this study, people were expecting that only epigenetics would differ greatly between twins,” said Jan Dumanski, a professor of genetics at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and an author of the study. “But what we found are changes on the genetic level, the DNA sequence itself.”

    ...Not known, however, is whether these changes in identical twins occur at the embryonic level, as the twins age or both.
    Identical Twins' DNA Varies

    Research in 2005 found that identical twins differ in how their genes express themselves. Now scientists have learned that all identical twins may actually differ genetically from their partners to some degree.

    ...when it comes to the genetics of identical twins, unexpectedly "there in fact are tiny differences and that they are relatively common," said researcher Jan Dumanski, a molecular geneticist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.
    A different study here
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    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    if identical twins can be different types, one implication would be that VI is pretty much conclusively debunked.
    I'm an identical twin. We are different types, and we dont look like carbon copies of each other.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Trevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I'm an identical twin. We are different types, and we dont look like carbon copies of each other.
    OMG, Vanessa Carlton is your identical twin sister??

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    I'm an identical twin. We are different types, and we dont look like carbon copies of each other.
    got proof of any of those statements? there is reason to believe you are biased on this topic:

    among sets of identical twins, there is actually social pressure to emphasize individual differences (or even create them out of nowhere), because people have an inherent wish to be seen as unique individuals.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Trevor View Post
    OMG, Vanessa Carlton is your identical twin sister??
    LOL... actually Vanessa Carlton looks more like me than my twin sister does.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    the twins can be and can't be the same type 1 of 16, but they definitely always will have the same under type 1 of 24

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